Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[dave engvall]

Indeed! Poly-Vee belts are acceptably quiet but of course then you need 
to rig an encoder.
Probably a decent trade  off.  Available, not too expensive, transfer 
power well and seem to last.

Years ago I made both of my pulleys.

Dave

On 7/4/22 10:05 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 17:04, John Figie  wrote:


https://www.roll-ring.com/?lang=en


Andy, That is a nice idea. However in my case I don't think I would
have clearance.

It could go at the bottom, nearer the drive motor.

The belt on my Holbrook is a rather wide poly-vee. Very quiet. I have
a much smaller, small pitch toothed belt to drive the encoder.





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Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[Chris Albertson]

You need t take several steps

1) verify the belt and pulleys have the same tooth profile.  They need to
match exactly.
2) if the profile is "square teeth" then yes, these are noisy.  Decide if
you want to spend the $$ to change the profile because no amount of
adjustment will make a square tooth silent.  The high-pitched sound is
cause by the air in the pulley groove being forced out. The round teeth
take longer to "gradually" fill the grove and reduce air velocity
3) always use the smallest belth width that will take the load,
over-sizing creates more noise
4) always use the largest diameter pulleys you can fit in the space, this
reduces force on the belt and might allow a smaller belt.
5) Using whatever bet you have now, Set the tension
6) enclose the belt with a tight fitting sound-proof door

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 9:20 AM Scott Harwell via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

>  If it quiets down with pressure applied to the back of the belt,
> something like this might do the trick.
> NewYall Serpentine Accessory - Tensor de correa
>
> |
> |
> |
> |  |  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
> |
> |  |
> NewYall Serpentine Accessory - Tensor de correa
>
> Tensor de correa de transmisión de accesorios serpentina
>  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
>
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> On Monday, July 4, 2022, 9:54:49 AM CDT, andy pugh 
> wrote:
>
>  On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 15:02, gene heskett  wrote:
>
> > > https://www.roll-ring.com/?lang=en
> > >
> > That's a decent idea, but I would not use it anyplace where the
> additional
> > backlash would be detrimental.
>
> It doesn't add any backlash, but nor does it reduce it at all.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
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>
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[BRIAN GLACKIN]

Regarding belt tension. Goal is to get engagement with the minimum amount
of tension.  This ensures the bearings on motor and driven pulley shafts
are not overloaded.

I work with very large bearing and or bushed machines.  (Crushing
equipment). Standard rule of thumb is 1/64” of deflection per inch of
distance between the shaft centers at 22lbf

We usually avoid tensions greater than 30lbf.

With the smaller bearing diameter I suspect target force is lower.

Brian

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 1:08 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 17:04, John Figie  wrote:
>
> > > https://www.roll-ring.com/?lang=en
> > >
> > Andy, That is a nice idea. However in my case I don't think I would
> > have clearance.
>
> It could go at the bottom, nearer the drive motor.
>
> The belt on my Holbrook is a rather wide poly-vee. Very quiet. I have
> a much smaller, small pitch toothed belt to drive the encoder.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 17:04, John Figie  wrote:

> > https://www.roll-ring.com/?lang=en
> >
> Andy, That is a nice idea. However in my case I don't think I would
> have clearance.

It could go at the bottom, nearer the drive motor.

The belt on my Holbrook is a rather wide poly-vee. Very quiet. I have
a much smaller, small pitch toothed belt to drive the encoder.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[gene heskett]

On 7/4/22 12:03, John Figie wrote:

John Figie

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 9:02 AM gene heskett  wrote:


Having watched and listened to the movie, I'm of the opinion the tooth
profile of the belt doesn't match the pulleys. Whether that's from wear, or
tooth profile miss-match yet to be determined.

I think the belt is pretty new. It is not the original. But It seems
like the tooth profile matches with the pulley.


I have one of Dewalt's earliest electric wood planes, must be 40+ years
old,
works nice to fit the ends of a split rail fence rail, but it has a
trapezoidal
tooth and drive belt, and you can hear it howl a mile away.

OK this is what I wanted to confirm. These belts can be pretty noisy.
This is consistent with other feedback comments.
I am OK with the noise for now. I need to get the rest of the machine
working before spending money on a quieter belt.
I just wanted to be sure the noise is expected. Some of these
components can be pricey, maybe depending on where I
get them from.

I think there is no reason why this needs to be a timing belt. The
spindle encoder is driven from a counter shaft from the
3 speed gearbox - yes it always spins at the spindle speed not the
drive pulley so backlash and timing is not an issue.

In that event, when the time comes to "put a muffler" on it,
there is no reason not to switch to a serpentine belt, they
are very quiet. And decent condition pulleys might be no
farther away than the automotive junk yard. You might have
to make hubs but by then you'll have a machine to make
them with. Don't forget to get the matching tensioning idler,
assuring non measurable slippage. And saves you the time
and materials to invent it.  No use re-inventing that wheel. :)

Take care and stay well John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Cute lathe running css and fpr...

[Sam Sokolik]

BTW - that is a little 440w spindle motor...

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 9:29 AM Sam Sokolik  wrote:

> Making a few chuck adaptors for some random chucks we have..  (this one is
> on the big size but will come in handy...)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlEGmAbvuZs
>
> https://electronicsam.com/images/emco/PXL_20220702_233820082.jpg
>
> https://electronicsam.com/images/emco/PXL_20220703_224600927.jpg
>
> https://electronicsam.com/images/emco/PXL_20220703_224901039.jpg
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[John Dammeyer]

That's pretty cool!
John

> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: July-04-22 2:06 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.
> 
> On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 05:55, Roland Jollivet  
> wrote:
> >
> > If the noise is from the belt whipping, then lightly press a rod, or two,
> > on the back of the belt to see the effect on the noise
> 
> If you have a 3D printer, you could try making a floating tensioner:
> 
> https://www.roll-ring.com/?lang=en
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[Scott Harwell via Emc-users]

 If it quiets down with pressure applied to the back of the belt, something 
like this might do the trick.
NewYall Serpentine Accessory - Tensor de correa

| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
NewYall Serpentine Accessory - Tensor de correa

Tensor de correa de transmisión de accesorios serpentina
 |

 |

 |


Scott



On Monday, July 4, 2022, 9:54:49 AM CDT, andy pugh  
wrote:  
 
 On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 15:02, gene heskett  wrote:

> > https://www.roll-ring.com/?lang=en
> >
> That's a decent idea, but I would not use it anyplace where the additional
> backlash would be detrimental.

It doesn't add any backlash, but nor does it reduce it at all.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] R2E3 retrofit

[Jon Elson]

I have managed to get two AMC 30A20 servo amps on eBay, one 
relatively cheap, the other somewhat expensive.  Now, I need 
a 3rd.  These are 30A peak 15 A continuous, up to 180 V DC 
input.


These match the current specs of the NC400's that came with 
the machine.  But, for the Z axis, maybe less current would 
be fine. I'm guessing that 30 A into those motors with a 2:1 
belt reduction would likely give 1000 Lbs of linear force on 
the table.  It seems that would be enough to damage the 
spindle bearings.  I have no way to know what the current 
limit on the existing Z amp was set to, but I am assuming it 
was set quite a bit less.  So, I'm looking at an AMC 16A20 
amp for the Z (16 A peak 8A continuous).


One data point, on my old 1J head machine, the power 
downfeed was set to kick out at 200 Lbs.  I have no idea 
what the limits of the BOSS 8 machine are, but I would guess 
they sure don't want more than about 500 Lbs linear force on 
the spindle bearings.  Am I on the right track?


Thanks,

Jon




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Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[John Figie]

John Figie

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 9:02 AM gene heskett  wrote:
>
>
> Having watched and listened to the movie, I'm of the opinion the tooth
> profile of the belt doesn't match the pulleys. Whether that's from wear, or
> tooth profile miss-match yet to be determined.

I think the belt is pretty new. It is not the original. But It seems
like the tooth profile matches with the pulley.

>
> I have one of Dewalt's earliest electric wood planes, must be 40+ years
> old,
> works nice to fit the ends of a split rail fence rail, but it has a
> trapezoidal
> tooth and drive belt, and you can hear it howl a mile away.

OK this is what I wanted to confirm. These belts can be pretty noisy.
This is consistent with other feedback comments.
I am OK with the noise for now. I need to get the rest of the machine
working before spending money on a quieter belt.
I just wanted to be sure the noise is expected. Some of these
components can be pricey, maybe depending on where I
get them from.

I think there is no reason why this needs to be a timing belt. The
spindle encoder is driven from a counter shaft from the
3 speed gearbox - yes it always spins at the spindle speed not the
drive pulley so backlash and timing is not an issue.
>
On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 4:10 AM andy pugh  wrote:
>
> On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 05:55, Roland Jollivet  
> wrote:
> >
> > If the noise is from the belt whipping, then lightly press a rod, or two,
> > on the back of the belt to see the effect on the noise
>
> If you have a 3D printer, you could try making a floating tensioner:
>
> https://www.roll-ring.com/?lang=en
>
Andy, That is a nice idea. However in my case I don't think I would
have clearance. The belt comes already perhaps too close to the servo
motor. Maybe I would need some kind of rocking tensioner with a wheel
on the outside of the belt that would switch sides according to the
direction of rotation. But I am not sure how it would switch from one
side to the other.


Maybe in the future I could use some kind of multi groove serpentine
belt or belts that have idelers to route around the encoder and servo
motor. But for now, if it works I will just get the rest working.


Thanks everyone for your input. I appreciate all of the insight.

Regards,

John Figie


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Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 15:02, gene heskett  wrote:

> > https://www.roll-ring.com/?lang=en
> >
> That's a decent idea, but I would not use it anyplace where the additional
> backlash would be detrimental.

It doesn't add any backlash, but nor does it reduce it at all.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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[Emc-users] Cute lathe running css and fpr...

[Sam Sokolik]

Making a few chuck adaptors for some random chucks we have..  (this one is
on the big size but will come in handy...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlEGmAbvuZs

https://electronicsam.com/images/emco/PXL_20220702_233820082.jpg

https://electronicsam.com/images/emco/PXL_20220703_224600927.jpg

https://electronicsam.com/images/emco/PXL_20220703_224901039.jpg

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Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[gene heskett]

On 7/4/22 05:10, andy pugh wrote:

On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 05:55, Roland Jollivet  wrote:

If the noise is from the belt whipping, then lightly press a rod, or two,
on the back of the belt to see the effect on the noise

If you have a 3D printer, you could try making a floating tensioner:

https://www.roll-ring.com/?lang=en


That's a decent idea, but I would not use it anyplace where the additional
backlash would be detrimental. The whole tension ring would have to be made
of something like PETG in order to get any life out of it, and it will add
to the backlash by being pushed off center by the force on the tighter side
which will change with the rotation direction.

Having watched and listened to the movie, I'm of the opinion the tooth
profile of the belt doesn't match the pulleys. Whether that's from wear, or
tooth profile miss-match yet to be determined.

I have one of Dewalt's earliest electric wood planes, must be 40+ years 
old,
works nice to fit the ends of a split rail fence rail, but it has a 
trapezoidal

tooth and drive belt, and you can hear it howl a mile away.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Clausing NC Spindle drive belt tension and noise.

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 05:55, Roland Jollivet  wrote:
>
> If the noise is from the belt whipping, then lightly press a rod, or two,
> on the back of the belt to see the effect on the noise

If you have a 3D printer, you could try making a floating tensioner:

https://www.roll-ring.com/?lang=en

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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