RE: Conducted Line Emissions
Hello Dan, You have 2 interesting options open to you, but you do not have enough information for either. The FCC revised their Part 15 rules for conducted emissions this September essentially adopting CISPR 22, measuring in both QP and Ave. The product needs to pass both limits to establish compliance. However, the new rules are not mandatory until July 2004 for new designs (production and importation must include the new rules by July 2005). Under the old rules, the product is measured with a QP detector and compared to the limits. If an over-limit condition is observed, one then applies the broadband test. The broadband test compares the signal measured with an Average detector to the signal measured with the QP detector. If the Ave level is more than 6 dB below the QP level, the signal is considered broadband and a 13 dB relaxation is allowed. Also note that under the old rules, the spectrum of concern is 450 kHz to 30 MHz compared to 150 kHz to 30 MHz for the new rules. For the data that you presented, no one can tell if the product passes or fails because there is no QP data. Both the new and the old standard require a QP measurement. Hope this helps. Regards, Don Umbdenstock Tyco Safety Products -- Sensormatic > -- > From: Dan Pierce[SMTP:dpie...@openglobe.net] > Reply To: Dan Pierce > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 4:04 PM > To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Subject: Conducted Line Emissions > > <><> > Greetings: > > I am looking for proof that I can use the averaged value for emissions > rather than the peak value. Attached is a chart that I was given by an > Asia > test site that told me I failed. According to my past experience, I > believe > that the average power is what I should be concerned about. Similar to > radiated emissions right? > > > Thank you. > > Daniel J. Pierce > Sr. Design Engineer > OpenGlobe, Inc. > > (An Escient Technologies Affiliate) > 6325 Digital Way > Indianapolis, IN 46278 > > mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net > > P: (317) 616.6587 > F: (317) 616.6587 > > > --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Conducted Line Emissions
Dan, Looks like the detectors are not correct. The measurement should be done with a QP detector, the limit line shown is the old FCC Class B. If the measurement is to the new limits, then measurement should start at 0.15 MHz. No conclusion can be made for the region from 0.15 MHz-0.45 MHz! All we can see is that the device did not fail the limits for the average detector between 0.45 MHz - 30 MHz under the new FCC Class B (I dare say partially "harmonized") standard. The peak values did go above the average limits of the new standard (between 1-3 MHz and 6-7MHz) but this is meaningless unless you know something about the nature or characteristics of the emission. Judging from the difference between the result from the average and peak detector all we can say is that we are dealing with some form of broadband or even perhaps partially intermitent emission. This is impossible to tell unless one have some knowledge of the product. :-) Looks like this is a case of mistaken identity of sorts. :-) Just my 2 ยข worth. Tim Foo EMC Short Course Singapore 25 Nov 2002 http://www.cec.np.edu.sg/courses.phtml?course_code=XC45 "Pettit, Ghery" , emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org m> cc: (bcc: Wan Juang Foo/ece/staff/npnet) Sent by: Subject: RE: Conducted Line Emissions owner-emc-pstc@majordo mo.ieee.org 11/08/02 06:56 AM Please respond to "Pettit, Ghery" Dan, >From the data provided one cannot make a pass/fail decision. The (old) FCC limits for power line conducted emissions are based on a quasi-peak detector. Going over the limit with a peak detector does not necessarily mean that the product fails as a peak detector quite often will read higher than a quasi-peak detector. Meeting the limit with an average detector is meaningless as it is not the specified detector. The new limits are equal to the limits in CISPR 22 and require both an average and a quasi-peak detector reading. In either case, this data is incomplete. The lab cannot tell you that you fail, nor can it say you pass. Radiated emissions are specified with a quasi-peak detector for frequencies up to and including 1 GHz and an average detector above 1 GHz. Ghery Pettit Intel -Original Message- From: Dan Pierce [mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net] Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:05 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Conducted Line Emissions Greetings: I am looking for proof that I can use the averaged value for emissions rather than the peak value. Attached is a chart that I was given by an Asia test site that told me I failed. According to my past experience, I believe that the average power is what I should be concerned about. Similar to radiated emissions right? Thank you. Daniel J. Pierce Sr. Design Engineer OpenGlobe, Inc. > (An Escient Technologies Affiliate) 6325 Digital Way Indianapolis, IN 46278 mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net P: (317) 616.6587 F: (317) 616.6587 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe em
Re: Conducted Line Emissions
Dan, Ask for the tabular "QUASI-PEAK" results against CISPR 22 limits from the lab if they told you your product "failed" FCC limits. I guess nobody can tell the pass/fail from the plot the lab presented to you. Leslie Dan Pierce wrote: Greetings: I am looking for proof that I can use the averaged value for emissions rather than the peak value. Attached is a chart that I was given by an Asia test site that told me I failed. According to my past experience, I believe that the average power is what I should be concerned about. Similar to radiated emissions right? Thank you. Daniel J. Pierce - Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
RE: Conducted Line Emissions
Dan, >From the data provided one cannot make a pass/fail decision. The (old) FCC limits for power line conducted emissions are based on a quasi-peak detector. Going over the limit with a peak detector does not necessarily mean that the product fails as a peak detector quite often will read higher than a quasi-peak detector. Meeting the limit with an average detector is meaningless as it is not the specified detector. The new limits are equal to the limits in CISPR 22 and require both an average and a quasi-peak detector reading. In either case, this data is incomplete. The lab cannot tell you that you fail, nor can it say you pass. Radiated emissions are specified with a quasi-peak detector for frequencies up to and including 1 GHz and an average detector above 1 GHz. Ghery Pettit Intel -Original Message- From: Dan Pierce [mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net] Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:05 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Conducted Line Emissions Greetings: I am looking for proof that I can use the averaged value for emissions rather than the peak value. Attached is a chart that I was given by an Asia test site that told me I failed. According to my past experience, I believe that the average power is what I should be concerned about. Similar to radiated emissions right? Thank you. Daniel J. Pierce Sr. Design Engineer OpenGlobe, Inc. > (An Escient Technologies Affiliate) 6325 Digital Way Indianapolis, IN 46278 mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net P: (317) 616.6587 F: (317) 616.6587 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Conducted Line Emissions
Hello, Interesting, looks like you meet the old FCC requireemnts. I think the new FCC requirements are to the CISPR A and B limits. Regards, Ken Hall -Original Message- From: Dan Pierce [mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net] Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:05 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Conducted Line Emissions Greetings: I am looking for proof that I can use the averaged value for emissions rather than the peak value. Attached is a chart that I was given by an Asia test site that told me I failed. According to my past experience, I believe that the average power is what I should be concerned about. Similar to radiated emissions right? Thank you. Daniel J. Pierce Sr. Design Engineer OpenGlobe, Inc. > (An Escient Technologies Affiliate) 6325 Digital Way Indianapolis, IN 46278 mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net P: (317) 616.6587 F: (317) 616.6587 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: Conducted Line Emissions
Neither of these is the right detector if you interpret them strictly. A quasi-peak detector (what you are supposed to use to measure against the limit) has a response in between that of a true peak detector and an average detector. But a lot of times when they say peak they mean quasi-peak. But in no case can you use true average detection to compare data to the 48 dBuV FCC limit. -- >From: Dan Pierce >To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org >Subject: Conducted Line Emissions >Date: Thu, Nov 7, 2002, 3:04 PM > > Greetings: > > I am looking for proof that I can use the averaged value for emissions > rather than the peak value. Attached is a chart that I was given by an Asia > test site that told me I failed. According to my past experience, I believe > that the average power is what I should be concerned about. Similar to > radiated emissions right? > > > Thank you. > > Daniel J. Pierce > Sr. Design Engineer > OpenGlobe, Inc. >> (An Escient Technologies Affiliate) > 6325 Digital Way > Indianapolis, IN 46278 > > mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net > > P: (317) 616.6587 > F: (317) 616.6587 > > > --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Conducted Line Emissions
Greetings: I am looking for proof that I can use the averaged value for emissions rather than the peak value. Attached is a chart that I was given by an Asia test site that told me I failed. According to my past experience, I believe that the average power is what I should be concerned about. Similar to radiated emissions right? Thank you. Daniel J. Pierce Sr. Design Engineer OpenGlobe, Inc. > (An Escient Technologies Affiliate) 6325 Digital Way Indianapolis, IN 46278 mailto:dpie...@openglobe.net P: (317) 616.6587 F: (317) 616.6587 <> Pages from Line conduction.pdf Description: Binary data
