date:20240415

Re: [Emc-users] Big Tree Tech Re: Mesa Card Stepgens?

2024-04-15 Thread gene heskett

On 4/15/24 22:31, gene heskett wrote:

On 4/15/24 21:16, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:
I have a Hictop printer with some issues so I'm gathering parts to
update it. Among them is a Big Tree Tech SKR 1.4 board (not the Turbo,
which is identical except runs the CPU 10Mhz faster).

Do you have any experience with that one? There are a ton of display
boards for BTT controllers but what I haven't been able to find is a
list of what's compatible with which.

This is an iffy question to ask me as I do not use displays. I use

spelling correction.
klipper, moonraker and fluidd running on a bananapi-m5, which has a hdmi
output so the operating monitor can be anything up to a 27" curved HP to
a 13" intended for dual monitor use on the better laptops. I am using
one of the 13" on the ender5. That might need a magnifying glass to read
if as fluidd screen tells you everything. in tiny print.

https://forum.makerforums.info/t/ariel-yahni-here-is-a-better-picture-of-the-stepstick-breakout-board/7272

That would enable driving big motors with high power external drivers.

On Monday, April 15, 2024 at 03:55:49 PM MDT, gene heskett
wrote:

I'm running into the same problem in 3d printers, Peter. I am currently
rebuilding an Ender5+ using the new stepper/servo drives from hanpose,
that are rated for up to 90 volts for the nema 17 motors used on most
printers. Most of the big tree tech controller boards use 1.5 micro-sec
step pulses, but I am finding I need to stretch that to 2 micro-secs if
I don't want an occasional miss, this while driving the lc42 driver.
These drivers all have opto inputs, and need a little longer step on the
less than 5 volt signals.

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Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis

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Re: [Emc-users] Big Tree Tech Re: Mesa Card Stepgens?

2024-04-15 Thread gene heskett

On 4/15/24 21:16, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:

I have a Hictop printer with some issues so I'm gathering parts to update it.
Among them is a Big Tree Tech SKR 1.4 board (not the Turbo, which is identical
except runs the CPU 10Mhz faster).

Do you have any experience with that one? There are a ton of display boards for
BTT controllers but what I haven't been able to find is a list of what's
compatible with which.

This is an iffy question to ask me as I do not use displays. I use
klipper, moonraker and fluidd running on a banamapu-m5, which has a hdmi
output so the operating monitor can be anything up to a 27" curved HP to
a 13" intended for dual monitor use on the better laptops. I am using
one of the 13" on the ender5. That might need a magnifying glass to read
if as fluidd screen tells you everything. in tiny print.

Stepper drivers shouldn't be a issue since it looks like it takes normal
StepStick / Pololu modules. I see someone did get around to making the bleedin
obvious accessory, the StepStick breakout to screw terminals.
https://forum.makerforums.info/t/ariel-yahni-here-is-a-better-picture-of-the-stepstick-breakout-board/7272

That would enable driving big motors with high power external drivers.

On Monday, April 15, 2024 at 03:55:49 PM MDT, gene heskett
wrote:

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Re: [Emc-users] Big Tree Tech Re: Mesa Card Stepgens?

2024-04-15 Thread gene heskett

On 4/15/24 21:16, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:

I have a Hictop printer with some issues so I'm gathering parts to update it.
Among them is a Big Tree Tech SKR 1.4 board (not the Turbo, which is identical
except runs the CPU 10Mhz faster).

Are you talking to me?

Do you have any experience with that one? There are a ton of display boards for
BTT controllers but what I haven't been able to find is a list of what's
compatible with which.

The breakout board I'm using plugs into a stepstick socket, gives 2 6
pin sockets I plug a 6 pin pigtail into then fire up the system and use
my scope to identify which 4 wires I need to drive a separate
stepper/servo driver, like the hanpose LC42 or LC57 for bigger nema 23
versions. The LC42 is rated for use with supplies up to 90 volts, the
LC57 to at least 100. These motors do not ever have a loss of home=a
layer shift.

I have 5 of them in service ATM on cnc machinery in the garage. If they
lose home, they have an output that can stop lcnc in about a millisecond
as they will use every amp the supply can make to prevent that, if the
error is not reduced they shut the motor off to save both the motor,
themselves and the supply. Tested to that level of failure on my Sheldon
11x54 lathe by running a tool into a stopped chuck jaw. Shuts down
instantly without damaging the carbide chip in the tool, or marking the
chuck jaw. And has yet to fail doing a job in 2 years!

Because they only drive the motor currant at a level that gets the job
done, they draw far less power in normal operation, only heating the
motor if pushing it really hard, a power savings you can see in your
monthly power bill. Applying this new tech to a 3d printer s/b
interesting. Out in the garage, a PID stage in lcnc is not used, the PID
is in the controller/driver, and they do exactly what the trajectory
planner tells then to do, potentially at 10x or more the speeds what
that printer ran well at when new with only 24 volts to move the motors.

Whats not to love?

That would enable driving big motors with high power external drivers.

That is the point of my Ender5plus rebuild. I think I am about done with
the wiring. I powered it today for the first time in about a year as I
decided to put its new BTT Octopus Pro V1.1 controller in the top of a
side for access w/o having to rig a hoist and skyhook to turn it over
for access to the bottom. Quite a few mechanical mods have been made to
it also. It lost much of a pound of X axis weight with carbon fiber and
linear bearings. Y axis drive with that puny motor in the middle of an
8mm shaft is now 1" carbon fiber tube belt driven from a nema23
stepper/servo. Z screws now driven by one mslightly bigger motor, bed
tilt adjustable.

More as I configure it and bring in to life.

On Monday, April 15, 2024 at 03:55:49 PM MDT, gene heskett
wrote:

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[Emc-users] Big Tree Tech Re: Mesa Card Stepgens?

2024-04-15 Thread Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users

I have a Hictop printer with some issues so I'm gathering parts to update it. 
Among them is a Big Tree Tech SKR 1.4 board (not the Turbo, which is identical 
except runs the CPU 10Mhz faster).

Do you have any experience with that one? There are a ton of display boards for 
BTT controllers but what I haven't been able to find is a list of what's 
compatible with which.

Stepper drivers shouldn't be a issue since it looks like it takes normal 
StepStick / Pololu modules. I see someone did get around to making the bleedin 
obvious accessory, the StepStick breakout to screw terminals.
https://forum.makerforums.info/t/ariel-yahni-here-is-a-better-picture-of-the-stepstick-breakout-board/7272

That would enable driving big motors with high power external drivers.

On Monday, April 15, 2024 at 03:55:49 PM MDT, gene heskett 
 wrote: 

I'm running into the same problem in 3d printers, Peter. I am currently 
rebuilding an Ender5+ using the new stepper/servo drives from hanpose, 
that are rated for up to 90 volts for the nema 17 motors used on most 
printers. Most of the big tree tech controller boards use 1.5 micro-sec 
step pulses, but I am finding I need to stretch that to 2 micro-secs if 
I don't want an occasional miss, this while driving the lc42 driver. 
These drivers all have opto inputs, and need a little longer step on the 
less than 5 volt signals.


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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

2024-04-15 Thread gene heskett

On 4/15/24 17:09, Peter Wallace wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 20:22:03 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
To: Peter Wallace ,
    Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
Subject: RE: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

Thanks Peter,

We've had this 7i85s for quite a while, and it must be one of the 
early ones because I see DS34C87TM chips on it.

I'm not sure I like the idea of using them single ended.  But is a 
+5v-0v single ended signal actually any better or even much different 
than a +/-3v differential signal?  How hard would it be to move the 
last steepen over to the 7i88 and have all 8 of these stepgens on one 
card?  I am not planning on using the Smart Serial output on the 
7i88.  The 3 servos have been working on the 7i85S for years and can 
stay there.

Differential is needed and advised for servo drives with line receiver 
inputs,
however, with optocoupled input step/dir drives, there is little 
advantage to differential mode. With optocoupled input step/dir drives 
the input will only see ~3V drive in differential mode with the DS34C87 
driver, so its better to run in single ended mode with the 7I85S sinking 
so you get full 5V drive.

I am using the Smart Serial connection on the 7i85s to connect a 7i84.

If all else fails I can simply set all of the other steppers the same 
as the slow one and leave it be.  Even the slow one is working as fast 
or faster than I was hoping it would, but a little more safety margin 
would be nice.

The drives are likely not rated for 3V input so you would probably be 
better off if you ran single ended.

I'm running into the same problem in 3d printers, Peter. I am currently 
rebuilding an Ender5+ using the new stepper/servo drives from hanpose, 
that are rated for up to 90 volts for the nema 17 motors used on most 
printers. Most of the big tree tech controller boards use 1.5 micro-sec 
step pulses, but I am finding I need to stretch that to 2 micro-secs if 
I don't want an occasional miss, this while driving the lc42 driver. 
These drivers all have opto inputs, and need a little longer step on the 
less than 5 volt signals.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace 
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2024 3:41 PM
To: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
Cc: Todd Zuercher 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 19:27:19 +
From: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

Cc: Todd Zuercher 
Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

I was working on this machine where I need a whole bunch of extra 
stepgens.  I am using a Mesa 7i85S and a 7i88 connected to a 5i25 
card.  I was testing some of the stepper drives and I noticed that 
with one of the drive/motor combinations I am needing to use slightly 
longer step timing and lower max velocity.  I thought that this was 
odd, because all of the drives, motors, and mechanicals are the same 
for all of the ones I was testing.  The only difference is that the 
slower one was connected to a stepgen on the 7i85S and all of the 
others are on the 7i88.  So just for curiosity sake I checked the 
voltage at the input terminals of step/dir signals of the drive.  On 
the terminals connected to the 7i88 I found +/-5v, and on the one 
connected to the 7i85S there is only +/-3v.  This is the only 
difference I've been able to find between the different joints in 
question.

Does it make sense that the voltages would be different on the 
step/dir outputs between the 7i85s and the 7i88?  Does it make sense 
that the difference would cause a difference in the required step 
timing?  Why might there be a difference between the output voltage 
on the two cards?

Both cards are getting their 5v from the 5i25.  The 7i85S is also 
connected to 3 step/gen servo drives and their encoder's feedbacks.  
Is it possible that the 5v drain from the encoders might be causing 
the lower voltage on the 7i85S's outputs?

I would check the 5V rail at the 7I85S card, and if its low, power the 
7I85S directly from 5V rather the through the parallel cable. ALso the 
very first lot (many years ago) of 7I85S cards were built with DS34C87 
drivers which do not have full 5V drive. If you have this card, you 
can get 5V drive by using single ended sinking outputs and 5V+ to 
drive step+ and 7i85s step- to drive

step-

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn
Inc.
630 Henr

Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

2024-04-15 Thread Peter Wallace

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 20:22:03 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
To: Peter Wallace ,
Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
Subject: RE: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

Thanks Peter,

We've had this 7i85s for quite a while, and it must be one of the early ones 
because I see DS34C87TM chips on it.

I'm not sure I like the idea of using them single ended.  But is a +5v-0v 
single ended signal actually any better or even much different than a +/-3v 
differential signal?  How hard would it be to move the last steepen over to 
the 7i88 and have all 8 of these stepgens on one card?  I am not planning on 
using the Smart Serial output on the 7i88.  The 3 servos have been working 
on the 7i85S for years and can stay there.

Differential is needed and advised for servo drives with line receiver inputs,
however, with optocoupled input step/dir drives, there is little advantage to 
differential mode. With optocoupled input step/dir drives the input will only 
see ~3V drive in differential mode with the DS34C87 driver, so its better to 
run in single ended mode with the 7I85S sinking so you get full 5V drive.

I am using the Smart Serial connection on the 7i85s to connect a 7i84.

If all else fails I can simply set all of the other steppers the same as the 
slow one and leave it be.  Even the slow one is working as fast or faster 
than I was hoping it would, but a little more safety margin would be nice.

The drives are likely not rated for 3V input so you would probably be better 
off if you ran single ended.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace 
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2024 3:41 PM
To: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
Cc: Todd Zuercher 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 19:27:19 +
From: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

Cc: Todd Zuercher 
Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

I was working on this machine where I need a whole bunch of extra stepgens.  I 
am using a Mesa 7i85S and a 7i88 connected to a 5i25 card.  I was testing some 
of the stepper drives and I noticed that with one of the drive/motor 
combinations I am needing to use slightly longer step timing and lower max 
velocity.  I thought that this was odd, because all of the drives, motors, and 
mechanicals are the same for all of the ones I was testing.  The only 
difference is that the slower one was connected to a stepgen on the 7i85S and 
all of the others are on the 7i88.  So just for curiosity sake I checked the 
voltage at the input terminals of step/dir signals of the drive.  On the 
terminals connected to the 7i88 I found +/-5v, and on the one connected to the 
7i85S there is only +/-3v.  This is the only difference I've been able to find 
between the different joints in question.

Does it make sense that the voltages would be different on the step/dir outputs 
between the 7i85s and the 7i88?  Does it make sense that the difference would 
cause a difference in the required step timing?  Why might there be a 
difference between the output voltage on the two cards?

Both cards are getting their 5v from the 5i25.  The 7i85S is also connected to 
3 step/gen servo drives and their encoder's feedbacks.  Is it possible that the 
5v drain from the encoders might be causing the lower voltage on the 7i85S's 
outputs?

I would check the 5V rail at the 7I85S card, and if its low, power the 7I85S 
directly from 5V rather the through the parallel cable. ALso the very first lot 
(many years ago) of 7I85S cards were built with DS34C87 drivers which do not 
have full 5V drive. If you have this card, you can get 5V drive by using single 
ended sinking outputs and 5V+ to drive step+ and 7i85s step- to drive
step-

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn
Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

2024-04-15 Thread Todd Zuercher via Emc-users

Thanks Peter,

We've had this 7i85s for quite a while, and it must be one of the early ones 
because I see DS34C87TM chips on it.

I'm not sure I like the idea of using them single ended.  But is a +5v-0v 
single ended signal actually any better or even much different than a +/-3v 
differential signal?  How hard would it be to move the last steepen  over to 
the 7i88 and have all 8 of these stepgens on one card?  I am not planning on 
using the Smart Serial output on the 7i88.  The 3 servos have been working on 
the 7i85S for years and can stay there.

I am using the Smart Serial connection on the 7i85s to connect a 7i84.

If all else fails I can simply set all of the other steppers the same as the 
slow one and leave it be.  Even the slow one is working as fast or faster than 
I was hoping it would, but a little more safety margin would be nice.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace  
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2024 3:41 PM
To: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
Cc: Todd Zuercher 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:

> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 19:27:19 +
> From: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> 
> Cc: Todd Zuercher 
> Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?
>
> I was working on this machine where I need a whole bunch of extra stepgens.  
> I am using a Mesa 7i85S and a 7i88 connected to a 5i25 card.  I was testing 
> some of the stepper drives and I noticed that with one of the drive/motor 
> combinations I am needing to use slightly longer step timing and lower max 
> velocity.  I thought that this was odd, because all of the drives, motors, 
> and mechanicals are the same for all of the ones I was testing.  The only 
> difference is that the slower one was connected to a stepgen on the 7i85S and 
> all of the others are on the 7i88.  So just for curiosity sake I checked the 
> voltage at the input terminals of step/dir signals of the drive.  On the 
> terminals connected to the 7i88 I found +/-5v, and on the one connected to 
> the 7i85S there is only +/-3v.  This is the only difference I've been able to 
> find between the different joints in question.
>
> Does it make sense that the voltages would be different on the step/dir 
> outputs between the 7i85s and the 7i88?  Does it make sense that the 
> difference would cause a difference in the required step timing?  Why might 
> there be a difference between the output voltage on the two cards?
>
> Both cards are getting their 5v from the 5i25.  The 7i85S is also connected 
> to 3 step/gen servo drives and their encoder's feedbacks.  Is it possible 
> that the 5v drain from the encoders might be causing the lower voltage on the 
> 7i85S's outputs?

I would check the 5V rail at the 7I85S card, and if its low, power the 7I85S 
directly from 5V rather the through the parallel cable. ALso the very first lot 
(many years ago) of 7I85S cards were built with DS34C87 drivers which do not 
have full 5V drive. If you have this card, you can get 5V drive by using single 
ended sinking outputs and 5V+ to drive step+ and 7i85s step- to drive
step-

>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn 
> Inc. www.pgrahamdunn.com%2Findex.php&data=05%7C02%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com
> %7Cc87909c9a4b6452a9e7008dc5d83f6a5%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43
> %7C0%7C0%7C638488068569795566%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw
> MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=
> %2BkgiY%2FC9l6%2BqT2O6bnpxqPKur7Myu6%2BaULa01B910Ck%3D&reserved=0>
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
>
> ___
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> s.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C02%7Ctoddz%
> 40pgrahamdunn.com%7Cc87909c9a4b6452a9e7008dc5d83f6a5%7C5758544c573f47c
> ebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638488068569804807%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d
> 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C
> 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sb3DbNBIrWxq9OqYRv32Q6KHka%2FvXqAzp1QV8vF5EeA%3D&rese
> rved=0
>

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

2024-04-15 Thread Peter Wallace

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 19:27:19 +
From: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Cc: Todd Zuercher 
Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

I was working on this machine where I need a whole bunch of extra stepgens.  I 
am using a Mesa 7i85S and a 7i88 connected to a 5i25 card.  I was testing some 
of the stepper drives and I noticed that with one of the drive/motor 
combinations I am needing to use slightly longer step timing and lower max 
velocity.  I thought that this was odd, because all of the drives, motors, and 
mechanicals are the same for all of the ones I was testing.  The only 
difference is that the slower one was connected to a stepgen on the 7i85S and 
all of the others are on the 7i88.  So just for curiosity sake I checked the 
voltage at the input terminals of step/dir signals of the drive.  On the 
terminals connected to the 7i88 I found +/-5v, and on the one connected to the 
7i85S there is only +/-3v.  This is the only difference I've been able to find 
between the different joints in question.

Does it make sense that the voltages would be different on the step/dir outputs 
between the 7i85s and the 7i88?  Does it make sense that the difference would 
cause a difference in the required step timing?  Why might there be a 
difference between the output voltage on the two cards?

Both cards are getting their 5v from the 5i25.  The 7i85S is also connected to 
3 step/gen servo drives and their encoder's feedbacks.  Is it possible that the 
5v drain from the encoders might be causing the lower voltage on the 7i85S's 
outputs?

I would check the 5V rail at the 7I85S card, and if its low, power the 7I85S 
directly from 5V rather the through the parallel cable. ALso the very first 
lot (many years ago) of 7I85S cards were built with DS34C87 drivers which do 
not have full 5V drive. If you have this card, you can get 5V drive by using 
single ended sinking outputs and 5V+ to drive step+ and 7i85s step- to drive 
step-

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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[Emc-users] Mesa Card Stepgens?

2024-04-15 Thread Todd Zuercher via Emc-users

I was working on this machine where I need a whole bunch of extra stepgens.  I 
am using a Mesa 7i85S and a 7i88 connected to a 5i25 card.  I was testing some 
of the stepper drives and I noticed that with one of the drive/motor 
combinations I am needing to use slightly longer step timing and lower max 
velocity.  I thought that this was odd, because all of the drives, motors, and 
mechanicals are the same for all of the ones I was testing.  The only 
difference is that the slower one was connected to a stepgen on the 7i85S and 
all of the others are on the 7i88.  So just for curiosity sake I checked the 
voltage at the input terminals of step/dir signals of the drive.  On the 
terminals connected to the 7i88 I found +/-5v, and on the one connected to the 
7i85S there is only +/-3v.  This is the only difference I've been able to find 
between the different joints in question.

Does it make sense that the voltages would be different on the step/dir outputs 
between the 7i85s and the 7i88?  Does it make sense that the difference would 
cause a difference in the required step timing?  Why might there be a 
difference between the output voltage on the two cards?

Both cards are getting their 5v from the 5i25.  The 7i85S is also connected to 
3 step/gen servo drives and their encoder's feedbacks.  Is it possible that the 
5v drain from the encoders might be causing the lower voltage on the 7i85S's 
outputs?

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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