Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
I recall some standards require a warning label at each power entry point something to the effect that there are more than one power entry for this product. And I think that the rating label at a given power entry point is just for that particular entry point. Don't ask me where I got all that from, my old brain cannot see that far. Scott On 7/1/2014 10:15 PM, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote: The standard reads for each supply . I was assuming this was referring/allowing for multiple concurrent supplies on the same machine. You think it was referring to different options for a single supply? For example ratings for 1 single phase 60Hz supply or 1 single phase 50Hz supply or 1 3 phase supply? My first thought before reading the standard was to put everything required on one nameplate only including only the primary power supply ratings located adjacent the primary power input. A secondary rating plate would go adjacent the second power input with only the supply ratings on it. Duplicating the serial number and CE mark seemed wrong to me at first but after thinking about it I guess it would be OK. I could not find anything regarding whether or not multiple CE marks were OK for the same product. -Dave -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 12:54 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources In message f3d590e5d0f24f56b4539e9d93d57...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com , dated Tue, 1 Jul 2014, Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com writes: Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by some distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power supplies needs to be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies? Or only the rating for the supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the nameplate (each nameplate would have the rating for one supply)? Seems like the former. It appears that the standard does not consider the case of multiple supplies in this clause (if at all). So you have to consider what to do and document your decision in the safety assessment document. If you can put everything about both supplies on both nameplates, you could hardly be criticized. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
In message 5c52112599464b5a87311098bd480...@bl2pr08mb052.namprd08.prod.outlook.com , dated Wed, 2 Jul 2014, Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com writes: The standard reads for each supply . I was assuming this was referring/allowing for multiple concurrent supplies on the same machine. You think it was referring to different options for a single supply? For example ratings for 1 single phase 60Hz supply or 1 single phase 50Hz supply or 1 3 phase supply? Yes, because different options for a single supply is a far more common occurrence. but I agree that it could also mean 'more than one connection to a supply source'. My first thought before reading the standard was to put everything required on one nameplate only including only the primary power supply ratings located adjacent the primary power input. A secondary rating plate would go adjacent the second power input with only the supply ratings on it. Duplicating the serial number and CE mark seemed wrong to me at first but after thinking about it I guess it would be OK. I could not find anything regarding whether or not multiple CE marks were OK for the same product. If a standard doesn't prohibit something, you can do it. It's a bit more complicated for the CE mark, because it isn't controlled by a standard but by a Directive. But the same applies: I don't recall any ban on multiple CE marks. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
Dave 60204 provides further guidance in section 5 and states “It is recommended that, where practicable, the electrical equipment of the machine is connected to a single incoming supply.” Why do you need two supplies? The other thing to remember is that the requirement is to comply with the EHSRs in Annex 1, and not necessarily with any specific standard. If you’re considering putting market specific wording on the machines, are you going to be shipping directly into those countries from outside the EU? If not, you should make sure that destination country of use is clearly marked. Regards Charlie From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: 01 July 2014 23:26 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources Related to this, EN 60204-1:2006 16.4 states “A nameplate giving the following information shall be attached to the enclosure adjacent to each incoming supply: – name or trade mark of supplier; – certification mark, when required; – serial number, where applicable; – rated voltage, number of phases and frequency (if a.c.), and full-load current for each supply; – short-circuit rating of the equipment; – main document number (see IEC 62023).” Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by some distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power supplies needs to be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies? Or only the rating for the supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the nameplate (each nameplate would have the rating for one supply)? Seems like the former. thanks -Dave From: Nyffenegger, Dave Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 8:50 AM To: Anthony Thomson; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Multiple power sources Sounds like I may need to compromise and make some labels with minimal text in just a few languages referring to the documentation and use the appropriate label for where the product is being installed. Since these systems are customized and built to order we be able to determine ahead of time which language(s) are needed. Thanks -Dave From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 4:35 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources Hi Dave, Often 'one size' does not 'fit all' and you have to customise or configure products according customer requirements or destination market. It's never ideal because it carries engineering, manufacturing/supply, configuration management and inventory overheads, but sometimes its the best and/or only way. You may (and should) get away with limited language versions of the Declaration of Conformity but textual safety information either attached to equipment or contained within manuals MUST be in the local language(s) of the point of use. Just my opinion, Tony. Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 at 8:19 PM From: Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.commailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Multiple power sources Hi folks, This question is in regards to fulfilling the language requirements in the EU for CE for large light industrial equipment subject to the Machinery Directive. EN 60950-1:2006 1.7.9 Isolation of multiple power sources states Where there is more than one connection supplying HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES or HAZARDOUS ENERGY LEVELS to equipment, a prominent marking, located close to the entry point provided for a SERVICE PERSON to gain access to the hazardous parts, shall be provided to indicate which disconnect device or devices isolate the equipment completely and which disconnect devices can be used to isolate each section of the equipment. EN 60950-1:2006 3.4.11 Multiple power sources states Where a unit receives power from more than one source, there shall be a prominent marking at each disconnect device giving adequate instructions for the removal of all power from the unit. The product in question has two power sources/disconnects. My assumption is that simply slapping some ISO 8001, 8002, and ISO 7134 pictogram labels at each of the disconnects and documenting the details in the service manual in the appropriate language is not sufficient. Therefore some descriptive text in the appropriate language needs to be present at each disconnect to satisfy the requirements. Depending on what that is, what size, and how much space is available it may be possible to put the instructions in all required languages on each unit at each disconnect or we may need to put only appropriate language(s) for the country we are shipping the unit to which would then have to be done per unit as applicable. I'm wondering if anyone has any creative examples/references/suggestions for fulfilling these requirements in a simple manner while also meeting the requirement of having all text be in one of the official
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
The product uses a primary 125A 208V 3 phase drop. The products are built/configured to order for each customer and shipped directly to the customer in the EU. There are a lot of options with the biggest one highly scalable. An additional drop is used on a small percentage of systems to power that highly scalable option where it is built larger than what the primary drop can supply. It’s not cost effective to upsize the primary drop, either for all units or as needed. I think I’ll just put an additional plate at the second power entry with only the electrical ratings, put the required labeling about multiple disconnects at each supply entry, and put the appropriate installation\disconnect instruction detail in the manual. -Dave From: Charlie Blackham [mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 3:14 AM To: Nyffenegger, Dave; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Multiple power sources Dave 60204 provides further guidance in section 5 and states “It is recommended that, where practicable, the electrical equipment of the machine is connected to a single incoming supply.” Why do you need two supplies? The other thing to remember is that the requirement is to comply with the EHSRs in Annex 1, and not necessarily with any specific standard. If you’re considering putting market specific wording on the machines, are you going to be shipping directly into those countries from outside the EU? If not, you should make sure that destination country of use is clearly marked. Regards Charlie From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: 01 July 2014 23:26 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources Related to this, EN 60204-1:2006 16.4 states “A nameplate giving the following information shall be attached to the enclosure adjacent to each incoming supply: – name or trade mark of supplier; – certification mark, when required; – serial number, where applicable; – rated voltage, number of phases and frequency (if a.c.), and full-load current for each supply; – short-circuit rating of the equipment; – main document number (see IEC 62023).” Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by some distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power supplies needs to be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies? Or only the rating for the supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the nameplate (each nameplate would have the rating for one supply)? Seems like the former. thanks -Dave From: Nyffenegger, Dave Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 8:50 AM To: Anthony Thomson; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Multiple power sources Sounds like I may need to compromise and make some labels with minimal text in just a few languages referring to the documentation and use the appropriate label for where the product is being installed. Since these systems are customized and built to order we be able to determine ahead of time which language(s) are needed. Thanks -Dave From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 4:35 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources Hi Dave, Often 'one size' does not 'fit all' and you have to customise or configure products according customer requirements or destination market. It's never ideal because it carries engineering, manufacturing/supply, configuration management and inventory overheads, but sometimes its the best and/or only way. You may (and should) get away with limited language versions of the Declaration of Conformity but textual safety information either attached to equipment or contained within manuals MUST be in the local language(s) of the point of use. Just my opinion, Tony. Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 at 8:19 PM From: Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.commailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Multiple power sources Hi folks, This question is in regards to fulfilling the language requirements in the EU for CE for large light industrial equipment subject to the Machinery Directive. EN 60950-1:2006 1.7.9 Isolation of multiple power sources states Where there is more than one connection supplying HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES or HAZARDOUS ENERGY LEVELS to equipment, a prominent marking, located close to the entry point provided for a SERVICE PERSON to gain access to the hazardous parts, shall be provided to indicate which disconnect device or devices isolate the equipment completely and which disconnect devices can be used to isolate each section of the equipment. EN 60950-1:2006 3.4.11 Multiple power sources states Where a unit receives power from more than one source, there shall be a prominent marking at each disconnect device giving adequate instructions for the removal of all power from
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
In message 5a54236fdf1041d08021b1d9d55ad...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com , dated Wed, 2 Jul 2014, Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com writes: I think I’ll just put an additional plate at the second power entry with only the electrical ratings, put the required labeling about multiple disconnects at each supply entry, and put the appropriate installation\disconnect instruction detail in the manual. Write up what you decided and why in the safety assessment document. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
Related to this, EN 60204-1:2006 16.4 states “A nameplate giving the following information shall be attached to the enclosure adjacent to each incoming supply: – name or trade mark of supplier; – certification mark, when required; – serial number, where applicable; – rated voltage, number of phases and frequency (if a.c.), and full-load current for each supply; – short-circuit rating of the equipment; – main document number (see IEC 62023).” Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by some distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power supplies needs to be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies? Or only the rating for the supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the nameplate (each nameplate would have the rating for one supply)? Seems like the former. thanks -Dave From: Nyffenegger, Dave Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 8:50 AM To: Anthony Thomson; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Multiple power sources Sounds like I may need to compromise and make some labels with minimal text in just a few languages referring to the documentation and use the appropriate label for where the product is being installed. Since these systems are customized and built to order we be able to determine ahead of time which language(s) are needed. Thanks -Dave From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 4:35 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources Hi Dave, Often 'one size' does not 'fit all' and you have to customise or configure products according customer requirements or destination market. It's never ideal because it carries engineering, manufacturing/supply, configuration management and inventory overheads, but sometimes its the best and/or only way. You may (and should) get away with limited language versions of the Declaration of Conformity but textual safety information either attached to equipment or contained within manuals MUST be in the local language(s) of the point of use. Just my opinion, Tony. Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 at 8:19 PM From: Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.commailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Multiple power sources Hi folks, This question is in regards to fulfilling the language requirements in the EU for CE for large light industrial equipment subject to the Machinery Directive. EN 60950-1:2006 1.7.9 Isolation of multiple power sources states Where there is more than one connection supplying HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES or HAZARDOUS ENERGY LEVELS to equipment, a prominent marking, located close to the entry point provided for a SERVICE PERSON to gain access to the hazardous parts, shall be provided to indicate which disconnect device or devices isolate the equipment completely and which disconnect devices can be used to isolate each section of the equipment. EN 60950-1:2006 3.4.11 Multiple power sources states Where a unit receives power from more than one source, there shall be a prominent marking at each disconnect device giving adequate instructions for the removal of all power from the unit. The product in question has two power sources/disconnects. My assumption is that simply slapping some ISO 8001, 8002, and ISO 7134 pictogram labels at each of the disconnects and documenting the details in the service manual in the appropriate language is not sufficient. Therefore some descriptive text in the appropriate language needs to be present at each disconnect to satisfy the requirements. Depending on what that is, what size, and how much space is available it may be possible to put the instructions in all required languages on each unit at each disconnect or we may need to put only appropriate language(s) for the country we are shipping the unit to which would then have to be done per unit as applicable. I'm wondering if anyone has any creative examples/references/suggestions for fulfilling these requirements in a simple manner while also meeting the requirement of having all text be in one of the official community languages for each installation location. Thanks -Dave David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE Product Development Manager Bell and Howell - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
The latter makes more sense to me. I see a critical purpose of the nameplate as providing the instructions to the electrician regarding how to properly bring and protect the mains supply to the machine. I don't want any confusion in this matter. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. - Original Message - From: Dave Nyffenegger dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com To: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Tuesday, July 1, 2014 5:25:55 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources Related to this, EN 60204-1:2006 16.4 states “ A nameplate giving the following information shall be attached to the enclosure adjacent to each incoming supply: – name or trade mark of supplier; – certification mark, when required; – serial number, where applicable; – rated voltage, number of phases and frequency (if a.c.), and full-load current for each supply; – short-circuit rating of the equipment; – main document number (see IEC 62023). ” Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by some distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power supplies needs to be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies? Or only the rating for the supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the nameplate (each nameplate would have the rating for one supply)? Seems like the former. thanks -Dave From: Nyffenegger, Dave Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 8:50 AM To: Anthony Thomson; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Multiple power sources Sounds like I may need to compromise and make some labels with minimal text in just a few languages referring to the documentation and use the appropriate label for where the product is being installed. Since these systems are customized and built to order we be able to determine ahead of time which language(s) are needed. Thanks -Dave From: Anthony Thomson [ mailto:ton...@europe.com ] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 4:35 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources Hi Dave, Often 'one size' does not 'fit all' and you have to customise or configure products according customer requirements or destination market. It's never ideal because it carries engineering, manufacturing/supply, configuration management and inventory overheads, but sometimes its the best and/or only way. You may (and should) get away with limited language versions of the Declaration of Conformity but textual safety information either attached to equipment or contained within manuals MUST be in the local language(s) of the point of use. Just my opinion, Tony. Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 at 8:19 PM From: Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Multiple power sources Hi folks, This question is in regards to fulfilling the language requirements in the EU for CE for large light industrial equipment subject to the Machinery Directive. EN 60950-1:2006 1.7.9 Isolation of multiple power sources states Where there is more than one connection supplying HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES or HAZARDOUS ENERGY LEVELS to equipment, a prominent marking, located close to the entry point provided for a SERVICE PERSON to gain access to the hazardous parts, shall be provided to indicate which disconnect device or devices isolate the equipment completely and which disconnect devices can be used to isolate each section of the equipment. EN 60950-1:2006 3.4.11 Multiple power sources states Where a unit receives power from more than one source, there shall be a prominent marking at each disconnect device giving adequate instructions for the removal of all power from the unit. The product in question has two power sources/disconnects. My assumption is that simply slapping some ISO 8001, 8002, and ISO 7134 pictogram labels at each of the disconnects and documenting the details in the service manual in the appropriate language is not sufficient. Therefore some descriptive text in the appropriate language needs to be present at each disconnect to satisfy the requirements. Depending on what that is, what size, and how much space is available it may be possible to put the instructions in all required languages on each unit at each disconnect or we may need to put only appropriate language(s) for the country we are shipping the unit to which would then have to be done per unit as applicable. I'm wondering if anyone has any creative examples/references/suggestions for fulfilling these requirements in a simple manner while also meeting the requirement of having all text be in one of the official community languages for each installation location. Thanks -Dave David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE Product Development Manager Bell and Howell - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
In message f3d590e5d0f24f56b4539e9d93d57...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com , dated Tue, 1 Jul 2014, Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com writes: Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by some distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power supplies needs to be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies? Or only the rating for the supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the nameplate (each nameplate would have the rating for one supply)? Seems like the former. It appears that the standard does not consider the case of multiple supplies in this clause (if at all). So you have to consider what to do and document your decision in the safety assessment document. If you can put everything about both supplies on both nameplates, you could hardly be criticized. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
The standard reads for each supply . I was assuming this was referring/allowing for multiple concurrent supplies on the same machine. You think it was referring to different options for a single supply? For example ratings for 1 single phase 60Hz supply or 1 single phase 50Hz supply or 1 3 phase supply? My first thought before reading the standard was to put everything required on one nameplate only including only the primary power supply ratings located adjacent the primary power input. A secondary rating plate would go adjacent the second power input with only the supply ratings on it. Duplicating the serial number and CE mark seemed wrong to me at first but after thinking about it I guess it would be OK. I could not find anything regarding whether or not multiple CE marks were OK for the same product. -Dave -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 12:54 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources In message f3d590e5d0f24f56b4539e9d93d57...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com , dated Tue, 1 Jul 2014, Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com writes: Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by some distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power supplies needs to be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies? Or only the rating for the supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the nameplate (each nameplate would have the rating for one supply)? Seems like the former. It appears that the standard does not consider the case of multiple supplies in this clause (if at all). So you have to consider what to do and document your decision in the safety assessment document. If you can put everything about both supplies on both nameplates, you could hardly be criticized. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
Hi Dave, Often one size does not fit all and you have to customise or configure products according customer requirements or destination market. Its never ideal because it carries engineering, manufacturing/supply, configuration management and inventory overheads, but sometimes its the best and/or only way. You may (and should) get away with limited language versions of the Declaration of Conformity but textual safety information either attached to equipment or contained within manuals MUST be in the local language(s) of the point of use. Just my opinion, Tony. Sent:Saturday, June 28, 2014 at 8:19 PM From:Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com To:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject:[PSES] Multiple power sources Hi folks, This question is in regards to fulfilling the language requirements in the EU for CE for large light industrial equipment subject to the Machinery Directive. EN 60950-1:2006 1.7.9 Isolation of multiple power sources states Where there is more than one connection supplying HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES or HAZARDOUS ENERGY LEVELS to equipment, a prominent marking, located close to the entry point provided for a SERVICE PERSON to gain access to the hazardous parts, shall be provided to indicate which disconnect device or devices isolate the equipment completely and which disconnect devices can be used to isolate each section of the equipment. EN 60950-1:2006 3.4.11 Multiple power sources states Where a unit receives power from more than one source, there shall be a prominent marking at each disconnect device giving adequate instructions for the removal of all power from the unit. The product in question has two power sources/disconnects. My assumption is that simply slapping some ISO 8001, 8002, and ISO 7134 pictogram labels at each of the disconnects and documenting the details in the service manual in the appropriate language is not sufficient. Therefore some descriptive text in the appropriate language needs to be present at each disconnect to satisfy the requirements. Depending on what that is, what size, and how much space is available it may be possible to put the instructions in all required languages on each unit at each disconnect or we may need to put only appropriate language(s) for the country we are shipping the unit to which would then have to be done per unit as applicable. Im wondering if anyone has any creative examples/references/suggestions for fulfilling these requirements in a simple manner while also meeting the requirement of having all text be in one of the official community languages for each installation location. Thanks -Dave David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE Product Development Manager Bell and Howell - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
In message edd852ad26784ed08e3f2507b8c7b...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com , dated Sat, 28 Jun 2014, Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com writes: EN 60950-1:2006 3.4.11 Multiple power sources states Where a unit receives power from more than one source, there shall be a prominent marking at each disconnect device giving adequate instructions for the removal of all power from the unit. The product in question has two power sources/disconnects. My assumption is that simply slapping some ISO 8001, 8002, and ISO 7134 pictogram labels at each of the disconnects and documenting the details in the service manual in the appropriate language is not sufficient. Well, it might be, if you include the exclamation mark pictogram that says 'Refer to manual'. Actually, you should use IEC 60417 symbols on equipment, not those ISO symbols. There may be subtle differences even if they look the same. Therefore some descriptive text in the appropriate language needs to be present at each disconnect to satisfy the requirements. You might be able to do that for two languages on one label, but if you put more, the whole thing might be confusing for people with less than perfect reading skills (e.g. a Romanian trying to read Italian when working in Italy). Once again, the Commission would say that none of its requirements demand nonsensical measures, such as notices in 27 languages. But it does not often give solutions for particular cases. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid faciamus nisi sit? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources
Sounds like I may need to compromise and make some labels with minimal text in just a few languages referring to the documentation and use the appropriate label for where the product is being installed. Since these systems are customized and built to order we be able to determine ahead of time which language(s) are needed. Thanks -Dave From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 4:35 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources Hi Dave, Often 'one size' does not 'fit all' and you have to customise or configure products according customer requirements or destination market. It's never ideal because it carries engineering, manufacturing/supply, configuration management and inventory overheads, but sometimes its the best and/or only way. You may (and should) get away with limited language versions of the Declaration of Conformity but textual safety information either attached to equipment or contained within manuals MUST be in the local language(s) of the point of use. Just my opinion, Tony. Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 at 8:19 PM From: Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.commailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Multiple power sources Hi folks, This question is in regards to fulfilling the language requirements in the EU for CE for large light industrial equipment subject to the Machinery Directive. EN 60950-1:2006 1.7.9 Isolation of multiple power sources states Where there is more than one connection supplying HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES or HAZARDOUS ENERGY LEVELS to equipment, a prominent marking, located close to the entry point provided for a SERVICE PERSON to gain access to the hazardous parts, shall be provided to indicate which disconnect device or devices isolate the equipment completely and which disconnect devices can be used to isolate each section of the equipment. EN 60950-1:2006 3.4.11 Multiple power sources states Where a unit receives power from more than one source, there shall be a prominent marking at each disconnect device giving adequate instructions for the removal of all power from the unit. The product in question has two power sources/disconnects. My assumption is that simply slapping some ISO 8001, 8002, and ISO 7134 pictogram labels at each of the disconnects and documenting the details in the service manual in the appropriate language is not sufficient. Therefore some descriptive text in the appropriate language needs to be present at each disconnect to satisfy the requirements. Depending on what that is, what size, and how much space is available it may be possible to put the instructions in all required languages on each unit at each disconnect or we may need to put only appropriate language(s) for the country we are shipping the unit to which would then have to be done per unit as applicable. I'm wondering if anyone has any creative examples/references/suggestions for fulfilling these requirements in a simple manner while also meeting the requirement of having all text be in one of the official community languages for each installation location. Thanks -Dave David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE Product Development Manager Bell and Howell - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe
[PSES] Multiple power sources
Hi folks, This question is in regards to fulfilling the language requirements in the EU for CE for large light industrial equipment subject to the Machinery Directive. EN 60950-1:2006 1.7.9 Isolation of multiple power sources states Where there is more than one connection supplying HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES or HAZARDOUS ENERGY LEVELS to equipment, a prominent marking, located close to the entry point provided for a SERVICE PERSON to gain access to the hazardous parts, shall be provided to indicate which disconnect device or devices isolate the equipment completely and which disconnect devices can be used to isolate each section of the equipment. EN 60950-1:2006 3.4.11 Multiple power sources states Where a unit receives power from more than one source, there shall be a prominent marking at each disconnect device giving adequate instructions for the removal of all power from the unit. The product in question has two power sources/disconnects. My assumption is that simply slapping some ISO 8001, 8002, and ISO 7134 pictogram labels at each of the disconnects and documenting the details in the service manual in the appropriate language is not sufficient. Therefore some descriptive text in the appropriate language needs to be present at each disconnect to satisfy the requirements. Depending on what that is, what size, and how much space is available it may be possible to put the instructions in all required languages on each unit at each disconnect or we may need to put only appropriate language(s) for the country we are shipping the unit to which would then have to be done per unit as applicable. I'm wondering if anyone has any creative examples/references/suggestions for fulfilling these requirements in a simple manner while also meeting the requirement of having all text be in one of the official community languages for each installation location. Thanks -Dave David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE Product Development Manager Bell and Howell - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
