Re: [Emc-users] Compact Flash card for Hard Drive

2009-11-23 Thread Leslie Newell
Hi Kirk,

You must be very lucky. I have a whole stack of dead drives. When a hard 
drive fails it is very often catastrophic failure and you lose 
everything. One day it's working fine, the next day it won't boot.

With Flash if you do get a failure it is likely to only be a few bits 
which can be detected and often recovered with parity and error 
checking. The quoted number of write cycles is the guaranteed minimum 
and most sectors will handle far more. I use a flash microcontroller 
that has a rated life of 100 write cycles. Some of my development boards 
have probably had ten times that or more and I have never had a 
programming failure.


With the setup I use on my lathe for example you don't notice any 
difference in usability. You can load and save files exactly as you 
would with a hard drive. The only noticeable difference is that you lose 
the log files if you reboot.

Les


Kirk Wallace wrote:

 I am not trying to disagree, but my experience has not indicated that
 hard drives are unreliable. I haven't had a hard drive fail on me for
 over ten years. Usually the whole PC gets replaced before a drive goes
 out, and I usually get second hand PC's as a replacement. My file server
 drive is at least eight years old. So from my experience, generally,
 hard drives are pretty darn reliable. 
 
 Right from the get go, with flash, there is all this talk about memory
 cell life, and how best to get by with having data storage without
 actually using it. I get the feeling that you never know when they will
 fail and I just don't need the extra stress in my what's left of my
 life. It seems like getting a gallon of ice cream and leaving it in the
 freezer, so you will always have some. In my house, everyone thinks it's
 there to be eaten, so you can't be shy.

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Re: [Emc-users] Compact Flash card for Hard Dr ive

2009-11-23 Thread Евгений Александрович

 Hi Kirk,
 
 You must be very lucky. I have a whole stack of dead drives. When a hard 
 drive fails it is very often catastrophic failure and you lose 
 everything. One day it's working fine, the next day it won't boot.

Hello Guys,
I use 1Gb DOM Flash as main HDD.
System does work more that one year without any problem. 
But I use Puppy Linux instead Ubuntu.
Puppy  has write cycles only on showdown event.

Evgeny

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[Emc-users] Beginning with HAL

2009-11-23 Thread Adriano Gonçalves
Hello all,

I have some experience in CNC robotics, but im really new to HAL structure.

Im developing a servo driver, with will get the samples from the encoders
and send them to the parallel port in packages, and also will get the duty
cycle information from the parallel port and send it to the motors.

My problem is. I need to write a driver? on the HAL structure to make that
communication protocol that i created, with is:

IN - 8 bytes of data -- lower significant part of the encoder position.
motor1
IN - 8 bytes of data -- higher significant part of the encoder position.
motor1
IN - 8 bytes of data -- lower significant part of the encoder position.
motor2
IN - 8 bytes of data -- higher significant part of the encoder position.
motor2
IN - 8 bytes of data -- lower significant part of the encoder position.
motor3
IN - 8 bytes of data -- higher significant part of the encoder position.
motor3
IN - 8 bytes of data -- lower significant part of the encoder position.
motor4
IN - 8 bytes of data -- higher significant part of the encoder position.
motor4
IN - 8 bytes of data -- lower significant part of the encoder position.
motor5
IN - 8 bytes of data -- higher significant part of the encoder position.
motor5

OUT - 8 bytes of PWM data to the 1st motor
OUT - 8 bytes of PWM data to the 2nd motor
OUT - 8 bytes of PWM data to the 3rd motor
OUT - 8 bytes of PWM data to the 4th motor
OUT - 8 bytes of PWM data to the 5th motor


Is it easy job? and can any1 send me a tutorial about simple HAL
programming.

Tnx alot, Adriano.
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Re: [Emc-users] Compact Flash card for Hard Drive

2009-11-23 Thread Andy Pugh
Just as another data point, many of the Netbooks come with a solid
state drive, and most are running some form of linux too.
An example would be the Asus EePC, for which Crucial suggest the following:
http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/mpartspecs.aspx?mtbpoid=255C2650A5CA7304

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

2009-11-23 Thread Kenneth Lerman
I have some ruby orifices measuring -- two sizes 11.5 and 26 
thousandths. They are set in brass cylinders measuring .125 by .125 with 
a slight tapered end. They also have stainless steel screens to keep 
them from clogging. I usually press fit them into a reamed hole.

I can spare a few if Gene or someone would like to try them.

Ken

dave wrote:
 On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 16:39 +, Andy Pugh wrote:
   
 2009/11/20 Gene Heskett gene.hesk...@gmail.com:

 
 A cube of dry ice sitting on
 it would help, but would raise the available oxygen too.
   
 I am fairly sure it would displace the oxygen (being heavier) and so
 would both cool and reduce oxide formation.

 You might have hit on a cunning plan, and it would look cool too.

 

 Carbon Dioxide doesn't disassociate easily but will if pushed hard. 
 It cannot be used in heat-treating furnaces for that reason but for
 cooling/shielding Al machined parts I think it will work just fine.

 I'm not sure the kinetics of Al oxidation are as aggressive as Gene
 states but cannot find any evidence to support or disallow such a claim.
 The oxidation curve, at least at high temps (600 F), is parabolic so it
 limits fairly quickly. 

 A couple of alternatives for small orifices come to mind. Diesel rebuild
 shops should always have a supply of used injector nozzles. I understand
 the newer ones are carbide. 

 IIRC Gene had a tap remover (crude edm) running at one time. That should
 fab almost any small hole he wants. :-)

 Small volumes of oil/mist might be available by using model airplane
 engines as pumps. 

 Just thinking out loud. Usually dangerous. 

 Dave




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203-426-3769

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[Emc-users] Deadband, FF1 and FF2

2009-11-23 Thread Pat Lyons
Hello-

I'm having some difficulty tuning my P, I, and D variables.  I've used PID
before in school, and understand how they are calculated, but I wanted to
ask about the three terms I don't really understand...

I found in the wiki these explanations:

*FF1 = 2.000 a velocity feedforward, helps reduce following error
proportional to velocity
*
* FF2 = 0.25 an acceleration feedforward, helps reduce foll. error when
accelerating*

However I dont quite understand them-  would someone be willing to maybe
define the math behind these concepts?

and also-  is deadband the window over and under 0 volts that yields no
movement?  does this mean that you can kill steady-state oscillations by
increasing deadband?

Thanks again!!!
-pat
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[Emc-users] Deadband, FF1 and FF2 (cont'd)

2009-11-23 Thread Pat Lyons
Also- if you guys dont mind- please gimme an Idea of what you have these
variables set to and what kinda results they gave you.

Thanks again!!!
-Pat
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Re: [Emc-users] Deadband, FF1 and FF2

2009-11-23 Thread Leslie Newell
FF1 adds a percentage of the commanded velocity to the output. Ideally 
in a steady state FF1 should be high enough that P doesn't have to do 
anything.
FF2 adds a percentage of the commanded acceleration to the output. 
Ideally FF2 should be high enough that D doesn't do anything.
Basically they are creating a rough mathematical model of the motor and 
machine so that emc can calculate the motor's needs in advance. If the 
model was perfect you would not need any P or D but in practice you 
still need them reasonably high.

Here is how I set them up. First set I to zero and set the following 
error limit quite high (say 1 or more). Set P and D as low as possible 
while not tripping the following error limit. Now do long moves at your 
average feed rate and keep turning up FF1 until the following error 
during steady state movement is as low as possible. If you go too high 
the following error will start going up again. Next do a series of short 
moves and keep turning FF2 up until the following error during 
acceleration is as low as possible.

Once you have FF1 and FF2 set up, play with P and D to get rid of the 
remaining errors. Test P and D over a range of feed rates and at rapid 
rate. Finally tweak I to get the steady state error down. Afterwards you 
may need to adjust I and D up a bit more. Expect to spend around 1 day 
per axis to get it spot on.

 and also-  is deadband the window over and under 0 volts that yields no
 movement?  does this mean that you can kill steady-state oscillations by
 increasing deadband?

Only use deadband to stop I from continually tripping between two 
encoder counts at idle. Normally 1/2 of one encoder count is enough 
deadband. You cannot use deadband to stop oscillation. I would set this 
to 0 until the axis is properly tuned.

 Also- if you guys dont mind- please gimme an Idea of what you have these
 variables set to and what kinda results they gave you.
How long is a piece of string? These values are VERY dependent on your 
setup. There are no fixed values that you can use. On my lathe I can get 
0.001 following error at all times with rapid up to 4m/min or 160IPM. 
At feed rate or stationary it is much lower.

Les

Pat Lyons wrote:
 Hello-

 I'm having some difficulty tuning my P, I, and D variables.  I've used PID
 before in school, and understand how they are calculated, but I wanted to
 ask about the three terms I don't really understand...

 I found in the wiki these explanations:

 *FF1 = 2.000 a velocity feedforward, helps reduce following error
 proportional to velocity
 *
 * FF2 = 0.25 an acceleration feedforward, helps reduce foll. error when
 accelerating*

 However I dont quite understand them-  would someone be willing to maybe
 define the math behind these concepts?

 and also-  is deadband the window over and under 0 volts that yields no
 movement?  does this mean that you can kill steady-state oscillations by
 increasing deadband?

 Thanks again!!!
 -pat
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Re: [Emc-users] Deadband, FF1 and FF2

2009-11-23 Thread Jeff Epler
Basically, at no load, a servo amplifier has a characteristic
relationship between the voltage in and the velocity.  If the
relationship is (close to) linear, then FF1 will give an approximately
correct speed even before specifying P, I, D.

On an inch machine, if you set the OUTPUT_SCALE so that a PID output
(PWM/DAC input) of 1.0 makes the axis move at 1.0 inch/second, then the
correct value for FF1 is 1.  More generally, the value of FF1 should be
the PID output (PWM/DAC input) that gives a speed of 1.0 inch/second.

FF2 is like FF1 but for acceleration instead of velocity.  However, I
don't know of a simple rule of thumb for setting FF2.  Instead, I used
halscope to look at the error during G1 moves and tweaked it until the
errors in the accel/decel phase were minimized.  In the case of my own
system, the magnitude of FF2 is about 1% of FF1.

Jeff

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Re: [Emc-users] Beginning with HAL

2009-11-23 Thread yann jautard
Le lundi 23 novembre 2009 11:16:14, Adriano Gonçalves a écrit :
 Hello all,
 
 I have some experience in CNC robotics, but im really new to HAL structure.
 
 Im developing a servo driver, with will get the samples from the encoders
 and send them to the parallel port in packages, and also will get the duty
 cycle information from the parallel port and send it to the motors.
 
 My problem is. I need to write a driver? on the HAL structure to make
  that communication protocol that i created, with is:
 
 IN - 8 bytes of data -- lower significant part of the encoder position.
 motor1
 IN - 8 bytes of data -- higher significant part of the encoder position.
 motor1
 IN - 8 bytes of data -- lower significant part of the encoder position.
 motor2
 IN - 8 bytes of data -- higher significant part of the encoder position.
 motor2
 IN - 8 bytes of data -- lower significant part of the encoder position.
 motor3
 IN - 8 bytes of data -- higher significant part of the encoder position.
 motor3
 IN - 8 bytes of data -- lower significant part of the encoder position.
 motor4
 IN - 8 bytes of data -- higher significant part of the encoder position.
 motor4
 IN - 8 bytes of data -- lower significant part of the encoder position.
 motor5
 IN - 8 bytes of data -- higher significant part of the encoder position.
 motor5
 
 OUT - 8 bytes of PWM data to the 1st motor
 OUT - 8 bytes of PWM data to the 2nd motor
 OUT - 8 bytes of PWM data to the 3rd motor
 OUT - 8 bytes of PWM data to the 4th motor
 OUT - 8 bytes of PWM data to the 5th motor
 
 
 Is it easy job? and can any1 send me a tutorial about simple HAL
 programming.
 
 Tnx alot, Adriano.

Hi Adriano,

I'm not sure I understand what you're tring to do.

Do you need each // port line input to act as a serial input for 8 bits words 
representing low and high part of the data from the encoder ?
Do you need each // port line output to send 8 bits words serial data to your 
PWM hardware ?

If this is the expected behaviour, I'm not sure EMC can work that way.

For what I know, EMC inputs directly data from encoders, and measure time 
difference between pulses, and with that calculates the encoder position.

For the output, what il usually done is to output motor commands on two lines: 
one for direction, one for the step pulses.
1 or 0 on the direction line change the motor direction rotation, each pulse 
on the step line makes the motor rotate for one step in the selected 
direction.


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Re: [Emc-users] Beginning with HAL

2009-11-23 Thread Chris Radek
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 08:16:14AM -0200, Adriano Gon?alves wrote:

 Im developing a servo driver, with will get the samples from the encoders
 and send them to the parallel port in packages, and also will get the duty
 cycle information from the parallel port and send it to the motors.

Several of the existing drivers work this way.  Getting encoder
counts and sending out a velocity command every servo cycle is the
basic HAL model EMC uses to run servos.

The mesa/hostmot2 and motenc drivers do this with a PCI interface, the
ppmc and pluto devices use EPP over the parallel port, and the STG
uses the ISA bus.

Maybe study one or all of those drivers and then come back with more
specific questions?

(Also, the emc-developers list might be a better place for this)

Chris

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Re: [Emc-users] How Exactly does a Mister Work

2009-11-23 Thread Gene Heskett
On Monday 23 November 2009, Kenneth Lerman wrote:
I have some ruby orifices measuring -- two sizes 11.5 and 26
thousandths. They are set in brass cylinders measuring .125 by .125 with
a slight tapered end. They also have stainless steel screens to keep
them from clogging. I usually press fit them into a reamed hole.

I can spare a few if Gene or someone would like to try them.

Ken

Thanks for the offer, Kenneth.  But in my case, I think I'd settle for a 
quality needle valve.  The air flow takes care of the droplet generation 
quite well, and at my low pressures of 20-40 psi, doesn't really make an 
airborne nuisance or hazard. I just haven't hit all the gittin places. Yet. 
:)

Thought exercises here have involved edm to be sure, but my prowling the net 
looking for suitable electrodes to use has been largely futile, as about 1mm 
seems to be the lower limit.  Deep holes with my passive fluid setup are 
another problem, I learned a lot about deep holes while removing those broken 
6-32 taps. :)

The bottom line is that it appears I now have something that works much 
better than tipping an 8oz bottle of cutting oil up and running some down the 
spinning bit.

-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
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Re: [Emc-users] Beginning with HAL

2009-11-23 Thread Jon Elson
Adriano Gonçalves wrote:
 Hello all,

 I have some experience in CNC robotics, but im really new to HAL structure.

 Im developing a servo driver, with will get the samples from the encoders
 and send them to the parallel port in packages, and also will get the duty
 cycle information from the parallel port and send it to the motors.

 My problem is. I need to write a driver? on the HAL structure to make that
 communication protocol that i created, with is:
   
You might take a look at the driver for my boards, hal_ppmc.c in the 
hal/drivers directory.
It does basically the except each board is only 4 axes.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Deadband, FF1 and FF2

2009-11-23 Thread Jon Elson
Pat Lyons wrote:
 Hello-

 I'm having some difficulty tuning my P, I, and D variables.  I've used PID
 before in school, and understand how they are calculated, but I wanted to
 ask about the three terms I don't really understand...

 I found in the wiki these explanations:

 *FF1 = 2.000 a velocity feedforward, helps reduce following error
 proportional to velocity
 *
 * FF2 = 0.25 an acceleration feedforward, helps reduce foll. error when
 accelerating*

 However I dont quite understand them-  would someone be willing to maybe
 define the math behind these concepts?
   
Commanded velocity is computed by differentiating position, multiplied 
by FF1 and
then added to the PID routine's output.

Acceleration is then computed from commanded velocity, X FF2 and added to
the PID output.
 and also-  is deadband the window over and under 0 volts that yields no
 movement?  does this mean that you can kill steady-state oscillations by
 increasing deadband?
   
Yes, that is exactly it, measured in user units, not volts.  So, if 
actual position differs by
up to 10 ^ -5 inch, and deadband is set to 10^-5 inch, then the P output 
will remain zero.

Deadband doesn't COMPLETELY kill oscillation, but it does serve to 
reduce it and allow it
to settle into the deadband.  You usually set it to 1.5 X the dimension 
of an encoder
count.

Jon

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[Emc-users] Halscope interpretation

2009-11-23 Thread Richard Arthur
Looking at a plot in halscope, I was expecting the difference between 
coarse-position-command and joint-pos-fb would be the same as the  
f-error, it appears not to be. Can you explain please?

http://imagebin.org/72688

Thanks,
Richard



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Re: [Emc-users] Compact Flash card for Hard Drive

2009-11-23 Thread Steve Blackmore
On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:06:18 +, you wrote:

You must be very lucky. I have a whole stack of dead drives. When a hard 
drive fails it is very often catastrophic failure and you lose 
everything. One day it's working fine, the next day it won't boot.

You must have had the same batch of Craptor IDE drives (Maxtor's) I had.
All failed at 3 years plus a month or two (70 odd in total) a year
since.

Another thirty PC's fitted with Seagate drives and installed at the same
time are still going strong, as are a handful with Western Digital
Drives. 

I've got a couple of servers with Seagate Ultra SCSI's in that are now 8
years old and are still working fine. They've been relegated to non
critical tasks and they will get trashed when they eventually fail. 

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] Compact Flash card for Hard Drive

2009-11-23 Thread Dave
I've been a diehard Seagate fan but recently I have heard some people 
having problems with 1TB Seagate drives.At some point the dropping 
price and the increasing density is going to become a quality issue - 
perhaps that day is close? 

Yes, I lived through the Maxtor problems also.  I got a lot less than 3 
years out of several.  Fujitsu also had a bunch of hard drive issues 
about 8 years ago.  The problem was so severe that Siemens sent techs 
out to large installations with boxes of replacement drives to do the 
swap outs before they died in the field in Industrial PC 
applications.Those retrofits must have cost a small fortune.

Is your lathe still happily cutting threads?   I cut some axle spindles 
the other day and the first one off the machine accepted a 1 long - 
1-14 nut perfectly.   The pitch was right on. 

I'm using a 200 ppr encoder in counter mode and the PC has no problem 
tracking the index at up to 1200 rpm so far.  I calculated a 1500 rpm 
top speed before it loses index sync.

Threading has been rock solid reliable so far.  I ran out of stock after 
7 parts.  

Dave

Steve Blackmore wrote:
 On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:06:18 +, you wrote:

   
 You must be very lucky. I have a whole stack of dead drives. When a hard 
 drive fails it is very often catastrophic failure and you lose 
 everything. One day it's working fine, the next day it won't boot.
 

 You must have had the same batch of Craptor IDE drives (Maxtor's) I had.
 All failed at 3 years plus a month or two (70 odd in total) a year
 since.

 Another thirty PC's fitted with Seagate drives and installed at the same
 time are still going strong, as are a handful with Western Digital
 Drives. 

 I've got a couple of servers with Seagate Ultra SCSI's in that are now 8
 years old and are still working fine. They've been relegated to non
 critical tasks and they will get trashed when they eventually fail. 

 Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle positioning in degrees

2009-11-23 Thread Leonardo Marsaglia
Well, i think i will improve my pid to make it more accurate and then
continue with the tests.

About the range of the angular axis, if i use the index-enable pulse of the
mesa 5i20 encoder module (wich says that the position is reset to zero when
an index pulse has ocurred) for reset the counter to 0, could this be useful
to do that? also the counter in the gui will be reset to zero? or i have to
make a little of logical with hal to make this work?

Thanks again for your attention.

Regards.

Leonardo.

2009/11/22 Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com

 I haven't tried the ss-wrapped-rotary branch yet but I will shortly. It may
 do what you want in keeping the numbers between 0 - 360. That is the
 specific purpose for it.

 On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:55 AM, robert rob...@innovative-rc.com wrote:

 
   Well the thing that comes to my mind is to make something in hal and
 use
  the
   index pulse to reset the C axis to zero everytime the pulse is
 activated.
  So
   the axis count will go from 0 to 360 degree and then start all over
 again
   from 0.
  
   Well it's just an approach to what i'm trying to do, i really
 appreciate
   your help as always :) so correct me if i'm saying something wrong
  please.
  
 
  that is correct when you switch to C axis mode you will need to reset on
  the first index then go about getting into position
  you could keep clearing on index pulse as you say to give 0 - 360 or you
  can make it so you only reset count for the thirst turn in C axis mode
  then you can have unlimited number of degrees depends what you are
  looking to do.
 
  dont forget about the *pid.*/N/*.maxerrorI* to stop all that error
  windup from long spindle runs.
 
 
  good luck with your setup.
 
 
 
 
 
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