Re: EN61010-1, Symbol 14
:--) Plus, isn't Chinese the most-spoken language in the world? [I am sure I will be corrected if wrong!] ;--) So having everyone else change to Chinese would inconvenience the least number of people? best regards, glyn This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN61010-1, Symbol 14
I read in !emc-pstc that Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com wrote (in 01c304f8$70d7d7a0$78d5c6ac@oemcomputer) about 'EN61010-1, Symbol 14' on Thu, 17 Apr 2003: As an alternative, perhaps this group would work on the use of a universal, worldwide language (English, for instance) which would take care of this problem. Japanese or Chinese is much better. You only need two Kanji characters to convey a three-volume novel. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN61010-1, Symbol 14
Hi Richard: As you say, this web site provides a discussion on the exclamation symbol. However, the discussion is slanted in one direction that not everyone in the safety fraternity would necessarily subscribe to. For instance, I have seen the 'high voltage flash' sign used as a symbol in an internet cafe' - among other misuses. I'm sure that others have examples of symbols defined in IEC 60417 being misused: does this mean that they are no longer usable for safety purposes? The fact of misuse of symbols dilutes the meaning of the symbol. The more the misuse, the less valuable the symbol is for safety purposes. Multiple uses (or misuses) implies multiple meanings. Multiple meanings create confusion in the mind of the beholder. To quote the paper: The power of the safety alert symbol to highlight a safety concern is diluted when the symbol is used for a myriad of lesser tasks. Each non-safety appearance of the symbol produces an anti-teaching effect. We in the product safety industry must be very careful that we use symbols in strict accordance with their definitions. Perhaps you were not intending to endorse the viewpoint expressed? Please confirm. My comment was: For a history and discussion of this symbol, see: This was nothing more than a reference. I feel the reference provides some interesting and useful information in regard of the symbol. I would hope that my statement did not imply endorsement of the proposal presented in the document. I feel the article provides some reasonable ideas for general understanding of symbols along with specific criticisms of the safety alert symbol. I agree with some of the conclusions, but not all. Conclusion 1: Agree. Conclusion 2: Neutral, because the symbol is arbitrary. Conclusion 3: Not applicable; applies to lockout tags. Conclusion 4: Agree with first sentence; disagree with second sentence. Conclusion 5: Emphatically agree. Conslusion 6: Agree. Conclusion 7: Neutral, because this is a proposal. Conclusion 8: Not applicable to endorsement. I do not endorse the proposed international safety alert symbol presented in the paper. I would guess that few or none have endorsed the proposal as it is 2-1/2 years since publication of the paper and I have seen no movement for adoption. The characters (letters) that comprise this message are symbols. We arrange these symbols into words. Each word has a definition; some words have more than one definition. The more definitions a word has, the more chance for confusion as to which definition is applicable in a specific use. Indeed, the definition of words is taken only in the context of a sentence (a group of words) or even a paragraph (a group of sentences). Without a definition and a usage, a word is simply a group of letters. (Stare at one of these words for a few moments and you'll see what I mean.) (Actually, letters and words represent sounds that we utter. Misspelling of words without loss of the sound does not lose the meaning of the words. There is a famous poem about a pea sea spell-checker that demonstrates this concept. A symbol does not represent a sound that we utter; therefore, a symbol is highly subject to misunderstanding.) So, too, for safety and other non-word symbols. Each symbol has a definition. As with words, many of us simply don't look up the definition before we use the symbol (or word). Consequently, symbols are often misused. The more the misuse, the less useful the symbol (or word). Symbols usually don't represent a single word, but rather a phrase or even a complete sentence. Abstract and arbitrary symbols simply don't/can't have obvious definitions. For this reason, we in the safety industry must be very careful to only use safety symbols in strict accordance with their definition. A personal note: Having lived in Spain for almost two years, my wife and I had appliances with nothing but symbols on them. Not having grown up with these symbols as would a local person, we found ourselves quite confused by many of the symbols on our washing machine, dryer, dishwasher, TV, and stereo. Symbols are NOT a panacea for non-language conveyance of information. Nor do the comprise an international language. Best regards, Rich This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line.
RE: EN61010-1, Symbol 14
Richard, et al; The use of 'universal' markings continues to be controversial. In order for markings to be universally accepted there needs to be considerable training as to the correct interpretation as to what the symbol means. This has been confirmed by several studies. Adding any symbol to a symbol library (e.g. IEC 60417, for example) is not sufficient training to get widespread recognition and understanding. Since I'm one of the guys who has pushed the Triodyne article as a point of view that shows that these symbols are not consistently used, I support the article and would like to see less use of symbols alone until there is a well trained, worldwide community of consumer users that understand the significance of the symbols. I favor combining symbols with language markings until this understanding is established. I know that this is a frustration to manufacturers but needs to be done. I know of several innovative ways to do this; it is not impossible. The use of local language markings is not negative when it comes to the consumer or user. These folks feel that any manufacturer who goes to the trouble to do such is really interested in their business. As an alternative, perhaps this group would work on the use of a universal, worldwide language (English, for instance) which would take care of this problem. Thanx to Rich N for pointing this out again. br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Consultant Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
re: EN61010-1, Symbol 14
Rich, As you say, this web site provides a discussion on the exclamation symbol. However, the discussion is slanted in one direction that not everyone in the safety fraternity would necessarily subscribe to. For instance, I have seen the 'high voltage flash' sign used as a symbol in an internet cafe' - among other misuses. I'm sure that others have examples of symbols defined in IEC 60417 being misused: does this mean that they are no longer usable for safety purposes? For international products, the alternative to using safety symbols as defined in IEC standards is text in multiple languages, and that in turn means big labels or lots of country-specific variants. Perhaps you were not intending to endorse the viewpoint expressed? Please confirm. Richard Hughes Safety Answers Limited. From: ri...@sdd.hp.com [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: 15 April 2003 00:01 To: bi...@fastwave.com Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: EN61010-1, Symbol 14 For a history and discussion of this symbol, see: http://www.triodyne.com/SAFETY~1/sb_v17n2.pdf Best regards, Rich This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: EN61010-1, Symbol 14
For a history and discussion of this symbol, see: http://www.triodyne.com/SAFETY~1/sb_v17n2.pdf Best regards, Rich This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
