subject:"\[PSES\] Uncertainty in ESD testing"

Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing

2017-09-01 Thread Ed Price

"If you can't stand the answer, don't ask the question."

 

Oh how I wish you had been my lawyer during a couple of program manager
inquisitions. I still would have been tarred and feathered, but the walk
back to town would have been much shorter.

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

 

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2017 1:05 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing

 

I neglected to say in my previous post the obvious: we were discussing
implementation of CS118, the new ESD requirement.  Regarding charging in
where angels fear to tread, MIL-STD-461 has since 1993 imposed measurement
system integrity checks, wherein a known stimulus is applied to the
transducer and the response at the EMI receiver is verified to be within +/-
3 dB, or the measurement system needs adjustment.

For RE102, the radiated electric field requirement, that injection is always
less the actual transducer, i.e., the antenna. The antenna is disconnected
and the injection is made where the antenna would connect.

This approach obeys a fundamental rule of life: "If you can't stand the
answer, don't ask the question."

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261




-

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Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing

2017-09-01 Thread Ken Javor

I neglected to say in my previous post the obvious: we were discussing
implementation of CS118, the new ESD requirement.  Regarding charging in
where angels fear to tread, MIL-STD-461 has since 1993 imposed measurement
system integrity checks, wherein a known stimulus is applied to the
transducer and the response at the EMI receiver is verified to be within +/-
3 dB, or the measurement system needs adjustment.

For RE102, the radiated electric field requirement, that injection is always
less the actual transducer, i.e., the antenna. The antenna is disconnected
and the injection is made where the antenna would connect.

This approach obeys a fundamental rule of life: ³If you can¹t stand the
answer, don¹t ask the question.²

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 19:47:18 +0100
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing

As long as your lack of fear isn't because you are not aware of the
situation.
 

With best wishes John Woodgate
3 Bramfield Road East, RAYLEIGH Essex SS6 8RG UK OOO  Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/>  J M Woodgate and
Associates 
 
Beware averages! They hide or discard data, and may distort it (them?).
 
 

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 7:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing
 
I made this point (in a less erudite manner) within the TSWG when we were
drafting MIL-STD-461G, but with a requirement such as RE102 already on the
books, we are all well acquainted with uncertainty and unafraid of it...

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


From: Douglas Smith <d...@emcesd.com>
Reply-To: Douglas Smith <d...@emcesd.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 09:37:45 -0700
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing


I recently replied to another post and mentioned uncertainty in ESD testing.
I thought it would be good to post it separately to start a wider
discussion, so here we go:

In ESD testing, the poor specification of the simulator in standards, like
IEC 61000-4-2  , leads to uncertainty (that one cannot
calculate) that far exceeds any uncertainty calculation one could make on
ESD testing. Until we fix the standards, uncertainty calculation for ESD
testing is meaningless. What is needed is a maximum di/dt limit everywhere
on the current waveform and a radiation spec on the simulator. And this is
only for contact discharge. For air discharge, the large uncertainty of the
discharge itself will likely dominate unless hundreds of discharges are used
at each point to reach statistical significance.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone:  408-858-4528
Office:702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

-


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<emc-p...@ieee.org>

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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This message is from the IEEE Prod

Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing

2017-09-01 Thread John Woodgate

I once kidded someone that it was a mineral, a sort of orange-blue colour, and 
nearly as hard as diamond.
 
With best wishes John Woodgate
3 Bramfield Road East, RAYLEIGH Essex SS6 8RG UK OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates 
 
Beware averages! They hide or discard data, and may distort it (them?).
 
 
From: Patrick [mailto:conwa...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 8:25 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing
 
@Ken.Javor - I had to look this up...  "erudite".The act of looking it up 
showed that I am not!  Ha! 
 
Thanks again for the Friday humor!
-Patrick
 
On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com 
<mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> > wrote:
I made this point (in a less erudite manner) within the TSWG when we were 
drafting MIL-STD-461G, but with a requirement such as RE102 already on the 
books, we are all well acquainted with uncertainty and unafraid of it...

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261 <tel:(256)%20650-5261> 



  _  

From: Douglas Smith <d...@emcesd.com <mailto:d...@emcesd.com> >
Reply-To: Douglas Smith <d...@emcesd.com <mailto:d...@emcesd.com> >
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 09:37:45 -0700
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >
Subject: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing


I recently replied to another post and mentioned uncertainty in ESD testing. I 
thought it would be good to post it separately to start a wider discussion, so 
here we go:

In ESD testing, the poor specification of the simulator in standards, like IEC 
61000-4-2  , leads to uncertainty (that one cannot calculate) 
that far exceeds any uncertainty calculation one could make on ESD testing. 
Until we fix the standards, uncertainty calculation for ESD testing is 
meaningless. What is needed is a maximum di/dt limit everywhere on the current 
waveform and a radiation spec on the simulator. And this is only for contact 
discharge. For air discharge, the large uncertainty of the discharge itself 
will likely dominate unless hundreds of discharges are used at each point to 
reach statistical significance.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone:  408-858-4528 <tel:(408)%20858-4528> 
Office:702-570-6108 <tel:(702)%20570-6108> 
Email: d...@dsmith.org <mailto:d...@dsmith.org> 
Website: http://dsmith.org

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
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Jim Bacher  <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
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Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> 
David Heald dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>  



 
-- 
//
Patrick
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list

Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing

2017-09-01 Thread Patrick

@Ken.Javor - I had to look this up...  "erudite".The act of looking it
up showed that I am not!  Ha!

Thanks again for the Friday humor!
-Patrick

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>
wrote:

> I made this point (in a less erudite manner) within the TSWG when we were
> drafting MIL-STD-461G, but with a requirement such as RE102 already on the
> books, we are all well acquainted with uncertainty and unafraid of it...
>
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
>
>
> --
> *From: *Douglas Smith <d...@emcesd.com>
> *Reply-To: *Douglas Smith <d...@emcesd.com>
> *Date: *Fri, 1 Sep 2017 09:37:45 -0700
> *To: *<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> *Subject: *[PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing
>
>
> I recently replied to another post and mentioned uncertainty in ESD
> testing. I thought it would be good to post it separately to start a wider
> discussion, so here we go:
>
> In ESD testing, the poor specification of the simulator in standards, like
> IEC 61000-4-2  , leads to uncertainty (that one cannot
> calculate) that far exceeds any uncertainty calculation one could make on
> ESD testing. Until we fix the standards, uncertainty calculation for ESD
> testing is meaningless. What is needed is a maximum di/dt limit everywhere
> on the current waveform and a radiation spec on the simulator. And this is
> only for contact discharge. For air discharge, the large uncertainty of the
> discharge itself will likely dominate unless hundreds of discharges are
> used at each point to reach statistical significance.
>
> Doug Smith
> Sent from my iPhone
> IPhone:  408-858-4528 <(408)%20858-4528>
> Office:702-570-6108 <(702)%20570-6108>
> Email: d...@dsmith.org
> Website: http://dsmith.org
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
> <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher  <j.bac...@ieee.org>
> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>



-- 
//
Patrick

-

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Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing

2017-09-01 Thread John Woodgate

As long as your lack of fear isn't because you are not aware of the
situation..
 
With best wishes John Woodgate
3 Bramfield Road East, RAYLEIGH Essex SS6 8RG UK OOO - Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates 
 
Beware averages! They hide or discard data, and may distort it (them?).
 
 
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 7:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing
 
I made this point (in a less erudite manner) within the TSWG when we were
drafting MIL-STD-461G, but with a requirement such as RE102 already on the
books, we are all well acquainted with uncertainty and unafraid of it...

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


  _  

From: Douglas Smith <d...@emcesd.com <mailto:d...@emcesd.com> >
Reply-To: Douglas Smith <d...@emcesd.com <mailto:d...@emcesd.com> >
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 09:37:45 -0700
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >
Subject: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing


I recently replied to another post and mentioned uncertainty in ESD testing.
I thought it would be good to post it separately to start a wider
discussion, so here we go:

In ESD testing, the poor specification of the simulator in standards, like
IEC 61000-4-2  , leads to uncertainty (that one cannot
calculate) that far exceeds any uncertainty calculation one could make on
ESD testing. Until we fix the standards, uncertainty calculation for ESD
testing is meaningless. What is needed is a maximum di/dt limit everywhere
on the current waveform and a radiation spec on the simulator. And this is
only for contact discharge. For air discharge, the large uncertainty of the
discharge itself will likely dominate unless hundreds of discharges are used
at each point to reach statistical significance.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone:  408-858-4528
Office:702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org <mailto:d...@dsmith.org> 
Website: http://dsmith.org

-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

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http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 
-

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 

-

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<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Ins

Re: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing

2017-09-01 Thread Ken Javor

I made this point (in a less erudite manner) within the TSWG when we were
drafting MIL-STD-461G, but with a requirement such as RE102 already on the
books, we are all well acquainted with uncertainty and unafraid of it...

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Douglas Smith <d...@emcesd.com>
Reply-To: Douglas Smith <d...@emcesd.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 09:37:45 -0700
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing


I recently replied to another post and mentioned uncertainty in ESD testing.
I thought it would be good to post it separately to start a wider
discussion, so here we go:

In ESD testing, the poor specification of the simulator in standards, like
IEC 61000-4-2  , leads to uncertainty (that one cannot
calculate) that far exceeds any uncertainty calculation one could make on
ESD testing. Until we fix the standards, uncertainty calculation for ESD
testing is meaningless. What is needed is a maximum di/dt limit everywhere
on the current waveform and a radiation spec on the simulator. And this is
only for contact discharge. For air discharge, the large uncertainty of the
discharge itself will likely dominate unless hundreds of discharges are used
at each point to reach statistical significance.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone:  408-858-4528
Office:702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>

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Jim Bacher  <j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com>



-

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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[PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing

2017-09-01 Thread Douglas Smith

I recently replied to another post and mentioned uncertainty in ESD 
testing. I thought it would be good to post it separately to start a wider 
discussion, so here we go:
In ESD testing, the poor specification of the simulator in standards, like 
IEC 61000-4-2 [tel:61000-4-2] , leads to uncertainty (that one cannot 
calculate) that far exceeds any uncertainty calculation one could make on 
ESD testing. Until we fix the standards, uncertainty calculation for ESD 
testing is meaningless. What is needed is a maximum di/dt limit everywhere 
on the current waveform and a radiation spec on the simulator. And this is 
only for contact discharge. For air discharge, the large uncertainty of the 
discharge itself will likely dominate unless hundreds of discharges are 
used at each point to reach statistical significance.


Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 
Email: d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org


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[PSES] Uncertainty in ESD testing

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