RE: definitions?
Since we are dealing with management, i.e. power, the 126dB$ is likely to be based on a lot of dBWhat?s dB$ = 10 log (dBWants/dBWhats) Or we could simply do as a friend of mine does and refer to dB(dollar). What's that 10 meter chamber cost? About 126 dB(dollar). ;) Ghery But I always thought that money was power. Maybe you meant 63 dB$. Ed = Best Regards Hans Mellberg Regulatory Compliance EMC Design Services Consultant By the Pacific Coast next to Silicon Valley, Santa Cruz, CA, USA office:831-454-9450, cell:408-507-9694, fax:831-454-0755 __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: definitions?
I read in !emc-pstc that Price, Ed ed.pr...@cubic.com wrote (in b78135310217d511907c0090273f5190d0b...@curly.ds.cubic.com) about 'definitions?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: But I always thought that money was power. Maybe you meant 63 dB$. No, the chamber was made to audiophile specifications (;-). There is more, though. Money = power, but also time = money. So time = power. Energy = time x power = power x power and is therefore measured in square watts. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: definitions?
I read in !emc-pstc that Jacob Schanker schan...@frontiernet.net wrote (in 000c01c27c59$10ee9540$6401a8c0@net1) about 'definitions?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: How about SI for money - Megadollar, gigadollar, teradollars? The fundamental metric unit of moola is the 'buck'. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: definitions?
-Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 12:35 PM To: 'Jacob Schanker'; Bill Flanigan; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: definitions? Or we could simply do as a friend of mine does and refer to dB(dollar). What's that 10 meter chamber cost? About 126 dB(dollar). ;) Ghery But I always thought that money was power. Maybe you meant 63 dB$. Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: definitions?
I read in !emc-pstc that Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote (in 0h4j00egvta...@mtaout03.icomcast.net) about 'definitions?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: Excellent point. Don't the Brits refer to 1,000,000,000 as a milliard, or is that continental usage only? Continental. Forget the old 'Imperial' billion; it's not compatible with metric prefixes and should be allowed to fade away. If in doubt, write 10^9. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: definitions?
Or we could simply do as a friend of mine does and refer to dB(dollar). What's that 10 meter chamber cost? About 126 dB(dollar). ;) Ghery -Original Message- From: Jacob Schanker [mailto:schan...@frontiernet.net] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 12:02 PM To: Bill Flanigan; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: definitions? Bill is corrrect, of course, in pointing out this potential source of confusion. Perhaps it explains why the UK has a hard time matching US expenditures - they have to spend 1000 times more to match US billion for billion. Actually, I often hear Europeans use the term thousand million to mean 10^9, which avoids confusion. But there is still the matter of a Trillion, which in US parlance is 10^12. Other terms sometimes used: zillion, gazillion. How about SI for money - Megadollar, gigadollar, teradollars? Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Tel: 585 442 3909 Fax: 585 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: Bill Flanigan bflani...@ameritherm.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 12:48 PM Subject: Re: definitions? These definitions could be a problem(dictionary.com) bil·lion n. 1.) The cardinal number equal to 109. 2.) Chiefly British. The cardinal number equal to 1012. 3.) An indefinitely large number. WmFlanigan --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: definitions?
Bill is corrrect, of course, in pointing out this potential source of confusion. Perhaps it explains why the UK has a hard time matching US expenditures - they have to spend 1000 times more to match US billion for billion. Actually, I often hear Europeans use the term thousand million to mean 10^9, which avoids confusion. But there is still the matter of a Trillion, which in US parlance is 10^12. Other terms sometimes used: zillion, gazillion. How about SI for money - Megadollar, gigadollar, teradollars? Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Tel: 585 442 3909 Fax: 585 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: Bill Flanigan bflani...@ameritherm.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 12:48 PM Subject: Re: definitions? These definitions could be a problem(dictionary.com) bil·lion n. 1.) The cardinal number equal to 109. 2.) Chiefly British. The cardinal number equal to 1012. 3.) An indefinitely large number. WmFlanigan --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: definitions?
Milliard (F/Nrw/Dan.) or miljard (Sw.) stands for Billion. --- Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote: Excellent point. Don't the Brits refer to 1,000,000,000 as a milliard, or is that continental usage only? -- = Best Regards Hans Mellberg Regulatory Compliance EMC Design Services Consultant By the Pacific Coast next to Silicon Valley, Santa Cruz, CA, USA office:831-454-9450, cell:408-507-9694, fax:831-454-0755 __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: definitions?
Excellent point. Don't the Brits refer to 1,000,000,000 as a milliard, or is that continental usage only? -- From: Bill Flanigan bflani...@ameritherm.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: definitions? Date: Fri, Oct 25, 2002, 11:48 AM These definitions could be a problem(dictionary.com) bil·lion n. 1.) The cardinal number equal to 109. 2.) Chiefly British. The cardinal number equal to 1012. 3.) An indefinitely large number. WmFlanigan --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: definitions?
These definitions could be a problem(dictionary.com) bil·lion n. 1.) The cardinal number equal to 109. 2.) Chiefly British. The cardinal number equal to 1012. 3.) An indefinitely large number. WmFlanigan --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definitions - Safety Critical, Safety Circuit
My experience agrees with yours Gert - there is no simple formula to follow. In my early days as a PSE I tried to draw a flow-diagram of product safety assessment and decisions. On the first line I had about 20 options and each of those dropped down to about 20 more - many of which interlocked.after a couple of weeks I gave up. I believe there is a real danger when one tries to provide general guidance. There will always be exceptions - hence standardization and harmonization will (I believe) never satisfy all conditions. When I write product descriptions I deliberately over specify the safety aspects of critical components - or systems. There is one reason for this - to ensure that everyone on the project understands the impact of changing components. When the PD is cut down my the agency I send a file copy of my original for the manufacturing/design file. That way there is a history. (e.g. if I use an HB enclosure because the product if powered from and SELVEL PSU with current fold-back, then that goes into the general description AND the description of the PSU.) I get despondent reading some agency reports to do not include that level of detail - but a telephone call to the manufacturer usually gets the answer. I know that not everyone does writes descriptions the way I do and I am not suggesting that it is the best way (or ought to be standardized) - it just happens to work for me and my clients. Best regards Gregg P.O. Box 310 Reedville, Virginia 22539 Phone: (804) 453-3141 Fax: (804) 453-9039 Web:www.test4safety.com -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of CE-test - Ing. Gert Gremmen - ce-marking and more... Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:13 AM To: Doug McKean; EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: RE: Definitions - Safety Critical, Safety Circuit Hi Dough, Group, I agree that is approach is much more simple to understand, but most definitions up to now have the problem of defining A LOT of components as safety critical. The safety critical parts need much more attention then just specification and name it. They need to be maintained in brand , type and material f.a. If an ECO (Engineering Change Order) is made, replacing a safety critical component needs re-assessment of the whole safety concept. Safety related components need however just fulfill their safety specs and they will do the job, and ordinary components may be replaced at will by the manufacturer by any other part that does the functional job. A similar reasoning can be made to measures, procedures, circuits (build from components) and construction. The approch i treid in an eralier mail made use of the double layer concept in safety (electrical mechanical chemical radiation heat and fire) to identify components. Those who bridge two layers of safety, or can invalidate the safety of a circuit are Safety Critical. (f.a. a cap that goes from hazardous voltageto an ungrounded accessible part) Those that bridge only one layer are Safety Related. (f.a. one of the two insulations in double insulation) Those that are redundant (from safety point of view) are ordinary components. What do you think of this: can this approach simplify the job ? Regards, Gert Gremmen, (Ing) ce-test, qualified testing === Web presence http://www.cetest.nl CE-shop http://www.cetest.nl/ce_shop.htm /-/ Compliance testing is our core business /-/ === -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Doug McKean Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 4:07 AM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: Definitions - Safety Critical, Safety Circuit Couldn't we just go to the front of the UL1950/60950 standard and agree that a safety critical part or device or circuit or construction is simply something used ... to prevent injury or damage due to: - Electric shock hazard - Energy hazards - Fire hazard - Mechanical hazard - Heat hazard - Radiation hazard - Chemical hazard ... Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server
RE: Definitions - Safety Critical, Safety Circuit
Hi Dough, Group, I agree that is approach is much more simple to understand, but most definitions up to now have the problem of defining A LOT of components as safety critical. The safety critical parts need much more attention then just specification and name it. They need to be maintained in brand , type and material f.a. If an ECO (Engineering Change Order) is made, replacing a safety critical component needs re-assessment of the whole safety concept. Safety related components need however just fulfill their safety specs and they will do the job, and ordinary components may be replaced at will by the manufacturer by any other part that does the functional job. A similar reasoning can be made to measures, procedures, circuits (build from components) and construction. The approch i treid in an eralier mail made use of the double layer concept in safety (electrical mechanical chemical radiation heat and fire) to identify components. Those who bridge two layers of safety, or can invalidate the safety of a circuit are Safety Critical. (f.a. a cap that goes from hazardous voltageto an ungrounded accessible part) Those that bridge only one layer are Safety Related. (f.a. one of the two insulations in double insulation) Those that are redundant (from safety point of view) are ordinary components. What do you think of this: can this approach simplify the job ? Regards, Gert Gremmen, (Ing) ce-test, qualified testing === Web presence http://www.cetest.nl CE-shop http://www.cetest.nl/ce_shop.htm /-/ Compliance testing is our core business /-/ === -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Doug McKean Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 4:07 AM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: Definitions - Safety Critical, Safety Circuit Couldn't we just go to the front of the UL1950/60950 standard and agree that a safety critical part or device or circuit or construction is simply something used ... to prevent injury or damage due to: - Electric shock hazard - Energy hazards - Fire hazard - Mechanical hazard - Heat hazard - Radiation hazard - Chemical hazard ... Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. attachment: Gert Gremmen.vcf
Re: Definitions - Safety Critical, Safety Circuit
Couldn't we just go to the front of the UL1950/60950 standard and agree that a safety critical part or device or circuit or construction is simply something used ... to prevent injury or damage due to: - Electric shock hazard - Energy hazards - Fire hazard - Mechanical hazard - Heat hazard - Radiation hazard - Chemical hazard Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
