Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

[Chris Albertson]

Apple's Time Machine and Linux can interact but it involves using
networking sophisticated ways, iSCSI and SAN and all that...  I mentioned
Apple and TM only because it showed that incremental backs with space
constraints could be made easy to understand for casual computer users.

The idea seems to have caught on.   There are many backup systems that do
what TM does and as you found one that even tries to re-create the user
interface.

One simple way to use TM with Linux is to keep your files on the Mac but
export them via NFS to Linux.   This way the host Max OS system does the
backup.   Setting this up is not hard Mac OS is exactly like Linux is the
way NFS is configured, same files in /etc.



On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 2:39 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 23:43, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
> > But no one has mentioned the name of something that will backup only the
> > changes, that can be started in the background to accomplish this
> > instant incremental backup while one is working on a project.
>
> Well, there was a mention of the Apple / OSX system earlier, though
> that is no real help for a linux User.
>
> Apple "Time machine" is pretty slick though, direct from the file
> manager interface you can scroll andy document, folder or drive
> backwards in time to any point you choose.
>
> https://youtu.be/ZLhvEfiOADk?t=97
>
> Google suggests "Cronopete" as a Linux alternative, but I know
> _nothing_ about it.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 16 January 2019 05:36:33 andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 23:43, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > But no one has mentioned the name of something that will backup only
> > the changes, that can be started in the background to accomplish
> > this instant incremental backup while one is working on a project.
>
> Well, there was a mention of the Apple / OSX system earlier, though
> that is no real help for a linux User.
>
> Apple "Time machine" is pretty slick though, direct from the file
> manager interface you can scroll andy document, folder or drive
> backwards in time to any point you choose.
>
> https://youtu.be/ZLhvEfiOADk?t=97
>
> Google suggests "Cronopete" as a Linux alternative, but I know
> _nothing_ about it.

I found some stuff that could doi it, turned off by default in geany, so 
now I have time stamped full backups of everything I edit with it.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion360 gcode= "Radius to end arc differs from radius start"

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 16 January 2019 11:50:05 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 01/16/2019 01:42 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 15 January 2019 22:42:11 Jon Elson wrote:
> >> I use a bunch of C programs I have written over the years to
> >> write G-code for specific operations (round holes, slots,
> >> etc.) and these all use R word arcs in quadrants.
> >>
> >>
> >> Tell me more about this please.  It is not mentioned in the pdf dox
> >> I get from master yet.
>
> Well, it is NOT part of LinuxCNC.  See :
>
> http://pico-systems.com/gcode.html
>
> for info on some of these.  I really ought to update this
> page with all of my newest programs.
> I've added a few more, with ramp-down and a program to cut
> ovals with half-circle round ends to the slots.  There are
> old DOS executables for these, as well as very generic C source.
>
> I have converted one of my programs to Python, and got it to
> give identical output to the C program.  But, I'm not fully
> up to speed on Python, so have not converted the rest, yet.
>
> These do not start the spindle, so you have to edit them all
> manually.  I often stitch together 10 - 30 of these
> individual features to make a complete program, starting the
> spindle at the desired speed in the beginning, and removing
> all M02 lines except the last one.
>
> Jon
>
>
Guilty...

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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Fusion360 gcode= "Radius to end arc differs from radius start"

[Jon Elson]

On 01/16/2019 01:42 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Tuesday 15 January 2019 22:42:11 Jon Elson wrote:



I use a bunch of C programs I have written over the years to
write G-code for specific operations (round holes, slots,
etc.) and these all use R word arcs in quadrants.


Tell me more about this please.  It is not mentioned in the pdf dox I get
from master yet.



Well, it is NOT part of LinuxCNC.  See :

http://pico-systems.com/gcode.html

for info on some of these.  I really ought to update this 
page with all of my newest programs.
I've added a few more, with ramp-down and a program to cut 
ovals with half-circle round ends to the slots.  There are 
old DOS executables for these, as well as very generic C source.


I have converted one of my programs to Python, and got it to 
give identical output to the C program.  But, I'm not fully 
up to speed on Python, so have not converted the rest, yet.


These do not start the spindle, so you have to edit them all 
manually.  I often stitch together 10 - 30 of these 
individual features to make a complete program, starting the 
spindle at the desired speed in the beginning, and removing 
all M02 lines except the last one.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 16 January 2019 04:46:14 Chris Albertson wrote:

> The words "level 0", and "level 1" and so on make me think your
> software must be based in the UNIX "dump" utility.  And dump is about
> 20 years old now.

Nope, using the latest tar.

> Typically what people did back then was but scripts in the UNIX contab
> that ran dump every night.  We used carting tapes back then so it made
> sense to have a weekly "level 0" tape and a nightly "level 1".

What does eclipse do?
>
> Many people use rsync in a crontab scrip too.

Thats not what rsync is designed for. Using it for this is scary.

> There are MANY GUI point and click backup systems that actually are
> just graphical front ends for either dump or rsync and cron.
>
> Today Apple's Time Machine (TM) is the best there is but it only runs
> on Mac OS.   It uses a really smart trick.  Callbacks can be
> registered www the the file system so TM can be told of every change
> and does not have to waste time scanning for changes then every hour
> it write those changes to a disk which is either local or on a server.
>   After Apple showed how to make this REALLY easy to use, lots of
> people took that idea and tried to make something like Time Machine. 
> Even MS Window has something like this now.
>
> You wanted a list with links.  Someone already did this
> https://alternativeto.net/software/time-machine/?platform=linux
>
> I have used a few of the ones on the above list.  The last one was
> Deja Dup because it was simple to set up.  But of last I've take all
> the important files off the Linux machines and moved them to a
> Synology NAS server.  Now all my development files are NFS mounted
> from the Synology so the files are the SAME on every computer.  then I
> useSynology's "hyper backup" to make a local and a cloud based
> versioned backup.   Actually Synolgy is Linus but Hyper Backup is not
> open source.
>
> What use depends on your needs. Do you have a files server?  Are there
> Windows and Macs in the mix?   And importantly, how much data do you
> have.

I'd say 100 megs of space, to be served by a directory amanda would 
ignore on the 2T drive it uses for nightly's would be a great plenty for 
working on a machine configuration stuffs. Thats what this align thingy 
basically is. And in this case, I am inclined to think diff might be the 
tool. Basically do a full when deciding that its stable enough to be 
used for further testing, an anchorpoint, then anytime a change write is 
done, generate a new diff.
>
> > I'm forced to comment here, because while I am a long term (about 20
> > years now) user of amanda, so I am quite familiar with its concept
> > of doing a level 0 within the timeframe of runspercycle, usually
> > stated in days, with a chefs choice of backup levels out to 4 or 5
> > used in between fulls, with an eye toward adjusting the schedule to
> > always use the same amount of storage on the media during an
> > individual run.
> >
> >
> > But no one has mentioned the name of something that will backup only
> > the changes, that can be started in the background to accomplish
> > this instant incremental backup while one is working on a project.
> > Does linux actually have such a beast? Or is it generally a
> > component of the development environment used.
> >
> > IOW, names please. Your own favorite poisons.
> >
> > What I'd expect to see at the base is inotifywait session's covering
> > the directories involved with your project, that would immediately
> > return the name of the file just written, which when that name is
> > returned to the parent caller, which in turn causes the parent to
> > make a one higher level backup of that file. Probably ought to have
> > a button to make a new level 0 at the end of the days work if its
> > working so far but incomplete.  Something along those lines. But I
> > don't see a utility like that in the repo's.

I've installed backintime but clueless about whats next. Since this box 
has spinning rust, tons of it on a 1T drive, I've made a backup dir 
in /home/gene, and will see if I can configure it to backup only 2 
directories, the home configdir for this new machine, and the nc_files 
and deeper. Or, since the gui shows progile selections, it looks as if 
that could be 2 separate backups. Then see if inotifywait can be used as 
a trigger.

Looks like fun & surprises, help, since theres none in the manpage, in 
configuring this toy appreciated.

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Backup practice [Was: Re: color me pissed

[Erik Christiansen]

On 15.01.19 10:22, Chris Albertson wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 4:36 PM Erik Christiansen 
> wrote:
...
> >
> > In reality, there's always more than one way to eat an elephant, so
> > there's no real need to complicate life by making backups a growing
> > agglomeration of deltas¹. The nifty and very *nixy rsync utility solves
> > the write corruption problem directly. Rsync always verifies that each
> > transferred file was correctly reconstructed on the receiving side,
> 
> You missed the point.   The scenario is like this..   You have a file in
> the text editor window and you save it but unknown to you only there are
> 100 lines missing from the center of the file.  Perhaps you ment to delete
> a word but accidentally deleted 100 lines.  Perhaps the editor has a bug
> but in any case the file is corrupted on your main hard drive.

Perhaps not. The problem with writing only deltas is that one corrupted
delta, whether from media deterioration or any other cause, corrupts all
archives after that. (As Jon has also pointed out.)

Worth realising is that the problem of making a mistake while editing is
not a backup issue, but a versioning issue, so recovery comes
conveniently from the version control system. That has tagged versions.
The backup melange does not. Rummaging back to a specific version in the
backup media would be a very clumsy way to attempt to address a version
recovery.

I have experienced media decay, but in 40 years no serious loss of data
due to editor fumbles - and that despite 30 of those years spent as a
professional software developer.

...
> 
> Funny how all the self-invented methods are EXACTLY what the professions
> did in the 1970's  It works but a human operator has to "do stuff" the
> chance of human error or forgetting something is large.  Now days it is
> set up with a few mouse clicks and "just works" and runs for years with not
> effort.

I _am_ a professional from the 1970's¹, and the methods which preserved
the code of many international software developments, powering
telecommunications products, still work fine here, just scaled down.
No need for the latest clicky-mousey interference with a good simple CLI
experience.

Erik

¹ 1978. Most of my methods are more 1990s - just no GUI crap, thanks.

-- 
The meta-problem here is that the configuration wizard does all the approved
rituals (GUI with standardized clicky buttons, help popping up in a browser,
etc. etc.) but doesn't have the central attribute these are supposed to achieve:
discoverability. That is, the quality that every point in the interface has
prompts and actions attached to it from which you can learn what to do next.
   - Eric Raymond, in "The Luxury of Ignorance."


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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 23:43, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> But no one has mentioned the name of something that will backup only the
> changes, that can be started in the background to accomplish this
> instant incremental backup while one is working on a project.

Well, there was a mention of the Apple / OSX system earlier, though
that is no real help for a linux User.

Apple "Time machine" is pretty slick though, direct from the file
manager interface you can scroll andy document, folder or drive
backwards in time to any point you choose.

https://youtu.be/ZLhvEfiOADk?t=97

Google suggests "Cronopete" as a Linux alternative, but I know
_nothing_ about it.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] Massive backup Re: color me pissed

[Chris Albertson]

Hard drives cost abut $24 to $30 per TB.   It is now the best backup
storage.
Backblaze offers "unlimited" backup storage for $5 per month  this is even
cheaper than hard drives if you have a LOT of data.




On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 3:18 AM Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> LTO-6 drives can put 2.5TB uncompressed onto one tape and can be picked up
> at a decent price since they're 2 generations behind the latest. LTO-7 puts
> 6TB uncompressed onto a tape but used/surplus drives are still going for
> over $1K.LTO-8 does 12TB uncompressed but you'll need to drop over $3K for
> a drive.
> I wouldn't go for any older than an LTO-5 with 1.5TB capacity. 1 through 4
> were 100GB, 200GB, 400GB, 800GB uncompressed capacities.
>
> LTO = Linear Tape Open, or as Hewlett Packard, IBM, and Quantum call it,
> Ultrium.
>
-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

[Chris Albertson]

The words "level 0", and "level 1" and so on make me think your software
must be based in the UNIX "dump" utility.  And dump is about 20 years old
now.
Typically what people did back then was but scripts in the UNIX contab that
ran dump every night.  We used carting tapes back then so it made sense to
have a weekly "level 0" tape and a nightly "level 1".

Many people use rsync in a crontab scrip too.

There are MANY GUI point and click backup systems that actually are just
graphical front ends for either dump or rsync and cron.

Today Apple's Time Machine (TM) is the best there is but it only runs on
Mac OS.   It uses a really smart trick.  Callbacks can be registered www
the the file system so TM can be told of every change and does not have to
waste time scanning for changes then every hour it write those changes to a
disk which is either local or on a server.   After Apple showed how to make
this REALLY easy to use, lots of people took that idea and tried to make
something like Time Machine.  Even MS Window has something like this now.

You wanted a list with links.  Someone already did this
https://alternativeto.net/software/time-machine/?platform=linux

I have used a few of the ones on the above list.  The last one was Deja Dup
because it was simple to set up.  But of last I've take all the important
files off the Linux machines and moved them to a Synology NAS server.  Now
all my development files are NFS mounted from the Synology so the files are
the SAME on every computer.  then I useSynology's "hyper backup" to make a
local and a cloud based versioned backup.   Actually Synolgy is Linus but
Hyper Backup is not open source.

What use depends on your needs. Do you have a files server?  Are there
Windows and Macs in the mix?   And importantly, how much data do you have.






> I'm forced to comment here, because while I am a long term (about 20
> years now) user of amanda, so I am quite familiar with its concept of
> doing a level 0 within the timeframe of runspercycle, usually stated in
> days, with a chefs choice of backup levels out to 4 or 5 used in between
> fulls, with an eye toward adjusting the schedule to always use the same
> amount of storage on the media during an individual run.
>
>
> But no one has mentioned the name of something that will backup only the
> changes, that can be started in the background to accomplish this
> instant incremental backup while one is working on a project. Does linux
> actually have such a beast? Or is it generally a component of the
> development environment used.
>
> IOW, names please. Your own favorite poisons.
>
> What I'd expect to see at the base is inotifywait session's covering the
> directories involved with your project, that would immediately return
> the name of the file just written, which when that name is returned to
> the parent caller, which in turn causes the parent to make a one higher
> level backup of that file. Probably ought to have a button to make a new
> level 0 at the end of the days work if its working so far but
> incomplete.  Something along those lines. But I don't see a utility like
> that in the repo's.
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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