Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
On Sunday 27 February 2011 14:13:12 Erik Christiansen wrote: If the community decided to go with this, I'd buy a couple, and arc up the gnu toolchain for this target, just for the fun of playing with ARM. These chips have one quadrature encoder input. At 100 MHz, and with hardware counters, I'd figure we could handle a couple. However, I'm much more familiar with AVR (Atmel), have the toolchain up to working temperature, and can fix problems more quickly there. There are AVR-based ehternet card, including ethernut 1.3: I have update the http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?ARM with the links from the last postings. Have also a look to the bottom of the http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?AVR page: it is about AVR32 for motor control (with eclipse based ide for linux). I also prefer udp packets. Maybe we are able to concentrate our forced and avoid 12 or more variants of udp packets. Is there some code available on the emc side? BTW: what do you think about PTP (IEEE 1588)? Joachim -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question
Gene, I think it likely the blades you have were not hardened throughout from the factory. Only the cutting edge was induction hardened and you probably removed the heat-treated edge with the first or second re-sharpening. However, to see what you have, why don't you put the back-side of the blade against a grinding wheel and see what kind of sparklers you get. Any old machinist book will have pictures showing the type of sparks that come from higher carbon steel. Glenn -Original Message- From: gene heskett [mailto:ghesk...@wdtv.com] Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 8:42 PM To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question On Sunday, February 27, 2011 10:19:43 pm Edward Bernard did opine: I think your only mistake was buying from Lowe's. I've heard that manufacturers selectively cut corners on tools they supply to the big box stores to make their price points though I've never seen any real evidence. But who knows? At any rate they are definitely price gouging on the knives. Here are Amana knives at half the price: http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5578-planer-jointer-knife-sets-t-1-high-sp ee d-steel-hss.aspx I'd love to follow the link, but we had a couple power bumps about half an hour ago, and my cable modem says there isn't any cable, so no network either. Funny, the loss of cable doesn't effect our tv's, cuz we get what we get off air. We get enough trash programming, and 300 more channels of trash is still trash. 20 min later, cable's back so I have network. I looked at the link, but I'm not sure if any of those knives would fit, not without taking some off the back (or bottom). Their narrowest 6 blade is 5/8 wide, and I don't think the knife pockets are that deep, the current ones are only about 1/2 wide on the wide face. But TBT, if I can use the 5/8 knife, I think I would rather spend about a bill and get 3 of the carbide tipped versions, which are about $33 a knife. That site not having pix of the knives does tend to make me a little cautious. One thing is for sure, with knife prices being gouged, the possibility of a helical carbide tipped drum looks better better. Yup, a Grizzly G0452 is the same machine with a better base, $325 will put a complete carbide tipped drum in it. And Grizzly sells the steel blades at $22 a 3 pack, and they are 5/8 wide when new. So the plain but carbide tipped Amana blade should fit too. Choices, too damned many. I may call those jerks I ordered from cancel in the morning, then go with the Amana carbide tipped blades. I have a Dewalt power planer with carbide blades in it I use for free hand carving those have 1 small nick, but have probably made 500 pounds of shavings over the years as I trimmed shaped the ends of commercial split rails to fit the 2 foot narrower between posts fencing around the front of the place. In 20 years, I've replaced all of them twice now. Supposedly treated stuff too. :( A trick I've used often when I get a knick in the knives is to simply offset one knife and the problem is solved. I went back out and swapped the diamond wheel for a re-inforced fiber about 2.5 in diameter, then went back over those blades again. Tested it on a piece of 1x2 clean yellow pine, the %$#@() nicks were back in 2 passes, before I'd made that 30 stick straight again. These OEM blades are shit steel. I'd say they wuz wheel weights, but a magnet sticks to them. Grrr. Thanks Greg -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz A bug in the hand is better than one as yet undetected. -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question
On 27 February 2011 23:42, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: I made up a wooden jig to mount the dull blades from my Delta JT360 6 jointer into the tiltable vice on may milling machines table. Have you considered making your own blades? Either from HSS (parting tool blanks?) or possibly even from gauge plate? O1 tool steel is inexpensive and seems to work perfectly well for hand tools. I am unconvinced by carbide for wide planers, especially with tough woods like knotty oak. There is a tendency for the blades to crack, and then they are useless. My dad's 6 jointer has planed something like 500 cubic feet of oak to make a set of 10 panelled doors, a panelled partition, two staircases and a balcony with only one set of HSS blades. We do have a universal grinder (with coolant and a 12 pink wheel) for sharpening though. (Thinking about it, it has also helped convert a couple of 8 x 8 pitch-pine joists into 8 vertically sliding sash window frames and a couple of old mahogany packing cases into garage doors too) I think that carbide for wood only makes sense in the context of disposable cutters. If you can re-grind then HSS blades suffer far fewer catastrophic failures. -- atp Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 09:12:50AM +0100, Joachim Franek wrote: Have also a look to the bottom of the http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?AVR page: it is about AVR32 for motor control (with eclipse based ide for linux). Seeing that they are also supported by the gnu toolchain, and the UC3 devices have useful on-chip peripherals, I'd consider these 32 bit chips a viable alternative to ARM, for our uses. I also prefer udp packets. Maybe we are able to concentrate our forced and avoid 12 or more variants of udp packets. Is there some code available on the emc side? That would be inbuilt in the kernel, I'd expect. And in /boot/config-2.6.24-16-rtai, I see: CONFIG_NET_ETHERNET=y So it looks like a compile-time option, and the EMC2 application just uses that. And our RTAI environment probably wouldn't help much toward RT sending of UDP packest, because we'd still be using the linux kernel (non-RT) to push them out. But there's likely to be various open-source UDP implementations around. BTW: what do you think about PTP (IEEE 1588)? I'd not previously seen that. However, high timing precision (or even resolution) doesn't necessarily indicate high throughput, or even frequent transmissions, I think. Hold on a moment ... Not using parport myself, it's only belatedly occurred to me: why not just drop in a PCI parport card? (And skip all this fun serial stuff? :-) Erik -- In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted. -- Bertrand Russell -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
On 02/27/2011 11:42 AM, Jean-Paul Moniz wrote: Ethernet medium can be in realtime take a look at sercos3 for example. It uses standard ethernet hardware. Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry According to the wiki, you can't use standard ethernet hardware: SERCOS III is designed in such a way that no additional network infrastructure (standard Ethernet switches, Hubs, etc.) is required to operate. In fact, no additional standard Ethernet (non-SERCOS III capable) components may be placed within a SERCOS III network, as their presence will adversely affect the timing and synchronization of the network. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SERCOS_III Mark -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
On 02/27/2011 04:22 PM, Peter Blodow wrote: Peter, I work on a daily basis with Ethernet as a system and network administrator. We're talking about a Real Time Ethernet, with a dedicated master and slave network interface, which should preclude any worry of collisions on a duplex connection between the two. Modern systems with full duplex connections no longer really rely on CSMA/CD. As defined in 802.3, that's just one of the protocols that have been used, not the only way. The reason we're talking about Ethernet as one of the possibilities for communications between the computer and the controller is the possibility of the ultimate demise of the parallel port, and the difficulties of real time communications on the USB bus. So, Real Time Ethernet ain't quite your Granddaddy's TCP/IP or USB protocol. Well, Mark, my granddaddy died in 1960. Concerning Ethernet, I was thinking of the times when I worked close to the IEEE 802 group way back when Siemens participated in technical innovation... It's just that I was so happy that PC's, being cheaply available and relatively easy to write programs for, have such a simple port as the parallel is. Well, I either will have to get used to the idea of writing special programs for dedicated processors again or else?? Whenever I had the impression to have cought up on technological development, it was running away again... Peter Blodow Peter, The Granddaddy's TCP/IP was just a figure of speech. We use it a bunch over here when we talk about new and improved things. It was first coined in the US auto industry. I hope I haven't given you the impression I dislike the use of the parallel port for what we are doing with it, far from it. This is just a look ahead, to get some ideas for when the parallel port is no longer supported in the industry. It would be nice if there were some other port available that would work in real time, and deliver the throughput and versatility we need as good or better than the parallel port. Problem with PC's you buy off the shelf, they really aren't designed with industrial use or motion control in mind. They're for Sally to read her email, and play around on Facebook, or the gamers, or the Word/Excel/Powerpoint crowd. We make the best with what we have, but we also need to look to the future when certain features we've become used to having around are no longer there. I've got a bunch of old parallel port cables laying around with Centronix connectors at one end. Who knew they'd stop supplying interfaces that matched up with those cable ends? Mark -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
On Monday 28 February 2011 10:31:32 Erik Christiansen wrote: And our RTAI environment probably wouldn't help much toward RT sending of UDP packest, because we'd still be using the linux kernel (non-RT) to push them out. Thats exactly my question: how to send/receive udp packets on a (additional) rt-eth interface? Has someone done something allready? I have here on my destop 3 variants: - FPGA (http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?FPGA) - RDK-BLDC from LM - EVK1100 which receive and answer udp packets. So I can test this. (And I expext Intel is not telling us ethernet is deprecated.) Do not understand my hardware as a decision. My preference is to select one microprocessor to get something working in short time. And if the comunity decides to go with hardware xy, I buy this. I think there are more people familiar with programming micros compared to the number familiar with VHDL. I think we need some structure for the udp packet! And it is also possible to use this protocoll over the parallel port with micros or FPGA's. Joachim -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Possible eBay bargain.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Denford-quick-change-milling-machine-spindle-30-int-/110655017690?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3hash=item19c38d92da#ht_499wt_1159 I think this might be slightly miss-described. I think it is a QC30 spindle (without the bearings) -- atp Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
On 28 February 2011 10:19, Mark Wendt mark.we...@nrl.navy.mil wrote: It would be nice if there were some other port available that would work in real time, and deliver the throughput and versatility we need as good or better than the parallel port. There is a realtime USB extension for RTAI: https://www.rtai.org/RTAICONTRIB/ However, it does not compile with the current kernel version due to a number of kernel macro changes, and I have a feeling that the version at that link has _never_ compiled as there seems to be some mismatch between the structs in the headers and some of the functions that use them, -- atp Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
Siemens DriveCliq works the same way. Everything is point to point. No external hubs or switches. I think the controller I was using recently had 6 or 8 Ethernet jacks. The drive module had 3, one for the connection to the controller and two for encoder connections. I think the line module (Ac to DC smart power supply) had 3 Ethernet jacks. Hooking everything up was very quick. Dave On 2/28/2011 5:07 AM, Mark Wendt wrote: On 02/27/2011 11:42 AM, Jean-Paul Moniz wrote: Ethernet medium can be in realtime take a look at sercos3 for example. It uses standard ethernet hardware. Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry According to the wiki, you can't use standard ethernet hardware: SERCOS III is designed in such a way that no additional network infrastructure (standard Ethernet switches, Hubs, etc.) is required to operate. In fact, no additional standard Ethernet (non-SERCOS III capable) components may be placed within a SERCOS III network, as their presence will adversely affect the timing and synchronization of the network. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SERCOS_III Mark -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
On 02/28/2011 08:19 AM, Dave wrote: Siemens DriveCliq works the same way. Everything is point to point. No external hubs or switches. I think the controller I was using recently had 6 or 8 Ethernet jacks. The drive module had 3, one for the connection to the controller and two for encoder connections. I think the line module (Ac to DC smart power supply) had 3 Ethernet jacks. Hooking everything up was very quick. Dave Looking again at the Sercos3 implementation, each host requires at least a two-port network interace. That's how they implement either the Line, Ring or other network topology. Each host has to process the data and then pass it on to the next host in a host 2+n topology. The Ring topology looks to be the most efficient, since two channels are being used to move the data around the circuit, and the second channel offers a bit of redundancy of the primary channel goes down. For environments that have multiple machines, this could be an issue with multiple, long network cables going from the master controller to the slave boxes. With that in mind though, it's kind of hard to imagine multiple instances of EMC2 running on one controller PC controlling different machines. For a single control PC sending data to a single control box, this shouldn't really be an issue. Interesting also how the protocol utilizes multiple length packets (or as they call them, Telegrams), anywhere from 84 bytes to 1538 bytes in length. Mark -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
On 02/28/2011 07:37 AM, Mark Wendt wrote: On 02/28/2011 08:19 AM, Dave wrote: Siemens DriveCliq works the same way. Everything is point to point. No external hubs or switches. I think the controller I was using recently had 6 or 8 Ethernet jacks. The drive module had 3, one for the connection to the controller and two for encoder connections. I think the line module (Ac to DC smart power supply) had 3 Ethernet jacks. Hooking everything up was very quick. Dave Looking again at the Sercos3 implementation, each host requires at least a two-port network interace. That's how they implement either the Line, Ring or other network topology. Each host has to process the data and then pass it on to the next host in a host 2+n topology. The Ring topology looks to be the most efficient, since two channels are being used to move the data around the circuit, and the second channel offers a bit of redundancy of the primary channel goes down. For environments that have multiple machines, this could be an issue with multiple, long network cables going from the master controller to the slave boxes. With that in mind though, it's kind of hard to imagine multiple instances of EMC2 running on one controller PC controlling different machines. For a single control PC sending data to a single control box, this shouldn't really be an issue. Interesting also how the protocol utilizes multiple length packets (or as they call them, Telegrams), anywhere from 84 bytes to 1538 bytes in length. Mark Sounds like standard ethernet frames. I would imagine they would use standard frames because ethernet hardware is expecting that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_frame Moses -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
Sercos 3 was one example of the use of ethernet for real time control. Another example is ethernet i/p. Again it uses standard ethernet technology and allows the use of switches between the host and slave. It all comes down to timing. AB claims they do +/- 100 uS without modified hardware. With IEEE 1588 compliant hardware they can get it down much lower. It all comes down to the application and what is required. Refer to ODVA's CIP Motion and CIP Sync for more information. I use AB PLC's and Bosch Rexroth drives using ethernet I/P communication on a daily basis without 1588 hardware and have found it to offer exceptional performance. My comments were relating to someone indicating that ethernet could not be used in a real-time application. Thanks Jp Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Mark Wendt mark.we...@nrl.navy.mil Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:37:19 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Reply-To: mark.we...@nrl.navy.mil, Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp On 02/28/2011 08:19 AM, Dave wrote: Siemens DriveCliq works the same way. Everything is point to point. No external hubs or switches. I think the controller I was using recently had 6 or 8 Ethernet jacks. The drive module had 3, one for the connection to the controller and two for encoder connections. I think the line module (Ac to DC smart power supply) had 3 Ethernet jacks. Hooking everything up was very quick. Dave Looking again at the Sercos3 implementation, each host requires at least a two-port network interace. That's how they implement either the Line, Ring or other network topology. Each host has to process the data and then pass it on to the next host in a host 2+n topology. The Ring topology looks to be the most efficient, since two channels are being used to move the data around the circuit, and the second channel offers a bit of redundancy of the primary channel goes down. For environments that have multiple machines, this could be an issue with multiple, long network cables going from the master controller to the slave boxes. With that in mind though, it's kind of hard to imagine multiple instances of EMC2 running on one controller PC controlling different machines. For a single control PC sending data to a single control box, this shouldn't really be an issue. Interesting also how the protocol utilizes multiple length packets (or as they call them, Telegrams), anywhere from 84 bytes to 1538 bytes in length. Mark -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
On 02/28/2011 08:56 AM, Moses McKnight wrote: Looking again at the Sercos3 implementation, each host requires at least a two-port network interace. That's how they implement either the Line, Ring or other network topology. Each host has to process the data and then pass it on to the next host in a host 2+n topology. The Ring topology looks to be the most efficient, since two channels are being used to move the data around the circuit, and the second channel offers a bit of redundancy of the primary channel goes down. For environments that have multiple machines, this could be an issue with multiple, long network cables going from the master controller to the slave boxes. With that in mind though, it's kind of hard to imagine multiple instances of EMC2 running on one controller PC controlling different machines. For a single control PC sending data to a single control box, this shouldn't really be an issue. Interesting also how the protocol utilizes multiple length packets (or as they call them, Telegrams), anywhere from 84 bytes to 1538 bytes in length. Mark Sounds like standard ethernet frames. I would imagine they would use standard frames because ethernet hardware is expecting that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_frame Moses Almost, except that standard Ethernet frames are typically of non-variable length, adjustable only by changing the MTU, and are padded to maintain the frame length being used. The Sercos3 seemingly allows variable length frames. Mark -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question
On Monday, February 28, 2011 09:07:45 am Glenn Edwards did opine: Gene, I think it likely the blades you have were not hardened throughout from the factory. Only the cutting edge was induction hardened and you probably removed the heat-treated edge with the first or second re-sharpening. However, to see what you have, why don't you put the back-side of the blade against a grinding wheel and see what kind of sparklers you get. Any old machinist book will have pictures showing the type of sparks that come from higher carbon steel. Glenn I doubt that I have removed more that .025 from the edges of the blades, total. They're just crap. In any event, I first found them at ereplacementy.parts.com but then found Amanda blades at toolstoday.com. Wuz gonna get the edged ones but the reviews said they weren't sharp, although once sharpened they were great. Steel T1 18% tungsten blades (highly rated) were $34 a 4 pack, so I bought 3=12 blades for a bit less, and now I'm waiting the human show up for work to cancel the other order. I still like the idea of carbide, and I could probably tune up the carbide ones in the jig I made yesterday, but go back to the diamond wheel. I have tuned up carbide milling tools with those diamond wheels provided its all off the bottom to restore them. And when I get a round tuit, I need to do another 1/4, seems emc miss- configured the .hal file and ran my spindle backwards while carving some cast iron the other day. Since I had it running wide open, I didn't notice anything but what seemed like excessive noise. Duh. Fixed now of course. But the bit is badly chipped. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz At the foot of the mountain, thunder: The image of Providing Nourishment. Thus the superior man is careful of his words And temperate in eating and drinking. -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
Mark Wendt wrote: On 02/28/2011 08:56 AM, Moses McKnight wrote: [snip] Sounds like standard ethernet frames. I would imagine they would use standard frames because ethernet hardware is expecting that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_frame Moses Almost, except that standard Ethernet frames are typically of non-variable length, adjustable only by changing the MTU, and are padded to maintain the frame length being used. The Sercos3 seemingly allows variable length frames. This isn't how it works. There is a minimum frame size (512 bits), and a maximum transfer unit (usually 1500 bytes or so, sometimes up to 9000 bytes on a gigabit line with jumbo frame support). As long as they're between those limits, the packets can be any size. -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question
On Monday, February 28, 2011 09:27:16 am andy pugh did opine: On 27 February 2011 23:42, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: I made up a wooden jig to mount the dull blades from my Delta JT360 6 jointer into the tiltable vice on may milling machines table. Have you considered making your own blades? Either from HSS (parting tool blanks?) or possibly even from gauge plate? O1 tool steel is inexpensive and seems to work perfectly well for hand tools. I am unconvinced by carbide for wide planers, especially with tough woods like knotty oak. There is a tendency for the blades to crack, and then they are useless. My dad's 6 jointer has planed something like 500 cubic feet of oak to make a set of 10 panelled doors, a panelled partition, two staircases and a balcony with only one set of HSS blades. We do have a universal grinder (with coolant and a 12 pink wheel) for sharpening though. (Thinking about it, it has also helped convert a couple of 8 x 8 pitch-pine joists into 8 vertically sliding sash window frames and a couple of old mahogany packing cases into garage doors too) I think that carbide for wood only makes sense in the context of disposable cutters. If you can re-grind then HSS blades suffer far fewer catastrophic failures. Chuckle, sounds like my 13 craftsman planer. I hauled it to NY a couple years ago and attacked a barn full of dirty (It had been sawed for several years spent some of that time out in the weather) cherry Rusty wanted to use for Wainscoating in the basement family room of the new house they had built. One set of fairly sharp blades did several ton of that over about a 4 day period, but I did stick Rusty with the cost of a set, about $59 IIRC. Now they are always out of stock, so while the planer is a well built planer, its the last tool like that I will ever buy from snears takeitback. I built a sharpening jig to hold those over a flat faced rouge stone that runs wet at about 400 rpm, sweet. You can't believe what that can do for a dull hand plane blade! -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz In 1869 the waffle iron was invented for people who had wrinkled waffles. -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] PATA/IDE port as a parallel port
On Monday, February 28, 2011 09:52:59 am fi did opine: On Fri, 2011-02-25 at 08:48 -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote: On Fri, 2011-02-25 at 15:46 +0200, fi wrote: ... snip Is hal_parport.c the proper file to modify for 16 bit I/O over PATA ports ? Are other files to be modified ? ... snip From my study of the parallel port drivers, 90% of the code is for setting up the structs for managing the setup strings, and sharing multiple ports. When that is out of the way, it comes down to a simple outb or inb to a few registers. I suspect the PATA interface might be the same except that 90% of the code will be PATA specific, so the parport code may not be helpful. If one is going to go through the effort of a new design, I would vote for pursuing a PLX based PCI or PCI-X interface like this one: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/pci1_15_02_sch_wiki.pdf (from this page: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?AVR ) (It seems to me, the old ISA slots would be perfect for real-time interfacing.) I am guessing here, but the only active part of the parallel port driver is in/outb which lives well with real-time. This may not be the case with PATA or PCI. Study of the PCI FPGA examples may shed light on this. On the other hand, if your time is money, just buying an existing PCI or PCI-X motion card would be cheaper. Hi Regarding obsolescence, there are PCI/PCI-EXPRESS to IDE PATA adapters which may already work with pci_8255.c driver and 8255 boards but what I would love to get is 16 bits wide I/O , so for now I'm looking at hal_skeleton.c and hal_parport.c OTOH, I used an internal PATA HDD Rack for some testing with _normal_ kernel. I've played with some 573 574 and 245 , with 245(not being a latch) were fast pulses which maybe are useful for fast steps in step/dir configurations. Next weekend I'll try a PCI to IDE adapter . OT 1: is possible to make timing of step pulse to be half of desired moving time like 1ms pulse for a 2 ms move or 3s pulse for 6s move? Instead of many short pulses to give just a single pulse with half the timing ? EMC's stepgen knows before writing the pulse how long a move will take so it will be easy for a modified step/dir servo to do optimized moves. OT 2: I have bad latency PC's so here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test it says: Numbers over 1 millisecond (1,000,000 nanoseconds) mean the PC is not a good candidate for EMC, regardless of whether you use software stepping or not. Where we get in trouble with huge latencies is that in particular with steppers, when a huge lag hits, the motor which was stepping merrily along at 150 rpm, simply cannot come to a stop during the time the step signal was expected, and then resume that 150 rpm rate when the steps restart. Extremely high voltages and surge currents from the driver may help, but generally speaking it will likely overshoot a step or 4 getting stopped, losing its position reference, and will stall completely on the restart as it cannot accelerate back to that 150 rpm in one step. From a servo point of view, where the machine reads the encoders and evaluates the present position and issues corrective settings to the servos, which will blindly follow merrily along until the next such update, a huge latency could very well cause an overshoot. Carving PCB's, with traces 10 mills wide, aren't going to be 'pretty' although they may work without hand patching if its not too bad. OTOH, its not that hard to find hardware whose latency isn't that bad, and frankly the huge majority of that seems to be in the video drivers. I am absolutely forced to use the vesa driver regardless of the card installed in my milling machines box as its latency will be 50 times worse if I let it load the linux ati/radeon drivers. Ditto for when it had an nvidia card in it, even the linux nv driver was a latency disaster, and the nvidia driver itself, while it made good gfx using firefox etc, had 300+ millisecond latencies. The vesa driver has been the salvation driver for me. However, that older Mach-Speed mobo also has a built in video, using shared memory, and I think most of the people here have found the earlier implementations of onboard video have had to disable that, and waste a pci slot for an aftermarket card just to get rid of the shared memory problems. However, from reading between the lines on this list, the Intel DM510 boards are capable of working well with their onboard video. And the prices for new construction using that board are quite reasonable. From a hobby point of view I don't care how much time it takes to mill a good PCB as long as it is good ; so according to the statement above I can't use EMC2 ? I would not make that blanket statement. Good machines for EMC can often be had from the off-lease resellers at quite reasonable prices. Many of those are built like tanks
Re: [Emc-users] Possible eBay bargain.
On Mon, 2011-02-28 at 11:06 +, andy pugh wrote: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Denford-quick-change-milling-machine-spindle-30-int-/110655017690?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3hash=item19c38d92da#ht_499wt_1159 I think this might be slightly miss-described. I think it is a QC30 spindle (without the bearings) I concur, if the transition in the middle of the shaft is threaded, my guess is it is a spindle shaft. It looks to be in good shape, but I don't know that I would use Quick-Change in a new design. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp
Sercos 3 was one example of the use of ethernet for real time control. Another example is ethernet i/p. Again it uses standard ethernet technology and allows the use of switches between the host and slave. It all comes down to timing. AB claims they do +/- 100 uS without modified hardware. With IEEE 1588 compliant hardware they can get it down much lower. It all comes down to the application and what is required. Refer to ODVA's CIP Motion and CIP Sync for more information. I use AB PLC's and Bosch Rexroth drives using ethernet I/P communication on a daily basis without 1588 hardware and have found it to offer exceptional performance. My comments were relating to someone indicating that ethernet could not be used in a real-time application. RT-Net is a good candidate for an open source implementation. (http://www.rtnet.org/) RT-Net provides drivers for a collection of network cards that work under a real time kernel (RTAI). In its raw form, it can just be used to schedule delivery of Ethernet packets. You implement the protocol. To support real time communications, there are 3 specifications defined - rtmac, which defines the frame format, rtcfg, which is used by the master to find, and configure the slaves, and tdma (time division multiple access) which slices the bandwidth of the line into packets, then these packets sliced into slots. It also does clock synchronisation. The rtnet protocols can coexist with other Ethernet protocols on the line at the same time, but that seems a bit risky in a real time environment. There are some issues with it - the network card drivers seem to require a dedicated IRQ, so it can be hard to set up. The rtnet rtai software wants to control the rtai internal clock, so it needs to be made to play nicely with emc. It is open source, so theoretically a slave could be built on any microcontroller powerful enough to run an embedded linux, but it would still a realtime kernel and network drivers - I was looking and writing a dedicated slave firmware for the microcontroller. -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:42 PM, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Greets all; I made up a wooden jig to mount the dull blades from my Delta JT360 6 jointer into the tiltable vice on may milling machines table. The tilted it to 44 degrees, one less than the OEM grind. Then mounted a dremel diamond disk in the mill and lowered it till it was about touching, turned the spindle on started sweeping. You're not supposed to use diamond cutting/abrasive tools for cutting steel---if the interface temperature is allowed to rise anywhere near transition points (i.e. you have sparks) carbon dissolves into iron, i.e. diamonds lose their cutting power really quickly. I have read of people dulling their diamond wheels in just few aggressive hot passes. I think it's possible to defeat that by aggressive cooling, but the general recommendation was against trying. Why not use a grinding wheel? -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] waiting for s. axis
I am adding 5th axis (W) to my mill's configuration and I get a message waiting for s. axis repeated several times. What does it mean? thanks -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] waiting for s. axis
look at your .ini file in the TRAJ section does the AXES = 5 or AXES = 9? the W axis is the ninth axis On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: I am adding 5th axis (W) to my mill's configuration and I get a message waiting for s. axis repeated several times. What does it mean? thanks -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- dos centavos -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] waiting for s. axis
I set AXES=5. Should I say 9? I only have 5 axes. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:48 PM, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: look at your .ini file in the TRAJ section does the AXES = 5 or AXES = 9? the W axis is the ninth axis On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: I am adding 5th axis (W) to my mill's configuration and I get a message waiting for s. axis repeated several times. What does it mean? thanks -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- dos centavos -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] waiting for s. axis
I think you need to set it to nine. Try it and see. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:52 PM, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: I set AXES=5. Should I say 9? I only have 5 axes. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:48 PM, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: look at your .ini file in the TRAJ section does the AXES = 5 or AXES = 9? the W axis is the ninth axis On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Igor Chudov ichu...@gmail.com wrote: I am adding 5th axis (W) to my mill's configuration and I get a message waiting for s. axis repeated several times. What does it mean? thanks -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- dos centavos -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- dos centavos -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] waiting for s. axis
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 09:52:15PM -0600, Igor Chudov wrote: I set AXES=5. Should I say 9? I only have 5 axes. http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/config_ini_config.html#sub:[TRAJ]-section -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] waiting for s. axis
Chris, and Stuart, it was EXACTLY as you said! Thanks! i On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:58 PM, Chris Radek ch...@timeguy.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 09:52:15PM -0600, Igor Chudov wrote: I set AXES=5. Should I say 9? I only have 5 axes. http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/config_ini_config.html#sub:[TRAJ]-section -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] W axis working! One problem remains, residual current to the motor.
I have the W axis working. http://www.chudov.com/projects/Bridgeport-Series-II-Interact-2-CNC-Mill/34-Adding-Servo-Control-to-Knee/ When commanded, the W axis moves up and down, roughly as instructed, according to my G0 W... commands. It is not super precise or well tuned, yet, but really not so bad and compares favorably to cranking the knee handle. I will try to evaluate backlash and such, when I get more time to tune this system. For those too lazy to look at pictures, the W axis is a 1,000+ chunk of metal, moved up and down by a 15:1 DC gearmotor, that turns a shaft that, in turn, turns a ACME nut on the knee screw. There is a pneumatic assist on the knee, which helps a lot. There is one problem, however: after the motion stops, ppmc.0.DAC.3 does not go down to zero, and instead stays high, while the system is not moving. I explain this by remaining under power to move one more hair distance against friction, nothing is moving, and nothing is there to decrease the output. If it decreases a little bit, no disaster should happen, the knee will not drop, the system is self braking etc. Instead, current is provided to the motor, the not enough to move the rotor, but enough to heat it up too much. So. How would I somehow configure EMC to stop providing any current to W, when not really moving it? i -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
