Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[Chris Albertson]

First step is to understand (1) what you have and (2) what you need.

So,  If the spindle revolves one time, How many cycles of the sin wave do
you see?  What is the amplitude of the sine wave (in volts peak to peak)?
Does the amplitude change with the spindle speed?You need to either
read this information from the encoder's data sheet or measure it


I assume you need a 5-volt square wave quadrature signal.   A potential
problem with square wave converters is noise.   But lets first see what the
sin wave signal looks like.

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:03 PM andrew beck 
wrote:

> Chris.  I'm still learning electronics.  Could you expand a bit on this
> please.
>
> Maybe draw a napkin sketch of it.  Sorry to be a bit slow on the uptake
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, 5:46 AM Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
>
> > A sin and cos are 90 degrees apart.  All you should need to do is
> threshold
> > the signal and you have A/B quadrature.Many ways to threshold it but
> > you want the one with least noise.
> >
> > A simple way to convert a sin wave to a square wave is to amplify then
> clip
> > it with diodes.   A comparator can also convert the signal.
> >
> > The point to remember is that sin/cos is quadrature and all that is
> needed
> > is some signal conditioning.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:46 PM andrew beck 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi guys
> > >
> > > wondering if anyone has any ideas here.
> > >
> > > I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has a
> 5v
> > > sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor with a
> > > schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in New
> Zealand
> > > about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down torque.  If I
> > run
> > > the card in full encoder closed loop control in the vfd I can get 200
> > > percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for 30 seconds or so which is
> > > pretty useful.  I am currently just running the drive in Variable
> > frequency
> > > control which rapidly looses torque at low rpm.
> > >
> > > Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder
> card
> > > that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble changing the
> > > encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of encoders that spin up
> to
> > > 10k rpm.
> > >
> > > Anyone have any suggestions?
> > >
> > > regards
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
> >
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] trying to connect a encoder from cnc spindle motor to schiender vfd

[andrew beck]

Chris.  I'm still learning electronics.  Could you expand a bit on this
please.

Maybe draw a napkin sketch of it.  Sorry to be a bit slow on the uptake

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, 5:46 AM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> A sin and cos are 90 degrees apart.  All you should need to do is threshold
> the signal and you have A/B quadrature.Many ways to threshold it but
> you want the one with least noise.
>
> A simple way to convert a sin wave to a square wave is to amplify then clip
> it with diodes.   A comparator can also convert the signal.
>
> The point to remember is that sin/cos is quadrature and all that is needed
> is some signal conditioning.
>
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:46 PM andrew beck 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi guys
> >
> > wondering if anyone has any ideas here.
> >
> > I have a heidanhain spindle motor that runs up to 1 rpm and has a 5v
> > sin cos encoder on it.  I am currently controlling the motor with a
> > schiender vfd.  I am talking to the support engineers here in New Zealand
> > about buying a encoder card so I can get better low down torque.  If I
> run
> > the card in full encoder closed loop control in the vfd I can get 200
> > percent of the torque right down to 0 rpm for 30 seconds or so which is
> > pretty useful.  I am currently just running the drive in Variable
> frequency
> > control which rapidly looses torque at low rpm.
> >
> > Anyway they have a bunch of cards I can use but don't have a encoder card
> > that is suitable for sin cos encoders.  I have no trouble changing the
> > encoder but am not sure if I can get a source of encoders that spin up to
> > 10k rpm.
> >
> > Anyone have any suggestions?
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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>

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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs WORKS - NOT

[Thomas D. Dean]

On 2020-02-13 18:32, Jon Elson wrote:

On 02/13/2020 04:53 PM, Thomas D. Dean wrote:

I shut down the system last night.

I can boot debian 7 (sda) and run linuxcnc from the distro. Everything 
comes up and seems normal.


But, on boot into debian 10 (sdb), it drops into the console login.  I 
can startx, but, the display is background only.  I can switch to 
another console, ctl-alt-F3, and start some xterms, then switch back 
to X, alt-F1, and the xterms are there.  I can do most things. I can 
NOT see dmesg as a normal user.

> dmesg
dmesg: read kernel buffer failed: Operation not permitted
Google says this is an "Improved" security feature of debian 10.  I have 
been using dmesg for some 40 years, and, now, it is a security risk...


Strange.

I'm taking a wild guess, but maybe the system did an automatic update 
that included a kernel update sometime in
the past, but this required a reboot to load the new kernel. LinuxCNC is 
compiled/linked against a specific kernel, and
so a kernel update will cause it to not run anymore.  So, you really 
want to turn off automatic updates, or at least make

sure that kernel updates require manual approval.

And, that WAS a wild guess.  The kernel booted was 4.14.148-rtai-amd64, 
I selected it from grub...


I can run debian 7 with the linuxcnc distro (sda) OK.  The MB is an 
Intel D2500HN with 4G Ram.  Seems like Debian 10 is not stable on this MB:


I started over with a clean install of debian 10 on sdb.  The install 
seemed to go OK, using all defaults and grub on sda.  Booted into the 
installed kernel, OK.  But, I had 'slinky' scrolling, mouse pointer 
movements were lagging and sometimes, typing a single char inserted 8 to 
10 of the same char.  Today, I was at the machine.  Yesterday, I did 
this via ssh and the display/input problems were not evident.


I pushed ahead, using gdebi, I installed
  linux-headers-4.14.148-rtai-amd64.deb
  linux-image-4.14.148-rtai-amd64.deb
Using gdebi, I installed (all from stretch)
  python-gtksourceview2_2.10.1-3_amd64.deb
  libvte-common_0.28.2-5_all.deb
  libvte9_0.28.2-5+b2_amd64.deb
  python-vte_0.28.2-5+b2_amd64.deb

Installing with gdebi (from stretch)
  libboost-python.1.62.0_1.62.0+dfsg-10+b1_amd64.deb
has unmet dependencies.
Using apt-get wants to remove a full screen (50+ lines?) of things. 
Most of gnome, etc.  I think this disables the desktop.


Tom Dean


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs WORKS - NOT

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 13 February 2020 21:32:30 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/13/2020 04:53 PM, Thomas D. Dean wrote:
> > I shut down the system last night.
> >
> > I can boot debian 7 (sda) and run linuxcnc from the
> > distro. Everything comes up and seems normal.
> >
> > But, on boot into debian 10 (sdb), it drops into the
> > console login.  I can startx, but, the display is
> > background only.  I can switch to another console,
> > ctl-alt-F3, and start some xterms, then switch back to X,
> > alt-F1, and the xterms are there.  I can do most things.
> > I can NOT see dmesg as a normal user.
> >
> > > dmesg
> >
> > dmesg: read kernel buffer failed: Operation not permitted
> >
> > Strange.
>
> I'm taking a wild guess, but maybe the system did an
> automatic update that included a kernel update sometime in
> the past, but this required a reboot to load the new kernel.
> LinuxCNC is compiled/linked against a specific kernel, and
> so a kernel update will cause it to not run anymore.  

I didn't find that in my last rpi4 kernel rebuild that was actually an 
improved latency-test, from about 50 u-secs down to 16 u-secs. lcnc 
built as uspace always on the rpi4. Thinking about new kernels, I 
probably should go back and do a make headers_install too.

> So, 
> you really want to turn off automatic updates, or at least make
> sure that kernel updates require manual approval.
>
> Jon
>
Exactly why I "pin" them. The offered replacements are never "realtime"
In fact that potential for such cross contamination alone should be 
considered an apt bug.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs WORKS - NOT

[Jon Elson]

On 02/13/2020 04:53 PM, Thomas D. Dean wrote:

I shut down the system last night.

I can boot debian 7 (sda) and run linuxcnc from the 
distro. Everything comes up and seems normal.


But, on boot into debian 10 (sdb), it drops into the 
console login.  I can startx, but, the display is 
background only.  I can switch to another console, 
ctl-alt-F3, and start some xterms, then switch back to X, 
alt-F1, and the xterms are there.  I can do most things.  
I can NOT see dmesg as a normal user.

> dmesg
dmesg: read kernel buffer failed: Operation not permitted

Strange.

I'm taking a wild guess, but maybe the system did an 
automatic update that included a kernel update sometime in
the past, but this required a reboot to load the new kernel. 
LinuxCNC is compiled/linked against a specific kernel, and
so a kernel update will cause it to not run anymore.  So, 
you really want to turn off automatic updates, or at least make

sure that kernel updates require manual approval.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs WORKS - NOT

[Thomas D. Dean]

I shut down the system last night.

I can boot debian 7 (sda) and run linuxcnc from the distro.  Everything 
comes up and seems normal.


But, on boot into debian 10 (sdb), it drops into the console login.  I 
can startx, but, the display is background only.  I can switch to 
another console, ctl-alt-F3, and start some xterms, then switch back to 
X, alt-F1, and the xterms are there.  I can do most things.  I can NOT 
see dmesg as a normal user.

> dmesg
dmesg: read kernel buffer failed: Operation not permitted

Strange.

The only difference I see is keyboard and mouse actions are 'jerky'. 
Delays in typing.  Move the physical mouse and the pointer stays still 
for 1/2 sec, or so, then follows.


Linuxcnc hangs, details at the bottom.  I get the initial logo, and the 
display to select a machine.  I select the sherline inch lathe.  The 
terminal shows some start information and hangs.


I plan to repeat the installation from a fresh Debian 10,
   debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
after running a disk check.

Then install
  linux-image-4.14.148-rtai-amd64.deb
  linux-headers-4.14.148-rtai-amd64.deb
Install from stretch, using gdebi.  Yesterday, I used apt-get.  Does 
this make a difference?

  python-gtksourceview2_2.10.1-3_amd64.deb
  libvte-common_0.28.2-5_all.deb
  libvte9_0.28.2-5+b2_amd64.deb
  python-vte_0.28.2-5+b2_amd64.deb
  python-vte/download
  libboost-python.1.62.0_1.62.0+dfsg-10+b1_amd64.deb
Then, use apt-get to install the last glob of things.
Then, build linuxcnc.

Any ideas of what I should do?

Tom Dean

== What happened today ===

After boot and startx,
linuxcnc-latency works.

> . ./RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/scripts/rip-environment
> linuxcnc -d -v
Debug mode on
+ getopts dvlhkr opt
+ case "$opt" in
+ tty -s
+ PRINT_FILE=/dev/fd/1
+ echo 'Verbose mode on'
Verbose mode on
+ getopts dvlhkr opt
+ shift 2
+ case "4.14.148-rtai-amd64" in
++ uname -r
+ '[' 4.14.148-rtai-amd64 '!=' 4.14.148-rtai-amd64 ']'
+ '[' -z ']'
+ tty -s
+ trap ErrorCheck EXIT
+ '[' '!' -z '' ']'
+ EXTRA_ARGS=
+ RUN_IN_PLACE=yes
+ echo RUN_IN_PLACE=yes
RUN_IN_PLACE=yes
+ LINUXCNCVERSION=2.9.0~pre0
+ export LINUXCNCVERSION
+ INIVAR=inivar
+ HALCMD='halcmd '
+ PICKCONFIG='/usr/bin/wish8.6 
/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/tcl/bin/pickconfig.tcl'

+ LINUXCNC_EMCSH=/usr/bin/wish8.6
+ echo LINUXCNC_DIR=
LINUXCNC_DIR=
+ echo LINUXCNC_BIN_DIR=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/bin
LINUXCNC_BIN_DIR=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/bin
+ echo LINUXCNC_TCL_DIR=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/tcl
LINUXCNC_TCL_DIR=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/tcl
+ echo LINUXCNC_SCRIPT_DIR=
LINUXCNC_SCRIPT_DIR=
+ echo LINUXCNC_RTLIB_DIR=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/rtlib
LINUXCNC_RTLIB_DIR=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/rtlib
+ echo LINUXCNC_CONFIG_DIR=
LINUXCNC_CONFIG_DIR=
+ echo LINUXCNC_LANG_DIR=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/src/objects
LINUXCNC_LANG_DIR=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/src/objects
+ echo INIVAR=inivar
INIVAR=inivar
+ echo HALCMD=halcmd
HALCMD=halcmd
+ echo LINUXCNC_EMCSH=/usr/bin/wish8.6
LINUXCNC_EMCSH=/usr/bin/wish8.6
+ export LINUXCNC_TCL_DIR
+ export LINUXCNC_EMCSH
+ export LINUXCNC_HELP_DIR
+ export LINUXCNC_LANG_DIR
+ export REALTIME
+ export HALCMD
+ export LINUXCNC_NCFILES_DIR
+ '[' -z ']'
+ echo 'LINUXCNC - 2.9.0~pre0'
LINUXCNC - 2.9.0~pre0
+ '[' '!' -z '' ']'
+ '[' '!' -n '' ']'
++ /usr/bin/wish8.6 /home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/tcl/bin/pickconfig.tcl
( here, the welcome and config selection appears )
I select by)machine->sherline->SherlineLathe->SherlineLathe_inch
and click OK
+ INIFILE=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/axis.ini
+ '[' /home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/axis.ini.demo = 
/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/axis.ini ']'

+ '[' '!' -n /home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/axis.ini ']'
++ handle_includes /home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/axis.ini
++ hdr='# handle_includes():'
++ inifile=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/axis.ini
+++ dirname /home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/axis.ini
++ cd /home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis
++ /usr/bin/grep '^#INCLUDE' 
/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/axis.ini

++ status=1
++ '[' 1 -ne 0 ']'
++ echo /home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/axis.ini
++ return 0
+ INIFILE=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/axis.ini
+ INI_NAME=axis.ini
+ INI_DIR=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis
+ CONFIG_DIR=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis
+ export CONFIG_DIR
+ export 
PATH=/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/configs/sim/axis/bin:/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/scripts:/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/bin:/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/bin:/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/scripts:/home/tomdean/RTAI/linuxcnc-dev/tcl:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/games:/usr/games
+ 

Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture --> mesa motion controller

[N]

> If " 'nix" were suddenly removed from the world the internet and a whole 
> bunch of other thing would disappear.
> 
> Just to rock the boat: mesa (PCW) has a very nice motion controller for 
> an FPGA. 50 us cycle time, etc. "ALL" someone has to do is wrap  interp 
> and all the other non-motion stuff around it. Of course it is single 
> source, etc.

It is possible to run the motion controller on mesa FPGA?


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

[N]

> > You care where the loop are because if they are in your PC you need a
> > special PC with a special OS.
> 
> Special PC? Pretty much any PC will work. I guess you could call the OS 
> special but not nearly as special as an RTOS on an external processor. 
> If you are really that terrified of Linux, run LCNC headless and write a 
> Windows or web app to talk to it. The LCNC PC then becomes your external 
> CPU box.

Guess a raspberry will work fine, also small enough to put on a din rail or 
similar. It must be a device cheap and readily available, I know some of 
devices similar as this used on raspberry have time triggered send of Ethernet 
messages which is nice but more than needed for a few axis but are not certain 
about this used in Raspberry.

Used PLC with similar or same chip and it does not have any kind of local user 
interface instead I use Ethernet and ordinary to computer to communicate with 
it. Could follow what happen in real time and receive data sent periodically 
over Ethernet but could not be really certain which messages get priority if 
there is more traffic. Often use Youtube, it is more bandwidth but slower 
update rate and certain there is a receive buffer, most of the time but not 
always perfect then used for other things, it will however not make 
dents/scratchs in the monitor so is not very important.


Regards Nicklas Karlsson


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 13 February 2020 12:51:26 Chris Albertson wrote:

> When designing something new one must be VERY careful not to be one of
> Henry Ford's customers.In an interview, someone asked Henry Ford
> (Who was famous for saying "You can have the Model T in any color you
> like, so long as you like black.")Mr. Ford said that if he had
> listened to his customers that would have told him all they wanted was
> a faster horse.

Don't forget Younger women and More money ;-)
[...]
> Back to CNC.   Step back and people just want to make parts, not
> fiddle with 100 details of how the CNC machine works.  That is setting
> the bar really high.

But in a one man shop in a pond full of frogs, I have to either know all 
that, or pester you kind folks for pointers from the real experts.  And 
I appreciate the brain pool this list is, a lot.

> I've done this for other projects at work.   The first step is to fly
> out to where your users live and watch them work.  See what they do
> and how they spend their time.  The low-hanging fruit are tasks that
> take a lot of time but not much brainpower.   User productivity goes
> up when you automate those tasks.

This is one of the things I have done several times as a tv engineer, 
look the operation over and see where the big time sink is, and fix it, 
often with a very low powered computer because it still works faster 
than a human. But it can replace that human and his reaction times by 
something many times more consistent with any human that can push a few 
labeled buttons.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Question for Peter C.W.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 13 February 2020 12:00:41 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/12/2020 09:42 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > quadrature is way off, but what concerns me in that these ATS-667's
> > are running on 5 volts, normally switch rail to rail.  But at the
> > hm2-encoder-0 a b or Index, I am seeing a decent square wave, but
> > its only 1 volt p-p.  For all three ATS-667's.
>
> HUH?  On digital signals, Halscope displays 1 and 0, these
> are not analog values, just
> logic, on and off.  How do you suppose the Mesa digital
> input logic gives you an analog
> reading?
>
It can so do analog, like the waveforms around a PID.  So how does it 
determine which is which?

And after reglueing one of the ATS-667's its dead. I had spares in a bag 
on top of the g0704 furniture but can't find them this morning. Going 
back out to get up on a ladder and take a better look, got Dee some 
lunch and the Orkin guy was here checking baits for additional 
distraction.

I need someone to cross check my math for quadrature spacings, the OD of 
the bull gear is exactly 6" and it has 60 teeth. But then it gets into 
trig because of the curvature and I don't get the correct answers. 

??

Looking at the duty cycles of the output, it appears the bent spindle 
error is causing a couple thou of runout of the bull gear. Figuratively 
speaking I paid 2G's for a $200 lathe. A heavy chuck was mounted when it 
fell over, smashed the compound and striped threads out of the crossfeed 
nut. Way before it followed me home where I found 80 thou of backlash in 
the crossfeed because some one in the distant past had repaired it with 
a helicoil kit.  The crossfeed screw was in good shape but a good hammer 
would have sheared what was left of the helicoil, it was a very good 
knife. All rebuilt with a smallish ball screw anchored by putting 100% 
bearings in the front crank axle. X backlash is around a thou now.

Thanks Jon.
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs WORKS

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 13 February 2020 09:57:08 andy pugh wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 at 05:10, Thomas D. Dean 
> wrote:
>
> python-gtksourceview2_2.10.1-3_amd64.deb from
>
> > packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/python-gtksourceview2/download
> > actual from
> > packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/python-gtksourceview2/download
> > libvte-common_0.28.2-5_all.deb
> >  >loadlibvte-common_0.28.2-5_all.deb> from
> > packages.debian.org/stretch/all/libvte-common/download
> > libvte9_0.28.2-5+b2_amd64.debfrom
> > packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/libvte9/download
> > python-vte_0.28.2-5+b2_amd64.deb from
> > packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/python-vte/download
> > install libboost-python.1.62.0_1.62.0+dfsg-10+b1_amd64.deb from
> > packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/libboost-python1.62.0/download
>
> I think that (other than _changing_ these dependencies) the solution
> is to supply these packages via the LinuxCNC repository.
> (We already do this for a few non-linuxcnc packages, for example there
> are some gtk2 packages here:
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/dists/wheezy/base/binary-amd64/ )

But that doesn't do me any good unless its src so I can build it on the 
rpi4's. I am already building for rpi4's, but without a working 
gmoccapi(sp?) and without a printout function for any ladder logic the 
user might want to use.  And now we're (raspbian) is up to 10.3 and 
something else I didn't note has gone missing but linuxcnc installed and 
continues to run well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

[Chris Albertson]

Yes, you do need a special PC.   This means a PC you use for Linux CNC and
not the one already on your desk. Again think of the normal ink-jet
printer.   Do you connect it to a special "printer PC" that is only used to
drive inkjet printers?  No.  In most cases, the inkjet (or laser)
printer is just on WiFi and can print from any iPhone of PC that is also on
the same WiFi.

When designing something new one must be VERY careful not to be one of
Henry Ford's customers.In an interview, someone asked Henry Ford (Who
was famous for saying "You can have the Model T in any color you like, so
long as you like black.")Mr. Ford said that if he had listened to
his customers that would have told him all they wanted was a faster horse.

This is a common thing.  Users typically get used to what they have and ask
for only tiny, incremental changes.   But the really good products are
disruptive.  Look at what Apple did to the cell phone market, now everyone
uses an iPhone or iPhone copy. Same with the Mac.  now everyone uses a
mouse and a windowed graphical interface.  Neither of these ideas was
something a customer asked for.

I think a CNC machine that works like a $180 3D printer would be
disruptive.  It would dramatically lower the skill level required to get
into CNC.   Basically you have to get rid of all the parts that cause
problems.Look at forum posts to see what those are.

That said, disruptive change is really hard to do as it takes a change of
mind-set.  You have to kick the problem around for a long time before you
see a completely different solution.But the big thing to NOT do is to
be one of Ford's customers who is asking only for a faster horse.  It is
all to easy to fall into that trap.

What am I working on now?  Not this.  I'm frustraited in the current
fitness tracker ecosystem.  Why can't I comine data from my Fitbit heart
rate monitor withthe cadance sensor on my bike and my WiFi enebled bathroom
scale and get it all plotted on the same system?   Te fitness tracker
market is too fragmented.There needs to be an easy solution.THis
seems off-topic for a CNC forum, but not. The way to re-think fitness
tracking is to think what people REALLY need and forget abot incremetal
improments to existing products.  Step way back ad look. I think peope
like me and a few million others just want to zip-tie a tiny sensor device
to the crank arm of a bike or ther running shoe or their wrist and then
have some kind of "AI coach" consult with then about what needs to be done
to reach their goal.  People would live to be able to mix brands of sensors
and never have to fiddle with phone apps and web sits and bluetooth paring
and the 100 other details.

Back to CNC.   Step back and people just want to make parts, not fiddle
with 100 details of how the CNC machine works.  That is setting the bar
really high.

I've done this for other projects at work.   The first step is to fly out
to where your users live and watch them work.  See what they do and how
they spend their time.  The low-hanging fruit are tasks that take a lot of
time but not much brainpower.   User productivity goes up when you automate
those tasks.



On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 3:47 AM Les Newell 
wrote:

>
> > You care where the loop are because if they are in your PC you need a
> > special PC with a special OS.
>
> Special PC? Pretty much any PC will work. I guess you could call the OS
> special but not nearly as special as an RTOS on an external processor.
> If you are really that terrified of Linux, run LCNC headless and write a
> Windows or web app to talk to it. The LCNC PC then becomes your external
> CPU box.
>
> > But look at how most 3D printers work.
> > They are just like 4 axis milling machines, typically using 4 stepper
> > motors and no one needs a special PC or OS to make prints.   In all cases
> > the designers have pushed all the real-time function out to a $2 chip.
>
> That $2 chip is absolutely packed to the gills and it does one job -
> running a basic 3D printer. It's so full that if you want to add any
> features you have to take others out to make room. The whole ethos of
> LinuxCNC is to be versatile. Want to run an automatic tool changer? No
> problem. Does your machine have an electronically controlled 3 speed
> gearbox? Again it's easy enough to add functionality to do that. Servos?
> stepper? Any mix of the two? Again no problem. I've used quite a few
> different hobby grade controllers and for versatility LCNC blows them
> all out of the water.
>
> If you just want to run a basic desktop router on the cheap get an
> Arduino and chuck GRBL on it. You now have an external board running a
> motion controller with the PC just feeding it g-code. It's as close to
> your 'printer' concept as you're going to get. You can even run it
> completely standalone off a SD card. Of course there is no way GRBL can
> handle a bigger more complex machine.
>
> Admittedly these days you can get slightly 

Re: [Emc-users] Question for Peter C.W.

[Jon Elson]

On 02/12/2020 09:42 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:


quadrature is way off, but what concerns me in that these ATS-667's are
running on 5 volts, normally switch rail to rail.  But at the
hm2-encoder-0 a b or Index, I am seeing a decent square wave, but its
only 1 volt p-p.  For all three ATS-667's.


HUH?  On digital signals, Halscope displays 1 and 0, these 
are not analog values, just
logic, on and off.  How do you suppose the Mesa digital 
input logic gives you an analog

reading?

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc 2.9.0 hangs WORKS

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 at 05:10, Thomas D. Dean  wrote:

python-gtksourceview2_2.10.1-3_amd64.deb from
> packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/python-gtksourceview2/download
> actual from
> packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/python-gtksourceview2/download
> libvte-common_0.28.2-5_all.deb
> 
>  from
> packages.debian.org/stretch/all/libvte-common/download
> libvte9_0.28.2-5+b2_amd64.debfrom
> packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/libvte9/download
> python-vte_0.28.2-5+b2_amd64.deb from
> packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/python-vte/download
> install libboost-python.1.62.0_1.62.0+dfsg-10+b1_amd64.deb from
> packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/libboost-python1.62.0/download


I think that (other than _changing_ these dependencies) the solution is to
supply these packages via the LinuxCNC repository.
(We already do this for a few non-linuxcnc packages, for example there are
some gtk2 packages here:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/dists/wheezy/base/binary-amd64/ )

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 at 03:48, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

I do have a ton of technical info, software etc for the Animatics
> controller. Got it from a guy at Moog-Animatics who stayed after their
> merger and still had an old backup drive. With that I'd think it should be
> fairly simple to add support to LCNC to at least have the same
> functionality as the DOS software.


This could be done, but I just don't think LinuxCNC (designed to be a CNC
controller) is a sensible starting point.

Have you looked at https://winder.github.io/ugs_website/ ?

My opinion (and only my opinion, I do not speak for LinuxCNC in any
capacity) is that if you want a CNC controller that runs in a PC then
LinuxCNC is the best choice. And if you want a CNC controller that runs in
a microprocessor, look at GRBL, Tiny-G, Marlin, Sailfish etc. And if you
want a CNC controller that runs in an FPGA then there is the Mesa SoftDMC
firmware. http://www.mesanet.com/pdf/motion/softdmc.pdf

LinuxCNC is a CNC controller that runs on a Linux PC. If that isn't what
you want, then there are other options that already are what you want.

Cutting a Maserati in half would make a very bad motorcycle. Cutting
LinuxCNC in half would make a poor G-code sender.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Question for Peter C.W.

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 13 February 2020 04:58:50 andy pugh wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 at 03:44, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
>
> hm2-encoder-0 a b or Index, I am seeing a decent square wave, but its
>
> > only 1 volt p-p.  For all three ATS-667's.
>
> halscope shows logic 0 and logic 1. It has no way to display voltage.

I can't argue as thats impossible to check on another machine without 
going out and manually turning on spindle power on one of the others as 
both the g0704 and the 7x12, that is a manual function. That lathe is 
the only machine with motor power (and an encoder) slaved to 
motion-enable. I've made more i/o available on the others but haven't 
yet bought the SSR's to do that. I've found that rather handy on the 
sheldon as all power is off leaving only the rpi4 running when lcnc 
isn't running. The rest I'm not really comfortable leaving motor power 
on when the lights are out unless its actually doing a job. But thats 
not how they are wired, Correcting that on the other 2 encoder equipt 
machines will need major rewiring as the breakout logic and the motors a 
common supply.  It is on the todo list, but its a ways down the list.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Question for Peter C.W.

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 at 03:44, Gene Heskett  wrote:

hm2-encoder-0 a b or Index, I am seeing a decent square wave, but its
> only 1 volt p-p.  For all three ATS-667's.


halscope shows logic 0 and logic 1. It has no way to display voltage.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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