Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

On 1 February 2015 at 23:39, dave  wrote:
> The
> technology for converting
> resolvers to digital has gotten much cheaper

True, I ended up writing the Mesa resolver and 3-phase PWM drivers and
the bldc component to get my mill working.
I guess it was a bit harder until I did all that :-)

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[dave]

On 02/01/2015 09:49 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 1 February 2015 at 17:05, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
>> I know very little about resolvers, but I think it means that resolvers
>> are analog so one needs to determine what the 100% and 0% signal values
>> are, and values in between (to deal with linearity) to convert to data.
> The reader takes the ratio of the sin and cos voltages, so the
> absolute voltage is vaguely irrelevant.
>
> I think what I am saying is that the tendency of folk to immediately
> remove a $1000 resolver and fit a $100 encoder when doing a retrofit
> might be a mistake.
>
I  did exactly that on my Mazak. Today I might play it differently. The 
technology for converting
resolvers to digital has gotten much cheaper. Still it is very nice to 
have the position indicator
directly coupled to the ball screw. It might be most interesting to use 
the gearing that was on
the tail end of the servo motor and hang it on the end of the ball screw 
(7:1 ratio) and then go
A -> D.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 01 February 2015 13:41:03 Karlsson & Wang did opine
And Gene did reply:
> It might simply be because resolvers are analog which considered to be
> old technology. It is useful to have some extra resolution above the
> accuracy for the control loop and I think resolvers usually have
> higher resolution.
> 
> I read many times digital control loops are faster but quite a lot of
> digital control loops are a lot slower than the cheapest available
> operational operational.
> 
This is why one studies his rockhopper output, to see if the digital data 
can make it all the way thru the chain of processing modules in one servo 
thread invocation by changing the order of the addf's in the .hal file.

The delay in that case is fixed, and a direct function of the servo thread 
frequency.  Often, raising the servo thread frequency can go a long long 
way toward rock solid stability in a spindle speed control circuit.  My 
lathe, now that I have a 5i25 doing the high speed stepper honors, is now 
running with a nominally 4 kilohertz servo thread, enhancing the 
effectiveness of the speed servo considerably without instability or 
overly soft control down to about 250 rpms.

Conversely I have purposely inverted that order if I needed a slower 
responding loop.  But be aware of Nyquist phase reversals in that event as 
they can really enhance a near resonant condition.  Basically its best not 
to allow a phase shift to ever exceed 90 degrees of the system resonant 
frequency where the gain at that frequency is above one.
> 
> On Sun, 1 Feb 2015 17:49:41 +
> 
> andy pugh  wrote:
> > On 1 February 2015 at 17:05, Kirk Wallace 
 wrote:
> > > I know very little about resolvers, but I think it means that
> > > resolvers are analog so one needs to determine what the 100% and
> > > 0% signal values are, and values in between (to deal with
> > > linearity) to convert to data.
> > 
> > The reader takes the ratio of the sin and cos voltages, so the
> > absolute voltage is vaguely irrelevant.
> > 
> > I think what I am saying is that the tendency of folk to immediately
> > remove a $1000 resolver and fit a $100 encoder when doing a retrofit
> > might be a mistake.
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Karlsson & Wang]

It might simply be because resolvers are analog which considered to be old 
technology. It is useful to have some extra resolution above the accuracy for 
the control loop and I think resolvers usually have higher resolution.

I read many times digital control loops are faster but quite a lot of digital 
control loops are a lot slower than the cheapest available operational 
operational.



On Sun, 1 Feb 2015 17:49:41 +
andy pugh  wrote:

> On 1 February 2015 at 17:05, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
> > I know very little about resolvers, but I think it means that resolvers
> > are analog so one needs to determine what the 100% and 0% signal values
> > are, and values in between (to deal with linearity) to convert to data.
> 
> The reader takes the ratio of the sin and cos voltages, so the
> absolute voltage is vaguely irrelevant.
> 
> I think what I am saying is that the tendency of folk to immediately
> remove a $1000 resolver and fit a $100 encoder when doing a retrofit
> might be a mistake.
> 
> -- 
> atp
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

On 1 February 2015 at 17:05, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
> I know very little about resolvers, but I think it means that resolvers
> are analog so one needs to determine what the 100% and 0% signal values
> are, and values in between (to deal with linearity) to convert to data.

The reader takes the ratio of the sin and cos voltages, so the
absolute voltage is vaguely irrelevant.

I think what I am saying is that the tendency of folk to immediately
remove a $1000 resolver and fit a $100 encoder when doing a retrofit
might be a mistake.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Jon Elson]

On 02/01/2015 11:05 AM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On 02/01/2015 08:36 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>> On 1 February 2015 at 16:25, Kirk Wallace  
>> wrote:
>>> However, they are
>>> inflexible in their application, and must be specifically "tuned" to
>>> meet the drive system requirements
>> I wonder what that means, and if it is even true?
>>
> I know very little about resolvers, but I think it means that resolvers
> are analog so one needs to determine what the 100% and 0% signal values
> are, and values in between (to deal with linearity) to convert to data.
> Encoder signals are ether on or off and directly usable for data.
>
Yes, you need to set the device reading the resolver for the 
transformer ratio of the
specific resolver.  Linearity is not a problem.  These 
things are built to insane precision
for the aerospace and machine tool industries.  If you read 
the data sheets on them,
they are tested with a goniometer and precision resolver 
display to arc seconds
of accuracy.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Jon Elson]

On 02/01/2015 10:36 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 1 February 2015 at 16:25, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
>> However, they are
>> inflexible in their application, and must be specifically "tuned" to
>> meet the drive system requirements
> I wonder what that means, and if it is even true?
>
I've found that most size 11 resolvers,
from the Singer/Kearfott and Harowe Controls Harosyn lines 
are pretty
much interchangeable.  You do have to set the resolver 
reader unit for the proper
transformer ratio of the resolver, but that is about all 
there is to it.  Tamagawa
resolvers with wound rotors also work fine.

Now, some of the newer Tamagawa variable reluctance 
resolvers need a lot more
drive current than my resolver converter can provide.  Also, 
they usually have a very
high number of poles, which makes it impossible to have a 
one-per-rev index
pulse.

Kirk may have meant that the thing reading the resolver 
needs to be set for the
characteristics of the resolver, but it should be a standard 
practice to set that.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Karlsson & Wang]

http://www.leinelinde.com/Products/

I took a fast look:
  Encoder http://www.leinelinde.com/Documents/Brochure/700_Series_eng.pdf with 
up to 10 000 ppr equal to a little bit less than 14 bits resolution which I 
assume be more or less equal to accuracy.
  Resolver http://www.leinelinde.com/Documents/Brochure/600_Series_eng.pdf with 
up to 19 bits resolution.

Encoders usually have quadrature output signals and are incremental. Resolvers 
usually need to be driven by at sinus input voltage, sense difference between 
sinus voltages and are absolute. I guess voltage levels on both are rather 
standardized. Both may be fitted with standard industrial communication like 
profibus DP or CAN instead of direct signals.


I guess the big question is if angle sensor or other mechanical limitations are 
limiting the accuracy or control loop. The control loop need some extra 
resolution to be effective so I would guess a resolver with same accuracy as an 
encoder but higher resolution would be a better choice.

Nicklas Karlsson




On Sun, 01 Feb 2015 08:25:48 -0800
Kirk Wallace  wrote:

> ... snip
> 
> >>> I think that the servos + resolvers will work a fair bit better than
> >>> steppers. I was rather upset when I found that my ebay bargain servos
> >>> had resolvers, but now I am something of a fan of the devices.
> >> I have to agree, if they are used correctly with good electronics to
> >> drive them, they are very good and they last.
> 
> ... snip
> 
> For most cases, my vote is with encoders, but if the resolvers are 
> installed and working that's a plus for resolvers. I didn't have an 
> option at the time I converted my lathe:
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/6-1a.jpg
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/
> 
> http://www.heidenhain.us/enews/stories_0411/AUmain.php
> --
> "SUMMARY
> Resolvers provide absolute position information and are capable of 
> operating in relatively high temperature and shock environments because 
> they are similar in construction to the motor itself. However, they are 
> inflexible in their application, and must be specifically "tuned" to 
> meet the drive system requirements. Encoders on the other hand, can be 
> absolute or incremental, simplify the design task, are more accurate, 
> allow for a wider dynamic range and are more flexible should changes be 
> necessary in the future."
> 
> -- 
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Kirk Wallace]

On 02/01/2015 08:36 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 1 February 2015 at 16:25, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
>> However, they are
>> inflexible in their application, and must be specifically "tuned" to
>> meet the drive system requirements
>
> I wonder what that means, and if it is even true?
>

I know very little about resolvers, but I think it means that resolvers 
are analog so one needs to determine what the 100% and 0% signal values 
are, and values in between (to deal with linearity) to convert to data. 
Encoder signals are ether on or off and directly usable for data.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

On 1 February 2015 at 16:25, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
> However, they are
> inflexible in their application, and must be specifically "tuned" to
> meet the drive system requirements

I wonder what that means, and if it is even true?

-- 
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http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Kirk Wallace]

... snip

>>> I think that the servos + resolvers will work a fair bit better than
>>> steppers. I was rather upset when I found that my ebay bargain servos
>>> had resolvers, but now I am something of a fan of the devices.
>> I have to agree, if they are used correctly with good electronics to
>> drive them, they are very good and they last.

... snip

For most cases, my vote is with encoders, but if the resolvers are 
installed and working that's a plus for resolvers. I didn't have an 
option at the time I converted my lathe:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/6-1a.jpg
http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/

http://www.heidenhain.us/enews/stories_0411/AUmain.php
--
"SUMMARY
Resolvers provide absolute position information and are capable of 
operating in relatively high temperature and shock environments because 
they are similar in construction to the motor itself. However, they are 
inflexible in their application, and must be specifically "tuned" to 
meet the drive system requirements. Encoders on the other hand, can be 
absolute or incremental, simplify the design task, are more accurate, 
allow for a wider dynamic range and are more flexible should changes be 
necessary in the future."

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Karlsson & Wang]

Using the STM32 is not a problem but connecting to an inverter is.

Nicklas Karlsson
Micropower



On Fri, 30 Jan 2015 13:40:21 +
"Marius Liebenberg"  wrote:

> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "andy pugh" 
> To: "Marius Liebenberg" 
> Cc: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> 
> Sent: 2015-01-30 15:34:16
> Subject: Re: Re[4]: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component
> 
> >On 30 January 2015 at 13:16, Marius Liebenberg  
> >wrote:
> >
> >>  He said I should covert to steppers for the sake of cost and I said 
> >>No lets
> >>  try and make the servos work.
> >
> >I think that the servos + resolvers will work a fair bit better than
> >steppers. I was rather upset when I found that my ebay bargain servos
> >had resolvers, but now I am something of a fan of the devices.
> I have to agree, if they are used correctly with good electronics to 
> drive them, they are very good and they last.
> I have started looking at a drive using the STM32 series of MCU as there 
> are a number of projects going on with them. There might be a modestly 
> priced solution from that in the end.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >--
> >atp
> >If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> >http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 1/30/2015 7:48 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 30 January 2015 at 14:41, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:
>
>> It's actually "Pluk n lat vir jou eie gat"
>
> It's like Dutch isn't it? English but spelt really badly :-)
>
> "Pluck a lath for your own back"

I like the Polish "Not My Circus, Not My Monkey".


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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" ; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: 2015-01-30 16:48:42
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>On 30 January 2015 at 14:41, Marius Liebenberg  
>wrote:
>
>>  It's actually "Pluk n lat vir jou eie gat"
>
>It's like Dutch isn't it? English but spelt really badly :-)
>
>"Pluck a lath for your own back"
>
Almost got it right :)

>--
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>If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

  I was about to have some made for myself but I will wait for your to be 
done.

-- Original Message --
From: "Rene Hopf" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 

Sent: 2015-01-30 18:10:40
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>Hi,
>
>200V @ 10A with resolvers looks like a good candidate for my brushless 
>Driver.
>We are making very good progress at the moment.
>https://github.com/rene-dev/stmbl
>If anyone is interested in PCBs, let me know, I will order some in a 
>few weeks.
>
>Rene
>
>On 30 Jan 2015, at 15:48, andy pugh  wrote:
>
>>  On 30 January 2015 at 14:41, Marius Liebenberg 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  It's actually "Pluk n lat vir jou eie gat"
>>
>>  It's like Dutch isn't it? English but spelt really badly :-)
>>
>>  "Pluck a lath for your own back"
>>
>>  --
>>  atp
>>  If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>>  http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>>
>>  
>>--
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Jon Elson]

On 01/30/2015 07:47 AM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
> I have a feeling that these have resolver and hall sensors as there is
> huge number of wires on the plug. More that what a resolver will need.
>
>
Ahh, then our resolver converter would also work will with 
them. The resolver
converter's A-B-Z signals go to the CNC control interface, 
the Hall signals go
to the motor drive (or some digital inputs to tell BLDC the 
motor position).

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Jon Elson]

On 01/30/2015 06:54 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 30 January 2015 at 12:33, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:
>> 196V @ 8.5A and looks like a resolver feedback. These are the Lafert.  The
>> others I have not seen yet.
> That sounds a lot like what I have on my mill.
>
> Pico-systems have a 160V / 20A servo drive that can probably be made
> to work along with their resolver-to-quadrature converter. I think you
> would need advice from Jon as to how to commutate using the converter.
> It may be that the bldc component can help there.
Our current version of the resolver converter produces 
quadrature (ie. incremental)
position.  It does have an absolute binary output as 12 
CMOS-level bits available
on a header.  I have thought about adding a feature to 
create the industry
standard "Hall signals", but as this needs to accommodate 
the number of motor
poles and maybe alignment offsets between motor and resolver 
shafts, it
gets complicated.  BLDC does apparently have a sensorless 
mode where it
can get the motor moving by trying different windings, and 
then get in sync once
the index pulse is seen.
>
> There are drives from the likes of AMC that take +/-10V command and
> hall signal patterns. The bldc component can convert resolver feedback
> from the 7i49 to hall patterns. This might also work with the Pico
> drives, but I think that they are PWM controlled rather than analogue.
Yes, our drives take a digital PWM signal.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

On 30 January 2015 at 16:10, Rene Hopf  wrote:
> 200V @ 10A with resolvers looks like a good candidate for my brushless Driver.

I just remembered that Granite Drives have a (very cheap) adaptor to
allow use of Resolvers with the Argon drives too.
You would almost certainly end up using step/dir control with that system.
http://shop.granitedevices.com/product/38/argon-resolver-adapter
I think it is just some passive components and the cleverness is in
the drive firmware.


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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Rene Hopf]

Hi,

200V @ 10A with resolvers looks like a good candidate for my brushless Driver.
We are making very good progress at the moment.
https://github.com/rene-dev/stmbl
If anyone is interested in PCBs, let me know, I will order some in a few weeks.

Rene

On 30 Jan 2015, at 15:48, andy pugh  wrote:

> On 30 January 2015 at 14:41, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:
> 
>> It's actually "Pluk n lat vir jou eie gat"
> 
> It's like Dutch isn't it? English but spelt really badly :-)
> 
> "Pluck a lath for your own back"
> 
> -- 
> atp
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

On 30 January 2015 at 14:41, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:

> It's actually "Pluk n lat vir jou eie gat"

It's like Dutch isn't it? English but spelt really badly :-)

"Pluck a lath for your own back"

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

-- Original Message --
From: "Belli Button" 
To: "'Marius Liebenberg'" ; "'Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)'" 
Sent: 2015-01-30 16:02:49
Subject: RE: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>Maak 'n lat vir jou eie gat?
>
It's actually "Pluk n lat vir jou eie gat"

>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Marius Liebenberg [mailto:mar...@mastercut.co.za]
>Sent: 30 January 2015 15:17
>To: andy pugh
>Cc: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component
>
>We have a saying in my language that roughly translated says : "I have 
>just
>picked a lashing stick for my own ass" :)
>
>He said I should covert to steppers for the sake of cost and I said No 
>lets
>try and make the servos work.
>
>I will have to look at Jon's stuff as well before I decide. Thanks for 
>all
>the great info. I have a feeling though that I will ask some more 
>questions
>on the BLDC component in the near future.
>
>
>------ Original Message --
>From: "andy pugh" 
>To: "Marius Liebenberg" 
>Cc: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>
>Sent: 2015-01-30 14:54:06
>Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component
>
>>On 30 January 2015 at 12:33, Marius Liebenberg 
>>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>   196V @ 8.5A and looks like a resolver feedback. These are the 
>>>Lafert.
>>>The
>>>   others I have not seen yet.
>>
>>That sounds a lot like what I have on my mill.
>>
>>Pico-systems have a 160V / 20A servo drive that can probably be made 
>>to
>>work along with their resolver-to-quadrature converter. I think you
>>would need advice from Jon as to how to commutate using the converter.
>>It may be that the bldc component can help there.
>>
>>On my machine I am using a set of the Mesa 8i20 drives and the 7i49
>>resolver interface board. Because the 8i20 takes digital phase angle
>>information I am not using the 7i49 analogue outputs, and had to add a
>>7i44 for the serial comms. The FPGA board on my system is the 5i23 but
>>I think that 5i24 or 6i24 are cheaper and equivalent now.
>>
>>There are drives from the likes of AMC that take +/-10V command and
>>hall signal patterns. The bldc component can convert resolver feedback
>>from the 7i49 to hall patterns. This might also work with the Pico
>>drives, but I think that they are PWM controlled rather than analogue.
>>
>>You almost certainly can't connect resolvers to the parallel port even
>>through quadrature converters because the counts-per-rev is too high.
>>The Pico boards count in hardware (and connect to the parport) so do
>>work with their resolver to quadrature board.
>>
>>Whilst other options exist, the 5i23 / 7i49 / 7i44 / 8i20 combination
>>is known to work, though is not inexpensive.
>>
>>--
>>atp
>>If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>>http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>
>
>
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>your
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>look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" 
Cc: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 

Sent: 2015-01-30 15:57:43
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>On 30 January 2015 at 13:47, Marius Liebenberg  
>wrote:
>>  I have a feeling that these have resolver and hall sensors as there 
>>is huge
>>  number of wires on the plug. More that what a resolver will need.
>
>That's interesting and opens up the possibility of using a number of
>alternative drives.
>
>However, having said that the Mesa solution is expensive, if you are
>buying new drives then the 8i20 is relatively cheap, it is just
>expensive relative to used stuff from eBay.
>
>Do you have the original 200V supply for the motors on the machine?
>There is a fair saving to be had by re-using that.
Not sure about that. I will have to ask the man. He did seem to have a 
lot of the original stuff that was stripped out of the box.
>
>--
>atp
>If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Belli Button]

Maak 'n lat vir  jou eie gat?



-Original Message-
From: Marius Liebenberg [mailto:mar...@mastercut.co.za] 
Sent: 30 January 2015 15:17
To: andy pugh
Cc: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

We have a saying in my language that roughly translated says : "I have just
picked a lashing stick for my own ass" :)

He said I should covert to steppers for the sake of cost and I said No lets
try and make the servos work.

I will have to look at Jon's stuff as well before I decide. Thanks for all
the great info. I have a feeling though that I will ask some more questions
on the BLDC component in the near future.


-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" 
Cc: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 

Sent: 2015-01-30 14:54:06
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>On 30 January 2015 at 12:33, Marius Liebenberg 
>wrote:
>>
>>  196V @ 8.5A and looks like a resolver feedback. These are the Lafert. 
>>The
>>  others I have not seen yet.
>
>That sounds a lot like what I have on my mill.
>
>Pico-systems have a 160V / 20A servo drive that can probably be made to 
>work along with their resolver-to-quadrature converter. I think you 
>would need advice from Jon as to how to commutate using the converter.
>It may be that the bldc component can help there.
>
>On my machine I am using a set of the Mesa 8i20 drives and the 7i49 
>resolver interface board. Because the 8i20 takes digital phase angle 
>information I am not using the 7i49 analogue outputs, and had to add a
>7i44 for the serial comms. The FPGA board on my system is the 5i23 but 
>I think that 5i24 or 6i24 are cheaper and equivalent now.
>
>There are drives from the likes of AMC that take +/-10V command and 
>hall signal patterns. The bldc component can convert resolver feedback 
>from the 7i49 to hall patterns. This might also work with the Pico 
>drives, but I think that they are PWM controlled rather than analogue.
>
>You almost certainly can't connect resolvers to the parallel port even 
>through quadrature converters because the counts-per-rev is too high.
>The Pico boards count in hardware (and connect to the parport) so do 
>work with their resolver to quadrature board.
>
>Whilst other options exist, the 5i23 / 7i49 / 7i44 / 8i20 combination 
>is known to work, though is not inexpensive.
>
>--
>atp
>If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto



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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

On 30 January 2015 at 13:47, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:
> I have a feeling that these have resolver and hall sensors as there is huge
> number of wires on the plug. More that what a resolver will need.

That's interesting and opens up the possibility of using a number of
alternative drives.

However, having said that the Mesa solution is expensive, if you are
buying new drives then the 8i20 is relatively cheap, it is just
expensive relative to used stuff from eBay.

Do you have the original 200V supply for the motors on the machine?
There is a fair saving to be had by re-using that.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

I have a feeling that these have resolver and hall sensors as there is 
huge number of wires on the plug. More that what a resolver will need.

-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" 
Cc: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 

Sent: 2015-01-30 15:34:16
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>On 30 January 2015 at 13:16, Marius Liebenberg  
>wrote:
>
>>  He said I should covert to steppers for the sake of cost and I said 
>>No lets
>>  try and make the servos work.
>
>I think that the servos + resolvers will work a fair bit better than
>steppers. I was rather upset when I found that my ebay bargain servos
>had resolvers, but now I am something of a fan of the devices.
>
>--
>atp
>If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" 
Cc: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 

Sent: 2015-01-30 15:34:16
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>On 30 January 2015 at 13:16, Marius Liebenberg  
>wrote:
>
>>  He said I should covert to steppers for the sake of cost and I said 
>>No lets
>>  try and make the servos work.
>
>I think that the servos + resolvers will work a fair bit better than
>steppers. I was rather upset when I found that my ebay bargain servos
>had resolvers, but now I am something of a fan of the devices.
I have to agree, if they are used correctly with good electronics to 
drive them, they are very good and they last.
I have started looking at a drive using the STM32 series of MCU as there 
are a number of projects going on with them. There might be a modestly 
priced solution from that in the end.



>
>--
>atp
>If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

On 30 January 2015 at 13:16, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:

> He said I should covert to steppers for the sake of cost and I said No lets
> try and make the servos work.

I think that the servos + resolvers will work a fair bit better than
steppers. I was rather upset when I found that my ebay bargain servos
had resolvers, but now I am something of a fan of the devices.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

We have a saying in my language that roughly translated says : "I have 
just picked a lashing stick for my own ass" :)

He said I should covert to steppers for the sake of cost and I said No 
lets try and make the servos work.

I will have to look at Jon's stuff as well before I decide. Thanks for 
all the great info. I have a feeling though that I will ask some more 
questions on the BLDC component in the near future.


-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" 
Cc: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 

Sent: 2015-01-30 14:54:06
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>On 30 January 2015 at 12:33, Marius Liebenberg  
>wrote:
>>
>>  196V @ 8.5A and looks like a resolver feedback. These are the Lafert. 
>>The
>>  others I have not seen yet.
>
>That sounds a lot like what I have on my mill.
>
>Pico-systems have a 160V / 20A servo drive that can probably be made
>to work along with their resolver-to-quadrature converter. I think you
>would need advice from Jon as to how to commutate using the converter.
>It may be that the bldc component can help there.
>
>On my machine I am using a set of the Mesa 8i20 drives and the 7i49
>resolver interface board. Because the 8i20 takes digital phase angle
>information I am not using the 7i49 analogue outputs, and had to add a
>7i44 for the serial comms. The FPGA board on my system is the 5i23 but
>I think that 5i24 or 6i24 are cheaper and equivalent now.
>
>There are drives from the likes of AMC that take +/-10V command and
>hall signal patterns. The bldc component can convert resolver feedback
>from the 7i49 to hall patterns. This might also work with the Pico
>drives, but I think that they are PWM controlled rather than analogue.
>
>You almost certainly can't connect resolvers to the parallel port even
>through quadrature converters because the counts-per-rev is too high.
>The Pico boards count in hardware (and connect to the parport) so do
>work with their resolver to quadrature board.
>
>Whilst other options exist, the 5i23 / 7i49 / 7i44 / 8i20 combination
>is known to work, though is not inexpensive.
>
>--
>atp
>If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

On 30 January 2015 at 12:33, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:
>
> 196V @ 8.5A and looks like a resolver feedback. These are the Lafert.  The
> others I have not seen yet.

That sounds a lot like what I have on my mill.

Pico-systems have a 160V / 20A servo drive that can probably be made
to work along with their resolver-to-quadrature converter. I think you
would need advice from Jon as to how to commutate using the converter.
It may be that the bldc component can help there.

On my machine I am using a set of the Mesa 8i20 drives and the 7i49
resolver interface board. Because the 8i20 takes digital phase angle
information I am not using the 7i49 analogue outputs, and had to add a
7i44 for the serial comms. The FPGA board on my system is the 5i23 but
I think that 5i24 or 6i24 are cheaper and equivalent now.

There are drives from the likes of AMC that take +/-10V command and
hall signal patterns. The bldc component can convert resolver feedback
from the 7i49 to hall patterns. This might also work with the Pico
drives, but I think that they are PWM controlled rather than analogue.

You almost certainly can't connect resolvers to the parallel port even
through quadrature converters because the counts-per-rev is too high.
The Pico boards count in hardware (and connect to the parport) so do
work with their resolver to quadrature board.

Whilst other options exist, the 5i23 / 7i49 / 7i44 / 8i20 combination
is known to work, though is not inexpensive.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" ; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: 2015-01-30 14:09:39
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>>  I have Lafert motors and another make of what I am told are BLDC 
>>motors.
>>  No drives at the moment hence my search for relevant information.
>
>What current, voltage and feedback type are they?
>

196V @ 8.5A and looks like a resolver feedback. These are the Lafert.  
The others I have not seen yet.


>--
>atp
>If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

> I have Lafert motors and another make of what I am told are BLDC motors.
> No drives at the moment hence my search for relevant information.

What current, voltage and feedback type are they?

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" ; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: 2015-01-30 13:10:14
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>On 30 January 2015 at 10:40, Marius Liebenberg  
>wrote:
>>If the parport is not the best option, what would you suggest? One
>>  obviously is Mesa but are there others that you know of?
>
>I initially wrote the component to support the 7i39, and then extended
>it for the 8i20, so its main use is for Mesa hardware.
>The Pico hardware includes hardware signal converters, so I am not
>clear if there is much applicability of bldc to Pico.
>
>Thinking further, the parallel port is probably more suitable than I
>thought, as the bldccomp typically runs in the servo thread, so the
>parallel port is quite fast enough to read hall signals and update a
>PWM value. The only place where the p-port will fail is if you are
>using an encoder and software encoder counting. What motor/drive
>combination do you have?
>
I have Lafert motors and another make of what I am told are BLDC motors. 
No drives at the moment hence my search for relevant information. The 
budget on these are a bit low as I am fixing a machine and taking a 
machine to be fixed as payment. Both Routers with servos. No drives 
though.

>--
>atp
>If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

On 30 January 2015 at 10:40, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:
>   If the parport is not the best option, what would you suggest? One
> obviously is Mesa but are there others that you know of?

I initially wrote the component to support the 7i39, and then extended
it for the 8i20, so its main use is for Mesa hardware.
The Pico hardware includes hardware signal converters, so I am not
clear if there is much applicability of bldc to Pico.

Thinking further, the parallel port is probably more suitable than I
thought, as the bldccomp typically runs in the servo thread, so the
parallel port is quite fast enough to read hall signals and update a
PWM value. The only place where the p-port will fail is if you are
using an encoder and software encoder counting.  What motor/drive
combination do you have?

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

--
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

  If the parport is not the best option, what would you suggest? One 
obviously is Mesa but are there others that you know of?


-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" ; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: 2015-01-30 12:14:43
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

>On 30 January 2015 at 09:31, Marius Liebenberg  
>wrote:
>>  Will the parport be fast enough for this driver or does one need 
>>special
>>  hardware? If so, what is recommended?
>
>It is possible to use the parport. Someone has managed to spin some
>Fanuc motors with the Parport and AMC drives.
>http://youtu.be/l-MNy6-QanI
>
>I wouldn't recommend it, though.
>
>It's probably best to start with the motors and work backwards from
>there towards LinuxCNC.
>
>--
>atp
>If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


--
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Re: [Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[andy pugh]

On 30 January 2015 at 09:31, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:
> Will the parport be fast enough for this driver or does one need special
> hardware? If so, what is recommended?

It is possible to use the parport. Someone has managed to spin some
Fanuc motors with the Parport and AMC drives.
http://youtu.be/l-MNy6-QanI

I wouldn't recommend it, though.

It's probably best to start with the motors and work backwards from
there towards LinuxCNC.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

--
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
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[Emc-users] BLDC Hal component

[Marius Liebenberg]

Will the parport be fast enough for this driver or does one need special 
hardware? If so, what is recommended?



-
Regards / Groete

Marius D. Liebenberg
+27 82 698 3251
+27 12 746 6064
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