Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Jeshua Lacock]

On Oct 2, 2012, at 5:25 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:

> I am not familiar with Kickstarter.com, I'll check it out. I can't
> imagine why someone would give me money to play in my shop, but I could
> think of worse things that could happen.

Yeah, many people successfully raise money just for you to play in your shop.

I think the key to successful Kickstarter funding is to promise to make the 
whole project open source.

That way, someone might donate $5 or $50 to make the technology available for 
all interested. Then anyone for $X can follow your BOM and instructions and 
have a vacuum deposition system.

"Stompy" that Jason mentioned raised $100k to build a ridable 18-foot 6-legged 
hydraulic robot. I think the key to their success was making the project open 
source. As they point out, the $65k they needed to build the robot sounds like 
a lot, it is nothing compared to what a commercial robot like that would cost: 
millions if you could even find one. So we all benefit from the technology 
being open source. Perhaps one just wants to build part of the robot such as a 
leg for whatever reason - it brings it in grasp of anyone that really 
needs/wants it.

For most Kickstarter projects the funder gets one of the first available 
finished product being offered (e.g. if you offered a vacuum deposition kit), 
but most people that funded Stompy funded it because they just thought it was 
cool or wanted the technology to be developed.


Cheers,

Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Engineer
3DTOPO Incorporated

Phone: 208.462.4171


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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Kirk Wallace]

On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 14:26 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
... snip
> I'd add that I have a Meade DS-10

Like this one?
http://www.myerphotography.com/1.html 

looks like a very nice scope.

>  that has some mold spots on the main 
> mirror so it could use a re-coat, so I am a potential customer too, Kirk. 

I've looked at:
http://alcoat.net/ 
http://www.opticwavelabs.com/coating.php 
http://www.spectrum-coatings.com/ 

I was planning on going with Spectrum but they seemed to have a 30 day
backlog.

> But "seeing" here in WV is an oxymoron somewhat like military intelligence, 

Solar astronomy with a normal telescope and filter seems to be popular
these days due to light pollution.
http://solarastronomy.org/ 


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http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Kirk Wallace]

On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 13:03 -0400, Kent A. Reed wrote:
> On 9/30/2012 11:45 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> > I'm playing with the thought of putting a vacuum deposition system
> > together to coat telescope mirrors with aluminum. It looks like I could
> Kirk:
> 
> I forgot to ask. What's the biggest mirror you contemplate coating?

The cost of a glass blank is the limiting factor. I'd like to use
borosilicate glass and I probably can only swing a 12" if a really good
deal comes along. I'm hoping that by planning out much of the details
for the mirror and vacuum system, I can take advantage of really good
(maybe even free) deals as they come along. I've even given some thought
to making my own blanks:
http://www.mdpub.com/scopeworks/index.html 
http://www.mdpub.com/ 

> On the one hand, that's a technical question since it affects the sizing 
> of the vacuum chamber, vacuum pumps, and the coating mechanism, and also 
> affects one's ability to coat the mirror uniformly.

I'm thinking of using a flat plate for a chamber base on which I can
place different sized chambers. I suspect the limit to chamber size will
come from pump size, pumping time and the amount of leakage. I'm
expecting I'll upgrade parts of the system as I go, but I'm shooting for
accommodating a 12" mirror with a eye towards 20". I really want what
Drew made on page 8 here:
http://www.altazinitiative.org/Word%20Documents/PdfsLBConf.2010/Hawaii.LBA2010-11.FoamGlassCompositeMirrors-Aurigema.pdf
 

Finding a re-buildable vacuum system in a dumpster would be good.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370658381398 

> On the other hand, it's purely personal curiosity. My long-ago partner 
> in astronomical crimes and I never managed to grind anything bigger than 
> an 8in dia. mirror for a classic Newtonian reflecting telescope. The 
> optical figure wasn't great and we used wet chemistry to silver the 
> mirror so it wasn't so great either. Fortunately, the seeing conditions 
> in and around Albuquerque, New Mexico in the late-1950s, early-1960s 
> were superb and even our crappy scope could give us a number of thrills.
> 
> Regards,
> Kent

I am sending a 6" mirror from a Criterion RV-6
http://www.philharrington.net/old60.htm (about a third of the way down)

that I rescued in pieces from a junk pile to be re-coated in a couple of
days.
http://alcoat.net/al_4.htm 

The mirror worked pretty well even with 40 years, and bird and spider
droppings removing some of the coating.

I am also finishing up the mirror my father started in the 60's. I've
started figuring and put the uncoated mirror in the Criterion tube and
got good views of the Moon and some of the brighter stars. I didn't
expect much since the Foucault tests looked pretty rough. I used the
de-coated Criterion as a reference and the Foucault images looked
perfect except a tiny tiny bit of ripple in the center which is mostly
covered by the the secondary mirror. I'm waiting for more pitch and
rouge to finish my father's mirror, then it's off to the coater.

I'm at 3000ft on the East side of California. Most clear nights I can
faintly see the Milky Way by eye, but I think the Moon phase is the
biggest factor here, occasionally, it really stands out. With the yucky
Criterion mirror I could just make out the Andromeda galaxy. I'm hoping
the new coating will improve this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_Galaxy 


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 03 October 2012 14:11:01 Kent A. Reed did opine:

> On 9/30/2012 11:45 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> > I'm playing with the thought of putting a vacuum deposition system
> > together to coat telescope mirrors with aluminum. It looks like I
> > could
> 
> Kirk:
> 
> I forgot to ask. What's the biggest mirror you contemplate coating?
> 
> On the one hand, that's a technical question since it affects the sizing
> of the vacuum chamber, vacuum pumps, and the coating mechanism, and also
> affects one's ability to coat the mirror uniformly.
> 
> On the other hand, it's purely personal curiosity. My long-ago partner
> in astronomical crimes and I never managed to grind anything bigger than
> an 8in dia. mirror for a classic Newtonian reflecting telescope. The
> optical figure wasn't great and we used wet chemistry to silver the
> mirror so it wasn't so great either. Fortunately, the seeing conditions
> in and around Albuquerque, New Mexico in the late-1950s, early-1960s
> were superb and even our crappy scope could give us a number of thrills.
> 
> Regards,
> Kent

I'd add that I have a Meade DS-10 that has some mold spots on the main 
mirror so it could use a re-coat, so I am a potential customer too, Kirk. 

But "seeing" here in WV is an oxymoron somewhat like military intelligence, 
so I've been contemplating donating it to the good folks at Chaco Canyon 
National Park in NM, where the seeing is generally very good.  They have a 
small observatory there, public welcome, and could probably make 100's of 
times the use of it that I ever will hear.  They use it for star parties 
several times a year since its 50+ miles to anyplace that lights up the 
sky.  I have done some work for the NPS, both at Mt. Rushmore and at Chaco 
Canyon.  Great people.  I put up the first tv antenna system at Chaco back 
in the 70's.  Before that, all they had was very poor radio & drive to 
Santa Fe for the papers & mail.  You could say they were starved for news 
99% of the time.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Kent A. Reed]

On 9/30/2012 11:45 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> I'm playing with the thought of putting a vacuum deposition system
> together to coat telescope mirrors with aluminum. It looks like I could
Kirk:

I forgot to ask. What's the biggest mirror you contemplate coating?

On the one hand, that's a technical question since it affects the sizing 
of the vacuum chamber, vacuum pumps, and the coating mechanism, and also 
affects one's ability to coat the mirror uniformly.

On the other hand, it's purely personal curiosity. My long-ago partner 
in astronomical crimes and I never managed to grind anything bigger than 
an 8in dia. mirror for a classic Newtonian reflecting telescope. The 
optical figure wasn't great and we used wet chemistry to silver the 
mirror so it wasn't so great either. Fortunately, the seeing conditions 
in and around Albuquerque, New Mexico in the late-1950s, early-1960s 
were superb and even our crappy scope could give us a number of thrills.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Jason Burton]

On Oct 2, 2012 6:43 PM, "Kirk Wallace"  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2012-10-02 at 15:55 -0600, Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> > On Sep 30, 2012, at 9:45 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> >
> > > I'm playing with the thought of putting a vacuum deposition system
> ... snip
> >
> > Cool!
> >
> > I bet if you made the whole project open source you could get funding
for it on Kickstarter.com.
> >
> > Anyhow; just an idea! I would love to see an open source project for
this.
> ... snip
>
> Thanks to some on this list, I got links that all together cover the
> subject fairly well. Most of the user friendly information is more
> show-and-tell after someone has built and used their system, so a lot of
> the lower level details and reasoning has been left out. A cookbook
> style of documentation would be good. If I can get around to building a
> system I'll certainly consider documenting with a cookbook format in
> mind. Here is a cookbook'ish document
> http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Vacuum/
>
> that is available from the Yahoo VacuumX group:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VacuumX/
>
> I am not familiar with Kickstarter.com, I'll check it out. I can't
> imagine why someone would give me money to play in my shop, but I could
> think of worse things that could happen.
>
>
> --
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
> California, USA
>

If you wanted to start a service coating mirrors for other people (or
selling coated mirrors of your own manufacture), kickstarter would be just
the thing.

You set a threshold for what would be enough to get you going. If you do
not make that threshold, nobodies cards get charged and you spare yourself
half a market of angry customers.

If you sell enough to make your target (bearing in mind Amazon's share) all
backers cards are charged at the completion of the campaign.

Twoish weeks later the funds are released to you to execute whatever you
promised. Be it make a product or perform a service.

For examples, try "Stompy" and the "open source spectrophotometer".

Jason
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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Kirk Wallace]

On Tue, 2012-10-02 at 15:55 -0600, Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> On Sep 30, 2012, at 9:45 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> 
> > I'm playing with the thought of putting a vacuum deposition system
... snip
> 
> Cool!
> 
> I bet if you made the whole project open source you could get funding for it 
> on Kickstarter.com.
> 
> Anyhow; just an idea! I would love to see an open source project for this.
... snip

Thanks to some on this list, I got links that all together cover the
subject fairly well. Most of the user friendly information is more
show-and-tell after someone has built and used their system, so a lot of
the lower level details and reasoning has been left out. A cookbook
style of documentation would be good. If I can get around to building a
system I'll certainly consider documenting with a cookbook format in
mind. Here is a cookbook'ish document
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Vacuum/ 

that is available from the Yahoo VacuumX group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VacuumX/ 

I am not familiar with Kickstarter.com, I'll check it out. I can't
imagine why someone would give me money to play in my shop, but I could
think of worse things that could happen.


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Jeshua Lacock]

On Sep 30, 2012, at 9:45 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:

> I'm playing with the thought of putting a vacuum deposition system
> together to coat telescope mirrors with aluminum. It looks like I could
> get everything I need from eBay at relatively low cost. Of course,
> elements of LinuxCNC could be used to monitor and control the system.
> Does anyone have any links to a system I could study or copy, or any
> other information? One issue is what I need for a pressure gauge, a
> Pirani and or ionization gauge?

Cool!

I bet if you made the whole project open source you could get funding for it on 
Kickstarter.com.

Anyhow; just an idea! I would love to see an open source project for this.


Cheers,

Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Engineer
3DTOPO Incorporated

Phone: 208.462.4171


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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Jon Elson]

Kirk Wallace wrote:
> I'm playing with the thought of putting a vacuum deposition system
> together to coat telescope mirrors with aluminum. It looks like I could
> get everything I need from eBay at relatively low cost. Of course,
> elements of LinuxCNC could be used to monitor and control the system.
> Does anyone have any links to a system I could study or copy, or any
> other information? One issue is what I need for a pressure gauge, a
> Pirani and or ionization gauge?
>   
A Pirani gauge doesn't go low enough, it measures the thermal 
conductivity of the
vacuum.  A really fancy one will go down to 10 ^ -5 Torr.
Ion gauges of several types do go low enough (10 ^ -6 Torr), which is what
you need for vacuum coating.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Thomas Kaiser]

On 10/01/2012 05:45 AM,Kirk Wallace wrote:
> I'm playing with the thought of putting a vacuum deposition system
> together to coat telescope mirrors with aluminum. It looks like I could
> get everything I need from eBay at relatively low cost. Of course,
> elements of LinuxCNC could be used to monitor and control the system.
> Does anyone have any links to a system I could study or copy, or any
> other information? One issue is what I need for a pressure gauge, a
> Pirani and or ionization gauge?
>
Hello Kirk

The vacuum gauge depends on the vacuum range you are operating. A Pirani 
can measure fore vacuum and a Penning is for high vacuum. You probably 
need both.

You can check these data sheets:
www.inficon.com/download/en/tiba29e1%20%20Data%20sheet%20PSG500_PSG502.pdf

www.inficon.com/download/en/tiba22e1_a.pdf

Thomas



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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Dave Caroline]

Good timing of this discussion, I just had a request for an Edwards
High Vacuum diffusion pump manual (model A102)
and while looking at the documentation I have and its source (Joseph
Lucas Ltd, likely the semiconductor manufacturing unit) ) I notice I
have the manual for a high vacuum coating unit model 6E of which the
diffusion pump is just a part of it.

Dave Caroline

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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[andy pugh]

On 1 October 2012 05:35, Kent A. Reed  wrote:

> It's been 40 years since I did any serious sputtering

Not quite so long for me, nearer 20, but I suspect that the equipment
was the same age.

> Typically, we had a christmas tree of aneroid gauge,
> thermocouple gauge, Pirani gauge, and Penning gauge or some such, to
> cover the pressure range, but we wore belts and suspenders:-)

I recall a valve for switching between Pirani and Penning, I also
recall that we had a mechanical roughing pump then an oil diffusion
pump which were operated in manual sequence.
Much more recently I worked for an X-ray microscope maker (nice toys:
http://www.nordson.com/en-us/divisions/dage/products/ExampleProductFamily/Pages/CTOption.aspx
the picture there shows in-situ BGA balls and bond-wires.) and I was
amazed how simple it now was. Just one turbomolecular pump achieved
vacuums unheard-of with the diffusion pump, and without spending
hundreds on diff pump oil on a regular basis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbomolecular_pump seems to suggest that
you still need a backing pump, it is possible that this was built-in
to the TM pump on the X-ray tubes.
(I didn't pay that much attention, as I was working on the development
of a sealed-for-life version of the tube)

> As my grandkids grow, I feel the itch to have a vacuum bench in the
> basement for "Ask Mr Wizard" kinds of experiments. Anything so long as
> it doesn't generate X-rays.

But X-rays are fun!

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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[jeremy youngs]

kirk check this site out
http://imajeenyus.com/
jeremy youngs

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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Kent A. Reed]

On 10/1/2012 12:35 AM, Kent A. Reed wrote:
> It's been 40 years since I did any serious sputtering (mostly coupons 
> and filters, not mirrors)
Doh. I said sputtering when I meant deposition by evaporation. 
Sputtering may not require such a high vacuum as I stated, but I have no 
experience.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Kent A. Reed]

On 9/30/2012 11:45 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> I'm playing with the thought of putting a vacuum deposition system
> together to coat telescope mirrors with aluminum. It looks like I could
> get everything I need from eBay at relatively low cost. Of course,
> elements of LinuxCNC could be used to monitor and control the system.
> Does anyone have any links to a system I could study or copy, or any
> other information? One issue is what I need for a pressure gauge, a
> Pirani and or ionization gauge?
>
> So far I've found:
> http://belljar.net/forum/index.php
> http://www.public.asu.edu/~aomdw/GLASS/
> http://www4.nau.edu/microanalysis/Microprobe/Vacuum-Overview.html
>
Kirk:

It's been 40 years since I did any serious sputtering (mostly coupons 
and filters, not mirrors) but the bottom line is you need a gauge which 
will provide useful readings at working pressure. I seem to recall we 
wanted pressures (ca 10^(-5) Torr), beyond the working range of most 
Pirani gauges. Typically, we had a christmas tree of aneroid gauge, 
thermocouple gauge, Pirani gauge, and Penning gauge or some such, to 
cover the pressure range, but we wore belts and suspenders:-)

Hmmm. I believe there were "recent" (end of the last century) Amateur 
Scientist columns on the subject but I have to find my collected-works 
cdrom to check.

Hmmm, part 2. See http://www.finishing.com/4200-4399/4359.shtml

Hmmm, part 3. See the Yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vacuumx/

Finally, Peter Albrecht, who once upon a time worked with me at Argonne 
National Laboratory, has become well known in amateur telescope circles. 
Look for messages by PLAlbrecht. I'm sure he'd respond to queries.

As my grandkids grow, I feel the itch to have a vacuum bench in the 
basement for "Ask Mr Wizard" kinds of experiments. Anything so long as 
it doesn't generate X-rays.

Good hunting!

Regards,
Kent


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[Emc-users] [OT] Vacuum System

[Kirk Wallace]

I'm playing with the thought of putting a vacuum deposition system
together to coat telescope mirrors with aluminum. It looks like I could
get everything I need from eBay at relatively low cost. Of course,
elements of LinuxCNC could be used to monitor and control the system.
Does anyone have any links to a system I could study or copy, or any
other information? One issue is what I need for a pressure gauge, a
Pirani and or ionization gauge?

So far I've found:
http://belljar.net/forum/index.php 
http://www.public.asu.edu/~aomdw/GLASS/ 
http://www4.nau.edu/microanalysis/Microprobe/Vacuum-Overview.html 

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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