RE: plenum ratings
From: John Woodgate Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 11:40 AM It may well need to maintain its shape as well as not burning. For example, PTFE won't burn, but melts. UL 2043 looks at heat release and smoke developed. Anything that can retain its shape after this testing provides a bonus feature. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield ___ _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
RE: plenum ratings
Pete, To be clear, you are asking about the actual plenum, not an electrical component or wire installed in the plenum. Correct? If so, this would not even be an electrical or telecom question, but a question on the flammability of building construction materials. You would probably find this in catalogues such as UL's red book or Factory Mutual's directory. The same directory that gives you fire door fire ratings. I could be wrong. Regards, Don Gies, N.C.E Senior Product Compliance Engineer Alcatel-Lucent Holmdel, NJ 07733 USA From: Pete Perkins [mailto:peperkin...@cs.com] Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 11:43 AM To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Subject: plenum ratings PSNet, The briefest requests seem to generate the most questions. What do we collectively know about needed ratings for plastic plenums? I believe this is more for electrical than telecomm, but that's not clear yet. Load me up; your comments are appreciated. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
Re: plenum ratings
In message daa7e0c23f285e409c808f9d497609ba0176a...@exch2.trpz.com, dated Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Marko Radojicic ma...@trapezenetworks.com writes: It would be great to save money and be compliant. I think I'll do an experiment or two in that direction. It may well need to maintain its shape as well as not burning. For example, PTFE won't burn, but melts. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk There are benefits from being irrational - just ask the square root of 2. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
RE: plenum ratings
Marko, Intertek Testing Services (Formerly Omega Point Laboratories) in Elmendorf (near San Antonio) Texas is A2LA accredited to UL2043. Best regards, David David K. Bell Senior Compliance Engineer Boston Acoustics Inc. 300 Jubilee Drive Peabody, MA 01960-4030 Tel: 978-538-5177 Fax: 978-538-6226 Email: db...@bostona.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Marko Radojicic Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:31 PM To: McInturff Gary; Tarver, Peter; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings I'm not sure the correct question is being asked. There are no plastic ratings that allow you to declare your product to be Plenum Rated. The requirement is to pass the UL2043 standard. (UL Schaumburg (sp?) is the only lab that I've found who can perform this test. If your lab also has this capability, please contact me off-line.) This is analogous to the GR-63 fire spread requirements for those working in Telecom. There is a lot of value using the most fire retardant plastics available but that does *not* ensure you will pass the Verizon requirements. I'll share some painful development scars with the group - This is an incredibly difficult test to pass if you have plastic parts. We have found exactly *one* polymer that allows us to pass. Your results may vary based upon your product! Good luck, Marko From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of McInturff Gary Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:52 AM To: Tarver, Peter; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings I don't have the NFPA reference at hand, but would it possible if using 94V5? It is intended for use, at least in 90650, is for a fire enclosure embedded into building structure and non-movable. Combustable seems pretty clear - although some metals burn under the right conditions and thicknesses. Gary From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tarver, Peter Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:19 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings From: Pete Perkins Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:43 AM What do we collectively know about needed ratings for plastic plenums? I believe this is more for electrical than telecomm, but that's not clear yet. Pete - Considering that combustible materials are forbidden to be placed in most ducts and plenums in the CEC and US NEC, I would think the likelihood of a plastic plenum being safety certifiable is negligible. Refer to NFPA 70, Section 300.22. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp
Re: plenum ratings
In message be3336be85968d49be01e66d6e365b1e01b5a...@sjc1amfpew01.am.sanm.corp, dated Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Tarver, Peter peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com writes: OK, four types of ducts and plenums. If it quacts like a duct... (;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk There are benefits from being irrational - just ask the square root of 2. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
Re: plenum ratings
In message be3336be85968d49be01e66d6e365b1e01b5a...@sjc1amfpew01.am.sanm.corp, dated Fri, 16 Mar 2007, Tarver, Peter peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com writes: From: John Woodgate Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:14 AM McInturff Gary writes: Combustable seems pretty clear - although some metals burn under the right conditions and thicknesses. All bar eight, I think, given enough thermal encouragement. Ag, Au, Ru, Rh, Pd, Os, Ir, Pt. Or with very little encouragement if divided finely enough, as Al, or placement in a highly oxygenated environment (early Apollo mission disasters). The eight I nominated are those that don't burn. I think. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk There are benefits from being irrational - just ask the square root of 2. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
RE: plenum ratings
Peter, Very cool idea going in the opposite direction by using lowest flammability plastics! It would be great to save money and be compliant. I think I'll do an experiment or two in that direction. Thanks, Marko From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tarver, Peter Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:44 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings Hi, Marko. From: Marko Radojicic Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:31 AM The requirement is to pass the UL2043 standard. (UL Schaumburg (sp?) is the only lab that I've found who can perform this test. We went to UL's Northbrook office for UL 2043 testing. Schaumburg may be where UL's NBK office hides their burning characteristics test facility. This is analogous to the GR-63 fire spread requirements for those working in Telecom. There is a lot of value using the most fire retardant plastics available but that does *not* ensure you will pass the Verizon requirements. In fact, the smoke developed ratings readily increase with more flame retardant. Similarly, the corrosive nature of the products of combustion are worsened by some flame retardants. I'll share some painful development scars with the group - This is an incredibly difficult test to pass if you have plastic parts. We have found exactly *one* polymer that allows us to pass. We tried several enclosure materials in our UL 2043 foray. Only one passed, it having the lowest flammability classification of the bunch. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
RE: plenum ratings
From: Tarver, Peter Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:25 AM NEC §300.22 is clear. It's divided into three types of ducts and plenums. OK, four types of ducts and plenums. Peter CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield ___ _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
RE: plenum ratings
Hi, Marko. From: Marko Radojicic Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:31 AM The requirement is to pass the UL2043 standard. (UL Schaumburg (sp?) is the only lab that I've found who can perform this test. We went to UL's Northbrook office for UL 2043 testing. Schaumburg may be where UL's NBK office hides their burning characteristics test facility. This is analogous to the GR-63 fire spread requirements for those working in Telecom. There is a lot of value using the most fire retardant plastics available but that does *not* ensure you will pass the Verizon requirements. In fact, the smoke developed ratings readily increase with more flame retardant. Similarly, the corrosive nature of the products of combustion are worsened by some flame retardants. I'll share some painful development scars with the group - This is an incredibly difficult test to pass if you have plastic parts. We have found exactly *one* polymer that allows us to pass. We tried several enclosure materials in our UL 2043 foray. Only one passed, it having the lowest flammability classification of the bunch. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield ___ _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
RE: plenum ratings
From: John Woodgate Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:14 AM McInturff Gary writes: Combustable seems pretty clear - although some metals burn under the right conditions and thicknesses. All bar eight, I think, given enough thermal encouragement. Ag, Au, Ru, Rh, Pd, Os, Ir, Pt. Or with very little encouragement if divided finely enough, as Al, or placement in a highly oxygenated environment (early Apollo mission disasters). Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield ___ _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
RE: plenum ratings
Peter, The comment I made earlier dove-tails into 300.22(c) of the NEC. Thanks for looking up the exact references. Cheers, Marko From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tarver, Peter Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:25 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings Gary - NEC §300.22 is clear. It's divided into three types of ducts and plenums. 300.22(a) covers ducts for dust and wood stock. Absolutely zero electrical items are allowed in these ducts. 300.22(b) covers duct and plenums for environmental air. A limited amount of electrical wiring methods are allowed and all must be inside metal. The only electrical devices allowed are those that directly sense or act on the air (temperature and flow rate transducers, automatic plenum gates, etc.) 300.22(c) covers other spaces for environmental air. These spaces are akin to the spaces above false ceilings that are used as return air ducts. Here is where electrical devices evaluated against UL 2043 can be placed, plenum rated power and signal cables evaluated against UL 910 can be run. 300.22(d) refers the reader to Article 645 for items placed under raised floors in data processing centers. The UL 94 test methods address only small scale properties. Large scale properties are addressed by flame spread and smoke developed testing associated with Steiner tunnel and radiant heat test methods. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: McInturff Gary [mailto:gmcintu...@spraycool.com] Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:52 AM To: Tarver, Peter; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings I don't have the NFPA reference at hand, but would it possible if using 94V5? It is intended for use, at least in 90650, is for a fire enclosure embedded into building structure and non-movable. Combustable seems pretty clear - although some metals burn under the right conditions and thicknesses. Gary -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tarver, Peter Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:19 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings From: Pete Perkins Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:43 AM What do we collectively know about needed ratings for plastic plenums? I believe this is more for electrical than telecomm, but that's not clear yet. Pete - Considering that combustible materials are forbidden to be placed in most ducts and plenums in the CEC and US NEC, I would think the likelihood of a plastic plenum being safety certifiable is negligible. Refer to NFPA 70, Section 300.22. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield ___ _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions
RE: plenum ratings
I'm not sure the correct question is being asked. There are no plastic ratings that allow you to declare your product to be Plenum Rated. The requirement is to pass the UL2043 standard. (UL Schaumburg (sp?) is the only lab that I've found who can perform this test. If your lab also has this capability, please contact me off-line.) This is analogous to the GR-63 fire spread requirements for those working in Telecom. There is a lot of value using the most fire retardant plastics available but that does *not* ensure you will pass the Verizon requirements. I'll share some painful development scars with the group - This is an incredibly difficult test to pass if you have plastic parts. We have found exactly *one* polymer that allows us to pass. Your results may vary based upon your product! Good luck, Marko From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of McInturff Gary Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:52 AM To: Tarver, Peter; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings I don't have the NFPA reference at hand, but would it possible if using 94V5? It is intended for use, at least in 90650, is for a fire enclosure embedded into building structure and non-movable. Combustable seems pretty clear - although some metals burn under the right conditions and thicknesses. Gary From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tarver, Peter Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:19 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings From: Pete Perkins Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:43 AM What do we collectively know about needed ratings for plastic plenums? I believe this is more for electrical than telecomm, but that's not clear yet. Pete - Considering that combustible materials are forbidden to be placed in most ducts and plenums in the CEC and US NEC, I would think the likelihood of a plastic plenum being safety certifiable is negligible. Refer to NFPA 70, Section 300.22. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions
RE: plenum ratings
Gary - NEC §300.22 is clear. It's divided into three types of ducts and plenums. 300.22(a) covers ducts for dust and wood stock. Absolutely zero electrical items are allowed in these ducts. 300.22(b) covers duct and plenums for environmental air. A limited amount of electrical wiring methods are allowed and all must be inside metal. The only electrical devices allowed are those that directly sense or act on the air (temperature and flow rate transducers, automatic plenum gates, etc.) 300.22(c) covers other spaces for environmental air. These spaces are akin to the spaces above false ceilings that are used as return air ducts. Here is where electrical devices evaluated against UL 2043 can be placed, plenum rated power and signal cables evaluated against UL 910 can be run. 300.22(d) refers the reader to Article 645 for items placed under raised floors in data processing centers. The UL 94 test methods address only small scale properties. Large scale properties are addressed by flame spread and smoke developed testing associated with Steiner tunnel and radiant heat test methods. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: McInturff Gary [mailto:gmcintu...@spraycool.com] Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:52 AM To: Tarver, Peter; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings I don't have the NFPA reference at hand, but would it possible if using 94V5? It is intended for use, at least in 90650, is for a fire enclosure embedded into building structure and non-movable. Combustable seems pretty clear - although some metals burn under the right conditions and thicknesses. Gary -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tarver, Peter Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:19 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings From: Pete Perkins Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:43 AM What do we collectively know about needed ratings for plastic plenums? I believe this is more for electrical than telecomm, but that's not clear yet. Pete - Considering that combustible materials are forbidden to be placed in most ducts and plenums in the CEC and US NEC, I would think the likelihood of a plastic plenum being safety certifiable is negligible. Refer to NFPA 70, Section 300.22. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield ___ _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
Re: plenum ratings
In message 51b0e17d0920404a967d381039139ad0015bc...@ds10965.spraycool.com, dated Fri, 16 Mar 2007, McInturff Gary gmcintu...@spraycool.com writes: Combustable seems pretty clear - although some metals burn under the right conditions and thicknesses. All bar eight, I think, given enough thermal encouragement. Ag, Au, Ru, Rh, Pd, Os, Ir, Pt. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk There are benefits from being irrational - just ask the square root of 2. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
RE: plenum ratings
I don't have the NFPA reference at hand, but would it possible if using 94V5? It is intended for use, at least in 90650, is for a fire enclosure embedded into building structure and non-movable. Combustable seems pretty clear - although some metals burn under the right conditions and thicknesses. Gary From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tarver, Peter Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:19 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: plenum ratings From: Pete Perkins Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:43 AM What do we collectively know about needed ratings for plastic plenums? I believe this is more for electrical than telecomm, but that's not clear yet. Pete - Considering that combustible materials are forbidden to be placed in most ducts and plenums in the CEC and US NEC, I would think the likelihood of a plastic plenum being safety certifiable is negligible. Refer to NFPA 70, Section 300.22. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
RE: plenum ratings
From: Pete Perkins Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:43 AM What do we collectively know about needed ratings for plastic plenums? I believe this is more for electrical than telecomm, but that's not clear yet. Pete - Considering that combustible materials are forbidden to be placed in most ducts and plenums in the CEC and US NEC, I would think the likelihood of a plastic plenum being safety certifiable is negligible. Refer to NFPA 70, Section 300.22. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail message and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail message, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any prints thereof. ABSENT AN EXPRESS STATEMENT TO THE CONTRARY HEREINABOVE, THIS E-MAIL IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR A WRITING. Notwithstanding the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act or the applicability of any other law of similar substance and effect, absent an express statement to the contrary hereinabove, this e-mail message its contents, and any attachments hereto are not intended to represent an offer or acceptance to enter into a contract and are not otherwise intended to bind the sender, Sanmina-SCI Corporation (or any of its subsidiaries), or any other person or entity. _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield ___ _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
Re: plenum ratings
Hello Pete, There are different requirements depending on how the plastics are used. If the plastics are part of the structure of the plenum, insulation used in the plenum or a large surface area, they will need to pass a large scale burn test. The applicable test for the United States is ASTM E-84, also known as the Steiner Fire Tunnel test. The materials must have a flame spread index of no more than 25 and a smoke development index of no more than 50. The test is fairly harsh and uses samples of materials 8 meters long. The equivalent UL standard is UL 723. Plastics used for small items in a plenum, such as a speaker housing, must pass UL 2043. This is a heat and smoke test for discrete products. I am not as familiar with the tests for wires and cables, but there are separate tests used. The same Steiner Fire Tunnel is used for many of these tests, but the procedure for cables is slightly different than for large scale materials. UL 2257 also has some information on plenum cables. There is also information in UL 910. Ted Eckert American Power Conversion/MGE http://www.apc.com/ The items contained in this e-mail reflect the personal opinions of the writer and are only provided for the assistance of the reader. The writer is not speaking in an official capacity for APC, MGE or Schneider Electric. The speaker does not represent APC's, MGE's or Schneider Electric's official position on any matter. Pete Perkins peperkinspe@cs.c omTo Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org cc Subject 03/16/2007 10:43 plenum ratings AM PSNet, The briefest requests seem to generate the most questions. What do we collectively know about needed ratings for plastic plenums? I believe this is more for electrical than telecomm, but that's not clear yet. Load me up; your comments are appreciated. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
RE: Plenum Ratings
David - Yes, the wiring either must be plenum rated or must be completely enclosed in an approved wiring method. If pigtails are provided, installation instructions or markings should give some advice about properly installing the equipment. Background: The requirements in the US are found in NFPA70 (US NEC), Section 300-22. Three types of installations are addressed: 300-22(a) ducts for dust, loose stock or vapor removal, wherein no wiring or electrical equipment of any kind is allowed, due to potential explosive atmospheres; 300-22(b) ducts or plenums used for environmental air, wherein there are special ratings required for wiring systems; equipment is limited to that necessary for taking some direct action upon or sensing of the contained air; 300-22(c) other space used for environmental air, such aas the spaces above acoustic tile ceilings that are also used for air return ducts, wherein similar requirements apply with respect to plenum ratings of wiring methods and equipment, there are effectively no limitations on equipment function, provided it meets the requirements for the installation environment; 300-22(d) which addresses spaces below raised floors in ITE rooms and references Article 645 Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com -Original Message- From: Cereceres, David Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:31 PM Hello Group, I was wondering if anyone out there had any knowledge in Plenum ratings/requirements. Here's my situation: We have a box that has a plenum rating (that's all I know) and it has an 18 inch 3 wire pigtail coming out of it that does not have a plenum rating. Are there any specific requirements on the wire length or if they must also have a plenum rating? Is there any reference material out there? Your help would be once again greatly appreciated, David Cereceres Safety Design Engineer Pelco This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
