Re: Spray-on Conductive Coatings

2002-01-15 Thread MartinJP


UL Recognized Component Category QMRX2 covers parts and enclosures made
from polymeric materials that are electroplated, metal foiled, hot stamped,
painted, cathode sputtered or vacuum metalizzed.

This category approves the combination of the coating applicator, coating
thickness, plastic manufacturer and plastic material designation.

In order to make life easier when obtaining UL or other NRTL approvals, I
would recommend using coating applicators/plastics that have already been
approved under this category.

Regards

Joe Martin
EMC/Product Safety Engineer
Applied Biosystems




 
Doug McKean   
 
dmck...@auspex.com   To: EMC-PSTC Discussion 
Group emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
Sent by:   cc:  
 
owner-emc-pstc@majordomSubject: Re: Spray-on 
Conductive Coatings 
o.ieee.org  
 

 

 
01/11/02 03:02 PM   
 
Please respond to Doug 
 
McKean 
 

 

 





Darrell Locke wrote:

 Dear Colleages,

 We have seen an issue lately with spray-on conductive coatings used
on the
 inside of electronic enclosures.  The coating works great for EMC,
but there
 seems to be a problem with adhesion and tiny flakes of conductive
material
 getting in the electronics.  I'm thinking that the spray-on type
materials
 should not be used at all.  Has anyone else experienced this
problem?

Try to avoid it if you can.  You're absolutely right about the problem
of flaking onto or getting into any energized electrical parts. Safety
will
be all over you about using it.  And because of that, you'll have to
get:

1.  a UL approval for plastic of the cover,
2.  a UL approval for the plastic molder who's making the cover for
you,
3. a UL approval for the conductive coating,
4. a UL approval for the marriage of the coating with the plastic,
5.  and a UL approval for the vendor applying the coating to the
cover.

All approvals have to be verified of course in black-and-white
for approval and for all subsequent factory inspections with
of course appropriate Certificates of Compliance handy as well.

As far as emi, it's sort of a once used thing.  Don't use it on
a cover that will be repeatedly removed and replaced.  It's
not meant to be disturbed to any extent once in place.  And
do not use it as a primary ground either. And it's all dependent
upon the thickness of the layers for effectiveness.  Oil based
coatings seem to have a higher ohms-per-square than the water
based coatings.  You want to keep it down around less than
0.5 ohms.

Been there, done that, sorta don't want to do it again.
Other personal experience mileages may vary of course.

All strictly my own 2 cents worth of opinion.

- Doug McKean




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Re: Spray-on Conductive Coatings

2002-01-12 Thread Doug McKean

Darrell Locke wrote:

 Dear Colleages,

 We have seen an issue lately with spray-on conductive coatings used
on the
 inside of electronic enclosures.  The coating works great for EMC,
but there
 seems to be a problem with adhesion and tiny flakes of conductive
material
 getting in the electronics.  I'm thinking that the spray-on type
materials
 should not be used at all.  Has anyone else experienced this
problem?

Try to avoid it if you can.  You're absolutely right about the problem
of flaking onto or getting into any energized electrical parts. Safety
will
be all over you about using it.  And because of that, you'll have to
get:

1.  a UL approval for plastic of the cover,
2.  a UL approval for the plastic molder who's making the cover for
you,
3. a UL approval for the conductive coating,
4. a UL approval for the marriage of the coating with the plastic,
5.  and a UL approval for the vendor applying the coating to the
cover.

All approvals have to be verified of course in black-and-white
for approval and for all subsequent factory inspections with
of course appropriate Certificates of Compliance handy as well.

As far as emi, it's sort of a once used thing.  Don't use it on
a cover that will be repeatedly removed and replaced.  It's
not meant to be disturbed to any extent once in place.  And
do not use it as a primary ground either. And it's all dependent
upon the thickness of the layers for effectiveness.  Oil based
coatings seem to have a higher ohms-per-square than the water
based coatings.  You want to keep it down around less than
0.5 ohms.

Been there, done that, sorta don't want to do it again.
Other personal experience mileages may vary of course.

All strictly my own 2 cents worth of opinion.

- Doug McKean




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RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings

2002-01-11 Thread McKinney, Alex

It is best to use this process to avoid additional testing costs associated
with using a non-UL approved coating or application process.  Although these
coatings can provide significant reductions in Immunity and Emission noise,
they truly are a headache for safety approvals when regarding creepage,
clearance, and insulation requirements.  Not so much a concern for Class III
products.  I would only suggest using these coatings as a last resort.  They
also add a great deal to the cost of your product too.

Regards,

Alex McKinney
Safety Engineer
LXE, Inc.
Tel: 770-447-4224 x3606
Fax: 770-447-6928



-Original Message-
From: Darrell Locke [mailto:dlo...@advanced-input.com]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 1:52 PM
To: 'Aschenberg, Mat'
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings



Thanks Matt,

I was not aware that a UL approved painter/applicator was required.  Is this
in a standard, or is it just a common practice?

Darrell Locke

-Original Message-
From: Aschenberg, Mat [mailto:matt.aschenb...@echostar.com]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:34 AM
To: Darrell Locke
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings


Darrell, 
I have used this process in the past. It presents a bit of a safety
nightmare. 
The products I work on are UL tested and approved. Getting a product
approved with UL having a spray-on conductive coating is difficult. The
spray needs to be UL listed for use with the particular plastic you are
going to use. Then you need to find a UL approved Painter (applicator) who
uses the UL approved process to apply the spray-on conductive coating. 

Once is enough. I stay away from those like a plague. 

Mat

 -Original Message-
 From: Darrell Locke [SMTP:dlo...@advanced-input.com]
 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:24 AM
 To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 Subject:  Spray-on Conductive Coatings
 
 
 Dear Colleages,
 
 We have seen an issue lately with spray-on conductive coatings used on the
 inside of electronic enclosures.  The coating works great for EMC, but
 there
 seems to be a problem with adhesion and tiny flakes of conductive material
 getting in the electronics.  I'm thinking that the spray-on type materials
 should not be used at all.  Has anyone else experienced this problem?  
 
 Thanks
 
 Darrell Locke
 Advanced Input Devices
 Coeur d'Alene ID
 
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RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings

2002-01-11 Thread Clement Dave-LDC009

I do not believe it's required. If the plastic/coating and applicator are
under the UL746 program then you do not need to do any testing to qualify
your product. If it is not then it must be tested. 

We have been using conductive coatings for 15+ years and as long as the
combo is under the UL program it's been accepted without testing.

Also, never have had any quality problems with these materials either.

Dave Clement
Motorola Inc.
Global Homologation Engineering
20 Cabot Blvd.
Mansfield, MA 02048

P:508-851-8259
F:508-851-8512
C:508-725-9689
mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com


-Original Message-
From: Darrell Locke [mailto:dlo...@advanced-input.com]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 1:52 PM
To: 'Aschenberg, Mat'
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings



Thanks Matt,

I was not aware that a UL approved painter/applicator was required.  Is this
in a standard, or is it just a common practice?

Darrell Locke

-Original Message-
From: Aschenberg, Mat [mailto:matt.aschenb...@echostar.com]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:34 AM
To: Darrell Locke
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings


Darrell, 
I have used this process in the past. It presents a bit of a safety
nightmare. 
The products I work on are UL tested and approved. Getting a product
approved with UL having a spray-on conductive coating is difficult. The
spray needs to be UL listed for use with the particular plastic you are
going to use. Then you need to find a UL approved Painter (applicator) who
uses the UL approved process to apply the spray-on conductive coating. 

Once is enough. I stay away from those like a plague. 

Mat

 -Original Message-
 From: Darrell Locke [SMTP:dlo...@advanced-input.com]
 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:24 AM
 To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 Subject:  Spray-on Conductive Coatings
 
 
 Dear Colleages,
 
 We have seen an issue lately with spray-on conductive coatings used on the
 inside of electronic enclosures.  The coating works great for EMC, but
 there
 seems to be a problem with adhesion and tiny flakes of conductive material
 getting in the electronics.  I'm thinking that the spray-on type materials
 should not be used at all.  Has anyone else experienced this problem?  
 
 Thanks
 
 Darrell Locke
 Advanced Input Devices
 Coeur d'Alene ID
 
 ---
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Fwd: Re: Spray-on Conductive Coatings

2002-01-11 Thread Scott Proffitt
Darrell and all,

Many of our clients work with a company that applies conductive coatings
on numerous electronic plastic housings. They have had much success in
providing this particular process to our customers and seem to be the
know all group in this industry.  We like to stay up on what what they
do for our clients.

Comments: 

1. For conductive paint application to work, the paint needs to be compatible
with the plastic substrate and the substrate be free of any contamination.

2. You could have a quality issue with the paint you are receiving from
your vendor. 
3. Poor masking of parts. 
4. Getting paint inside bosses (not masking the bosses). 

They do provide another technology called Selective Electroless Copper/Nickel
Plating that will likely meet your EMC requirements and provide you with
a durable finish (excellent adhesion characteristics) that meets various
temperature and humidity testing (4-4-16 Test). The first step in the
process is the spray application of a catalytic primer paint to be put
directly on the substrate in the required shielded areas. This paint is
applied at .4 to .8 mils dry (conductive paint is sprayed on at 1.5 to
2 mils dry). The parts are then placed in an electroless copper bath receiving
a total copper thickness of 80 microinches. In this stage, the parts have
an electroless nickel applied over the copper to protect and keep the
copper coating from oxidizing. The nickel coat goes on at 20 microinches.
This process will achieve resistivity reading of less than 1 ohms.

For further questions on the adhesion dilemma or more information on the
Selective Electroless process these guys are a great resource.  Contact:

Bill Couch at Cybershield in Atlanta, Georgia at 770-479-1001 or by e-mail
at bco...@cybershieldinc.com.  Good Luck.

Best Regards,
Scott Proffitt
Advanced Compliance Solutions, Inc.
770-831-8048
www.acstestlab.com
   
  




From: Darrell Locke dlo...@advanced-input.com
To: Internet Mail::[emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]

Subject: Spray-on Conductive Coatings
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: 1/11/02 9:24 AM


Dear Colleages,

We have seen an issue lately with spray-on conductive coatings used on
the
inside of electronic enclosures.  The coating works great for EMC, but
there
seems to be a problem with adhesion and tiny flakes of conductive material
getting in the electronics.  I'm thinking that the spray-on type materials
should not be used at all.  Has anyone else experienced this problem?
 

Thanks

Darrell Locke
Advanced Input Devices
Coeur d'Alene ID

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RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings

2002-01-11 Thread Aschenberg, Mat

Darrell, 
UL will require it if you seek UL approval for your device. 
Mat

 -Original Message-
 From: Darrell Locke [SMTP:dlo...@advanced-input.com]
 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 11:52 AM
 To:   Aschenberg, Mat
 Cc:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 Subject:  RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings
 
 Thanks Matt,
 
 I was not aware that a UL approved painter/applicator was required.  Is
 this
 in a standard, or is it just a common practice?
 
 Darrell Locke
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Aschenberg, Mat [mailto:matt.aschenb...@echostar.com]
 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:34 AM
 To: Darrell Locke
 Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 Subject: RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings
 
 
 Darrell, 
 I have used this process in the past. It presents a bit of a safety
 nightmare. 
 The products I work on are UL tested and approved. Getting a product
 approved with UL having a spray-on conductive coating is difficult. The
 spray needs to be UL listed for use with the particular plastic you are
 going to use. Then you need to find a UL approved Painter (applicator) who
 uses the UL approved process to apply the spray-on conductive coating. 
 
 Once is enough. I stay away from those like a plague. 
 
 Mat
 
  -Original Message-
  From:   Darrell Locke [SMTP:dlo...@advanced-input.com]
  Sent:   Friday, January 11, 2002 10:24 AM
  To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Subject:Spray-on Conductive Coatings
  
  
  Dear Colleages,
  
  We have seen an issue lately with spray-on conductive coatings used on
 the
  inside of electronic enclosures.  The coating works great for EMC, but
  there
  seems to be a problem with adhesion and tiny flakes of conductive
 material
  getting in the electronics.  I'm thinking that the spray-on type
 materials
  should not be used at all.  Has anyone else experienced this problem?  
  
  Thanks
  
  Darrell Locke
  Advanced Input Devices
  Coeur d'Alene ID
  
  ---
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RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings

2002-01-11 Thread DUFFY,RON (A-ColSprings,ex1)

Yes, Hewlett-Packard and now Agilent uses spray-on conductive coatings. We
require our vendor to have there process UL approved. If you go to UL 746C
it will describe the test method. Paul N. Gardner Company makes a testing
set for checking coating adhesion.


Ron Duffy
Product Safety Engineer
Design Validation Unit

Agilent Technologies
1900 Garden of the Gods Road
Colorado Springs, CO 80907-3483

719 590 2335 Tel
719 590 3033 Fax
www.agilent.com

 

-Original Message-
From: Darrell Locke [mailto:dlo...@advanced-input.com]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:24
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Spray-on Conductive Coatings



Dear Colleages,

We have seen an issue lately with spray-on conductive coatings used on the
inside of electronic enclosures.  The coating works great for EMC, but there
seems to be a problem with adhesion and tiny flakes of conductive material
getting in the electronics.  I'm thinking that the spray-on type materials
should not be used at all.  Has anyone else experienced this problem?  

Thanks

Darrell Locke
Advanced Input Devices
Coeur d'Alene ID

---
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RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings

2002-01-11 Thread Darrell Locke

Thanks Matt,

I was not aware that a UL approved painter/applicator was required.  Is this
in a standard, or is it just a common practice?

Darrell Locke

-Original Message-
From: Aschenberg, Mat [mailto:matt.aschenb...@echostar.com]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:34 AM
To: Darrell Locke
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings


Darrell, 
I have used this process in the past. It presents a bit of a safety
nightmare. 
The products I work on are UL tested and approved. Getting a product
approved with UL having a spray-on conductive coating is difficult. The
spray needs to be UL listed for use with the particular plastic you are
going to use. Then you need to find a UL approved Painter (applicator) who
uses the UL approved process to apply the spray-on conductive coating. 

Once is enough. I stay away from those like a plague. 

Mat

 -Original Message-
 From: Darrell Locke [SMTP:dlo...@advanced-input.com]
 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:24 AM
 To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 Subject:  Spray-on Conductive Coatings
 
 
 Dear Colleages,
 
 We have seen an issue lately with spray-on conductive coatings used on the
 inside of electronic enclosures.  The coating works great for EMC, but
 there
 seems to be a problem with adhesion and tiny flakes of conductive material
 getting in the electronics.  I'm thinking that the spray-on type materials
 should not be used at all.  Has anyone else experienced this problem?  
 
 Thanks
 
 Darrell Locke
 Advanced Input Devices
 Coeur d'Alene ID
 
 ---
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 Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
 
 Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
 
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RE: Spray-on Conductive Coatings

2002-01-11 Thread Aschenberg, Mat

Darrell, 
I have used this process in the past. It presents a bit of a safety
nightmare. 
The products I work on are UL tested and approved. Getting a product
approved with UL having a spray-on conductive coating is difficult. The
spray needs to be UL listed for use with the particular plastic you are
going to use. Then you need to find a UL approved Painter (applicator) who
uses the UL approved process to apply the spray-on conductive coating. 

Once is enough. I stay away from those like a plague. 

Mat

 -Original Message-
 From: Darrell Locke [SMTP:dlo...@advanced-input.com]
 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:24 AM
 To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 Subject:  Spray-on Conductive Coatings
 
 
 Dear Colleages,
 
 We have seen an issue lately with spray-on conductive coatings used on the
 inside of electronic enclosures.  The coating works great for EMC, but
 there
 seems to be a problem with adhesion and tiny flakes of conductive material
 getting in the electronics.  I'm thinking that the spray-on type materials
 should not be used at all.  Has anyone else experienced this problem?  
 
 Thanks
 
 Darrell Locke
 Advanced Input Devices
 Coeur d'Alene ID
 
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Spray-on Conductive Coatings

2002-01-11 Thread Darrell Locke

Dear Colleages,

We have seen an issue lately with spray-on conductive coatings used on the
inside of electronic enclosures.  The coating works great for EMC, but there
seems to be a problem with adhesion and tiny flakes of conductive material
getting in the electronics.  I'm thinking that the spray-on type materials
should not be used at all.  Has anyone else experienced this problem?  

Thanks

Darrell Locke
Advanced Input Devices
Coeur d'Alene ID

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