Re: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
I read in !emc-pstc that Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com wrote (in 20022357.paa03...@epgc196.sdd.hp.com) about 'CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE', on Mon, 12 Nov 2001: Hi John: No; France and Norway have 'IT' systems, in which grounding is only to prevent static charge build-up; the neutral is grounded through an impedance at the sub-station. AIUI, this is used in mountainous districts where ground paths are long and of low conductivity. There are significant differences between the French and Norwegian systems. Can you please explain what those differences are? I don't know at present, but I may be able to find out next week. The explanation I have seen was said by some people in EDF to be wrong, and they should know! -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
Hi John: No; France and Norway have 'IT' systems, in which grounding is only to prevent static charge build-up; the neutral is grounded through an impedance at the sub-station. AIUI, this is used in mountainous districts where ground paths are long and of low conductivity. There are significant differences between the French and Norwegian systems. Can you please explain what those differences are? Thanks, and best regards, Rich Richard Nute Hewlett-Packard Company San Diego --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
I read in !emc-pstc that Ted Rook t...@crestaudio.com wrote (in sbe6c255@peavey.com) about 'CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE', on Mon, 5 Nov 2001: Could the grounding safety issues we are confronted by have been avoided if the incoming AC supply had remained 'balanced' that is, not referenced to local ground anywhere? No; France and Norway have 'IT' systems, in which grounding is only to prevent static charge build-up; the neutral is grounded through an impedance at the sub-station. AIUI, this is used in mountainous districts where ground paths are long and of low conductivity. There are significant differences between the French and Norwegian systems. Or to put it another way. Some where along the way it was decided to ground the neutral at the premises entrance. Why? This applies in the US and many European countries, but not to UK or France. What is the advantage? and to whom? Several advantages, to the user and to the utility. I feel I should already know the answer, but I don't. Any offers? - Multiple grounding reduces 'ground lift' with high-current faults; - Reduced ground return impedance ensures that protective devices operate on live to ground faults; - Protection against open-neutral faults, capable of frying cables and installations. (which reminds me of the fact that it was the catalog of an American parts supplier which taught me why we have fused domestic plugs in the UK and not elsewhere; because the UK domestic wiring uses ring distribution through the house. The ring has a single thirty amp rated fuse and so can supply over twice the current rating of an individual outlet. Primary protection takes place inside the appliance outlet plug which has 13A fuse rating. The resettable magnetic breakers that are so familiar to everyone in 120V territory are unknown in the UK.) Not so; the rings in my house have 32 A miniature breakers, not fuses. The lighting circuits have 6 A breakers. The water heater has a 16 A breaker. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
Could the grounding safety issues we are confronted by have been avoided if the incoming AC supply had remained 'balanced' that is, not referenced to local ground anywhere? Or to put it another way. Some where along the way it was decided to ground the neutral at the premises entrance. Why? What is the advantage? and to whom? I feel I should already know the answer, but I don't. Any offers? (which reminds me of the fact that it was the catalog of an American parts supplier which taught me why we have fused domestic plugs in the UK and not elsewhere; because the UK domestic wiring uses ring distribution through the house. The ring has a single thirty amp rated fuse and so can supply over twice the current rating of an individual outlet. Primary protection takes place inside the appliance outlet plug which has 13A fuse rating. The resettable magnetic breakers that are so familiar to everyone in 120V territory are unknown in the UK.) Newbie here. Brit working in US. Best Regards Ted Rook Crest Audio 201 909 8700 ext 213 geor...@lexmark.com 05-Nov-01 1:46:15 PM Several years ago I had the need to explain this same issue. Similarly most of the inquiries came from the U.K. Here are some exerpts from a white paper done to address this issue: *** This document addresses the nature and safety of two-wire ITE products. The international safety standard for ITE is IEC 60950. The referenced sections of IEC 60950 below are generally the same in unique country standards. SHOCK PROTECTION A major aspect of product safety for ITE is protection against electric shock. There are three equally acceptable methods of achieving this protection (section 1.2.4). Class I equipment employs only basic insulation, but ties all accessible conductive parts to a ground pin to protect the user in the event of a failure of the basic insulation. Such equipment requires a three-wire line cord and a reliable path to earth ground. Class II equipment uses double or reinforced insulation between primary voltage and accessible conductive parts to protect against electric shock. Such equipment uses a two-wire line cord, is not dependent on the integrity of the building's grounding system, and typically displays the square within a square symbol denoting double insulation. ITE products which contain no hazardous voltages (e.g. less than 42.4Vpk/60Vdc) are approved as Class III devices. NATURE OF CLASS II There is one aspect of Class II equipment that can confuse end users. Because no earth ground path is required or available, accessible conductive parts will float to some voltage less than the applied mains voltage. Typically this may be one-half of the mains voltage. This voltage is not considered a hazard under the standards as the available current cannot exceed the 250uA specified in Table 17 of section 5.2.2. Some individuals may be able to feel a slight tingle or shock at this low current level, although no electric shock injury should result. FINAL COMMENTS If a user is aware of a voltage on an accessible part, and suspects a hazardous condition, some simple tests can be performed to eliminate this concern. George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
REMEMBER THE EMC FILTER! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
I read in !emc-pstc that geor...@lexmark.com wrote (in 200111051917.OAA 13...@interlock2.lexmark.com) about 'CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE', on Mon, 5 Nov 2001: A word of history on Class I vs. Class II, as I understand it. In the beginning there was no such thing as earth grounding in homes and offices for the needed electrical appliances. The equivalent of our present double insulation was required to prevent against electric shock. No, those old products were 'Class 0' - basic insulation only. Class 0 is banned in most countries now. Looking inside one of those old products makes you shudder now. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
I read in !emc-pstc that Andrew Wood andrew.w...@landinst.com wrote (in e49d8b319a2fd5119e2808002bc33c591c8...@landuk1.landinst.com) about 'CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE', on Mon, 5 Nov 2001: All I have a piece of equipment falling under the scope of EN6010. Is that a typo or do you really think that is the number? To set the scene it is a low volume product, approx 0.5m cube, stainless steel enclosure and will sit on a bench in food cold storage areas. Mains lead connects via IP68 connector. It incorporates a SMPS for universal mains operation ( current draw approx 0.3A). Because of problems ensuring a reliable earth in some locations for its predecessor, I have specifically designed it to be Class2 (double insulated). Therefore safe for all markets. Now, ironically, I am encountering some unease with the UK sales dept. After all everyone KNOWS that a metal box should be earthed. (I don't dismiss this attitude lightly because it is no doubt shared by some of the customer base.) Technically there is no problem with providing a 3-core cable and connecting up the earth conductor. And after all if 2 levels of protection is good, 3 levels is better. Option 1 is obviously to stick with the design as is and educate sales/customers where necessary. If you provide the product with a moulded-on mains plug, they'll never know it's Class 2 unless they read the rating label! Are you sure that the capacitance between the internals and the metal case is low enough for there to be no detectable 'touch current' if someone touches earth with one hand and your box with the other? Such a detectable current is not hazardous but is extremely aversive - people won't like working with the product if it 'bites', even gently. Assume that all the internals are at half mains voltage to true earth, i.e. 115 V in UK. Now you need to get the touch current down to 0.5 mA at most, preferably 0.3 mA. 115 V and 0.3 mA means 8.3 nF maximum capacitance. Possible, with care. Will your SMPS meet the conducted emission limits with no earth connection? Option 2 is to provide a 3core product for the some markets and a 2core product for others. This goes against the original intention to have a universal product. Yes. not convenient at all. Is there an option 3? ie provide 3core cable and explain in the manual that product is designed to be safe without an earth but the earth may be fitted if desired. What about the square in square symbol? If you provide a 3-core cable, you MUST NOT refer to the product as 'Class 2' or put the double-square symbol on it. But you can explain in the instructions book, if you want to. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
A word of history on Class I vs. Class II, as I understand it. In the beginning there was no such thing as earth grounding in homes and offices for the needed electrical appliances. The equivalent of our present double insulation was required to prevent against electric shock. When structures began to include earth grounded outlets, this method of protection required only basic insulation, i.e. cheaper for the average appliance cost of materials, hence a rapid use of Class I designs. However, given what I know about each, I prefer Class II devices for home appliances and tools, as there is no dependence on the ground path, which may be compromised in the device, the cord, extension cords, house wiring, and so on. Just my personal opinion. George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
Several years ago I had the need to explain this same issue. Similarly most of the inquiries came from the U.K. Here are some exerpts from a white paper done to address this issue: *** This document addresses the nature and safety of two-wire ITE products. The international safety standard for ITE is IEC 60950. The referenced sections of IEC 60950 below are generally the same in unique country standards. SHOCK PROTECTION A major aspect of product safety for ITE is protection against electric shock. There are three equally acceptable methods of achieving this protection (section 1.2.4). Class I equipment employs only basic insulation, but ties all accessible conductive parts to a ground pin to protect the user in the event of a failure of the basic insulation. Such equipment requires a three-wire line cord and a reliable path to earth ground. Class II equipment uses double or reinforced insulation between primary voltage and accessible conductive parts to protect against electric shock. Such equipment uses a two-wire line cord, is not dependent on the integrity of the building's grounding system, and typically displays the square within a square symbol denoting double insulation. ITE products which contain no hazardous voltages (e.g. less than 42.4Vpk/60Vdc) are approved as Class III devices. NATURE OF CLASS II There is one aspect of Class II equipment that can confuse end users. Because no earth ground path is required or available, accessible conductive parts will float to some voltage less than the applied mains voltage. Typically this may be one-half of the mains voltage. This voltage is not considered a hazard under the standards as the available current cannot exceed the 250uA specified in Table 17 of section 5.2.2. Some individuals may be able to feel a slight tingle or shock at this low current level, although no electric shock injury should result. FINAL COMMENTS If a user is aware of a voltage on an accessible part, and suspects a hazardous condition, some simple tests can be performed to eliminate this concern. George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
At home my video recorder, hi-fi and Satellite box, have metal outer enclosure. But are supplied by a two pin IEC320 C8 connector, running back to a UK three pin plug. The earth core is simply not present in the power cord. Products are marked with the Square within a Square and the manuals state they are double insulated, not reliant on a protective earth. So your option three and pretty standard practice for such domestic goods. If you decide to run an earth to the chassis, or follow the product may be earthed if so desired route. Then I advise you look in EN60950 sec 2.6.2 for the requirements on Functional Earthing to ensure you are still meeting all the spacing and insulation requirements for a double insulation and SELV circuits. As usual my opinion, not that of my employers. Andrew Wood wrote: All I have a piece of equipment falling under the scope of EN6010. To set the scene it is a low volume product, approx 0.5m cube, stainless steel enclosure and will sit on a bench in food cold storage areas. Mains lead connects via IP68 connector. It incorporates a SMPS for universal mains operation ( current draw approx 0.3A). Because of problems ensuring a reliable earth in some locations for its predecessor, I have specifically designed it to be Class2 (double insulated). Therefore safe for all markets. Now, ironically, I am encountering some unease with the UK sales dept. After all everyone KNOWS that a metal box should be earthed. (I don't dismiss this attitude lightly because it is no doubt shared by some of the customer base.) Technically there is no problem with providing a 3-core cable and connecting up the earth conductor. And after all if 2 levels of protection is good, 3 levels is better. Option 1 is obviously to stick with the design as is and educate sales/customers where necessary. Option 2 is to provide a 3core product for the some markets and a 2core product for others. This goes against the original intention to have a universal product. Is there an option 3? ie provide 3core cable and explain in the manual that product is designed to be safe without an earth but the earth may be fitted if desired. What about the square in square symbol? I'm sure that I'm not the first to be looking at these questions. Any and all thoughts would be appreciated. Best regards, Andy. Andrew Wood Engineer (Specials) Land Instruments International England Please excuse following message automatically inserted by server This e-mail and its contents may be confidential, privileged and protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient. The contents of this e-mail may not be disclosed to, or used by, anyone other than the intended recipient, or stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender immediately. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. -- Andrew Carson - Product Safety Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE
Andrew Don't try to explain that double insulation and earthing are both acceptable alternatives - only 1 persion in 10 will understand and the public won't care! Option 1 - I think knowledgeable technical people in most countries would actually prefer this for the reasons you mention in your 2nd paragraph - but there are very few of these technical people. Option 2 - Messy open to continued confusion for everybody - including your own staff. Option 3 - Provided there is double insulation between the hazardous parts and the metal case, remove the double-insulation mark )not allowed on a Class II product) and provide installation instructions as for a normal earthed product (i.e. MUST be earthed). Then if someone does not earth it the product should still be safe. (This is the way Rich Nute often explains the use of double-insulation in many of HP's earthed products.) My preference is Option 3 - almost the least effort and probably the least customer and marketing hostile reactions (but it will cost a little more for the cable and strain relief). # Additionally it might (or might not?) help with any static control problems - which can get quite nasty in cold areas where the humidity is very low - and with any equipotentialisation problems which could occur because cold-stores are metal walled. Regards John Allen -Original Message- From: Andrew Wood [mailto:andrew.w...@landinst.com] Sent: 05 November 2001 14:27 To: 'emc-pstc' Subject: CLASS 11(DOUBLE INSULATED) 2/3-CORE CABLE All I have a piece of equipment falling under the scope of EN6010. To set the scene it is a low volume product, approx 0.5m cube, stainless steel enclosure and will sit on a bench in food cold storage areas. Mains lead connects via IP68 connector. It incorporates a SMPS for universal mains operation ( current draw approx 0.3A). Because of problems ensuring a reliable earth in some locations for its predecessor, I have specifically designed it to be Class2 (double insulated). Therefore safe for all markets. Now, ironically, I am encountering some unease with the UK sales dept. After all everyone KNOWS that a metal box should be earthed. (I don't dismiss this attitude lightly because it is no doubt shared by some of the customer base.) Technically there is no problem with providing a 3-core cable and connecting up the earth conductor. And after all if 2 levels of protection is good, 3 levels is better. Option 1 is obviously to stick with the design as is and educate sales/customers where necessary. Option 2 is to provide a 3core product for the some markets and a 2core product for others. This goes against the original intention to have a universal product. Is there an option 3? ie provide 3core cable and explain in the manual that product is designed to be safe without an earth but the earth may be fitted if desired. What about the square in square symbol? I'm sure that I'm not the first to be looking at these questions. Any and all thoughts would be appreciated. Best regards, Andy. Andrew Wood Engineer (Specials) Land Instruments International England Please excuse following message automatically inserted by server This e-mail and its contents may be confidential, privileged and protected by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient. The contents of this e-mail may not be disclosed to, or used by, anyone other than the intended recipient, or stored or copied in any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender immediately. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are
