Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

Nothing wrong with asynchronous processing in control of machinery, as long as 
there are checks built in to ensure that events that must happen in a specific 
order cannot be executed out of order due to things like race conditions or 
operators inputting parameters and hitting the go button too fast. Atomic 
Energy Canada Limited found that out with the Therac 25.

On Wednesday, April 17, 2024 at 11:04:07 AM MDT, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
 wrote: 

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I've had to live with this on a machine that 
I'm using cascaded double PID loops on.  I have the velocity loop PIDs running 
in a fast floating point base thread to help with the tuning of some 
cantankerous torque mode servos.  The position loops are still in the servo 
thread (because I can't run the whole servo thread as fast as I can the 
floating point base thread.)  Reading/writing to the Mesa hardware in a faster 
loop than the servo thread seems to break the f-error disable for the encoder 
reset.  I think because the encoder reset doesn't always occur when the it is 
expecting it or something to that effect.  I've tried just running a faster 
servo-thread, but I can run the lighter floating point base thread about 4x 
faster than I can the whole servo-thread.


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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[gene heskett]

On 4/17/24 13:02, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I've had to live with this on a machine that 
I'm using cascaded double PID loops on.  I have the velocity loop PIDs running 
in a fast floating point base thread to help with the tuning of some 
cantankerous torque mode servos.  The position loops are still in the servo 
thread (because I can't run the whole servo thread as fast as I can the 
floating point base thread.)  Reading/writing to the Mesa hardware in a faster 
loop than the servo thread seems to break the f-error disable for the encoder 
reset.  I think because the encoder reset doesn't always occur when the it is 
expecting it or something to that effect.  I've tried just running a faster 
servo-thread, but I can run the lighter floating point base thread about 4x 
faster than I can the whole servo-thread.

This might be a place where the stepper/servo can be demonstrability 
better Todd. I am slowly converting my cnc stuff to run them. No OID's 
except the one in the controller itself. They do exactly what the TP 
tells them to do, and does it many times faster because the new 
controllers can use much higher voltages which jack up potential 
accelerations.


These new controllers adjust the motor current based on the error. So 
the motors run cool to downright cold, a saving you can see in the 
electric bill you pay monthly. If they run into something the current 
rises to whatever the PSU can supply, for one internal cycle. If that 
does not reduce the error, they shut the motor off and close the alm 
circuit. Wired into hal to do an e-stop they will shut down LCNC in the 
next servo-thread.


I now have 5 of them running in the garage, but have yet to encounter 
one of those sudden stops.  And none of them have a PID in the control 
path other that whats in the controller. I've parts on hand to convert 
the GO704's 3 main axis's, A already is. 2 more are running the Sheldon, 
and 2 are running Z and B on the 6040. They simply do not make mistakes.



Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[Peter Wallace]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2024, Todd Zuercher wrote:


Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 18:14:10 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
To: Peter Wallace ,
Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
Subject: RE: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

The machine is currently running Linuxcnc 2.7, but the Mesa cards, are 
significantly older, dating back to the Linuxcnc 2.5 era.


I'm not sure how comfortable a feel about updating this machine to current 
at the moment.  It is running 32-bit RTAI, and I'm not confident I'll be 
able to achieve the necessary latencies with the currently available 
mainstream 64-bit real time kernels required for the current version of 
Linuxcnc on the machine's current computer.


All of my actively running Linuxcnc machines are still on 2.7.  I am in the 
midst of a major overhaul of one machine that will be current version of 
Linuxcnc.  But I'm very hesitant to pull the other running machines out of 
production to upgrade until after I have more experience working with the 
newer versions.  (JA and the move to requiring 64-bit kernels were very big 
changes.)


Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031



Yeah, its not a firmware issue so the old cards should be fine,
but the driver fix is only in 2.9. Theres no specific reason the
(one line) fix could not be applied to 2.7/RTAI except I dont
have a build environment for that anymore.


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics
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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[Todd Zuercher via Emc-users]

The machine is currently running Linuxcnc 2.7, but the Mesa cards, are 
significantly older, dating back to the Linuxcnc 2.5 era.

I'm not sure how comfortable a feel about updating this machine to current at 
the moment.  It is running 32-bit RTAI, and I'm not confident I'll be able to 
achieve the necessary latencies with the currently available mainstream 64-bit 
real time kernels required for the current version of Linuxcnc on the machine's 
current computer.  

All of my actively running Linuxcnc machines are still on 2.7.  I am in the 
midst of a major overhaul of one machine that will be current version of 
Linuxcnc.  But I'm very hesitant to pull the other running machines out of 
production to upgrade until after I have more experience working with the newer 
versions.  (JA and the move to requiring 64-bit kernels were very big changes.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace  
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 1:09 PM
To: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
Cc: Todd Zuercher 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Wed, 17 Apr 2024, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:

> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 17:00:31 +
> From: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> 
> Cc: Todd Zuercher 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error
>
> Sorry to hijack the thread, but I've had to live with this on a machine that 
> I'm using cascaded double PID loops on.  I have the velocity loop PIDs 
> running in a fast floating point base thread to help with the tuning of some 
> cantankerous torque mode servos.  The position loops are still in the servo 
> thread (because I can't run the whole servo thread as fast as I can the 
> floating point base thread.)  Reading/writing to the Mesa hardware in a 
> faster loop than the servo thread seems to break the f-error disable for the 
> encoder reset.  I think because the encoder reset doesn't always occur when 
> the it is expecting it or something to that effect.  I've tried just running 
> a faster servo-thread, but I can run the lighter floating point base thread 
> about 4x faster than I can the whole servo-thread.
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

What LinuxCNC version?


There was a bug in the hostmot driver index handling that was fixed fairly 
recently (a couple of years ago)

>
> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 8:47 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 at 12:45, Tomaz T.  wrote:
>
> now it doesn't trigger following error any more (homing completes
>> successfully), interesting thing is, that on first attempt of homing 
>> after fresh starting LinuxCNC I see quite large spike on f-error when 
>> hitting index pulse, this large spike doesn't accrue on any more on 
>> second attempt of homing or later, only after fresh start and on first one.
>
>
>
> It will only trigger the f-error  if the difference between the current 
> encoder position and the zero position is larger than the f-error limit.
> Once you have homed once jump will be at most a few encoder counts.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for 
> the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
> - George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[Peter Wallace]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2024, Todd Zuercher via Emc-users wrote:


Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 17:00:31 +
From: Todd Zuercher via Emc-users 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Cc: Todd Zuercher 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I've had to live with this on a machine that 
I'm using cascaded double PID loops on.  I have the velocity loop PIDs running 
in a fast floating point base thread to help with the tuning of some 
cantankerous torque mode servos.  The position loops are still in the servo 
thread (because I can't run the whole servo thread as fast as I can the 
floating point base thread.)  Reading/writing to the Mesa hardware in a faster 
loop than the servo thread seems to break the f-error disable for the encoder 
reset.  I think because the encoder reset doesn't always occur when the it is 
expecting it or something to that effect.  I've tried just running a faster 
servo-thread, but I can run the lighter floating point base thread about 4x 
faster than I can the whole servo-thread.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


What LinuxCNC version?


There was a bug in the hostmot driver index handling that was fixed fairly 
recently (a couple of years ago)




-Original Message-
From: andy pugh 
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 8:47 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 at 12:45, Tomaz T.  wrote:

now it doesn't trigger following error any more (homing completes

successfully), interesting thing is, that on first attempt of homing
after fresh starting LinuxCNC I see quite large spike on f-error when
hitting index pulse, this large spike doesn't accrue on any more on
second attempt of homing or later, only after fresh start and on first one.




It will only trigger the f-error  if the difference between the current encoder 
position and the zero position is larger than the f-error limit.
Once you have homed once jump will be at most a few encoder counts.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the 
especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
- George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[Todd Zuercher via Emc-users]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I've had to live with this on a machine that 
I'm using cascaded double PID loops on.  I have the velocity loop PIDs running 
in a fast floating point base thread to help with the tuning of some 
cantankerous torque mode servos.  The position loops are still in the servo 
thread (because I can't run the whole servo thread as fast as I can the 
floating point base thread.)  Reading/writing to the Mesa hardware in a faster 
loop than the servo thread seems to break the f-error disable for the encoder 
reset.  I think because the encoder reset doesn't always occur when the it is 
expecting it or something to that effect.  I've tried just running a faster 
servo-thread, but I can run the lighter floating point base thread about 4x 
faster than I can the whole servo-thread.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: andy pugh 
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 8:47 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 at 12:45, Tomaz T.  wrote:

now it doesn't trigger following error any more (homing completes
> successfully), interesting thing is, that on first attempt of homing
> after fresh starting LinuxCNC I see quite large spike on f-error when
> hitting index pulse, this large spike doesn't accrue on any more on
> second attempt of homing or later, only after fresh start and on first one.



It will only trigger the f-error  if the difference between the current encoder 
position and the zero position is larger than the f-error limit.
Once you have homed once jump will be at most a few encoder counts.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for 
the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
- George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[gene heskett]

On 4/17/24 07:40, Tomaz T. wrote:

There is an arbitrarily large position jump when the index
pulse is detected.  The position counter is set from
whatever has accumulated during the home move to zero.  My
PPMC driver detects index_enable going from 1 to 0 and
suppresses any velocity on the next servo cycle.  It still
sometimes causes a following error on the next cycle, but
that is somewhat rare.  What version of LinuxCNC are you using?


Linuxcnc is 2.9.2


I'm a bit surprised by this as I have never seen this on a
stepper system before.  (I do see it rarely on my PPMC
analog servo machine.)  Rotary axes often have much lower
SCALE values than linear, I wonder if that has something to
do with the issue.


SCALE value in my case is 233.9181, due to reduction gear for increase output 
toque.
Stepper driver's microstepping is set to 2000puls/rev

10/1? Thats a bit coarse possibly making s slight error in SCALE big 
enough to trip. I use at least 16/1, but I have a speciail hal setup to 
calibrate SCALE that has worked well for nearly 2 decades now. basically 
a counter and two comparators, one set for 3, one set for 103. Zero the 
counter, start the axis and run for 110 or so complete revs, the counter 
is started on the 3rd index pulse, stopped on the 103rd pulse. Read the 
counter, divide by 100 and put that into the .ini file as that axises 
SCALE. Gives you a 1/100 degree accuracy.  The axis may have more 
backlash than that.  IMO that is good enough to hob gears.


My rotaries aren't big BS dividing head clones, but 3NM, 3phase 
stepper/servo nema23's driving an ebay 5/1 rvs30 sized worm, and I print 
work chucks for the job.  Wide open they can do 400+ revs in perfect, 
thread cutting sync with their primary axis. Much higher torque than any 
of the belt driven combo's they try to sell us.  Sitting idle, but 
capable of max torque, they don't heat the motors as the error controls 
the motor current, no error, low current. If it runs into something and 
cannot get to where it has been sent by the TP, hooking their alm sigbal 
into hal to do an e-stop stops LCNC in the next millisecond. Tested here 
till the cows come home, just one non-problem, its has yet to happen 
doing a job.  They do exactly as the TP tells them to do, no PID's needed.



I notice your stepgen is on axis # 0, but your encoder is on
axis # 4, which is on a different board than #0.  That seems
like an odd way to do things, but should work.


On my machine I have Universal PWM controller to run 4 DC servos, and additional USC 
controller to run 3 additional steppers with "integrated" encoders for rotary 
axis.

So, I added linksp Bindex => pid.4.index_enable
now it doesn't trigger following error any more (homing completes 
successfully), interesting thing is, that on first attempt of homing after 
fresh starting LinuxCNC I see quite large spike on f-error when hitting index 
pulse, this large spike doesn't accrue on any more on second attempt of homing 
or later, only after fresh start and on first one.

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--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 at 12:45, Tomaz T.  wrote:

now it doesn't trigger following error any more (homing completes
> successfully), interesting thing is, that on first attempt of homing after
> fresh starting LinuxCNC I see quite large spike on f-error when hitting
> index pulse, this large spike doesn't accrue on any more on second attempt
> of homing or later, only after fresh start and on first one.



It will only trigger the f-error  if the difference between the current
encoder position and the zero position is larger than the f-error limit.
Once you have homed once jump will be at most a few encoder counts.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[Tomaz T .]

>There is an arbitrarily large position jump when the index
>pulse is detected.  The position counter is set from
>whatever has accumulated during the home move to zero.  My
>PPMC driver detects index_enable going from 1 to 0 and
>suppresses any velocity on the next servo cycle.  It still
>sometimes causes a following error on the next cycle, but
>that is somewhat rare.  What version of LinuxCNC are you using?

Linuxcnc is 2.9.2

>I'm a bit surprised by this as I have never seen this on a
>stepper system before.  (I do see it rarely on my PPMC
>analog servo machine.)  Rotary axes often have much lower
>SCALE values than linear, I wonder if that has something to
>do with the issue.

SCALE value in my case is 233.9181, due to reduction gear for increase output 
toque.
Stepper driver's microstepping is set to 2000puls/rev

>I notice your stepgen is on axis # 0, but your encoder is on
>axis # 4, which is on a different board than #0.  That seems
>like an odd way to do things, but should work.

On my machine I have Universal PWM controller to run 4 DC servos, and 
additional USC controller to run 3 additional steppers with "integrated" 
encoders for rotary axis.

So, I added linksp Bindex => pid.4.index_enable
now it doesn't trigger following error any more (homing completes 
successfully), interesting thing is, that on first attempt of homing after 
fresh starting LinuxCNC I see quite large spike on f-error when hitting index 
pulse, this large spike doesn't accrue on any more on second attempt of homing 
or later, only after fresh start and on first one.

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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 at 11:10, Tomaz T.  wrote:

>
> linksp Bindex <= ppmc.0.encoder.04.index-enable
> linksp Bindex => axis.4.index-enable
>

You may need linksp (or net) Bindex=> pid.B.index-enable.

https://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/man/man9/pid.9.html#PINS


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[Tomaz T .]

> Is your PID also connected to index-enable (so that it can ignore the
> step-change in inputs)

Now it is done like this:

linksp Bindex <= ppmc.0.encoder.04.index-enable
linksp Bindex => axis.4.index-enable

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Re: [Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 at 10:27, Tomaz T.  wrote:

> What could be reason that home to index triggers following error


Is your PID also connected to index-enable (so that it can ignore the
step-change in inputs)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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[Emc-users] Home to index triggers following error

[Tomaz T .]

What could be reason that home to index triggers following error (rotary axis), 
as it is shown in HAL scope plot: 
https://i.ibb.co/FgN61cd/HOME-TO-INDEX-ERROR-1.jpg

[https://i.ibb.co/FgN61cd/HOME-TO-INDEX-ERROR-1.jpg]

INI:
HOME_OFFSET= 0
HOME_SEARCH_VEL= 0
HOME_LATCH_VEL = 2
HOME_USE_INDEX = YES
HOME_IGNORE_LIMITS = YES

HAL:
# connect position feedback signals to encoders
net Bpos-fb <= ppmc.0.encoder.04.position

# connect PID output signals to step generators
net Boutput => ppmc.0.stepgen.00.velocity

# connect axis enables to step generators
net Benable => ppmc.0.stepgen.00.enable


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