Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[McDiarmid, Ralph]

We use a small drop of gap-filling cyanoacrylate (like Krazy Glue) to 
affix thermocouples.  With strain relief (taping) they stay put up to 160C 
in our experience.  That glue type is nice because it is easy to see bead 
contact with the surface.

.
Ralph McDiarmid
Compliance Engineering
Residential/Commercial
Solar Business
Schneider Electric

E  ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com
3700 Gilmore Way
Burnaby
BC
Canada



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Re: [PSES] Insulation testing

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi John:

 

 

How do you demonstrate the dielectric strength
between mains and user accessible circuits when
the accessible circuits are referenced to chassis?

 

Disconnect the ground, and connect the low end of
the hi-pot tester to the user-accessible part
(circuit).  Don't touch the chassis during the
test.  :)

 

Since you are supposedly testing reinforced
insulation, this test runs the risk of subjecting
the basic insulation to the reinforced insulation
voltage, and possibly causing failure of the basic
insulation.  However, with the ground
disconnected, there should be no voltage
difference across the basic insulation.  But,
since the since the accessible circuits are
referenced to ground, nearly the full test voltage
will be applied to the basic insulation. 

 

However, in most standards, the electric strength
of basic insulation clearances approach the
electric strength required of reinforced
insulation.  And, the electric strength of solid
insulation of even minimum thickness is usually
more than that required of reinforced insulation.
I would guess that you will successfully pass this
test.

 

 

Best regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 


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[PSES] IEC 61010-1 and VDRs in OVC III environments

[Peter Tarver]

Howdy, howdy, howdy.

Product incorporates Type 5 component VDRs and is installed in an OVC III
environment via field wiring connections. Evaluation for a CB Scheme
Certificate and Test Report.

In recent dealings with a CBTL, I was told that the VDRs in a product
needed to be Type 2. In referencing UL 1449 (for convenience), a Type 2
VDR has the assumption of fixed wiring for the VDR itself and mounting by
solder onto a board is not a consideration (except that a Type 2 VDR may
include a system of Type 4 and/or Type 5 VDRs and other components) .

Per the CBTL, the Type 5 VDR certifications used may or may not be
suitable for the application, depending on the level of testing performed
on the VDR during its component evaluation, primarily associated with the
combination wave open-circuit voltage amplitude related to the OVC.

I checked the CTL Decisions and OSM Decisions for 61010-1 for both the
third edition and fourth edition and found zero related decisions. The
CBTL was unmoved by my efforts, claiming this matter has been a long term
discussion in TC66 and imposed their will irrespective of a defined
requirement in the IEC.

Likewise, the CBTL was unmoved by the testing performed by another
division of the mothership that applied 6 kVpk surge testing to the
complete product as a part of another evaluation to type. This may be
because the staff and intent of the testing was not under the
accreditation of the CBTL/NCB, but I'm not certain.

In checking publicly available databases for components, the kind of
information needed to preselect an appropriate Type 5 VDR is not possible.
This ultimately boils down to evaluation of each Type 5 VDR by the CBTL
for each and every prospective alternate or substitute VDR.

Has anyone else encountered this sort of requirement? The CBTL either
could not or would not provide a written requirement, so this smells off.


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[McDiarmid, Ralph]

However, it is easier to just measure it than argue with the NRTL, which 
must follow what the standard says, which all too often include 
semiconductors and capacitors.   Some of the tables in standards like 
UL458 haven't been updated for a long time. (when was the last time you 
saw a selenium rectifier in a new piece of equipment?)

If you going to measure all those other things for design verification or 
for reliability evaluation, then why not just include in the UL test too.

Ralph McDiarmid
Compliance Engineering
Residential/Commercial
Solar Business
Schneider Electric

E  ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com
3700 Gilmore Way
Burnaby
BC
Canada




From:
Richard Nute 
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, 
Date:
02/26/2016 10:53 AM
Subject:
Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object



> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..."
has no
> meaning. Test conditions and component ID? A Tj
of
> 150deg does not mean that you are allowed 150deg
on the
> component body. TI, ST, and others have
published some
> good stuff on calculating component temps for
power
> semiconductors. That said, not unusual for
normal operating
> temp of some components in some SMPS to exceed
100deg.
> Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about
this...

For safety purposes, the only temperatures that
count are the temperatures of safeguard
insulations (basic, supplementary, and
reinforced), and accessible parts. 

For years, certification houses have measured
transistors, diodes, and electrolytic capacitors,
but they don't count for preserving the safeguard;
failure of these kinds of components do not create
the possibility of electric shock or thermal burn.
(Failure of these kinds of components may result
in fire, but control of component temperature does
not predict whether or not failure of the
component will cause a fire.)


Rich


> -Original Message-
> From: Brian O'Connell
> [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:11 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach
thermocouple
> to object
> 
> UL and CSA have published specific procedures
and
> material recommendations for T/C use in Type
Tests. Most
> NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a
sample
> power supply is sent to a company lab to verify
test
> technique via TRF data veracity.
> 
> So the moral of the story is to use whatever
technique that
> enables NRTL/NB acceptance of your test data. In
general,
> cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of choice, along
with
> Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for
limited
> number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the
problem. The
> other issues that must be addressed are where
the t/c is
> placed on the component, selection of
components, and test
> conditions.
> 
> Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for
most power
> supply components.
> 
> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..."
has no
> meaning. Test conditions and component ID? A Tj
of
> 150deg does not mean that you are allowed 150deg
on the
> component body. TI, ST, and others have
published some
> good stuff on calculating component temps for
power
> semiconductors. That said, not unusual for
normal operating
> temp of some components in some SMPS to exceed
100deg.
> Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about
this...
> 
> In any case, just calculate power dissipation
for the diode,
> then use to calc the Tj. This will be your
'sanity check'.
> 
> Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach
thermocouple to
> object
> 
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object
under
> temperature rise test using Kapton tape.
Currently I looked
> at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature of
120 degC
> under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The
tape seems
> not very reliable and rigid enough for long
period of testing.
> Is there any other more suitable means to attach
the
> thermocouple to such high temperature point of
interest?
> 
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.
Is it
> normal for the rectifier to have such high
operating
> temperature?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
> -
>
--
--
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Engineering
> Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a
message to the
> list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and
searchable on the
> web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
Online
> Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats),
large files,
> etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including
> how to unsubscribe)
> List rules:

Re: [PSES] IEC 61010-1 and VDRs in OVC III environments

[Brian O'Connell]

Would think that the normative reference would be IEC61051-2  for IEC/EN61010-1 
report and requirements. UL1449 only referenced in UL61010-1. Cannot remember 
specifics, but SPD classifications not exactly same. SPD type can be determined 
by national differences, where used in equipment panels, and type of current 
interrupt device, and lunar phase.

And heed Mr.Nute's warnings. While some of my employer's industrial stuff uses 
VDRs (MOV), have forced designers to use particular placements and mechanical 
isolation to create a 'fire box'. But not certain if any particular utility's 
OV suppression can be relied on for industrial installations.

FWIW, have recorded >4kV transients at a North Carolina site twice during 
previous 14 months. And they scoffed when my data logger design was set up for 
6kV full scale.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 2:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] IEC 61010-1 and VDRs in OVC III environments

Howdy, howdy, howdy.

Product incorporates Type 5 component VDRs and is installed in an OVC III
environment via field wiring connections. Evaluation for a CB Scheme
Certificate and Test Report.

In recent dealings with a CBTL, I was told that the VDRs in a product
needed to be Type 2. In referencing UL 1449 (for convenience), a Type 2
VDR has the assumption of fixed wiring for the VDR itself and mounting by
solder onto a board is not a consideration (except that a Type 2 VDR may
include a system of Type 4 and/or Type 5 VDRs and other components) .

Per the CBTL, the Type 5 VDR certifications used may or may not be
suitable for the application, depending on the level of testing performed
on the VDR during its component evaluation, primarily associated with the
combination wave open-circuit voltage amplitude related to the OVC.

I checked the CTL Decisions and OSM Decisions for 61010-1 for both the
third edition and fourth edition and found zero related decisions. The
CBTL was unmoved by my efforts, claiming this matter has been a long term
discussion in TC66 and imposed their will irrespective of a defined
requirement in the IEC.

Likewise, the CBTL was unmoved by the testing performed by another
division of the mothership that applied 6 kVpk surge testing to the
complete product as a part of another evaluation to type. This may be
because the staff and intent of the testing was not under the
accreditation of the CBTL/NCB, but I'm not certain.

In checking publicly available databases for components, the kind of
information needed to preselect an appropriate Type 5 VDR is not possible.
This ultimately boils down to evaluation of each Type 5 VDR by the CBTL
for each and every prospective alternate or substitute VDR.

Has anyone else encountered this sort of requirement? The CBTL either
could not or would not provide a written requirement, so this smells off.


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver

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Re: [PSES] IEC 61010-1 and VDRs in OVC III environments

[Richard Nute]

Hi Peter:


Don't use the VDR or any transient suppression.  Take it out.

Your insulation is good enough and is not likely to be damaged by a transient 
over-voltage.  

VDRs and most other transient suppression schemes may protect the immediate 
equipment, but generate transients for other equipment because they 
short-circuit the power line; the energy in the inductance and capacitance of 
the power line must be dissipated somewhere.  See papers by Francois Marztloff. 
 And my paper, "HBSE and Insulation Coordination," at the Chicago PSES 
Symposium, May, 2015.  

Instead, rely on the transient suppression that is provided by the utility.  

If you must suppress transient over-voltages, do it in the secondary circuits 
where the energy is much lower, and the effects of the suppression do not 
propagate in the power line.


Best regards,
Rich

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Re: [PSES] IEC 61010-1 and VDRs in OVC III environments

[Richard Nute]

> FWIW, have recorded >4kV transients at a North Carolina
> site twice during previous 14 months.

Unfortunately, we don't know whether the cause was by operation of equipment, 
operation of a transient suppression device, or atmospheric discharge.  Since 
the occurrence rate is so low, and the location (NC), I would guess nearby 
atmospheric discharge.


Rich

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Pete Perkins]

Scott,

I have always used superglue to attach thermocouples for temperature
measurements.  

:>) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 
_ _ _ _ _

I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test
using Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a
temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape
seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is
there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high
temperature point of interest?

The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the
rectifier to have such high operating temperature?

Thanks and regards,

Scott  

-

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Brian O'Connell]

UL and CSA have published specific procedures and material recommendations for 
T/C use in Type Tests. Most NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a sample 
power supply is sent to a company lab to verify test technique via TRF data 
veracity.

So the moral of the story is to use whatever technique that enables NRTL/NB 
acceptance of your test data. In general, cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of 
choice, along with Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for limited 
number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the problem. The other issues that 
must be addressed are where the t/c is placed on the component, selection of 
components, and test conditions.

Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for most power supply components.

" ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..." has no meaning. Test conditions 
and component ID? A Tj of 150deg does not mean that you are allowed 150deg on 
the component body. TI, ST, and others have published some good stuff on 
calculating component temps for power semiconductors. That said, not unusual 
for normal operating temp of some components in some SMPS to exceed 100deg. Of 
course, Arrhenius had something to say about this... 

In any case, just calculate power dissipation for the diode, then use to calc 
the Tj. This will be your 'sanity check'.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature 
of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape seems not very 
reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is there any other more 
suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high temperature point of 
interest?

The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
rectifier to have such high operating temperature?

Thanks and regards,

Scott  

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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formats), large files, etc.

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Brian O'Connell]

Generally agree, but be careful with using a spray-type application for the 
accelerant. Prefer to use an eye dropper. Had a tech, while doing tests for 
UL5085-3, that caught a small linear transformer on fire because the (very 
volatile) accelerant had not completely evaporated after spray application, and 
had been applied over a 2x2cm area.

Thermal paste, by itself, can be adiabatic (may actually expand to insulate), 
and is essentially a contaminate unless compressed between two parallel 
surfaces. Should never be used around TCs for type tests. Cured cyanoacrylate 
is essentially diabatic.

The glue line must be very thin, and must hold the TC bead in firm, static 
mechanical contact with the component.

Wrote a tutorial about thermal test technique and error sources about 10 years 
ago, that showed up at two NRTLs, but was never accepted by the IEEE PSES. 
Should be sitting somewhere on one of the servers, will try to find it.

Of course the best accelerant for TC adhesives are the tears of the sales and 
marketing directors.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:13 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

Scott,

Year ago we used Tac Pac with a spray accelerator. Just place a dab of glue 
where you want it, insert the thermocouple, then spray it with the accelerator 
and it would instantly harden.  To remove, we used some kind of solvent 
(acetone?).  Just a drop would start to soften the glue and within 30 seconds 
you could pull the thermocouple out for re-use.

I don't recall the product numbers but a little research should find them easy 
enough. I think it was something like Loctite 444 adhesive with accelerator 
kit. The accelerator was 7452 and came either in a small spray can or in a 
bottle.  There are probably new formulas today that work just as good.

Some glue the thermocouple up slightly from the end and then use thermal paste 
on the end. It is messy and we  didn't really see much difference in our test 
results.

The Other Brian


-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 11:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature 
of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape seems not very 
reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is there any other more 
suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high temperature point of 
interest?

The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
rectifier to have such high operating temperature?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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formats), large files, etc.

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Brian Ceresney]

Hi Scott, All, 
The tape tends to ensure that stresses on the thermocouple length won't lift 
the tip, working as a strain relief.
We typically use a high-temperature fibreglass tape, with rubber thermosetting 
adhesive. Once it bonds, it doesn't soften again under warm temperature. 

For the tip, we have previously used cyanoacrylate glue(thin formula), but 
recently at the request of regulatory agencies, we started using Loctite 384 
thermally conductive adhesive to seal the tip. Seems to work well. I advise 
using only a small amount, just enough  to cover the tip of  the thermocouple. 
Not easy to remove,  but we rarely reuse the tips anyways, preferring to 
re-weld them. 

Best Regards, 
Brian C.

Brian Ceresney
Regulatory Lead
Delta-Q Technologies Corp.

Phone: +1.604.566.8827   
E-mail: bceres...@delta-q.com  
Website: www.delta-q.com 

Connect with Delta-Q Technologies Corp
  

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-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: February-26-16 8:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature 
of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape seems not very 
reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is there any other more 
suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high temperature point of 
interest?

The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
rectifier to have such high operating temperature?

Thanks and regards,

Scott  

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[IBM Ken]

Hi Scott;

You may not be required to use it, but the IECEE's Operational Document
5012 (the previous document, OP-108 was superseded by OD-5012 last year)
describes methods for preparing, attaching, extending, and using
thermocouples.

Sections 8.4 through 8.6 cover the attachment of thermocouples to the EUT.
A few of the methods described may be surprising to some.

It is available free of charge here:
http://www.iecee.org/Operational_documents/iecee_documents/od-5012_ed.1.0.pdf

-Ken A.

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Scott Xe  wrote:

> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test
> using Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high
> temperature point of interest?
>
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Scott
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Daniele Conforti]

Take a look at these, taken from UL Data Acceptance Program Tools and IECEE
Guides:


http://ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/00-OP-C0037.pdf


http://www.iecee.org/Operational_documents/iecee_documents/od-5012_ed.1.0.pdf


​Daniele​ Conforti



2016-02-26 18:12 GMT+01:00 Kunde, Brian :

> Scott,
>
> Year ago we used Tac Pac with a spray accelerator. Just place a dab of
> glue where you want it, insert the thermocouple, then spray it with the
> accelerator and it would instantly harden.  To remove, we used some kind of
> solvent (acetone?).  Just a drop would start to soften the glue and within
> 30 seconds you could pull the thermocouple out for re-use.
>
> I don't recall the product numbers but a little research should find them
> easy enough. I think it was something like Loctite 444 adhesive with
> accelerator kit. The accelerator was 7452 and came either in a small spray
> can or in a bottle.  There are probably new formulas today that work just
> as good.
>
> Some glue the thermocouple up slightly from the end and then use thermal
> paste on the end. It is messy and we  didn't really see much difference in
> our test results.
>
> The Other Brian
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 11:53 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
>
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test
> using Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high
> temperature point of interest?
>
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Scott
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
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>
> LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
> information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this
> by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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> well-used formats), large files, etc.
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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Rodney Davis]

I have never heard of taping a thermocouple.
may i suggest simple Loctite and eccelerator for quick application, a dip of 
thermal transfer paste would also be good for good concise measurements.

Rodney Davis

From: Scott Xe 
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 11:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature 
of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape seems not very 
reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is there any other more 
suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high temperature point of 
interest?

The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
rectifier to have such high operating temperature?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

-

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Kunde, Brian]

Scott,

Year ago we used Tac Pac with a spray accelerator. Just place a dab of glue 
where you want it, insert the thermocouple, then spray it with the accelerator 
and it would instantly harden.  To remove, we used some kind of solvent 
(acetone?).  Just a drop would start to soften the glue and within 30 seconds 
you could pull the thermocouple out for re-use.

I don't recall the product numbers but a little research should find them easy 
enough. I think it was something like Loctite 444 adhesive with accelerator 
kit. The accelerator was 7452 and came either in a small spray can or in a 
bottle.  There are probably new formulas today that work just as good.

Some glue the thermocouple up slightly from the end and then use thermal paste 
on the end. It is messy and we  didn't really see much difference in our test 
results.

The Other Brian


-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 11:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature 
of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape seems not very 
reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is there any other more 
suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high temperature point of 
interest?

The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
rectifier to have such high operating temperature?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

-

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[PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Scott Xe]

I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature 
of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape seems not very 
reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is there any other more 
suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high temperature point of 
interest?

The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
rectifier to have such high operating temperature?

Thanks and regards,

Scott  

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Scott Aldous]

Hi Scott,

Though not relevant to your product, UL 1741 has requirements on how to
hold a TC in contact with the surface being measured that may be useful.
Use of tape is not allowed except as strain relief only. If you are a UL
customer, you should be able to access the standard. See clause 43.8.

When I was at UL, we used an adhesive with accelerator, similar to Rodney's
suggestion.

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Rodney Davis 
wrote:

> I have never heard of taping a thermocouple.
> may i suggest simple Loctite and eccelerator for quick application, a dip
> of thermal transfer paste would also be good for good concise measurements.
>
> Rodney Davis
> 
> From: Scott Xe 
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 11:52 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
>
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test
> using Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high
> temperature point of interest?
>
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Scott
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
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> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
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> intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is confidential
> and/or protected by legal privilege. Any unauthorized review, use, copy,
> disclosure or distribution of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
> are not the intended recipient, please notify Mitel immediately and destroy
> all copies of this e-mail. Mitel does not accept any liability for breach
> of security, error or virus that may result from the transmission of this
> message.
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Kunde, Brian]

Brian brings up a good point. Where is the best place to put the thermocouple.

If the location is critical, we use two methods; one is a touchless 
thermometer. These are cheap. Less than $25 at most places like Harbor Freight. 
You are only looking for the hot spots. Method #2 is we go borrow the thermal 
imaging camera from R We can quickly locate the hot spots and mark it with a 
Sharpie. Then glue the thermocouples at those locations.

As the cost of thermal imaging cameras are coming down, we are hoping to buy 
our own very soon.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 12:11 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

UL and CSA have published specific procedures and material recommendations for 
T/C use in Type Tests. Most NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a sample 
power supply is sent to a company lab to verify test technique via TRF data 
veracity.

So the moral of the story is to use whatever technique that enables NRTL/NB 
acceptance of your test data. In general, cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of 
choice, along with Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for limited 
number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the problem. The other issues that 
must be addressed are where the t/c is placed on the component, selection of 
components, and test conditions.

Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for most power supply components.

" ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..." has no meaning. Test conditions 
and component ID? A Tj of 150deg does not mean that you are allowed 150deg on 
the component body. TI, ST, and others have published some good stuff on 
calculating component temps for power semiconductors. That said, not unusual 
for normal operating temp of some components in some SMPS to exceed 100deg. Of 
course, Arrhenius had something to say about this...

In any case, just calculate power dissipation for the diode, then use to calc 
the Tj. This will be your 'sanity check'.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature 
of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape seems not very 
reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is there any other more 
suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high temperature point of 
interest?

The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
rectifier to have such high operating temperature?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Pawson, James]

As a young and naïve student I once used hot melt glue.

There's a clue in the name kids!

James



-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 26 February 2016 16:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature 
of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape seems not very 
reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is there any other more 
suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high temperature point of 
interest?

The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
rectifier to have such high operating temperature?

Thanks and regards,

Scott  

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Richard Nute]

> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..."
has no
> meaning. Test conditions and component ID? A Tj
of
> 150deg does not mean that you are allowed 150deg
on the
> component body. TI, ST, and others have
published some
> good stuff on calculating component temps for
power
> semiconductors. That said, not unusual for
normal operating
> temp of some components in some SMPS to exceed
100deg.
> Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about
this...

For safety purposes, the only temperatures that
count are the temperatures of safeguard
insulations (basic, supplementary, and
reinforced), and accessible parts.  

For years, certification houses have measured
transistors, diodes, and electrolytic capacitors,
but they don't count for preserving the safeguard;
failure of these kinds of components do not create
the possibility of electric shock or thermal burn.
(Failure of these kinds of components may result
in fire, but control of component temperature does
not predict whether or not failure of the
component will cause a fire.)


Rich


> -Original Message-
> From: Brian O'Connell
> [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:11 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach
thermocouple
> to object
> 
> UL and CSA have published specific procedures
and
> material recommendations for T/C use in Type
Tests. Most
> NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a
sample
> power supply is sent to a company lab to verify
test
> technique via TRF data veracity.
> 
> So the moral of the story is to use whatever
technique that
> enables NRTL/NB acceptance of your test data. In
general,
> cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of choice, along
with
> Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for
limited
> number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the
problem. The
> other issues that must be addressed are where
the t/c is
> placed on the component, selection of
components, and test
> conditions.
> 
> Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for
most power
> supply components.
> 
> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..."
has no
> meaning. Test conditions and component ID? A Tj
of
> 150deg does not mean that you are allowed 150deg
on the
> component body. TI, ST, and others have
published some
> good stuff on calculating component temps for
power
> semiconductors. That said, not unusual for
normal operating
> temp of some components in some SMPS to exceed
100deg.
> Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about
this...
> 
> In any case, just calculate power dissipation
for the diode,
> then use to calc the Tj. This will be your
'sanity check'.
> 
> Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach
thermocouple to
> object
> 
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object
under
> temperature rise test using Kapton tape.
Currently I looked
> at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature of
120 degC
> under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The
tape seems
> not very reliable and rigid enough for long
period of testing.
> Is there any other more suitable means to attach
the
> thermocouple to such high temperature point of
interest?
> 
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.
Is it
> normal for the rectifier to have such high
operating
> temperature?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
> -
>
--
--
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Engineering
> Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a
message to the
> list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and
searchable on the
> web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
Online
> Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats),
large files,
> etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including
> how to unsubscribe)
> List rules:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  

Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

[Rodney Davis]

Remember the question. the tape I am using doesn't work at 120 degrees.
Now we have specific IECEE specifications on thermal couple terminals in 
accordance to NRTL standards controlling temperatures on specific component 
bodies.

all this.. and just maybe someone is measuring the end of a solder station 
for fun... Human nature is a funny thing on a Friday afternoons...  thanks for 
the smiles :-)



From: Richard Nute 
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 1:42 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..."
has no
> meaning. Test conditions and component ID? A Tj
of
> 150deg does not mean that you are allowed 150deg
on the
> component body. TI, ST, and others have
published some
> good stuff on calculating component temps for
power
> semiconductors. That said, not unusual for
normal operating
> temp of some components in some SMPS to exceed
100deg.
> Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about
this...

For safety purposes, the only temperatures that
count are the temperatures of safeguard
insulations (basic, supplementary, and
reinforced), and accessible parts.

For years, certification houses have measured
transistors, diodes, and electrolytic capacitors,
but they don't count for preserving the safeguard;
failure of these kinds of components do not create
the possibility of electric shock or thermal burn.
(Failure of these kinds of components may result
in fire, but control of component temperature does
not predict whether or not failure of the
component will cause a fire.)


Rich


> -Original Message-
> From: Brian O'Connell
> [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:11 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach
thermocouple
> to object
>
> UL and CSA have published specific procedures
and
> material recommendations for T/C use in Type
Tests. Most
> NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a
sample
> power supply is sent to a company lab to verify
test
> technique via TRF data veracity.
>
> So the moral of the story is to use whatever
technique that
> enables NRTL/NB acceptance of your test data. In
general,
> cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of choice, along
with
> Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for
limited
> number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the
problem. The
> other issues that must be addressed are where
the t/c is
> placed on the component, selection of
components, and test
> conditions.
>
> Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for
most power
> supply components.
>
> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..."
has no
> meaning. Test conditions and component ID? A Tj
of
> 150deg does not mean that you are allowed 150deg
on the
> component body. TI, ST, and others have
published some
> good stuff on calculating component temps for
power
> semiconductors. That said, not unusual for
normal operating
> temp of some components in some SMPS to exceed
100deg.
> Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about
this...
>
> In any case, just calculate power dissipation
for the diode,
> then use to calc the Tj. This will be your
'sanity check'.
>
> Brian
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach
thermocouple to
> object
>
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object
under
> temperature rise test using Kapton tape.
Currently I looked
> at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature of
120 degC
> under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The
tape seems
> not very reliable and rigid enough for long
period of testing.
> Is there any other more suitable means to attach
the
> thermocouple to such high temperature point of
interest?
>
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.
Is it
> normal for the rectifier to have such high
operating
> temperature?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Scott
>
> -
>
--
--
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Engineering
> Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a
message to the
> list, send your e-mail to 
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and
searchable on the
> web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
Online
> Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats),
large files,
> etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including
> how to unsubscribe)
> List rules:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> 

[PSES] In-situ testing of Machines for CE Mark

[Jim Hulbert]

Fellow Compliance Professionals,

I understand that equipment must be CE marked and comply with all applicable 
Directives before being placed into service within the EU.  However, custom 
one-of-a-kind machines can be a challenge.  Are there any provisions within the 
EU Directives (Machinery & EMC) for in-situ testing & assessment for CE 
compliance of custom machinery equipment?  This would be for a large machine 
designed and manufactured outside the EU, broken down for shipment, and then 
re-assembled at the customer site within the EU.  If in-situ is allowed, that 
would mean shipping into the EU prior to CE marking, so  how would customs be 
handled?

Thanks for any insight.

Jim Hulbert





-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] In-situ testing of Machines for CE Mark

[Doug Nix]

Jim,

In-situ testing is the norm for these kinds of machines in my experience. 
Depending on whether the machine is fully assembled at the manufacturer or not 
determines where the testing is done. If the machine can qualify as a “fixed 
installation” under the EMC Directive (Art. 13), testing may not be required. 
BE VERY CAREFUL with designating a machine or an assembly as part of a fixed 
installation, as the owner is required to understand EMC and maintain the 
compliance of the equipment over its lifetime. Many customers are not too happy 
about that idea.

Doug Nix

> On 26-Feb-16, at 14:20, Jim Hulbert  wrote:
> 
> Fellow Compliance Professionals,
>  
> I understand that equipment must be CE marked and comply with all applicable 
> Directives before being placed into service within the EU.  However, custom 
> one-of-a-kind machines can be a challenge.  Are there any provisions within 
> the EU Directives (Machinery & EMC) for in-situ testing & assessment for CE 
> compliance of custom machinery equipment?  This would be for a large machine 
> designed and manufactured outside the EU, broken down for shipment, and then 
> re-assembled at the customer site within the EU.  If in-situ is allowed, that 
> would mean shipping into the EU prior to CE marking, so  how would customs be 
> handled?  
>  
> Thanks for any insight.
>  
> Jim Hulbert
>  
> 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> >
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas >
> Mike Cantwell >
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher >
> David Heald >
> 


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: