[PSES] Fw: Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Just finished some testing at an accredited lab. For an accredited report, they run QPs on all measurements whose peak are w/in 6 dB of the limit. I don't know if that's their rule, or by the regulations. FYI Colorado Brian -- Forwarded Message -- From: Bill Owsley <00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 06:19:10 + It reads like there are two limits, peak and QP. Go over either one and by how many and by how much over, does not matter. it is a fail and fix it. Otherwise, the lab should be recording the 6 points of each P and QP for 12 points, well, let the slide if all points are below the QP limit and graph shows that. Now to get lab to show a continuous graph for radiated emissions might be a problem. Easier to get a new lab ! Some cheap labs will fake a continuous plot by connecting the highest dots. Run from them ! Long details on the experience that I got. On Friday, April 5, 2024 at 03:33:01 PM EDT, Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: Hello PSES brain trust, When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be quasi-peaked? CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded. We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, even if that is more than six points. I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Mark This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
It reads like there are two limits, peak and QP. Go over either one and by how many and by how much over, does not matter. it is a fail and fix it. Otherwise, the lab should be recording the 6 points of each P and QP for 12 points, well, let the slide if all points are below the QP limit and graph shows that. Now to get lab to show a continuous graph for radiated emissions might be a problem. Easier to get a new lab ! Some cheap labs will fake a continuous plot by connecting the highest dots. Run from them ! Long details on the experience that I got. On Friday, April 5, 2024 at 03:33:01 PM EDT, Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: Hello PSES brain trust, When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be quasi-peaked? CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: “Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded.” We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, even if that is more than six points. I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Mark This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
generally, 2 limits, QP and P which is 20 db above QP. Gotta meet both. Unless the P is so infrequent as to call it a Click. Which I would not to want a challenge over. On Friday, April 5, 2024 at 03:53:43 PM EDT, Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: Hi Larry, I agree with you completely…I think the lab didn’t see that peak going over the limit line and therefore didn’t QP. We only noticed now that they have sent the report several weeks later. They’re arguing that there is no need to retest. Thanks, Mark From: Larry K. Stillings Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 3:46 PM To: Stultz, Mark ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? | | You don't often get email fromla...@complianceworldwide.com.Learn why this is important | | CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Mark, If the peak is above the limit (which most standards allow up to 20 dB), then wouldn’t you also need to know the quasi-peak of all the signals above the limit so you could compare them to the limit? The limit is in QP not peak. I guess failing is failing, but you really wouldn’t know by how much. Is it really that much more work to take a QP, or maybe the automation software doesn’t support that? We’re old school and still take the data manually and I have the guys always take both (peak and quasi-peak). Larry K. Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety 357 Main Street Sandown, NH 03873 (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 complianceworldwide.com Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. From: Stultz, Mark Sent: Friday, April 05, 2024 3:33 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? Hello PSES brain trust, When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be quasi-peaked? CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: “Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded.” We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, even if that is more than six points. I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Mark This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail toemc-p...@listserv.ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-
Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
This gets a bit more complicated for FCC regulations on emissions above
1 GHz, where the prescribed detector is an average detector (at 1 MHz
RBW) and the peak limit is defined as 20 dB above that.
On 4/5/2024 7:19 PM, Brent DeWitt wrote:
That is what I expected you meant, but a bit confusing based on the
original topic. You are certainly correct with respect to conducted
emissions!
On 4/5/2024 7:14 PM, rmm.priv...@gmail.com wrote:
I was thinking conducted emissions in the context of average detectors.
*From:*Brent DeWitt
*Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 3:48 PM
*To:* rmm.priv...@gmail.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Could you clarify when you would choose to use an average detector
for radiated emissions between 30 and 1000 MHz?
On 4/5/2024 6:39 PM, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:
I’m having trouble with /“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB),
where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance
levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest
disturbances shall be recorded.”/
//
Does this CISPR measurement methods standard expect you to record
the six highest signals which are less than or equal to -20dB wrt
the *average limit* when using an*average detector *and the*QP
limit *when using a*QP detector*? Perhaps that is made clear in
the product-specific standard (like EN55022 or CISPR 11, etc)
Comments?
//
/Ralph/
*From:*Stultz, Mark
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
*Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 12:33 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Hello PSES brain trust,
When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies
should be quasi-peaked?
CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:
/“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit
level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the
frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be
recorded.”/
We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements
above the limit, even if that is more than six points.
I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six,
regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark
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Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
That is what I expected you meant, but a bit confusing based on the
original topic. You are certainly correct with respect to conducted
emissions!
On 4/5/2024 7:14 PM, rmm.priv...@gmail.com wrote:
I was thinking conducted emissions in the context of average detectors.
*From:*Brent DeWitt
*Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 3:48 PM
*To:* rmm.priv...@gmail.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Could you clarify when you would choose to use an average detector for
radiated emissions between 30 and 1000 MHz?
On 4/5/2024 6:39 PM, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:
I’m having trouble with /“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB),
where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance
levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest
disturbances shall be recorded.”/
//
Does this CISPR measurement methods standard expect you to record
the six highest signals which are less than or equal to -20dB wrt
the *average limit* when using an*average detector *and the*QP
limit *when using a*QP detector*? Perhaps that is made clear in
the product-specific standard (like EN55022 or CISPR 11, etc)
Comments?
//
/Ralph/
*From:*Stultz, Mark
<0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
*Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 12:33 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Hello PSES brain trust,
When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies
should be quasi-peaked?
CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states:
/“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level
in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies
of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded.”/
We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above
the limit, even if that is more than six points.
I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six,
regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
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Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
I was thinking conducted emissions in the context of average detectors. From: Brent DeWitt Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 3:48 PM To: rmm.priv...@gmail.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? Could you clarify when you would choose to use an average detector for radiated emissions between 30 and 1000 MHz? On 4/5/2024 6:39 PM, Ralph McDiarmid wrote: I’m having trouble with “Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded.” Does this CISPR measurement methods standard expect you to record the six highest signals which are less than or equal to -20dB wrt the average limit when using an average detector and the QP limit when using a QP detector? Perhaps that is made clear in the product-specific standard (like EN55022 or CISPR 11, etc) Comments? Ralph From: Stultz, Mark <mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 12:33 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? Hello PSES brain trust, When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be quasi-peaked? CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: “Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded.” We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, even if that is more than six points. I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Mark _ This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ <https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org <mailto:linf...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC <https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1> =1 _ This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ <https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org <mailto:linf...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC <https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1> =1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sh
Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Could you clarify when you would choose to use an average detector for radiated emissions between 30 and 1000 MHz? On 4/5/2024 6:39 PM, Ralph McDiarmid wrote: I’m having trouble with /“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded.”/ // Does this CISPR measurement methods standard expect you to record the six highest signals which are less than or equal to -20dB wrt the *average limit* when using an*average detector *and the*QP limit *when using a*QP detector*? Perhaps that is made clear in the product-specific standard (like EN55022 or CISPR 11, etc) Comments? // /Ralph/ *From:*Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 12:33 PM *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? Hello PSES brain trust, When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be quasi-peaked? CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: /“Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded.”/ We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, even if that is more than six points. I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Mark This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ <https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 <https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
I'm having trouble with "Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded." Does this CISPR measurement methods standard expect you to record the six highest signals which are less than or equal to -20dB wrt the average limit when using an average detector and the QP limit when using a QP detector? Perhaps that is made clear in the product-specific standard (like EN55022 or CISPR 11, etc) Comments? Ralph From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 12:33 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? Hello PSES brain trust, When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be quasi-peaked? CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: "Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded." We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, even if that is more than six points. I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Mark _ This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ <https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org <mailto:linf...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC <https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1> =1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Hi Larry, I agree with you completely...I think the lab didn't see that peak going over the limit line and therefore didn't QP. We only noticed now that they have sent the report several weeks later. They're arguing that there is no need to retest. Thanks, Mark From: Larry K. Stillings Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 3:46 PM To: Stultz, Mark ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? You don't often get email from la...@complianceworldwide.com<mailto:la...@complianceworldwide.com>. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Mark, If the peak is above the limit (which most standards allow up to 20 dB), then wouldn't you also need to know the quasi-peak of all the signals above the limit so you could compare them to the limit? The limit is in QP not peak. I guess failing is failing, but you really wouldn't know by how much. Is it really that much more work to take a QP, or maybe the automation software doesn't support that? We're old school and still take the data manually and I have the guys always take both (peak and quasi-peak). Larry K. Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety 357 Main Street Sandown, NH 03873 (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 complianceworldwide.com<https://complianceworldwide.com/> <https://complianceworldwide.com/> Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. From: Stultz, Mark Sent: Friday, April 05, 2024 3:33 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? Hello PSES brain trust, When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be quasi-peaked? CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: "Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded." We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, even if that is more than six points. I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Mark This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/<https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net<mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org<mailto:linf...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: __
Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Mark, If the peak is above the limit (which most standards allow up to 20 dB), then wouldn't you also need to know the quasi-peak of all the signals above the limit so you could compare them to the limit? The limit is in QP not peak. I guess failing is failing, but you really wouldn't know by how much. Is it really that much more work to take a QP, or maybe the automation software doesn't support that? We're old school and still take the data manually and I have the guys always take both (peak and quasi-peak). Larry K. Stillings Compliance Worldwide, Inc. Test Locally, Sell Globally and Launch Your Products Around the World! FCC - Wireless - Telecom - CE Marking - International Approvals - Product Safety 357 Main Street Sandown, NH 03873 (603) 887 3903 Fax 887-6445 complianceworldwide.com<https://complianceworldwide.com> <https://complianceworldwide.com> Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. From: Stultz, Mark Sent: Friday, April 05, 2024 3:33 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? Hello PSES brain trust, When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be quasi-peaked? CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: "Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded." We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, even if that is more than six points. I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Mark This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/<https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net<mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org<mailto:linf...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
Re: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Mark, for the most part I always had 6 of the highest measured in each polarization, for a total of 12. Depending on what we saw, we may have measured more for curiosity's sake. Jim Bacher, WB8VSU From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2024 3:33 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP? Hello PSES brain trust, When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be quasi-peaked? CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: "Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded." We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, even if that is more than six points. I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Mark This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/<https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net<mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org<mailto:linf...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
[PSES] Radiated Emissions - How many points to QP?
Hello PSES brain trust, When doing radiated emissions measurements, how many frequencies should be quasi-peaked? CISPR 16-2-3 clause 6.4.9 states: "Of those disturbances above (L-20dB), where L is the limit level in logarithmic units, the disturbance levels and the frequencies of at least the six highest disturbances shall be recorded." We have always done QP measurements on all peak measurements above the limit, even if that is more than six points. I have a lab arguing that they only need to measure the top six, regardless of how many peak measurements are above the limit. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Mark - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
