Re: Majordomo results: Re: odd immunity problems
Flinders, Randall wrote: My question is. . . . Even with the keystrokes, how could they access the account without possession of the the ATM card? The culprits do not need the ATM card. They just make their own. Jeff Duvall EME Services x4532
Re(2): Majordomo results: Re: odd immunity problems ?
of course, the emi-catchers lurking in the van would first have to convince you to leave your ATM card with them so they could carry out their dirty deed... Dwight Douglas Mckean wrote: How about ... The one where some creative types got some EMI(?) equipment to monitor the keystrokes of people at an ATM? Too true. But last night I saw AJ on TV and in South America somewhere there are 50 million ATM transactions every day. Some guys figured out how to get the ATM to eat your card after you enter your PIN. After you leave in frustration without your card, they come and fish out your card and have a field day at your expense. They used wire and chewing gum. Gives a bad name to the bubble gum and baling wire solutions we all have used. Scott
Re: Majordomo results: Re: odd immunity problems ?
of course, the emi-catchers lurking in the van would first have to convince you to leave your ATM card with them so they could carry out their dirty deed... Dwight Douglas Mckean wrote: How about ... The one where some creative types got some EMI(?) equipment to monitor the keystrokes of people at an ATM? Story goes that they sat in a van in a parking lot by the bank with antennas focused on the ATM. Once you entered in your numbers, they could translate the EMI signature to keystrokes on the keypad. After you left the scene, they drained your account. Never knew if that was UL or fact. --
Re: Odd immunity problems.
Maybe you should tell the manufacturers, they can sell it as a new feature! Best regards! Keith Armstrong Cherry Clough Consultants ed.pr...@cubic.com wrote: H, could this be a universal EMC truth? --- On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:52:56 -0400 Chris Dupres chris_dup...@compuserve.com wrote: Hi Keith. As we wander round this world of Electro-fizz, pop and 2dB-over-limit, we come across all sorts of strange EMC behaviour - The outside Quartz Halogen security light comes on whenever my office lights (fluorescent) or the bathroom ventilation fan are switched off. I have a security floodlamp system for my backyard, equipped with a thermal motion sensor. I have found that I have a reliable, though unintentional, remote control capability simply by flicking the kitchen range vent fan on and off a couple of times. I told my wife that it's a special purpose, hard-wired, digital controller. Ed -- Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA. USA 619-505-2780 Date: 07/07/98 Time: 09:24:27 --
Re: Odd Immunity Problems
Dear Scott Must be the first example of EMC affecting social relationships! Can anyone tell me what the rules are in the US and Europe for the use of such powerful PAs? I know that truckers and radio amateurs in the UK sometimes use such powerful PAs when they shouldn't, and create havoc, but when is it OK to use them? Best regards Keith Armstrong Partner, Cherry Clough Consultants phone: +44 (0)1457 871 605 Fax: +44 (0) 1457 820 145 Email: karmstr...@iee.org Scott Douglas wrote: Since you brought it up, I am reminded of a time in my youth before the Hey Good Buddy... craze hit the CB world. Back when it was a serious citizens band, licenses were required and I was young and foolish. I had a 5 channel 1 watt Johnson Messenger One CB. Had great fun 'til I bought a one kW linear amplifier for it. Was talking to someone several states away (hundreds of miles) when a knock came at the door upstairs. Heard my neighbor from across the street screaming at my mother. My voice was coming through their stereo speakers even though the power was off! That wasn't the worst part, he heard me talking about spending time with their daughter, whom I was forbidden to see! Sure had no clue what EMI was then but, boy, did I ever learn about angry fathers! Today I am a Compliance Engineer, but did not marry his daughter. Regards, Scott s_doug...@ecrm.com
RE: Odd Immunity Problems
Keith You can probably find what you need to know about US regs at http://www.fcc.gov/ FCC regs specify max power at various commercial and amateur frequencies. I can tell you that a 1 kW PA on a CB radio is illegal in the US. DB -- From: Keith Armstrong[SMTP:karmstr...@iee.org] Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 8:43 AM To: Scott Douglas Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Odd Immunity Problems Dear Scott Must be the first example of EMC affecting social relationships! Can anyone tell me what the rules are in the US and Europe for the use of such powerful PAs? I know that truckers and radio amateurs in the UK sometimes use such powerful PAs when they shouldn't, and create havoc, but when is it OK to use them? Best regards Keith Armstrong Partner, Cherry Clough Consultants phone: +44 (0)1457 871 605 Fax: +44 (0) 1457 820 145 Email: karmstr...@iee.org Scott Douglas wrote: Since you brought it up, I am reminded of a time in my youth before the Hey Good Buddy... craze hit the CB world. Back when it was a serious citizens band, licenses were required and I was young and foolish. I had a 5 channel 1 watt Johnson Messenger One CB. Had great fun 'til I bought a one kW linear amplifier for it. Was talking to someone several states away (hundreds of miles) when a knock came at the door upstairs. Heard my neighbor from across the street screaming at my mother. My voice was coming through their stereo speakers even though the power was off! That wasn't the worst part, he heard me talking about spending time with their daughter, whom I was forbidden to see! Sure had no clue what EMI was then but, boy, did I ever learn about angry fathers! Today I am a Compliance Engineer, but did not marry his daughter. Regards, Scott s_doug...@ecrm.com
RE: odd immunity problems ?
I've heard of early ESD problems with slots around the coin mechanism that was causing pay-outs. (Making ESD a bigger winner on slots than I have ever been). Incidentally, all metal enclosure don't insure ESD protection. I had problems with a piece of industrial control equipment that was metal enclosed but bonding between certain sections was a combination of gold alodine (sp?) or small gauge twisted pairs. The grounding/bonding paths were not what the designer had anticipated and we had a little work to straighten it out. (Basically, widened the bonding straps with beryllium copper, replacing the small gauge wire straps). Turns out it made an easier assembly process because the halves were self connecting with a single clip-on section, rather than stripping, crimping and installing the previous straps. Gary McInturff -Original Message- From: ed.pr...@cubic.com [SMTP:ed.pr...@cubic.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 4:22 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: odd immunity problems ? --- On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:00:24 EDT mikonc...@aol.com wrote: Lisa: Come to think of it, I have never seen a slot machine that wasn't encased in metal. Wonder if they use EMI gaskets?. Mike Conn Owner/Principal Consultant Mikon Consulting Considering that the slots have survived Nevada humidity conditions, it would appear that they have a high inherent ESD immunity. But I don't understand the reasoning behind this thread. Compliance engineers, conditioned by countless exposures to hyper-optimistic design claims, usually develop of wicked streak of cynicism. Why would any of us ever expect to upset a slot in our favor? And, to morph further, did the Japanese ever have a problem with customers rigging those old mechanical Pachinko machines with a hand-held magnet? Those were steel balls, and the glass was only 1/8 thick! Or would that have been an unthinkable breach of arcade etiquette? -- Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA. USA 619-505-2780 Date: 07/07/98 Time: 15:22:28 --
RE: Odd Immunity Problems
Don't know the rules in the UK, but in the US, CB is limited (legally) to 5 watts but amateurs, who must be licensed by the FCC, can run up to 1kW. Most of the problems in the US have been by CBer's running illegal amplifiers and causing interference problems, but because the general public doesn't know (and doesn't care about) the difference between illegal CB operation amateur operation, the amateurs get a lot of the blame. Fortunately, with the advent of cable tv and satellite tv, this has become much less of a problem. Aside: the biggest problem amateurs in the US face right now is legislation in towns which restrict antennas -- often to keep cell phone towers out! There is FCC rulings to pre-empt local statutes, but sometimes it becomes a court fight. Mike Hopkins mhopk...@keytek.com (K1VLB) -Original Message- From: Keith Armstrong [SMTP:karmstr...@iee.org] Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 11:44 AM To: Scott Douglas Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Odd Immunity Problems Dear Scott Must be the first example of EMC affecting social relationships! Can anyone tell me what the rules are in the US and Europe for the use of such powerful PAs? I know that truckers and radio amateurs in the UK sometimes use such powerful PAs when they shouldn't, and create havoc, but when is it OK to use them? Best regards Keith Armstrong Partner, Cherry Clough Consultants phone: +44 (0)1457 871 605 Fax: +44 (0) 1457 820 145 Email: karmstr...@iee.org Scott Douglas wrote: Since you brought it up, I am reminded of a time in my youth before the Hey Good Buddy... craze hit the CB world. Back when it was a serious citizens band, licenses were required and I was young and foolish. I had a 5 channel 1 watt Johnson Messenger One CB. Had great fun 'til I bought a one kW linear amplifier for it. Was talking to someone several states away (hundreds of miles) when a knock came at the door upstairs. Heard my neighbor from across the street screaming at my mother. My voice was coming through their stereo speakers even though the power was off! That wasn't the worst part, he heard me talking about spending time with their daughter, whom I was forbidden to see! Sure had no clue what EMI was then but, boy, did I ever learn about angry fathers! Today I am a Compliance Engineer, but did not marry his daughter. Regards, Scott s_doug...@ecrm.com
RE: odd immunity problems ?
I don't have details, but do know that a number of manufacturers of gaming machines do perform so pretty tought immunity testing -- ESD to 20kV, surge, and the like.. Mike Hopkins mhopk...@keytek.com -Original Message- From: cefa...@mksinst.com [SMTP:cefa...@mksinst.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 4:29 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: re: odd immunity problems ? Just curious, Anyone have insight on the immunity of Slot machines?? They must have some pretty rigid design criteria else we'd all be rich. Haven't heard of any odd immunity things happening at Vegas -- Or do people choose not to say? Lisa
RE: Odd Immunity Problems
I had a sort of similar situation happen to me while we were setting up for my wedding. My wedding took place outside, and in order to get the music out there, we added hundreds of feet of wire to the speakers instead of moving the entire stereo out there. All of the sudden, our local 50kW AM station (750kHz) was coming through the speakers as if some one had tuned the station in, and the stereo was not even on! I had not yet had a communications class at the time, so I did not understand what was happening. I later realized that we had almost made a perfect half-wave dipole antenna for the station with the speaker wire. -- From: s_doug...@ecrm.com[SMTP:s_doug...@ecrm.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 4:26 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Odd Immunity Problems Since you brought it up, I am reminded of a time in my youth before the Hey Good Buddy... craze hit the CB world. Back when it was a serious citizens band, licenses were required and I was young and foolish. I had a 5 channel 1 watt Johnson Messenger One CB. Had great fun 'til I bought a one kW linear amplifier for it. Was talking to someone several states away (hundreds of miles) when a knock came at the door upstairs. Heard my neighbor from across the street screaming at my mother. My voice was coming through their stereo speakers even though the power was off! That wasn't the worst part, he heard me talking about spending time with their daughter, whom I was forbidden to see! Sure had no clue what EMI was then but, boy, did I ever learn about angry fathers! Today I am a Compliance Engineer, but did not marry his daughter. Regards, Scott s_doug...@ecrm.com
Re: Majordomo results: Re: odd immunity problems ?
How about ... The one where some creative types got some EMI(?) equipment to monitor the keystrokes of people at an ATM? Story goes that they sat in a van in a parking lot by the bank with antennas focused on the ATM. Once you entered in your numbers, they could translate the EMI signature to keystrokes on the keypad. After you left the scene, they drained your account. Never knew if that was UL or fact.
Re: odd immunity problems ?
--- On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:00:24 EDT mikonc...@aol.com wrote: Lisa: Come to think of it, I have never seen a slot machine that wasn't encased in metal. Wonder if they use EMI gaskets?. Mike Conn Owner/Principal Consultant Mikon Consulting Considering that the slots have survived Nevada humidity conditions, it would appear that they have a high inherent ESD immunity. But I don't understand the reasoning behind this thread. Compliance engineers, conditioned by countless exposures to hyper-optimistic design claims, usually develop of wicked streak of cynicism. Why would any of us ever expect to upset a slot in our favor? And, to morph further, did the Japanese ever have a problem with customers rigging those old mechanical Pachinko machines with a hand-held magnet? Those were steel balls, and the glass was only 1/8 thick! Or would that have been an unthinkable breach of arcade etiquette? -- Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA. USA 619-505-2780 List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 07/07/98 Time: 15:22:28 --
re: odd immunity problems ?
Hi Lisa. There are many urban legends of people who could 'fix' slot machines by using 'Phreak', 'squawk' and 'Blaster' boxes. These were allegedly small battery powered gadgets which produced very large amounts of EMI, sometimes as simple as a small unsuppressed electromagnetic buzzer, sometimes a wild HF square wave generator, sometimes a variable frequency spot frequency generator, or a combination of those. The principle was that a winning line was got up in the normal way, the Phreak box switched on, which locked up the processor or electronics, and from then on each pull of the (mechanical) handle obtained an identical win, regardless of the state of the wheels. Another system worked on the fact that one patricular machine always delivered a 3 plum win on switch on, as an automatic coin delivery gate check, so that the owner could be sure the machine was working properly. The phreak box reset the Switch On Reset latch after each pull of the handle and delivered a 3 plum win, whatever that was worth. The cure for most of these problems was a 0.1uF capacitor on the base of every BC108! Good old days Rumours abound of 'boxes' that could induce jackpot payouts etc, but it's always heresay, no hard evidence. Oddly, the machine manufacturers never seemed to put a great deal of effort into fixing these problems at the time. Construction was just plywood and chipboard with little screening in those days. Later microprocessor based machines seem to be effectively bomb proof,highly screened and grounded, but I am no longer involved in design of entertainment machines. Most 'hacking' activity nowadays seems to be pointed at ATM's, much more lucrative... I found details of how to interrogate these things with a hand held terminal on the Internet once! As they say, it's all there - somwhere. Chris Dupres Surrey, UK.
Re: odd immunity problems ?
15 yrs ago, I tested some gaming equipment. There were some unique test specs, including those to emulate catle prods. One of the specs was around 35kV with some strange C and R value equivalents. They (gaming mfgs) are very aware of the neccessity for hard equipment. Hans
Re: odd immunity problems ?
Lisa: Come to think of it, I have never seen a slot machine that wasn't encased in metal. Wonder if they use EMI gaskets?. Mike Conn Owner/Principal Consultant Mikon Consulting
Re: Odd immunity problems.
Thanks Chris! I love the gas flame one! (pity its not EMC) Expect to see these in print one day. Keith Chris Dupres wrote: Hi Keith. As we wander round this world of Electro-fizz, pop and 2dB-over-limit, we come across all sorts of strange EMC behaviour, some directly witnessed, some without an actual source (I heard of a friend of the wife of the chap who reads the gas meters - etc.) A few more amusing ones have slippped into Urban Legend, or latterday Folklore, some are much more recent. 1. There is the story of the lady on the ninth floor of a block of flats who whenever she heated her milk for her bedtime drink, twenty seconds later there was a loud 'Donk' noise from the wall. Subsequent investigation showed that whenever the ladies Microwave was started, the lift was called from the ground floor and stopped at the ninth. The ladies kitchen was against the lift shaft and the noise was that of the lift doors closing. - Unattributed 2. There is the story of the short-term car park gates at Gatwick airport being opened simply by holding an electronic cigarette lighter up to the exit card reader, and flicking it a few times. This was discovered by careful TV surveillance, and the surveillance technician using his lighter to see the time! Indirectly attributable to the BAA. 3. A metal detector on a coffee packaging plant dumping 50 lbs of instant coffee into the scrap-sack whenever a CelNet phone was used within 20 metres. Witnessed by Chris Duprés. 4. A Tissot Two-Timer digital/analogue wrist watch which went into time travel mode (about x 60 )whenever a particular Motorola Micro-Tac portable phone nearby had someone actually speaking into the mouthpiece. Witnessed by Chris Duprés. It was my damn watch! 5. Motor Vehicles with Capacitor Discharge ignition systems stranded, unable to run, parked on the A5 at Clifton-on-Dusmore, near Rugby, UK. The fact that this road goes right through the middle of the NATO 16kHz transmitter may have been significant. ( Is this EMC, or just total overload?) Attributable to an AA patrol in The Halfway House Inn, Crick, Northants, UK. 6. And there is the one where the flame on the gas cooker flared up red and then went out whenever the phone rang... This was found to be due to the telephone extension bell up the garden being fitted to the gas supply pipe, such that whenever the bell rang the rust was shaken off the inside of the pipe which got carried through to the flame causing the flare up and then blockage. OK, this is not EMC per se, but it seemed funny anyway. This was culled from a UK magazine, probably Readers Digest, while waiting for the Dentist. 7. Lot's of other examples at home, including: - The TV changing channels or turning off whenever the central heating came on. - The TV presenting us with the Gatwick Airport Meteorology transmissions, albeit at very low level, when the Microwave was running. (we are about 2 miles from Gatwick). - A Ceramic firing kiln in the garage going up 10 degrees whenever a switchmode battery charger was running in the garage. - The outside Quartz Halogen security light comes on whenever my office lights (fluorescent) or the bathroom ventilation fan are switched off. There must be many, many weirder and funnier ones out there :-) Regards, Chris Dupres Surrey, UK.
re: odd immunity problems ?
Just curious, Anyone have insight on the immunity of Slot machines?? They must have some pretty rigid design criteria else we'd all be rich. Haven't heard of any odd immunity things happening at Vegas -- Or do people choose not to say? Lisa
Re: Odd immunity problems.
--- On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:24:45 -0400 geor...@lexmark.com wrote: Chris's list of rumored and witnessed interference problems points out several key points still true today. There are NO interference or immunity requirements for most of the world's electrical apparatus. I once heard the following. Before the present sophisticated PC games and such, there were the simple ping pong games that could be played by attaching a device to the inputs of a TV set. In some cases the user did not remove the antenna leads. Hence, the ping pong game signals would radiate up the antenna and show up on the screens of neighboring TV sets. Or leak across an A/B coax switch, hence the requirement for minimum isolation of an RF switch. I also heard that it was devices like this that brought about the FCC emission regulations for digital devices operating at 10kHz or above. Remember that this was before the PC explosion after 1981 or so. I remember the old Sega arcade video machines. They were constructed of wood or fiberboard, and had their functional modules distributed in various places throughout the non-conductive cabinet. Open circuit boards were nailed wherever it was convenient, there was a total rats-nest of point to point wiring, data and power wires were strung a couple of feet long without a thought to coupling, and there was no filtering. Machine to machine variation was huge. It was a time of buccaneer construction practices! It was this type of product, as well as the burst of TRS-80's, Apple II's and PET's, that really got the regulatory wave moving. BTW, when did the first Pong games hit the lounge scene. I seem to recall a console Pong machine in a Cupertino bar circa late 1975. Ed -- Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA. USA 619-505-2780 List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 07/07/98 Time: 09:46:46 --
Re: Odd immunity problems.
H, could this be a universal EMC truth? --- On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:52:56 -0400 Chris Dupres chris_dup...@compuserve.com wrote: Hi Keith. As we wander round this world of Electro-fizz, pop and 2dB-over-limit, we come across all sorts of strange EMC behaviour - The outside Quartz Halogen security light comes on whenever my office lights (fluorescent) or the bathroom ventilation fan are switched off. I have a security floodlamp system for my backyard, equipped with a thermal motion sensor. I have found that I have a reliable, though unintentional, remote control capability simply by flicking the kitchen range vent fan on and off a couple of times. I told my wife that it's a special purpose, hard-wired, digital controller. Ed -- Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA. USA 619-505-2780 List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 07/07/98 Time: 09:24:27 --
Re: Odd immunity problems.
Yes, Chris. Quite amusing. Then, of course, there's the famous fly in the microwave debate ... ducking quickly Chris Dupres wrote: Hi Keith. As we wander round this world of Electro-fizz, pop and 2dB-over-limit, we come across all sorts of strange EMC behaviour, some directly witnessed, some without an actual source (I heard of a friend of the wife of the chap who reads the gas meters - etc.) A few more amusing ones have slippped into Urban Legend, or latterday Folklore, some are much more recent. 1. There is the story of the lady on the ninth floor of a block of flats who whenever she heated her milk for her bedtime drink, twenty seconds later there was a loud 'Donk' noise from the wall. Subsequent investigation showed that whenever the ladies Microwave was started, the lift was called from the ground floor and stopped at the ninth. The ladies kitchen was against the lift shaft and the noise was that of the lift doors closing. - Unattributed 2. There is the story of the short-term car park gates at Gatwick airport being opened simply by holding an electronic cigarette lighter up to the exit card reader, and flicking it a few times. This was discovered by careful TV surveillance, and the surveillance technician using his lighter to see the time! Indirectly attributable to the BAA. 3. A metal detector on a coffee packaging plant dumping 50 lbs of instant coffee into the scrap-sack whenever a CelNet phone was used within 20 metres. Witnessed by Chris Duprés. 4. A Tissot Two-Timer digital/analogue wrist watch which went into time travel mode (about x 60 )whenever a particular Motorola Micro-Tac portable phone nearby had someone actually speaking into the mouthpiece. Witnessed by Chris Duprés. It was my damn watch! 5. Motor Vehicles with Capacitor Discharge ignition systems stranded, unable to run, parked on the A5 at Clifton-on-Dusmore, near Rugby, UK. The fact that this road goes right through the middle of the NATO 16kHz transmitter may have been significant. ( Is this EMC, or just total overload?) Attributable to an AA patrol in The Halfway House Inn, Crick, Northants, UK. 6. And there is the one where the flame on the gas cooker flared up red and then went out whenever the phone rang... This was found to be due to the telephone extension bell up the garden being fitted to the gas supply pipe, such that whenever the bell rang the rust was shaken off the inside of the pipe which got carried through to the flame causing the flare up and then blockage. OK, this is not EMC per se, but it seemed funny anyway. This was culled from a UK magazine, probably Readers Digest, while waiting for the Dentist. 7. Lot's of other examples at home, including: - The TV changing channels or turning off whenever the central heating came on. - The TV presenting us with the Gatwick Airport Meteorology transmissions, albeit at very low level, when the Microwave was running. (we are about 2 miles from Gatwick). - A Ceramic firing kiln in the garage going up 10 degrees whenever a switchmode battery charger was running in the garage. - The outside Quartz Halogen security light comes on whenever my office lights (fluorescent) or the bathroom ventilation fan are switched off. There must be many, many weirder and funnier ones out there :-) Regards, Chris Dupres Surrey, UK. -- __ Begin of Forwarded Material __ End of Forwarded Material The comments and opinions stated herein are mine alone, and do not reflect those of my employer.
