Re: [Emc-users] Need help with X200 VFD modbus

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 03/03/2016 09:21 PM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> No joy.  I have the RT-preempt (have a 7i92 ethernet control card, 
> does not handle the modbus though).
> 
> uname -a Linux localhost 3.2.0-4-rt-686-pae #1 SMP PREEMPT RT Debian 
> 3.2.73-2+deb7u2 i686 GNU/Linux

Great, this helps illuminate your situation.


> Sudo was required for some of these.  Made errors without.
> 
> cd src ./configure --with-realtime=uspace ./configure: line 2025: 
> config.log: Permission denied ./configure: line 2035: config.log: 
> Permission denied

config.log is produced by the configure script.  I bet you ran configure
as root earlier and it created config.log owned by root, and now when
you try to run configure as you (non-root) it won't let you overwrite
root's config.log.

Your options are to either chown all the incorrectly root-owned files to
be owned by you (this would be my preference), or live as root in this
directory from now on.  The chown could be done like this (in the root
directory of the git checkout, the one with .git/ in it):

sudo chown -R $(id -u).$(id -g) .


> ok well then... sudo ./configure --with-realtime=uspace
> 
> sudo make
> sudo make setuid
> source ../scripts/rip-environment
> which x200_vfd
> /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/x200_vfd

Yay, this is good!


> Applications Menu-> Linuxcnc -> select HAL file:
> ./7i92_spid.hal:313: execv(x200_vfd): No such file or directory

Ok, this won't work because the GUI menu runs in a different context
that hasn't seen your "source ../scripts/rip-environment", so it doesn't
know to look in /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin.

You then tried this, which is the right way to go:


> cd ~/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin
> linuxcnc -> select HAL file:
> ./7i92_spid.hal:31: execv(/home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/rtapi_app): 
> Permission denied
> ./7i92_spid.hal:31: waitpid failed 
> /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/rtapi_app gantrykins

You're super close.  I bet this is probably fallout from running the
build as root up above.  If you do the chown i suggested, then this
should start working.

If it doesn't, run "ls -la
/home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/" and paste the output into an email
and we'll figure it out.


> I did try "sudo linuxcnc", but then my HAL file isn't there, only 
> "Sample Configurations". The whole "My Configurations" tab is gone?

Right, because linuxcnc looks for My Configurations in your home
directory, and root has a different home directory than you do.  Run as
you, not as root.  Linuxcnc has setuid helpers that become root
automatically in the few places where it's needed.


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Re: [Emc-users] Need help with X200 VFD modbus

[dannym]

No joy.  I have the RT-preempt (have a 7i92 ethernet control card, does not 
handle the modbus though).

uname -a
Linux localhost 3.2.0-4-rt-686-pae #1 SMP PREEMPT RT Debian 3.2.73-2+deb7u2 
i686 GNU/Linux

Sudo was required for some of these.  Made errors without.

cd src
./configure --with-realtime=uspace
./configure: line 2025: config.log: Permission denied
./configure: line 2035: config.log: Permission denied

ok well then...
sudo ./configure --with-realtime=uspace

sudo make
sudo make setuid
source ../scripts/rip-environment
which x200_vfd
/home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/x200_vfd

Applications Menu-> Linuxcnc -> select HAL file:
 ./7i92_spid.hal:313: execv(x200_vfd): No such file or directory

cd ~/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin
linuxcnc -> select HAL file:
./7i92_spid.hal:31: execv(/home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/rtapi_app): 
Permission denied
./7i92_spid.hal:31: waitpid failed /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/rtapi_app 
gantrykins
./7i92_spid.hal:31: /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/rtapi_app exited without 
becoming ready
./7i92_spid.hal:31: insmod for gantrykins failed, returned -1
Shutting down and cleaning up LinuxCNC...

cd ~/linuxcnc-2.7.4/scripts
 ... same thing
cd ~/linuxcnc-2.7.4/
 ... same thing

I note that in running from linuxcnc-2.7.4, the execv-can't-find-x200_vfd isn't 
the error anymore.

I did try "sudo linuxcnc", but then my HAL file isn't there, only "Sample 
Configurations".  The whole "My Configurations" tab is gone?


Danny

 Sebastian Kuzminsky  wrote: 
> On 03/03/2016 10:04 AM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> > Forgot to mention- yes there was a "Submakefile" in the wj200_vfd 
> > directory.  We moved that to the x200_vfd directory and blanket-replaced 
> > wj200 to x200 in that as well.
> >
> > It compiles ok.  Like I say, starting Linuxcnc, it exits and the error info 
> > it shows says "execv x200_vfd: no such file or directory".
> 
> If i correctly understand the changes you've made then after a 
> successful compile you should have both bin/x200_vfd and bin/wj200_vfd 
> in your linuxcnc checkout directory.
> 
> You're building linuxcnc from source, what we call a "run in place" 
> configuration (as opposed to building linuxcnc into a debian package, 
> installing the deb, and running it from the system install path).  This 
> means you need to run "source ./scripts/rip-environment" in order to 
> find the x200_vfd executable (in the terminal you're staring linuxcnc 
> from).  So something like this:
> 
> cd src
> ./configure
> make
> sudo make setuid
> source ../scripts/rip-environment
> 
> At that point, "which x200_vfd" should find it in the bin dir of your 
> linuxcnc source tree, and starting linuxcnc (from that terminal) should 
> let it start.
> 
> 
> Ah, one other thing to check.  Are you running on rtai or rt-preempt? 
> You can check with "uname -a".  If you're on rt-preempt your configure 
> line needs to be "./configure --with-realtime=uspace".  I think it 
> detects RTAI automatically, so no special configure argument is needed 
> for that (though I always provide one anyway, 
> "--with-realtime=/usr/realtime-*").
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sebastian Kuzminsky


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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[rayj]

I have removed mt3 by putting a bolt in the chuck and then putting 
something forked on the bolt above the head and using that to bang on. 
Best thing I've found is a "Wonder Bar" and then put a block under the 
other end to make it level.  If the bolt slides out of the chuck jaws 
you may have to use a small bolt and stick the head into the chuck so it 
catches behind the jaws and put a nut on the bottom to hammer on.  It's 
a lot of fiddling around, but it has worked for me.

Hope this helps.

Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN

The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, 
understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. 
And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, 
egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men 
admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. 
-John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)

On 03/03/2016 12:59 PM, Ed wrote:
> On 03/03/2016 11:14 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>> On 3 March 2016 at 16:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
 Not normally. You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked wedges:
 http://www.amazon.com/Wedge-Sets-Set-No-WEDGE/dp/B0067BSG9S/ref=sr_1_1
 ?ie=UTF8&qid=1457019896&sr=8-1&keywords=jacobs+wedge
>>> Luverly, just luverly...
>> Especially so when the JT is bigger than the MT so there is no
>> shoulder to hook on to.
>>
> If the shank is bad then weld a couple of pieces of square stock onto it
> and lever on that. I have removed bad ones by rapping the side of the
> shank sharply with a small hammer. Rude and crude and unrefined but it
> works.
>
> Ed.
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 03 March 2016 13:59:59 Ed wrote:

> On 03/03/2016 11:14 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 3 March 2016 at 16:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >>> Not normally. You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked
> >>> wedges:
> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Wedge-Sets-Set-No-WEDGE/dp/B0067BSG9S/ref=sr
> >>>_1_1 ?ie=UTF8&qid=1457019896&sr=8-1&keywords=jacobs+wedge
> >>
> >> Luverly, just luverly...
> >
> > Especially so when the JT is bigger than the MT so there is no
> > shoulder to hook on to.

The MT3 did have a shoulder of sorts.

> If the shank is bad then weld a couple of pieces of square stock onto
> it and lever on that. I have removed bad ones by rapping the side of
> the shank sharply with a small hammer. Rude and crude and unrefined
> but it works.
>
> Ed.
>
I popped both of these with nothing more than a 3/8" rod stuck in the 
chucks mouth and the jaws brought down for a loose fit.  Couple whacks 
with a 16oz claw hammer.  It was driving right on the end face of the 
JT-3.

Put the R8 spud back in the mill & dialed the jt-3, eccentric, not even 
round, 1.3 thou wobble at the top, and .7 thou at the bottom.  Put the 
lathes chuck on it with one tap, obviously worse wobble, so I put the 
one that came with the mill back on. On a rod in the chuck, 27 thou of 
wobble 2" from the chucks jaws.  Obviously better...

Knocked it back off, pulled the R8-JT3 and cleaned the inside of the 
spindle and the spud, put it back together, still the jt-3 had some 
wobble but it was less by .1 thou.  Slapped the mills OEM chuck back on 
it, measured 3 thou at the jaws, 5 thou 2" away.

I'm standing there in disbelief with a WTF expression on my face when I 
came to the consclusion that the 2 instances of sloppy were mostly 
canceling each other, so I removed the whole thing and gave the back end 
of the R8 an ALU padded couple of whacks to set it good.  Put it back 
in, still measured 5 thou 2" from the jaws.  Since thats at least 50 
thou better than it was, we'll see how it works next time.

Occasionally on does hit a lick. ;-)

Thanks Ed.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[John Kasunich]

I once had to deal with a chuck that someone had glued the arbor in with 
red locktite.  (And we didn't know that it was locktited.)  First tried to use
the wedges, no luck.  Eventually we wrote off the arbor and cross-drilled 
it so we could put a dowel pin in there and have something more robust
to push on.  Still no luck.  Wound up chucking the chuck in a lathe and
boring the damn arbor out of it.  We ultimately reduced it to a shell about
0.010" thick and then peeled it out of the hole.  What a PITA.




On Thu, Mar 3, 2016, at 01:59 PM, Ed wrote:
> On 03/03/2016 11:14 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 3 March 2016 at 16:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >>> Not normally. You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked wedges:
> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Wedge-Sets-Set-No-WEDGE/dp/B0067BSG9S/ref=sr_1_1
> >>> ?ie=UTF8&qid=1457019896&sr=8-1&keywords=jacobs+wedge
> >> Luverly, just luverly...
> > Especially so when the JT is bigger than the MT so there is no
> > shoulder to hook on to.
> >
> If the shank is bad then weld a couple of pieces of square stock onto it 
> and lever on that. I have removed bad ones by rapping the side of the 
> shank sharply with a small hammer. Rude and crude and unrefined but it 
> works.
> 
> Ed.
> 
> 
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-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[Ed]

On 03/03/2016 11:14 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 3 March 2016 at 16:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>> Not normally. You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked wedges:
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Wedge-Sets-Set-No-WEDGE/dp/B0067BSG9S/ref=sr_1_1
>>> ?ie=UTF8&qid=1457019896&sr=8-1&keywords=jacobs+wedge
>> Luverly, just luverly...
> Especially so when the JT is bigger than the MT so there is no
> shoulder to hook on to.
>
If the shank is bad then weld a couple of pieces of square stock onto it 
and lever on that. I have removed bad ones by rapping the side of the 
shank sharply with a small hammer. Rude and crude and unrefined but it 
works.

Ed.


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Re: [Emc-users] Need help with X200 VFD modbus

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 03/03/2016 10:04 AM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> Forgot to mention- yes there was a "Submakefile" in the wj200_vfd directory.  
> We moved that to the x200_vfd directory and blanket-replaced wj200 to x200 in 
> that as well.
>
> It compiles ok.  Like I say, starting Linuxcnc, it exits and the error info 
> it shows says "execv x200_vfd: no such file or directory".

If i correctly understand the changes you've made then after a 
successful compile you should have both bin/x200_vfd and bin/wj200_vfd 
in your linuxcnc checkout directory.

You're building linuxcnc from source, what we call a "run in place" 
configuration (as opposed to building linuxcnc into a debian package, 
installing the deb, and running it from the system install path).  This 
means you need to run "source ./scripts/rip-environment" in order to 
find the x200_vfd executable (in the terminal you're staring linuxcnc 
from).  So something like this:

cd src
./configure
make
sudo make setuid
source ../scripts/rip-environment

At that point, "which x200_vfd" should find it in the bin dir of your 
linuxcnc source tree, and starting linuxcnc (from that terminal) should 
let it start.


Ah, one other thing to check.  Are you running on rtai or rt-preempt? 
You can check with "uname -a".  If you're on rt-preempt your configure 
line needs to be "./configure --with-realtime=uspace".  I think it 
detects RTAI automatically, so no special configure argument is needed 
for that (though I always provide one anyway, 
"--with-realtime=/usr/realtime-*").


-- 
Sebastian Kuzminsky

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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 03 March 2016 12:08:40 R.L. Wurdack wrote:

> Or in the case of my Ming Dynasty machine they just fall out at
> inopportune times...
>
Usually when it can do the most damage, BTDT, Murphy is alive and well 
despite my attempts to collect a bounty for the guy.

>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Bruce Layne"  To: "Enhanced
> Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 8:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly
>
> > On 03/03/2016 10:45 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> >> You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked wedges
> >
> > I thought the recommended method of removing a Jacobs chuck was to
> > use them to machine with an end mill.
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 03 March 2016 12:14:03 andy pugh wrote:

> On 3 March 2016 at 16:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> Not normally. You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked
> >> wedges:
> >> http://www.amazon.com/Wedge-Sets-Set-No-WEDGE/dp/B0067BSG9S/ref=sr_
> >>1_1 ?ie=UTF8&qid=1457019896&sr=8-1&keywords=jacobs+wedge
> >
> > Luverly, just luverly...
>
> Especially so when the JT is bigger than the MT so there is no
> shoulder to hook on to.

Darn it Andy, you just have to inject reality into our musings. :)


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[andy pugh]

On 3 March 2016 at 16:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> Not normally. You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked wedges:
>> http://www.amazon.com/Wedge-Sets-Set-No-WEDGE/dp/B0067BSG9S/ref=sr_1_1
>>?ie=UTF8&qid=1457019896&sr=8-1&keywords=jacobs+wedge
>
> Luverly, just luverly...

Especially so when the JT is bigger than the MT so there is no
shoulder to hook on to.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[R.L. Wurdack]

Or in the case of my Ming Dynasty machine they just fall out at inopportune 
times...


- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce Layne"  To: "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly


>
>
> On 03/03/2016 10:45 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>> You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked wedges
>
> I thought the recommended method of removing a Jacobs chuck was to use
> them to machine with an end mill.
>
>



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Re: [Emc-users] Need help with X200 VFD modbus

[dannym]

Forgot to mention- yes there was a "Submakefile" in the wj200_vfd directory.  
We moved that to the x200_vfd directory and blanket-replaced wj200 to x200 in 
that as well.

It compiles ok.  Like I say, starting Linuxcnc, it exits and the error info it 
shows says "execv x200_vfd: no such file or directory".

Yeah moving the executable to a new directory manually was pretty crude.  I 
deleted it from the new destination immediately. Didn't work, anyhow, just 
generated that new RTAPI error.

Danny


 Sebastian Kuzminsky  wrote: 
> On 03/02/2016 09:22 PM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> > OK, modified the .comp file with the new reg numbers and blanket replaced 
> > "wj200" to "x200".
> >
> > first tried:
> > cd /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/src
> > sudo ./configure
> > sudo make
> > sudo make setuid
> 
> That looks nearly right, but you shouldn't run most of the build as 
> root.  ./configure and make should be run as your regular user, only the 
> last "sudo make setuid" step should be run with sudo.
> 
> 
> > That compiled ok, but running linuxcnc got "execv x200_vfd no such file or 
> > directory".
> >
> > Tried your halcompile link.  Build, but still the same exev error.  
> > x200_vfd executable was in ~/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin.
> 
> Did you modify the code in src/hal/user_comps/wj200_vfd while leaving 
> the directory name unchanged, or did you copy 
> src/hal/user_comps/wj200_vfd to src/hal/user_comps/x200_vfd?
> 
> If you did the latter like i suggested, then you'd have to also edit 
> src/Makefile to add your new driver.  Search for wj200 in that file and 
> add your new x200 right next to it, run "make" again, and it should 
> build and install.
> 
> If you can push a branch with your changes to github I'll have an easier 
> time seeing what you're doing and offering useful help.
> 
> 
> > So just stabbing, we moved x200_vfd into /usr/bin, and now it gives:
> > RTAPI: ERROR: could not open shared memory (No such file or directory)
> > HAL: ERROR: could not initialize RTAPI
> > ./7i92_spid.hal:313: waitpid failed x200_vfd x200_vfd
> > ./7i92_spid.hal:313: x200_vfd exited without becoming ready
> 
> You shouldn't copy files outside of your home directory by hand.  I 
> understand you're experimenting, trying to get things to work, this is 
> just and FYI/PSA from an old unix geek  ;-)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sebastian Kuzminsky


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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[Bruce Layne]

On 03/03/2016 10:45 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked wedges

I thought the recommended method of removing a Jacobs chuck was to use 
them to machine with an end mill.




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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 03 March 2016 10:45:15 andy pugh wrote:

> On 3 March 2016 at 15:31, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > I am assuming a drift punch
> > can reach the inner face of the spud to bounce them out?
>
> Not normally. You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked wedges:
> http://www.amazon.com/Wedge-Sets-Set-No-WEDGE/dp/B0067BSG9S/ref=sr_1_1
>?ie=UTF8&qid=1457019896&sr=8-1&keywords=jacobs+wedge

Luverly, just luverly...  And I don't hardly have some more of those.  
But they do look make able. Miniature "pickle forks", as for ball joint 
serviceing.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Need help with X200 VFD modbus

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 03/02/2016 09:22 PM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> OK, modified the .comp file with the new reg numbers and blanket replaced 
> "wj200" to "x200".
>
> first tried:
> cd /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/src
> sudo ./configure
> sudo make
> sudo make setuid

That looks nearly right, but you shouldn't run most of the build as 
root.  ./configure and make should be run as your regular user, only the 
last "sudo make setuid" step should be run with sudo.


> That compiled ok, but running linuxcnc got "execv x200_vfd no such file or 
> directory".
>
> Tried your halcompile link.  Build, but still the same exev error.  x200_vfd 
> executable was in ~/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin.

Did you modify the code in src/hal/user_comps/wj200_vfd while leaving 
the directory name unchanged, or did you copy 
src/hal/user_comps/wj200_vfd to src/hal/user_comps/x200_vfd?

If you did the latter like i suggested, then you'd have to also edit 
src/Makefile to add your new driver.  Search for wj200 in that file and 
add your new x200 right next to it, run "make" again, and it should 
build and install.

If you can push a branch with your changes to github I'll have an easier 
time seeing what you're doing and offering useful help.


> So just stabbing, we moved x200_vfd into /usr/bin, and now it gives:
> RTAPI: ERROR: could not open shared memory (No such file or directory)
> HAL: ERROR: could not initialize RTAPI
> ./7i92_spid.hal:313: waitpid failed x200_vfd x200_vfd
> ./7i92_spid.hal:313: x200_vfd exited without becoming ready

You shouldn't copy files outside of your home directory by hand.  I 
understand you're experimenting, trying to get things to work, this is 
just and FYI/PSA from an old unix geek  ;-)


-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 03 March 2016 09:06:40 John Alexander Stewart wrote:

> Gene;
>
> Smart move.
>
> My ER collet chucks reside on my mills, and almost never get removed.
> (boring head, cutoff saw, but do not have a drill chuck that fits the
> spindles)
>
> I do have some smaller drill chucks (expensive, good) that I have on
> parallel shanks, trimmed so that they will go into an ER collet, and
> bottom out, but not stick out too much, maybe 2-3mm. The shanks I have
> are 1/2", so fit well within an 13-12mm collet.
>
> Sometimes it is nice to have a (good) drill chuck for the smaller
> drills, otherwise sometimes 3 hands are required (hold drill, keep
> spindle from rotating, tighten ER collet nut)
>
> John.

BTDT, made a pin type spindle brake.  Works well, but isn't always ultra 
handy. Biggest nuisance is turning the spindle to find the locking hole.
I've considered putting in an orient module to do that, enabled when the 
spindle has stopped, but my encoder is a bit coarse for that as I'd have 
to figure out a way to make it hunt about the correct position & let the 
pin drop in as the hole goes by at 20 revs.

The bearings are going to hell in the head, couple weeks of 24/7 equ of 
125% top speed on them now, so I am going to have to get some top 
quality replacements for all the ball bearing in the back gear setup, 
and watch hoss's video on replaceing the tapered rollers in the spindle 
itself with ball bearings too.  Its beginning to sound as if one or more 
of the $0.65 ball bearings on the countershaft is eating its cage 
material, drowning out any gear noises.  My drive conversion, with its 
somewhat higher speed capability, probably isn't helping.

The OEM controller was set to turn 2250 fwd, about 1100 in reverse. Would 
not have been ideal to control with LCNC, so one of Jon Elsons servo 
drivers, and about 2kw worth of 126 volt dc for that (that's the one I 
have to soft start else it trips the sevice breaker), and it can do 
right at 2800 in either direction.  Direction changes were so brutal 
that I put an accel limit module in the control path in the hal file, 
but it can still switch directions, probably current limited to around 
175% of the motors draw in the servo, from 2500 fwd to 2500 in reverse 
in just one fat second.  At 300 revs, pecking a 3mm tap about 1/2 turn 
farther each time, with an extra pause while out of the hole for tap 
cleaning and a drop of buttercutt, I can tap a hole as deep as the taps 
active threads are long in hard alu or cast or ductile iron.  At 300 
revs, when the g33.1 hits the reverse, its just a click and its backing 
out.

That crooked chucks excessive runnout is a tap breaker though, already 
busted one for me.  It took a while for the garage air to clear of its 
blue tint after that. :(

It has occurred to me that I have a second chuck the same size, also 
chinese, that came with the tool kit for the 7x12, with a j3-mt3 spud in 
it.  I may see if I can drive the spud out of both & see it it will run 
any truer than this one when on the r8 spud. I am assuming a drift punch 
can reach the inner face of the spud to bounce them out?  IDK, haven't 
taken a penlight and looked. If I get to the garage today, thats the 2nd 
thing I'll do, first of course being finding a suitable place to park my 
coffee cup.  My back got overworked a couple days back, I spent 
yesterday in the "body" shop, and a new medication I started last night 
hasn't yet kicked in. So my progress today is both slow and carefull, 
even the coffee cup is too heavy when full.

Even half the runnout this one has would be a marked improvement.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[andy pugh]

On 3 March 2016 at 15:31, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> I am assuming a drift punch
> can reach the inner face of the spud to bounce them out?

Not normally. You remove Jacobs tapers with a pair of forked wedges:
http://www.amazon.com/Wedge-Sets-Set-No-WEDGE/dp/B0067BSG9S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1457019896&sr=8-1&keywords=jacobs+wedge

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 03 March 2016 10:29:22 Dave Cole wrote:

> On 3/2/2016 11:39 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Dave Cole  
wrote:
> >> Spur gear transmissions are inherently noisy.   I think that is why
> >> helical gears exist. However they typically have higher load
> >> capacity for the same width of gear (as I recall).
> >
> > It is because the teeth are wider because they are at an angle.
> > But you can't swap in a helix gear without dealing with the end
> > thrust. You'd need to have a bearing that can handle the axial load.
> > A timing belt would be even more quiet.
>
> As I recall from my education years ago the reason why helicals are
> quieter is that more than one tooth is engaged at a time.  So there is
> not an abrupt end to one tooth engagement and then the engagement of
> the next.   That's why you almost never see straight cut gears in
> automotive transmissions.
>
> The General Motors 4 speed Muncie "Rock Crusher" manual transmission
> used low angle helical gears which made it almost a spur gear
> transmission.  It was popular for drag cars since it could stand up to
> high torque shock loads. But the transmission made a lot of noise
> due to the low gear angle.
>
> Bewarned:  Car Porn at the link below!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_053IZjH7c

Yep, heard that for 100k+ miles all those years ago.  I kept waiting for 
the tach to be exercised though :)
>
> Dave
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 03 March 2016 10:27:35 sam sokolik wrote:

> The z axis on the k&t has the z axis servo mounted on the base of the
> machine.  The power is transferred to the spinning ball nut through a
> linear ball spline and atleast 3 sets of zero backlash gear sets.
> (including right angle set)
>
> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/zaxis/gears1.JPG
>
> The small set of gears has a spacer between that you grind to take out
> the backlash.  This take the backlash out of all the gears in the
> drive train.
>
> (it really is pretty impressive - we have the backlash down to about
> .0002".  ( when we are a bit more energetic - we want to take a bit
> more off the washer))
>
> sam

You are going to do a new mirror on the K&T, for the hubble that doesn't 
need bifocals? :)

> On 3/3/2016 5:21 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 3 March 2016 at 10:00, Gregg Eshelman  wrote:
> >> Herringbone gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> >
> > "Herringbone" isn't a term used in the industry, as far as I know.
> > They tend to call them "double helical"
> >
> > A double helical gear needs one element to have axial float to share
> > the load equally.
> >
> > A double helical rack and pinion with deliberate axial thrust would
> > give a backlash-free drive for a router table.
> >
> > I once saw a large _triple_ helical gearbox at David Brown's (where
> > my dad used to work). That's a really stupid idea as the gears can't
> > float to equalise load.
> > (My dad pointed it out to me with a "They thought that was better in
> > 1930, can you tell me why it's a stupid idea?")
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Dave Cole]

On 3/2/2016 11:39 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:
>
>> Spur gear transmissions are inherently noisy.   I think that is why
>> helical gears exist. However they typically have higher load
>> capacity for the same width of gear (as I recall).
>>
> It is because the teeth are wider because they are at an angle.
> But you can't swap in a helix gear without dealing with the end thrust.
> You'd need to have a bearing that can handle the axial load.
> A timing belt would be even more quiet.
>

As I recall from my education years ago the reason why helicals are 
quieter is that more than one tooth is engaged at a time.  So there is 
not an abrupt end to one tooth engagement and then the engagement of the 
next.   That's why you almost never see straight cut gears in automotive 
transmissions.

The General Motors 4 speed Muncie "Rock Crusher" manual transmission 
used low angle helical gears which made it almost a spur gear 
transmission.  It was popular for drag cars since it could stand up to 
high torque shock loads. But the transmission made a lot of noise 
due to the low gear angle.

Bewarned:  Car Porn at the link below!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_053IZjH7c


Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[sam sokolik]

The z axis on the k&t has the z axis servo mounted on the base of the 
machine.  The power is transferred to the spinning ball nut through a 
linear ball spline and atleast 3 sets of zero backlash gear sets.  
(including right angle set)

http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/zaxis/gears1.JPG

The small set of gears has a spacer between that you grind to take out 
the backlash.  This take the backlash out of all the gears in the drive 
train.

(it really is pretty impressive - we have the backlash down to about 
.0002".  ( when we are a bit more energetic - we want to take a bit more 
off the washer))

sam

On 3/3/2016 5:21 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 3 March 2016 at 10:00, Gregg Eshelman  wrote:
>> Herringbone gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> "Herringbone" isn't a term used in the industry, as far as I know.
> They tend to call them "double helical"
>
> A double helical gear needs one element to have axial float to share
> the load equally.
>
> A double helical rack and pinion with deliberate axial thrust would
> give a backlash-free drive for a router table.
>
> I once saw a large _triple_ helical gearbox at David Brown's (where my
> dad used to work). That's a really stupid idea as the gears can't
> float to equalise load.
> (My dad pointed it out to me with a "They thought that was better in
> 1930, can you tell me why it's a stupid idea?")
>


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Re: [Emc-users] junk Drill chuck from Grizzly

[John Alexander Stewart]

Gene;

Smart move.

My ER collet chucks reside on my mills, and almost never get removed.
(boring head, cutoff saw, but do not have a drill chuck that fits the
spindles)

I do have some smaller drill chucks (expensive, good) that I have on
parallel shanks, trimmed so that they will go into an ER collet, and bottom
out, but not stick out too much, maybe 2-3mm. The shanks I have are 1/2",
so fit well within an 13-12mm collet.

Sometimes it is nice to have a (good) drill chuck for the smaller drills,
otherwise sometimes 3 hands are required (hold drill, keep spindle from
rotating, tighten ER collet nut)

John.
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Dave Cole]

Spur gear transmissions are inherently noisy.   I think that is why 
helical gears exist. However they typically have higher load 
capacity for the same width of gear (as I recall).
I have a camshaft drive in a hotrod engine that was sold as a noisy gear 
drive and it is.   It sounds like a supercharger.
I need to replace it.  It makes it difficult to hear what else is going 
on in the engine.

Dave


On 3/2/2016 9:52 AM, Tomaz T. wrote:
> I'm working on design and analysis of spur gear transmission with the help of 
> Solidworks. What I need to do is 10:1 transmission ratio, using module 1 size 
> spur gears.
> Here is what I simulated in SW:
> - 12 teeth spur gear generated from SW toolbox- 120 teeth spur gear generated 
> from SW toolbox- 10RPM motor applied to smaller spur gear- 1Nm force applied 
> to bigger spur gear (simulating some constant friction in opposite direction 
> of rotation)
> Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r13c84ob2ov7dvh/Gearing_1.jpg?dl=0
> After running simulation and plot graph of angular velocities, reading is 
> this (blue line is bigger spur):
> Image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j59pc4cbss3ldhj/Graph_1.jpg?dl=0
>
> Is this normal that transmitted velocity isn't linear anymore, or is there 
> something wrong with analysis or maybe SW generated spur gears are not 
> suitable?
>
>
>
>
>   
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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[andy pugh]

On 3 March 2016 at 10:00, Gregg Eshelman  wrote:
> Herringbone gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Herringbone" isn't a term used in the industry, as far as I know.
They tend to call them "double helical"

A double helical gear needs one element to have axial float to share
the load equally.

A double helical rack and pinion with deliberate axial thrust would
give a backlash-free drive for a router table.

I once saw a large _triple_ helical gearbox at David Brown's (where my
dad used to work). That's a really stupid idea as the gears can't
float to equalise load.
(My dad pointed it out to me with a "They thought that was better in
1930, can you tell me why it's a stupid idea?")

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission

[Gregg Eshelman]

You can pin a pair of opposite angled helical gears together to make 
herringbone gears. That eliminates axial thrust while keeping the benefits of 
helical gears. Machining them in one piece is quite a tricky operation.
Herringbone gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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| Herringbone gear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaA herringbone gear, a 
specific type of double helical gear,[1] is a special type of gear that is a 
side to side (not face to face) combination of two helical gears ... |
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| View on en.wikipedia.org | Preview by Yahoo |
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  From: Chris Albertson 
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)  
 Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 9:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spur gear transmission
   
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Dave Cole  wrote:

> Spur gear transmissions are inherently noisy.  I think that is why
> helical gears exist.    However they typically have higher load
> capacity for the same width of gear (as I recall).
>

It is because the teeth are wider because they are at an angle.
But you can't swap in a helix gear without dealing with the end thrust.
You'd need to have a bearing that can handle the axial load.
A timing belt would be even more quiet.

   
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