Re: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts
As I recall, the requirements for label durability came years ago from UL, where the original test specified kerosene. As the standards evolved, propagated and became international, the term kerosene was complained about since it varied worldwide. In attempts to be more specific, someone came up with the description which now appears in IEC 60950 clause 1.7.3 (for kerosene I assumed). It seemed acceptable and none of us had the expertise to improve or change it. Describing petroleum distillates is a pretty vague problem anyway. It's a lot like trying to chemically describe smoke. It depends on the source, the cracking process, the distillate fractions, etc. In general, the lighter the distillate, the better it will dissolve some things. You can get anything from wax to lighter fluid to gases from the same process. You might be able to get a chemical supplier to match the description from the standard, you may want to try something rather worst case like lighter fluid, but your best bet is to get agreement on what to use between you and the agency you are certifying with. Bob Johnson --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts
>>We might be trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here. I agree that a mountain is being made of a molehill - however, I think the TC made the mountain, not those of us who have tried to interpret the mountain. For my part, I have posted this exact question in the past and found the same spread of answers. So, I now use isopropyl alcohol as it is a harsher solvent than kerosene, and being an electronics manufacturer, we have boodles of it around here. If it stands up to the alcohol rub it will take the kerosene rub. Also, we manufacture some medical device products, and those standards call out alcohol for the rub test. (IEC601.1 clause 6.1(z)). Doug Massey LXE, Inc. -Original Message- From: geor...@lexmark.com [mailto:geor...@lexmark.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 4:29 PM To: kmccormick...@hotmail.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts We might be trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here. The basic intent of the various standards is to ensure that power rating information is not easily rubbed off. The international standards IEC/EN60950 (sec. 1.7.15) stipulate 15 second rub tests using water and "petroleum spirits". The makeup of these spirits is stipulated. However, if a label withstands the rub test with any of the usual "household" spirits, e.g. kerosene, isopropyl alcohol, rubbing alcohol, lamp oil, lighter fluid, gasoline etc., it will probably withstand the test same with any of the uniquely specified petroleum spirits. I assume each of us has at one time tried to remove printing or the complete label from a jar or bottle for other uses. My own experience is that if one "spirit" will work, so will the others. Some (gasoline) will work faster than others (lighter fluid). Conversely, if a randomly chosen spirit will not work, it is time to try a knife blade or blow torch (just kidding about the torch). George Alspaugh kmccormickinc%hotmail@interlock.lexmark.com on 01/02/2001 03:40:42 PM Please respond to kmccormickinc%hotmail@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts Thanks guys...BUT, I am not trying to convince UL that I am correct. This is all internal to the company I am working with. Just to give you an idea of how confusing this issue is, I have privately received responses stating that all the following are acceptable: Kerosene Isopropyl alcohol Rubbing Alcahol Lamp Oil Hexane Now I am not a chemical expert, but the chemical properties of these chemicals are not similar to one another (the simplest comparison is the boiling point, the above range from 60C - 300C). Calling UL and asking them what they use is easy...the hard part is proving that whatever the subject chemical is, it complies with the standard. Just wondering if anyone has had this experience before. >From: Gary McInturff >To: "'oover...@lexmark.com'" , >kmccormick...@hotmail.com >CC: emc-p...@ieee.org >Subject: RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts >Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:24:17 -0800 > >Not only cheap, but sometimes it is much easier just to do it their way >than >argue with them that you material should or should not be acceptable. Pick >your battles. Let them win this one. >Gary > >-Original Message- >From: oover...@lexmark.com [mailto:oover...@lexmark.com] >Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:46 AM >To: kmccormick...@hotmail.com >Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org >Subject: Re: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts > > >From the UL Test Data Sheets provided to me by my UL engineering office, >the >material listed in the text of the test data sheet is kerosene. >I don't know what the actual physical characteristics are, but if UL uses >this >for their test I would assume that it is acceptable for me to use. >Kerosene is an easy product to obtain and is not that expensive. > >I have included an excerpt of the UL 1950 test data sheet that I was given >by >UL. > >Oscar > ># Excerpt from the UL 1950 Test Data Sheets # > >1.7.15 - PERMANENCE OF MARKING TEST: > >METHOD > > A sample of the marking label was subjected to this test. The >surface >of >each marking as noted below was rubbed by hand for a period of 15 seconds >with a >water soaked cloth, and again for a period of 15 seconds with a cloth >soaked >with the petroleum spirit noted below. > >RESULTS > >TEST CONDITIONS: > >Use of Marking _ > >Material_ > >Held by _ > >Applied Surface Material_ > > >OBSERVATI
RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts
FYI: >From Webster's Third New International Dictionary: STODDARD SOLVENT: "a straight run petroleum naphtha fraction of low flammability containing principally aliphatic hydrocarbons and conforming to specifications (as water-white color, distillation range 300°F to 400°F, and a flash point over 100°F) for use chiefly in dry cleaning - compare PETROLEUM SPRIT" PETROLEUM SPRIT: "a flammable petroleum distillate that boils lower than kerosene and is suitable for use as a solvent and thinner esp. for paints and varnishes - compare NAPHTHA Will this help? Also - Back on 10-10-00 Ned Divine (in this forum) stated that IEC60650 requirement is for the use of aliphatic solvent hexane. He also stated that it is available through Aldrich Chemical #20,875-2. He also stated that the CAS # is 110-5A-3. -Original Message- From: Hans Mellberg [mailto:ha...@cisco.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 4:50 PM To: Kenneth McCormick; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts At 01:40 PM 1/2/01 -0700, Kenneth McCormick wrote: >Thanks guys...BUT, I am not trying to convince UL that I am correct. This >is all internal to the company I am working with. There are at least four chemical compositions that "qualify" for the term "petroleum spirits" You can find their specification at the ASTM website http://www.astm.org/DATABASE.CART/PAGES/D235.htm The spec you want is: D235-99 Standard Specification for Mineral Spirits (Petroleum Spirits) (Hydrocarbon Dry Cleaning Solvent) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts
I think, that there is substantial difference in the products that we use on the glues that affix plastic and paper labels. We currently experiment with applying "label remover" , a product sold to remove paper and plastic labels from furniture. it bears no specific warning label but the "square cross" indicator for poisonous. It smells like *any* mineral spirit, kerosene, lamp oil or other liquid recommended for testing. It makes a hell of a difference however in removing labels. I think it is not that thumb if I think this product is just a mixture of many *alike* liquids such as used for testing and enumerated before. The label (!) says : "hydrocarbures" which I understand is a very no descriptive term. Any comment ? Regards, Gert Gremmen, (Ing) ce-test, qualified testing === Web presence http://www.cetest.nl CE-shop http://www.cetest.nl/ce_shop.htm /-/ Compliance testing is our core business /-/ === >>-Original Message- >>From: owner-emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf >>Of Hans Mellberg >>Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:50 PM >>To: Kenneth McCormick; emc-p...@ieee.org >>Subject: RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts >> >> >> >>At 01:40 PM 1/2/01 -0700, Kenneth McCormick wrote: >> >>>Thanks guys...BUT, I am not trying to convince UL that I am >>correct. This >>>is all internal to the company I am working with. >> >>There are at least four chemical compositions that "qualify" for the term >>"petroleum spirits" You can find their specification at the ASTM website >> >>http://www.astm.org/DATABASE.CART/PAGES/D235.htm >> >>The spec you want is: >> >>D235-99 Standard Specification for Mineral Spirits (Petroleum Spirits) >>(Hydrocarbon Dry Cleaning Solvent) >> >>--- >>This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety >>Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. >> >>To cancel your subscription, send mail to: >> majord...@ieee.org >>with the single line: >> unsubscribe emc-pstc >> >>For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com >> Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org >> >>For policy questions, send mail to: >> Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org >> >> <>
RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts
At 01:40 PM 1/2/01 -0700, Kenneth McCormick wrote: Thanks guys...BUT, I am not trying to convince UL that I am correct. This is all internal to the company I am working with. There are at least four chemical compositions that "qualify" for the term "petroleum spirits" You can find their specification at the ASTM website http://www.astm.org/DATABASE.CART/PAGES/D235.htm The spec you want is: D235-99 Standard Specification for Mineral Spirits (Petroleum Spirits) (Hydrocarbon Dry Cleaning Solvent) --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts
We might be trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here. The basic intent of the various standards is to ensure that power rating information is not easily rubbed off. The international standards IEC/EN60950 (sec. 1.7.15) stipulate 15 second rub tests using water and "petroleum spirits". The makeup of these spirits is stipulated. However, if a label withstands the rub test with any of the usual "household" spirits, e.g. kerosene, isopropyl alcohol, rubbing alcohol, lamp oil, lighter fluid, gasoline etc., it will probably withstand the test same with any of the uniquely specified petroleum spirits. I assume each of us has at one time tried to remove printing or the complete label from a jar or bottle for other uses. My own experience is that if one "spirit" will work, so will the others. Some (gasoline) will work faster than others (lighter fluid). Conversely, if a randomly chosen spirit will not work, it is time to try a knife blade or blow torch (just kidding about the torch). George Alspaugh kmccormickinc%hotmail@interlock.lexmark.com on 01/02/2001 03:40:42 PM Please respond to kmccormickinc%hotmail@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts Thanks guys...BUT, I am not trying to convince UL that I am correct. This is all internal to the company I am working with. Just to give you an idea of how confusing this issue is, I have privately received responses stating that all the following are acceptable: Kerosene Isopropyl alcohol Rubbing Alcahol Lamp Oil Hexane Now I am not a chemical expert, but the chemical properties of these chemicals are not similar to one another (the simplest comparison is the boiling point, the above range from 60C - 300C). Calling UL and asking them what they use is easy...the hard part is proving that whatever the subject chemical is, it complies with the standard. Just wondering if anyone has had this experience before. >From: Gary McInturff >To: "'oover...@lexmark.com'" , >kmccormick...@hotmail.com >CC: emc-p...@ieee.org >Subject: RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts >Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:24:17 -0800 > >Not only cheap, but sometimes it is much easier just to do it their way >than >argue with them that you material should or should not be acceptable. Pick >your battles. Let them win this one. >Gary > >-Original Message- >From: oover...@lexmark.com [mailto:oover...@lexmark.com] >Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:46 AM >To: kmccormick...@hotmail.com >Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org >Subject: Re: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts > > >From the UL Test Data Sheets provided to me by my UL engineering office, >the >material listed in the text of the test data sheet is kerosene. >I don't know what the actual physical characteristics are, but if UL uses >this >for their test I would assume that it is acceptable for me to use. >Kerosene is an easy product to obtain and is not that expensive. > >I have included an excerpt of the UL 1950 test data sheet that I was given >by >UL. > >Oscar > ># Excerpt from the UL 1950 Test Data Sheets # > >1.7.15 - PERMANENCE OF MARKING TEST: > >METHOD > > A sample of the marking label was subjected to this test. The >surface >of >each marking as noted below was rubbed by hand for a period of 15 seconds >with a >water soaked cloth, and again for a period of 15 seconds with a cloth >soaked >with the petroleum spirit noted below. > >RESULTS > >TEST CONDITIONS: > >Use of Marking _ > >Material_ > >Held by _ > >Applied Surface Material_ > > >OBSERVATIONS: > Water Kerosene > >Any Damage? _ _ > >Legible? _ _ > >Curled? _ _ > >Edge Lifted? _ _ > >Easily Removed Intact?_ _ > > >The marking was/was not durable and legible. > >Comments:___ > >_ > > Document: 060.Eng > > ># End of Excerpt from UL 1950 # --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts
Thanks guys...BUT, I am not trying to convince UL that I am correct. This is all internal to the company I am working with. Just to give you an idea of how confusing this issue is, I have privately received responses stating that all the following are acceptable: Kerosene Isopropyl alcohol Rubbing Alcahol Lamp Oil Hexane Now I am not a chemical expert, but the chemical properties of these chemicals are not similar to one another (the simplest comparison is the boiling point, the above range from 60C - 300C). Calling UL and asking them what they use is easy...the hard part is proving that whatever the subject chemical is, it complies with the standard. Just wondering if anyone has had this experience before. From: Gary McInturff To: "'oover...@lexmark.com'" , kmccormick...@hotmail.com CC: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:24:17 -0800 Not only cheap, but sometimes it is much easier just to do it their way than argue with them that you material should or should not be acceptable. Pick your battles. Let them win this one. Gary -Original Message- From: oover...@lexmark.com [mailto:oover...@lexmark.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:46 AM To: kmccormick...@hotmail.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts From the UL Test Data Sheets provided to me by my UL engineering office, the material listed in the text of the test data sheet is kerosene. I don't know what the actual physical characteristics are, but if UL uses this for their test I would assume that it is acceptable for me to use. Kerosene is an easy product to obtain and is not that expensive. I have included an excerpt of the UL 1950 test data sheet that I was given by UL. Oscar # Excerpt from the UL 1950 Test Data Sheets # 1.7.15 - PERMANENCE OF MARKING TEST: METHOD A sample of the marking label was subjected to this test. The surface of each marking as noted below was rubbed by hand for a period of 15 seconds with a water soaked cloth, and again for a period of 15 seconds with a cloth soaked with the petroleum spirit noted below. RESULTS TEST CONDITIONS: Use of Marking _ Material_ Held by _ Applied Surface Material_ OBSERVATIONS: Water Kerosene Any Damage? _ _ Legible? _ _ Curled? _ _ Edge Lifted? _ _ Easily Removed Intact?_ _ The marking was/was not durable and legible. Comments:___ _ Document: 060.Eng # End of Excerpt from UL 1950 # kmccormickinc%hotmail@interlock.lexmark.com on 01/02/2001 01:12:36 PM Please respond to kmccormickinc%hotmail@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts
Not only cheap, but sometimes it is much easier just to do it their way than argue with them that you material should or should not be acceptable. Pick your battles. Let them win this one. Gary -Original Message- From: oover...@lexmark.com [mailto:oover...@lexmark.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:46 AM To: kmccormick...@hotmail.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts >From the UL Test Data Sheets provided to me by my UL engineering office, the material listed in the text of the test data sheet is kerosene. I don't know what the actual physical characteristics are, but if UL uses this for their test I would assume that it is acceptable for me to use. Kerosene is an easy product to obtain and is not that expensive. I have included an excerpt of the UL 1950 test data sheet that I was given by UL. Oscar # Excerpt from the UL 1950 Test Data Sheets # 1.7.15 - PERMANENCE OF MARKING TEST: METHOD A sample of the marking label was subjected to this test. The surface of each marking as noted below was rubbed by hand for a period of 15 seconds with a water soaked cloth, and again for a period of 15 seconds with a cloth soaked with the petroleum spirit noted below. RESULTS TEST CONDITIONS: Use of Marking _ Material_ Held by _ Applied Surface Material_ OBSERVATIONS: Water Kerosene Any Damage? _ _ Legible? _ _ Curled? _ _ Edge Lifted? _ _ Easily Removed Intact?_ _ The marking was/was not durable and legible. Comments:___ _ Document: 060.Eng # End of Excerpt from UL 1950 # kmccormickinc%hotmail@interlock.lexmark.com on 01/02/2001 01:12:36 PM Please respond to kmccormickinc%hotmail@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Re: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts
>From the UL Test Data Sheets provided to me by my UL engineering office, the material listed in the text of the test data sheet is kerosene. I don't know what the actual physical characteristics are, but if UL uses this for their test I would assume that it is acceptable for me to use. Kerosene is an easy product to obtain and is not that expensive. I have included an excerpt of the UL 1950 test data sheet that I was given by UL. Oscar # Excerpt from the UL 1950 Test Data Sheets # 1.7.15 - PERMANENCE OF MARKING TEST: METHOD A sample of the marking label was subjected to this test. The surface of each marking as noted below was rubbed by hand for a period of 15 seconds with a water soaked cloth, and again for a period of 15 seconds with a cloth soaked with the petroleum spirit noted below. RESULTS TEST CONDITIONS: Use of Marking _ Material_ Held by _ Applied Surface Material_ OBSERVATIONS: Water Kerosene Any Damage? _ _ Legible? _ _ Curled? _ _ Edge Lifted? _ _ Easily Removed Intact?_ _ The marking was/was not durable and legible. Comments:___ _ Document: 060.Eng # End of Excerpt from UL 1950 # kmccormickinc%hotmail@interlock.lexmark.com on 01/02/2001 01:12:36 PM Please respond to kmccormickinc%hotmail@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: Seeking assistance from Chemical Experts Recently, I was asked to show that the hexane that I was using for UL1950 and related standards (Marking durability test of 1.7.15) infact complied with the requirements in the standard, Specifically: "The petroleum spirit to be used for the test is aliphatic solvent hexane having a maximum aromatics content of a 0.1% by volume, a kauri-butanol value of 29, an initial boiling point of approximately 65°C, a dry point of approximately 69°C and a mass per unit volume of approximately 0.7 kg/l." I am communicating with the company that I purchased the chemical from, and all I get is the MSDS Sheets which do not have all of the above information. Has anyone else had to locate these specifications? How did you go about obtaining them. I am not opposed to having a lab test for these characteristics, but I have no clue where to begin with such a test...chemistry was NOT my best subject! I know that this conversation came up in the past and I believe everyone agreed that standard hexane would suffice...I just need to be able to show that hexane meets the above requirements. Thanks in advance, Kenneth _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
