Re: [PSES] Simulation of signal source under a pwb shield

[Chas Grasso]

Hello All and Thank you for all your help. !! The knowledge base here is
exceptional!

On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 1:29 AM James Pawson (U3C) <
ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> wrote:

> * This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk  *
> --
>
> Hi Charles,
>
>
>
> Why not flip it around? The circuit under your shield is an antenna which
> will be as good at receiving as transmitting. Illuminate the circuit with a
> known field intensity (radiated RF immunity test IEC 61000-4-3 for example)
> and measure the noise voltage at the key point on the circuit (RF
> connector).
>
>
>
> If you are still working on satellite tuners then presumably you are
> worried about in-band signals? Generating fields in the low GHz with a
> decent spec of signal generator, a horn antenna, and reducing the distance
> could work, even in a non shielded environment. Calibrating field strength
> would need maths or an electric field probe at the required distance.
>
>
>
> All the best
>
> James
>
>
>
> James Pawson
>
> Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver
>
>
>
> *Unit 3 Compliance Ltd*
>
> *EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA :
> Consultancy*
>
>
>
> www.unit3compliance.co.uk
> <http://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/>
> | ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk
>
> +44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957
>
> 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL
>
> Registered in England and Wales # 10574298
>
>
>
> *Office hours:*
>
> *Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and
> troubleshooting activities for our customers’ projects. I’m contactable
> between 1300h to 1730h from Monday to Friday.*
>
> *For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email on
> he...@unit3compliance.co.uk  or call 01274
> 911747. Our lead times for testing and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Chas Grasso 
> *Sent:* Friday, July 21, 2023 8:39 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] Simulation of signal source under a pwb shield
>
>
>
> Hello experts and gurus!!
>
>
> I need to simulate the performance of a BLS (board level shield) and I am
> considering
> using the IEEE Std 2716-2022 IEEE Guide for the Characterization of the
> Effectiveness of Printed Circuit Board Level Shielding document. This
> document is however an adaptation of
> the methods of evaluating gaskets rather than a focused guide on BLS
> performance.
>
> Question: Does anyone have experience using this Guide as intended for a
> BLS solution evaluation?
>
> Another Question: Would someone guide me to a paper or experiment that
> shows
> a decent correlation of a simulated source in a BLS versus actual
> measurements ?
>
>
> Here's my concern: The problem of how to internally  source a signal for
> simulation and
> measurement seems deceptively simple. Just put an antenna on the inside of
> the
> shield - right? Well, no. My concern is that the addition of the
> shield compromises
> the antenna characteristics and so inadvertently this results in better
> (or worse) results.
>
>
>
> With eager anticipation and appreciation for your help with this!!
>
> --
>
> Charles Grasso
>
> Dish Technologies
>
>  (c) 303-204-2974
>
> (w) 303-706-5467
>
> (h) 303-317-5530
>
> (e ) charles.gra...@dish.com
>
> (e2) chasgra...@gmail.com
> --
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All
> emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/
> <https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20>
>
> Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
> <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/>
> Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
> <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html>
> List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html
> <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html>
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
> Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link:
> https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1
> <https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUB

Re: [PSES] Simulation of signal source under a pwb shield

[James Pawson (U3C)]

Hi Charles,

 

Why not flip it around? The circuit under your shield is an antenna which will 
be as good at receiving as transmitting. Illuminate the circuit with a known 
field intensity (radiated RF immunity test IEC 61000-4-3 for example) and 
measure the noise voltage at the key point on the circuit (RF connector).

 

If you are still working on satellite tuners then presumably you are worried 
about in-band signals? Generating fields in the low GHz with a decent spec of 
signal generator, a horn antenna, and reducing the distance could work, even in 
a non shielded environment. Calibrating field strength would need maths or an 
electric field probe at the required distance.

 

All the best

James

 

James Pawson

Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver

 

Unit 3 Compliance Ltd

EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy

 

 <http://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/> www.unit3compliance.co.uk |  
<mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk 

+44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957

2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL

Registered in England and Wales # 10574298

 

Office hours:

Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and troubleshooting 
activities for our customers’ projects. I’m contactable between 1300h to 1730h 
from Monday to Friday.

For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email on 
he...@unit3compliance.co.uk <mailto:he...@unit3compliance.co.uk>  or call 01274 
911747. Our lead times for testing and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks.

 

 

 

 

From: Chas Grasso  
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2023 8:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Simulation of signal source under a pwb shield

 

Hello experts and gurus!!


I need to simulate the performance of a BLS (board level shield) and I am 
considering
using the IEEE Std 2716-2022 IEEE Guide for the Characterization of the 
Effectiveness of Printed Circuit Board Level Shielding document. This document 
is however an adaptation of 
the methods of evaluating gaskets rather than a focused guide on BLS 
performance.

Question: Does anyone have experience using this Guide as intended for a BLS 
solution evaluation? 

Another Question: Would someone guide me to a paper or experiment that shows 
a decent correlation of a simulated source in a BLS versus actual measurements ?


Here's my concern: The problem of how to internally  source a signal for 
simulation and
measurement seems deceptively simple. Just put an antenna on the inside of the 
shield - right? Well, no. My concern is that the addition of the shield 
compromises 
the antenna characteristics and so inadvertently this results in better (or 
worse) results.

 

With eager anticipation and appreciation for your help with this!!

-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com <mailto:charles.gra...@dish.com> 

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com <mailto:chasgra...@gmail.com> 

  _  

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All 
emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ 
<https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/%20>  

Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/  <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/> 
Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html> 
List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> 
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org <mailto:linf...@ieee.org>  

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>  

  _  

To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC 
<https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1> &A=1 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/

Website:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
Instructions:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
_
To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1

Re: [PSES] Simulation of signal source under a pwb shield

[Brent DeWitt]

Hi Chaz,

My thought is that concern over the simulated antenna can be neglected 
if the the source is "electrically short dipole" at the frequency of 
interest.  Simulating with the radiated field from such a source, with 
and without the shield, at a far field distance, should give you a 
decent approximation of the shield effectiveness.


Take care my friend!

Brent DeWitt, AB1LF
Milford, MA

On 7/21/2023 3:38 PM, Chas Grasso wrote:

Hello experts and gurus!!

I need to simulate the performance of a BLS (board level shield) and I 
am considering
using the IEEE Std 2716-2022 IEEE Guide for the Characterization of 
the Effectiveness of Printed Circuit Board Level Shielding document. 
This document is however an adaptation of
the methods of evaluating gaskets rather than a focused guide on BLS 
performance.


Question: Does anyone have experience using this Guide as intended for 
a BLS solution evaluation?


Another Question: Would someone guide me to a paper or experiment that 
shows
a decent correlation of a simulated source in a BLS versus actual 
measurements ?


Here's my concern: The problem of how to internally  source a signal 
for simulation and
measurement seems deceptively simple. Just put an antenna on the 
inside of the
shield - right? Well, no. My concern is that the addition of the 
shield compromises
the antenna characteristics and so inadvertently this results in 
better (or worse) results.


With eager anticipation and appreciation for your help with this!!
--

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com



This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web 
at:

https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/

Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how 
to unsubscribe) 

List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org



To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1




-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/

Website:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
Instructions:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
_
To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1

Re: [PSES] Simulation of signal source under a pwb shield

[Ken Javor]

Speaking in general – not acquainted with any work specific to your concern.

 

The real antenna is/are the IC (s) covered by the shield, and any internal 
connections between them.

 

If you properly simulate that, you need not worry about the effect of the 
shield on the antenna, because it will be the same whether real or simulated.

 

Seems to me your antenna is a PCB trace or traces.  I‘m thinking that they 
would not be much affected by the presence/absence of the BLS.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Chas Grasso 
Reply-To: Chas Grasso 
Date: Friday, July 21, 2023 at 2:38 PM
To: 
Subject: [PSES] Simulation of signal source under a pwb shield

 

Hello experts and gurus!!


I need to simulate the performance of a BLS (board level shield) and I am 
considering
using the IEEE Std 2716-2022 IEEE Guide for the Characterization of the 
Effectiveness of Printed Circuit Board Level Shielding document. This document 
is however an adaptation of 
the methods of evaluating gaskets rather than a focused guide on BLS 
performance.

Question: Does anyone have experience using this Guide as intended for a BLS 
solution evaluation? 

Another Question: Would someone guide me to a paper or experiment that shows 
a decent correlation of a simulated source in a BLS versus actual measurements ?


Here's my concern: The problem of how to internally  source a signal for 
simulation and
measurement seems deceptively simple. Just put an antenna on the inside of the 
shield - right? Well, no. My concern is that the addition of the shield 
compromises 
the antenna characteristics and so inadvertently this results in better (or 
worse) results.

 

With eager anticipation and appreciation for your help with this!!

-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All 
emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ 

Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ 
Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org 

To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/

Website:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
Instructions:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
_
To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1

Re: [PSES] Simulation of signal source under a pwb shield

[John Woodgate]

I suggest that a suitable source for evaluating the shielding 
effectiveness of a BLS is a multivibrator (square-wave source), with 
attention to rise and fall times: not too slow and not ridiculously 
fast. It's more representative of emitting sources than a canned antenna.


==
Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

I hear, and I forget. I see, and I remember. I do, and I understand. 
Xunzi (340 - 245 BC)



On 2023-07-21 20:38, Chas Grasso wrote:

Hello experts and gurus!!

I need to simulate the performance of a BLS (board level shield) and I 
am considering
using the IEEE Std 2716-2022 IEEE Guide for the Characterization of 
the Effectiveness of Printed Circuit Board Level Shielding document. 
This document is however an adaptation of
the methods of evaluating gaskets rather than a focused guide on BLS 
performance.


Question: Does anyone have experience using this Guide as intended for 
a BLS solution evaluation?


Another Question: Would someone guide me to a paper or experiment that 
shows
a decent correlation of a simulated source in a BLS versus actual 
measurements ?


Here's my concern: The problem of how to internally  source a signal 
for simulation and
measurement seems deceptively simple. Just put an antenna on the 
inside of the
shield - right? Well, no. My concern is that the addition of the 
shield compromises
the antenna characteristics and so inadvertently this results in 
better (or worse) results.


With eager anticipation and appreciation for your help with this!!
--

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com



This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web 
at:

https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/

Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how 
to unsubscribe) 

List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher at: j.bac...@ieee.org



To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1




-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/

Website:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
Instructions:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
_
To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1

[PSES] Simulation of signal source under a pwb shield

[Chas Grasso]

Hello experts and gurus!!

I need to simulate the performance of a BLS (board level shield) and I am
considering
using the IEEE Std 2716-2022 IEEE Guide for the Characterization of the
Effectiveness of Printed Circuit Board Level Shielding document. This
document is however an adaptation of
the methods of evaluating gaskets rather than a focused guide on BLS
performance.

Question: Does anyone have experience using this Guide as intended for a
BLS solution evaluation?

Another Question: Would someone guide me to a paper or experiment that
shows
a decent correlation of a simulated source in a BLS versus actual
measurements ?

Here's my concern: The problem of how to internally  source a signal for
simulation and
measurement seems deceptively simple. Just put an antenna on the inside of
the
shield - right? Well, no. My concern is that the addition of the
shield compromises
the antenna characteristics and so inadvertently this results in better (or
worse) results.

With eager anticipation and appreciation for your help with this!!
-- 

Charles Grasso

Dish Technologies

 (c) 303-204-2974

(w) 303-706-5467

(h) 303-317-5530

(e ) charles.gra...@dish.com

(e2) chasgra...@gmail.com

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/

Website:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/
Instructions:  https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net
Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
_
To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1