Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[claude]

It's mostly the same firmware on the full range (I use a lot of the DM422).

the protuner utilities work with all model (a bunch of different 
program, one per model)

The autotune (S4 dip switch) only tune current loop (PI), but most of my 
test showed way too aggressive tuning, making this unsuitable.



On 20.04.2016 19:42, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> Gene,
>
> I think he is referring to "Auto Tune" function that is activated by toggling 
> DIP switch #4
> (see the bottom of page 8)
> http://www.americanmotiontech.com/upload/Manuals/DM860m.pdf
>
> No, idea what it does or how. (no experience with these drives.)
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 April 2016 14:46:19 Dave Cole wrote:

> On 4/22/2016 2:02 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 22 April 2016 13:41:33 Todd Zuercher wrote:
> >> Oh well, worth a look.  Craigslist searches are nice that they are
> >> relatively local.  The down side, if your local isn't suited for
> >> the search you won't find much.
> >
> > Thats true, so I expanded my search earlier but misseed this one
> > because of the poor pix & lacking description details.  So I've sent
> > that poster an email for clarification.  We'll see what response I
> > get.
> >
> > Thanks Todd.
> >
> >> Around here there usually are a few decent
> >> things to look at.
> >> https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/hvo/5507436260.html
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> Wow!  Those are bad pictures!
>
> I think all of the latest Festo and SMC cylinders are oil free
> cylinders.   They require zero oil to function.
> I was skeptical of this when they first came out years ago, but they
> will run thousands and thousands of cycles with zero oil lube.
> I think that some if not most of the newer Bimba cylinders are oil
> free as well.
>
> For instance
> http://www.bimba.com/Products-and-Cad/Actuators/Inch/Round-Line/Non-Re
>pairable/Original-Line-Cylinder/
>
> I suppose if you use oil then it will wash out the grease.
>
> Dave
>
>
looks like Bimba doesn't want my business.  I used the menu to compose a 
3/4" cyclinder with a 16" stroke & asked for a quote on 2 of them.  The 
reply was generic boilerplate without any prices.  oh, well.

I did get the lathe back among the living this afternoon and made one 
more of the spring anchors.  In the process I was out of the gold 
colored chips for the turning tool so I installed one from a pack of 
Mitsubishi's I got after a very long shipping delay, from grizzly.  

Different edge shape and not 100% covered in the golden shaded coating, 
and it took a bit more push from the x motor to start cutting.  So I set 
it to take .025", at 700 revs and about 2.4 ipm.  It proceeded to peel 
off some of the longest, prettiest curly-que chips I've ever seem, coils 
about 3/32" in diameter and about 1/8" per turn and if I could keep it 
from getting tangled up, 10 foot long single chips were doable.  I have 
never had a carbide tool cut like that before. So I went -0.035" for the 
next cut.  Wash, rinse, repeat. -0.050 made the motor work a little 
harder, but it just kept going.  So I ought to be able to make the last 
2 tomorrow.  I have some steel formed angle to make the pulley supports 
from, but I've about a week to make the last 2 anchors before I'll have 
the motor to measure for the pulley support mounting.

The line powered driver is about a week behind the motor according to the 
shipping notices.

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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Dave Cole]

On 4/22/2016 2:02 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 22 April 2016 13:41:33 Todd Zuercher wrote:
>
>> Oh well, worth a look.  Craigslist searches are nice that they are
>> relatively local.  The down side, if your local isn't suited for the
>> search you won't find much.
> Thats true, so I expanded my search earlier but misseed this one because
> of the poor pix & lacking description details.  So I've sent that poster
> an email for clarification.  We'll see what response I get.
>
> Thanks Todd.
>
>> Around here there usually are a few decent
>> things to look at.
>> https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/hvo/5507436260.html
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

Wow!  Those are bad pictures!

I think all of the latest Festo and SMC cylinders are oil free 
cylinders.   They require zero oil to function.
I was skeptical of this when they first came out years ago, but they 
will run thousands and thousands of cycles with zero oil lube.
I think that some if not most of the newer Bimba cylinders are oil free 
as well.

For instance
http://www.bimba.com/Products-and-Cad/Actuators/Inch/Round-Line/Non-Repairable/Original-Line-Cylinder/

I suppose if you use oil then it will wash out the grease.

Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 April 2016 13:41:33 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> Oh well, worth a look.  Craigslist searches are nice that they are
> relatively local.  The down side, if your local isn't suited for the
> search you won't find much.

Thats true, so I expanded my search earlier but misseed this one because 
of the poor pix & lacking description details.  So I've sent that poster 
an email for clarification.  We'll see what response I get.

Thanks Todd.

> Around here there usually are a few decent 
> things to look at.
> https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/hvo/5507436260.html

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Todd Zuercher]

Oh well, worth a look.  Craigslist searches are nice that they are relatively 
local.  The down side, if your local isn't suited for the search you won't find 
much.
Around here there usually are a few decent things to look at.
https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/hvo/5507436260.html


- Original Message -
From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 1:20:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

BTW, craigslist bombed on a lathe search, $2000 for a South Bend 14x30 
that had to be at least 80 years old, huge motor on a carraige 2 feet 
above the spindle shaft, and an almost skeletal looking headstock and 
bed.  Probably babbit spindle bearings to boot.  Nope.  Theres a 100+ yo 
Porter right here in town, 16x72 or such, sitting out in the weather for 
at least 3 years that I know of. Babbit bearings with a need for about 
1/8 inch in shim washers to take up the end play. Motor apparently 
failed and thrown away (or sold) at some point in the dustbin of 
history. $500.  He says the scrap iron is worth that but if so, why 
hasn't he recycled it? But while it all still moves, just the screws to 
ball screw it would probably be north of $1500.  And its as much too big 
for me as this 7x12 is too small.

> Dave

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 April 2016 11:59:09 Dave Cole wrote:

> On 4/21/2016 10:05 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 21 April 2016 18:59:36 andy pugh wrote:
> >> On 21 April 2016 at 23:45, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >>> Are there such beasts available, perhaps in a .750" or 20mm bore?
> >>> What I've found didn't have the stroke.
> >>
> >> Bicycle pump? :-)
> >
> > I haven't seen one of those in 50 years on this side of the pond. :(
> > I assume you are refering to the pumps that used to live in clips on
> > one of the connector pipes from the crank hub to the steering head?
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> I think that Harbor Freight may still sell them.   The frame mounted
> pumps are still available.

I'll tyake a look, thanks.

> Ebay is  a great source for Bimba type cylinders as well.   Some of
> them have very low drag pistons.
> They would make great balance cylinders if you have a big enough
> pipe/hose connecting the cylinder to the reservoir.

I have explored that mentally, and came to the conclusion that the air 
moveing back and forth would need to be passed thru a pressurized 
reservoir so that it had to bubble thru the oil at least when it was 
returning to the cylinder in order to carry an occasional drop of oil 
mist to the cylinder.  But I am not convinced that could be achieved 
without some reed valve contraptions to do the steering.  It certainly 
would seem to be something to investigate, particularly after the first 
cyclinder failed from an adequate level of lubrication.  The gas springs 
would seem to be usable, until the restrictions on the rapids are 
concerned.  That, and in a constant motion situation as opposed to just 
getting the grocery's out of the car a couple times week would certainly 
expose the failure mechanisms, which in my experience is a gradual loss 
of pressure I surmise is deteriorated sealing ballons in those things.

> Don't overlook the regular air cylinders also, particularly the oil
> free ones that SMC and Festo sell.

Two more search terms to add to the google/fleabay searches, thanks.

One of the things that is pushing me toward the springs is that they are 
under tension and will essentially maintain a straight line between the 
upper idler pulley's & back down to the anchor points.  The pressure 
cylinders OTOH are always pushing, subjected by bumping to micro bends 
that would destroy them over the longer haul just as its a failure 
mechanism in those used as lid lifters in the auto industry.

The variability of the springs should not be a huge problem if they are 
operating in the stretch length range that assures they are still well 
stretched at their minimum length in service. As long as the maxumum 
length in service does not exceed the maximum length the spring can be 
pulled out to without a permanent stetching. I have been pleasantly 
surprised by how far the common screen door spring can be stretched. I 
have exceeded 4 feet without apparent damage.  So I would have I think a 
decent amount of support starting from an anchor on the back wall of the 
base cabinet, up over a couple of pulleys on brackets on the top of the 
motor and back down to a spot on the lower end of the carriage slider.  
One on each side in this case.  With the $5 pulleys flanges only being 
3/8" wide at the outer edges of the flanges, if I have to move to bigger 
springs, it would make sense to make some catcher pieces to prevent a 
spring from rolling off that narrow a flange.

The thought also crossed my mind to see if I could chuck the pulley 
somehow, and with a ball bearing in the toolpost, roll that flange wider 
to reduce that potential for a whap in the face. :)

But first I have to see if I can get this 7x12 back into serviceable 
condition since the chatter that broke the carbide chips also unscrewed 
the home made housing over the motor, which itself contains all the 
motor driver stuffs.  I think I will be forced to drill & tap more holes 
in the back edge of the bed under the headstock, 2 weren't enough.

BTW, craigslist bombed on a lathe search, $2000 for a South Bend 14x30 
that had to be at least 80 years old, huge motor on a carraige 2 feet 
above the spindle shaft, and an almost skeletal looking headstock and 
bed.  Probably babbit spindle bearings to boot.  Nope.  Theres a 100+ yo 
Porter right here in town, 16x72 or such, sitting out in the weather for 
at least 3 years that I know of. Babbit bearings with a need for about 
1/8 inch in shim washers to take up the end play. Motor apparently 
failed and thrown away (or sold) at some point in the dustbin of 
history. $500.  He says the scrap iron is worth that but if so, why 
hasn't he recycled it? But while it all still moves, just the screws to 
ball screw it would probably be north of $1500.  And its as much too big 
for me as this 7x12 is too small.

> Dave

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that 

Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Dave Cole]

On 4/21/2016 10:05 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 21 April 2016 18:59:36 andy pugh wrote:
>
>> On 21 April 2016 at 23:45, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>> Are there such beasts available, perhaps in a .750" or 20mm bore?
>>> What I've found didn't have the stroke.
>> Bicycle pump? :-)
> I haven't seen one of those in 50 years on this side of the pond. :(
> I assume you are refering to the pumps that used to live in clips on one
> of the connector pipes from the crank hub to the steering head?
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

I think that Harbor Freight may still sell them.   The frame mounted 
pumps are still available.
Ebay is  a great source for Bimba type cylinders as well.   Some of them 
have very low drag pistons.
They would make great balance cylinders if you have a big enough 
pipe/hose connecting the cylinder to the reservoir.
Don't overlook the regular air cylinders also, particularly the oil free 
ones that SMC and Festo sell.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Todd Zuercher]

Air cylinders can be had for much cheaper off ebay.  The Mcmaster link was more 
for showing what's avalible.

I'd be concerned about a bycycle pumps seals holding up over time, especially 
if pressures exceed 70-80 psi.

Cheap used iron often can be found easier off of Craigslist than fleabay.

- Original Message -
From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 5:32:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

On Thursday 21 April 2016 23:29:21 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> What length stroke do you need? McMasterCarr has 3/4" cylinders in
> lengths up to 24".  (1-1/16" up to 36")
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-air-cylinders/=12348ld

Those prices aren't friendly enough though. I can rig springs for half 
that.  But its looking like I'll have to make the springs anchors on the 
mill as I've pretty much had it with this 7x12, the rear gib strips 
vibrated loose yesterday and chomped up about $30 worth of carbide 
inserts from the chatter just making one of the 4 I needed last 
afternoon.

I am in the market for a bigger, more iron in its ass lathe, but 
fleabay's lathe selections are in a high vacuum suckage state when I 
searched last night.  One boxter? and one Monarch about covered what was 
available for under $1500.  From the pix, neither had been taken care of 
and were missing parts. Quite a bit of new stuff, all priced higher than 
I could get it from Bolton or grizzly.  Something in the 10x30 range I 
can convert might be attractive. Both of those 2 are within a long days 
drive from me, but neither adv listed the weight. And I know monarchs 
are at least capable of putting my GMC down on its snubbers.

> - Original Message -
> From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 6:45:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers
>
> On Thursday 21 April 2016 11:32:25 andy pugh wrote:
> > On 21 April 2016 at 16:17, Brent Loschen <brent.losc...@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
> > > I'm curious if anyone has compared moving mass (pulley/cable/mass)
> > > vs springs for counter weighting a G0704.  Other than ease of
> > > implementation, space requirements, etc., any real world
> > > advantages/disadvantages of either?
> >
> > A spring will only have the right force in one spot, it will be too
> > high or too low everywhere else.
> > A pulley and weight can be exactly balanced at all times. But
> > doubles the mass to be moved, so actually reduces peak acceleration.
> >
> > The ideal is probably a pneumatic strut with a relieving regulator.
>
> That isn't something we can steal off the tailgate of a
> mopar/mitsubishi van for a $30 bill apiece.  I also thought of that
> but with a 1 or 2 lb propane tank to serve as the expansion chamber. 
> That would not, except for the piston friction, have a huge effect on
> the accels or maxvels. Piston friction could be considerable though.
>
> Are there such beasts available, perhaps in a .750" or 20mm bore? 
> What I've found didn't have the stroke.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 April 2016 05:29:08 andy pugh wrote:

> On 22 April 2016 at 03:05, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> Bicycle pump? :-)
> >
> > I haven't seen one of those in 50 years on this side of the pond.
>
> I assume that they still exist, unless the US has switched back to
> solid rubber tyres.
>
> A track pump would work:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/262396658868
>
> But when real pneumatic cylinders are so cheap, why bother?
> eBay has many. Rodless might fit the envelope more easily.
> But: My mill has a big moving knee, has no counterbalance, and works
> just fine. I suspect you just need a better match between spindle
> speed and Z speed.

And thats been shipped.  Motor and line powered driver.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 21 April 2016 23:29:21 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> What length stroke do you need? McMasterCarr has 3/4" cylinders in
> lengths up to 24".  (1-1/16" up to 36")
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-air-cylinders/=12348ld

Those prices aren't friendly enough though. I can rig springs for half 
that.  But its looking like I'll have to make the springs anchors on the 
mill as I've pretty much had it with this 7x12, the rear gib strips 
vibrated loose yesterday and chomped up about $30 worth of carbide 
inserts from the chatter just making one of the 4 I needed last 
afternoon.

I am in the market for a bigger, more iron in its ass lathe, but 
fleabay's lathe selections are in a high vacuum suckage state when I 
searched last night.  One boxter? and one Monarch about covered what was 
available for under $1500.  From the pix, neither had been taken care of 
and were missing parts. Quite a bit of new stuff, all priced higher than 
I could get it from Bolton or grizzly.  Something in the 10x30 range I 
can convert might be attractive. Both of those 2 are within a long days 
drive from me, but neither adv listed the weight. And I know monarchs 
are at least capable of putting my GMC down on its snubbers.

> - Original Message -
> From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 6:45:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers
>
> On Thursday 21 April 2016 11:32:25 andy pugh wrote:
> > On 21 April 2016 at 16:17, Brent Loschen <brent.losc...@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
> > > I'm curious if anyone has compared moving mass (pulley/cable/mass)
> > > vs springs for counter weighting a G0704.  Other than ease of
> > > implementation, space requirements, etc., any real world
> > > advantages/disadvantages of either?
> >
> > A spring will only have the right force in one spot, it will be too
> > high or too low everywhere else.
> > A pulley and weight can be exactly balanced at all times. But
> > doubles the mass to be moved, so actually reduces peak acceleration.
> >
> > The ideal is probably a pneumatic strut with a relieving regulator.
>
> That isn't something we can steal off the tailgate of a
> mopar/mitsubishi van for a $30 bill apiece.  I also thought of that
> but with a 1 or 2 lb propane tank to serve as the expansion chamber. 
> That would not, except for the piston friction, have a huge effect on
> the accels or maxvels. Piston friction could be considerable though.
>
> Are there such beasts available, perhaps in a .750" or 20mm bore? 
> What I've found didn't have the stroke.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[andy pugh]

On 22 April 2016 at 03:05, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> Bicycle pump? :-)
>
> I haven't seen one of those in 50 years on this side of the pond.

I assume that they still exist, unless the US has switched back to
solid rubber tyres.

A track pump would work:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262396658868

But when real pneumatic cylinders are so cheap, why bother?
eBay has many. Rodless might fit the envelope more easily.
But: My mill has a big moving knee, has no counterbalance, and works
just fine. I suspect you just need a better match between spindle
speed and Z speed.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Todd Zuercher]

What length stroke do you need? McMasterCarr has 3/4" cylinders in lengths up 
to 24".  (1-1/16" up to 36")
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-air-cylinders/=12348ld


- Original Message -
From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 6:45:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

On Thursday 21 April 2016 11:32:25 andy pugh wrote:

> On 21 April 2016 at 16:17, Brent Loschen <brent.losc...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
> > I'm curious if anyone has compared moving mass (pulley/cable/mass)
> > vs springs for counter weighting a G0704.  Other than ease of
> > implementation, space requirements, etc., any real world
> > advantages/disadvantages of either?
>
> A spring will only have the right force in one spot, it will be too
> high or too low everywhere else.
> A pulley and weight can be exactly balanced at all times. But doubles
> the mass to be moved, so actually reduces peak acceleration.
>
> The ideal is probably a pneumatic strut with a relieving regulator.

That isn't something we can steal off the tailgate of a mopar/mitsubishi 
van for a $30 bill apiece.  I also thought of that but with a 1 or 2 lb 
propane tank to serve as the expansion chamber.  That would not, except 
for the piston friction, have a huge effect on the accels or maxvels.  
Piston friction could be considerable though.

Are there such beasts available, perhaps in a .750" or 20mm bore?  What 
I've found didn't have the stroke.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[groups]

That pipe is commonly known as the down tube. :)

It runs from the bottom bracket to the bottom of the head tube.

The others tubes are called;
Head tube, it holds the head set for the steerer tube
Seat tube, runs down from the seat post to the bottom bracket
Top tube, runs horizontally between the head tube and the top of the 
seat tube
seat stays, run from the rear dropout (hold the axle) to the top of the 
seat tube
Rear stays, run from the rear dropout (hold the axle) to the bottom 
bracket

I used to fit the pump so it sat alongside the left seat stay running 
from the rear axle to the top of the seat tube. If you got the right 
size pump it would wedge in nicely with out any clips.

Cheers,

Peter


On 2016-04-22 12:05, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 21 April 2016 18:59:36 andy pugh wrote:
> 
>> On 21 April 2016 at 23:45, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> > Are there such beasts available, perhaps in a .750" or 20mm bore?
>> > What I've found didn't have the stroke.
>> 
>> Bicycle pump? :-)
> 
> I haven't seen one of those in 50 years on this side of the pond. :(
> I assume you are refering to the pumps that used to live in clips on 
> one
> of the connector pipes from the crank hub to the steering head?
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
> 
> --
> Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications 
> Manager
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> your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly 
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> reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 21 April 2016 18:59:36 andy pugh wrote:

> On 21 April 2016 at 23:45, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Are there such beasts available, perhaps in a .750" or 20mm bore? 
> > What I've found didn't have the stroke.
>
> Bicycle pump? :-)

I haven't seen one of those in 50 years on this side of the pond. :(
I assume you are refering to the pumps that used to live in clips on one 
of the connector pipes from the crank hub to the steering head?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Jim Craig]

On 4/21/2016 5:59 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 21 April 2016 at 23:45, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> Are there such beasts available, perhaps in a .750" or 20mm bore?  What
>> I've found didn't have the stroke.
> Bicycle pump? :-)
>
Bimba air cylinder 3/4" diameter double acting can have up to 32" stroke

http://catalogs.jhf.com/app.php?RelId=6.6.3.2.2=phe13flx=55

see the model on the page 04-[ ]-DP

Jim

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[andy pugh]

On 21 April 2016 at 23:45, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Are there such beasts available, perhaps in a .750" or 20mm bore?  What
> I've found didn't have the stroke.

Bicycle pump? :-)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 21 April 2016 11:32:25 andy pugh wrote:

> On 21 April 2016 at 16:17, Brent Loschen  
wrote:
> > I'm curious if anyone has compared moving mass (pulley/cable/mass)
> > vs springs for counter weighting a G0704.  Other than ease of
> > implementation, space requirements, etc., any real world
> > advantages/disadvantages of either?
>
> A spring will only have the right force in one spot, it will be too
> high or too low everywhere else.
> A pulley and weight can be exactly balanced at all times. But doubles
> the mass to be moved, so actually reduces peak acceleration.
>
> The ideal is probably a pneumatic strut with a relieving regulator.

That isn't something we can steal off the tailgate of a mopar/mitsubishi 
van for a $30 bill apiece.  I also thought of that but with a 1 or 2 lb 
propane tank to serve as the expansion chamber.  That would not, except 
for the piston friction, have a huge effect on the accels or maxvels.  
Piston friction could be considerable though.

Are there such beasts available, perhaps in a .750" or 20mm bore?  What 
I've found didn't have the stroke.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 21 April 2016 11:17:05 Brent Loschen wrote:

> On 4/21/2016 7:09 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 21 April 2016 04:04:16 Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> >> Belt drive from the stepper? If there's enough metal in the pulley,
> >> drill and tap three holes into the face then get six flanged rubber
> >> bushings. Mill out a circle of metal with three holes. Put bushings
> >> in holes, bolts through bushings. Screw to pulley. Hooray! A
> >> damper. :)
> >
> > Chuckle.  Sounds workable Gregg, but its only a 17 tooth pulley in
> > quite close proximity to the 42 toother driving the nut, so
> > figuratively speaking, no room to swing that cat.  Besides its a
> > double shaft motor, and it does have a spool of 1.75" fender washers
> > with elastomer washers stacked about 2.25" high on the upper end of
> > the motor shaft.  See best view of it at the sig's link +
> > emc/36.html.  But thats not the same motor, that 252 was pulled and
> > a 432 put in its place later.  It shows the whole new Z drive before
> > it was installed on that toy.  Back up to about 29.html to see it
> > installed.  Those dampers work very well, took the motor stall from
> > about 9 ipm to around 34 ipm if everything is right. But the psu is
> > only 28 volts, and I have a new 44 volter ready to go in at the same
> > time as I put a 5i25 into that system.  Even with software stepping,
> > I have carved a boat load of stuff on that little mill.
> >
> > But there is very little insulation in that building, so I only keep
> > enough wintertime heat in it to keep it above the dew point so its
> > off limits to this old diabetic for long enough to setup and do a
> > job in cold weather.  I'll also need to round up a 5 volt wall wart
> > to run the rest of the logic in that mills electronics box when I
> > make the psu switch as the 28 volter has a 5 volt output its all
> > running on now. I probably have a suitable one of those as I never
> > throw out the wall warts even if the rest of the kit has died & been
> > thrown out.
> >
> > But it looks like I'll need to chew up some 1/2" stock in the lathe,
> > making anchors from the screen door springs that will do some
> > counter weighting on the G0704. A 6mm Allen head cap screw with a
> > 20mm long spacer, and a 1/8" deep and wide groove should make it a
> > pull out the spring and drop the loop over it anchor point.  Easy to
> > change springs if I should stumble over some wound from a larger
> > wire.  These, at .052" are a bit lighter than I'd like, but they
> > should help.
>
> McMaster has a nice selection of 3' long springs of various OD's, wire
> diameters, and spring rates.  They seem reasonably priced (~$5-$10) in
> sizes likely used for this type of application -
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#extension-springs/=122u4yj.
>
> I'm curious if anyone has compared moving mass (pulley/cable/mass) vs
> springs for counter weighting a G0704.  Other than ease of
> implementation, space requirements, etc., any real world
> advantages/disadvantages of either?  ie Z axis repeatability? Any
> thoughts on the "right" amount of counterweight?  1/2 the head weight,
> more/less?
>
I don't know as there is an optimum  although as a rule I try to hit a balance 
so the motor has nearly the same work when moving in either direction.  But I 
can see an argument for leaving it a bit light, as in more pull up than weight 
down thereby making z always run to the upside of its backlash.  If cutting 
forces lift it when the weight is greater, then you have a variable penetration 
possibility.  That doesn't exist if the springs are stronger than the weight as 
all the backlash is taken up by the springs.

As for mass v acceleration, the springs are generally less than 1 or 2% of the 
mass, and to me is just noise, making virtually zero difference in the motion 
and rate atainable.

I also, after some thought, tossed out the gas spring idea unless the motion 
damping can be removed.  That will adversely effect the rapids.

Thanks Brent.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> On 21 April 2016 at 16:17, Brent Loschen  wrote:
> > I'm curious if anyone has compared moving mass (pulley/cable/mass) vs
> > springs for counter weighting a G0704.  Other than ease of
> > implementation, space requirements, etc., any real world
> > advantages/disadvantages of either?
> 
> A spring will only have the right force in one spot, it will be too
> high or too low everywhere else.
> A pulley and weight can be exactly balanced at all times. But doubles
> the mass to be moved, so actually reduces peak acceleration.
> 
> The ideal is probably a pneumatic strut with a relieving regulator.

Close to ideal might be good enough.

For z-axis and machining I guess force needed "downwards" could be higher while 
moving upwards then drilling done should be done fast. It is not obvious which 
is best.

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Todd Zuercher]

Personally I prefer an air cylinder(s) as a counter balance. It applies a 
constant force regardless of position, and doesn't add a lot of mass to the 
system.  Plus with a regulator is easily adjustable to what ever weight needs 
balanced.  

I like to adjust the counter balanced to what ever minimizes the force required 
to turn the screw in either direction.  This is usually takes a force about 
equal to the mass to be balanced.

- Original Message -
From: "Brent Loschen" <brent.losc...@gmail.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 11:17:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

McMaster has a nice selection of 3' long springs of various OD's, wire 
diameters, and spring rates.  They seem reasonably priced (~$5-$10) in 
sizes likely used for this type of application - 
http://www.mcmaster.com/#extension-springs/=122u4yj.

I'm curious if anyone has compared moving mass (pulley/cable/mass) vs 
springs for counter weighting a G0704.  Other than ease of 
implementation, space requirements, etc., any real world 
advantages/disadvantages of either?  ie Z axis repeatability? Any 
thoughts on the "right" amount of counterweight?  1/2 the head weight, 
more/less?


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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[andy pugh]

On 21 April 2016 at 16:17, Brent Loschen  wrote:
> I'm curious if anyone has compared moving mass (pulley/cable/mass) vs
> springs for counter weighting a G0704.  Other than ease of
> implementation, space requirements, etc., any real world
> advantages/disadvantages of either?

A spring will only have the right force in one spot, it will be too
high or too low everywhere else.
A pulley and weight can be exactly balanced at all times. But doubles
the mass to be moved, so actually reduces peak acceleration.

The ideal is probably a pneumatic strut with a relieving regulator.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

--
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Brent Loschen]

On 4/21/2016 7:09 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 21 April 2016 04:04:16 Gregg Eshelman wrote:
>
>> Belt drive from the stepper? If there's enough metal in the pulley,
>> drill and tap three holes into the face then get six flanged rubber
>> bushings. Mill out a circle of metal with three holes. Put bushings in
>> holes, bolts through bushings. Screw to pulley. Hooray! A damper. :)
>>
> Chuckle.  Sounds workable Gregg, but its only a 17 tooth pulley in quite
> close proximity to the 42 toother driving the nut, so figuratively
> speaking, no room to swing that cat.  Besides its a double shaft motor,
> and it does have a spool of 1.75" fender washers with elastomer washers
> stacked about 2.25" high on the upper end of the motor shaft.  See best
> view of it at the sig's link + emc/36.html.  But thats not the same
> motor, that 252 was pulled and a 432 put in its place later.  It shows
> the whole new Z drive before it was installed on that toy.  Back up to
> about 29.html to see it installed.  Those dampers work very well, took
> the motor stall from about 9 ipm to around 34 ipm if everything is
> right. But the psu is only 28 volts, and I have a new 44 volter ready to
> go in at the same time as I put a 5i25 into that system.  Even with
> software stepping, I have carved a boat load of stuff on that little
> mill.
>
> But there is very little insulation in that building, so I only keep
> enough wintertime heat in it to keep it above the dew point so its off
> limits to this old diabetic for long enough to setup and do a job in
> cold weather.  I'll also need to round up a 5 volt wall wart to run the
> rest of the logic in that mills electronics box when I make the psu
> switch as the 28 volter has a 5 volt output its all running on now.
> I probably have a suitable one of those as I never throw out the wall
> warts even if the rest of the kit has died & been thrown out.
>
> But it looks like I'll need to chew up some 1/2" stock in the lathe,
> making anchors from the screen door springs that will do some counter
> weighting on the G0704. A 6mm Allen head cap screw with a 20mm long
> spacer, and a 1/8" deep and wide groove should make it a pull out the
> spring and drop the loop over it anchor point.  Easy to change springs
> if I should stumble over some wound from a larger wire.  These, at .052"
> are a bit lighter than I'd like, but they should help.
McMaster has a nice selection of 3' long springs of various OD's, wire 
diameters, and spring rates.  They seem reasonably priced (~$5-$10) in 
sizes likely used for this type of application - 
http://www.mcmaster.com/#extension-springs/=122u4yj.

I'm curious if anyone has compared moving mass (pulley/cable/mass) vs 
springs for counter weighting a G0704.  Other than ease of 
implementation, space requirements, etc., any real world 
advantages/disadvantages of either?  ie Z axis repeatability? Any 
thoughts on the "right" amount of counterweight?  1/2 the head weight, 
more/less?


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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 21 April 2016 04:04:16 Gregg Eshelman wrote:

> Belt drive from the stepper? If there's enough metal in the pulley,
> drill and tap three holes into the face then get six flanged rubber
> bushings. Mill out a circle of metal with three holes. Put bushings in
> holes, bolts through bushings. Screw to pulley. Hooray! A damper. :)
>
Chuckle.  Sounds workable Gregg, but its only a 17 tooth pulley in quite 
close proximity to the 42 toother driving the nut, so figuratively 
speaking, no room to swing that cat.  Besides its a double shaft motor, 
and it does have a spool of 1.75" fender washers with elastomer washers 
stacked about 2.25" high on the upper end of the motor shaft.  See best 
view of it at the sig's link + emc/36.html.  But thats not the same 
motor, that 252 was pulled and a 432 put in its place later.  It shows 
the whole new Z drive before it was installed on that toy.  Back up to 
about 29.html to see it installed.  Those dampers work very well, took 
the motor stall from about 9 ipm to around 34 ipm if everything is 
right. But the psu is only 28 volts, and I have a new 44 volter ready to 
go in at the same time as I put a 5i25 into that system.  Even with 
software stepping, I have carved a boat load of stuff on that little 
mill.

But there is very little insulation in that building, so I only keep 
enough wintertime heat in it to keep it above the dew point so its off 
limits to this old diabetic for long enough to setup and do a job in 
cold weather.  I'll also need to round up a 5 volt wall wart to run the 
rest of the logic in that mills electronics box when I make the psu 
switch as the 28 volter has a 5 volt output its all running on now.
I probably have a suitable one of those as I never throw out the wall 
warts even if the rest of the kit has died & been thrown out.

But it looks like I'll need to chew up some 1/2" stock in the lathe, 
making anchors from the screen door springs that will do some counter 
weighting on the G0704. A 6mm Allen head cap screw with a 20mm long 
spacer, and a 1/8" deep and wide groove should make it a pull out the 
spring and drop the loop over it anchor point.  Easy to change springs 
if I should stumble over some wound from a larger wire.  These, at .052" 
are a bit lighter than I'd like, but they should help.

All this stuff does a good job of keeping me out of the bars. ;-)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gregg Eshelman]

Belt drive from the stepper? If there's enough metal in the pulley, drill and 
tap three holes into the face then get six flanged rubber bushings. Mill out a 
circle of metal with three holes. Put bushings in holes, bolts through 
bushings. Screw to pulley.
Hooray! A damper. :)


 
  From: Gene Heskett <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 5:19 AM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers
   
On Wednesday 20 April 2016 05:23:22 Sarah Armstrong wrote:

> simply drop the high microstepping , you dont need it , high
> microstepping = missing steps , and decreaced Torque
> Microstepping should only really be used for removing resonance .
>
In my playing with the 2m542's and 400+ oz/in nema 23's, 4 is noisy, 8 is 
much quieter and 16 is very quiet. I can go back to 8 on this just to 
test.  At 8 I can hear it even at 1 rps.  Single shaft motors, so I 
can't put dampers on any of these.  Darn it.  Dampers on the toy mill, 
and on the lathes z are a huge help, tripling the rapids capability.

   
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Peter Homann]

Hi,

One of the advantages of Geckodrives over other drives is that they morph from 
microstepping to full stepping after the speed gets above a
  a few RPS.

That way, at low speed you get very smooth motion, and at high speed the=re is 
no torque lose due to microstepping.

BTW, microstepping does not combat resonance, specific functionality in the 
stepper drive is need to address it which all Geckodrives have.

Cheers,

Peter

On 20-Apr-16 9:38 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> Is that a Leadshine drive? I thought they were pretty good. I do like my
> G203V's they run smooth and fast.
>
> http://www.geckodrive.com/geckodrive-step-motor-drives/g203v.html
>
> JT
>
> On 4/19/2016 11:33 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Greetings;
>>
>> One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive at
>> various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it moves dead
>> silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the table, exactly as if
>> is was being full stepped, and it doesn't become at all smooth again
>> until its moving the head at 25 ipm or more, then stalls at just under
>> 48 ipm.
>>
>> 2 related questions then;
>>
>> This is a DM860 drive.  It it known to drop the microstepping at an
>> unusually low rps?
>>
>> I'm looking at the DQ2722MA, 110-220VAC, 7.0A, 200 Microstep, driver/psu
>> combined, which is 110-250 volt AC powered, which would remove the 350
>> watter doing that job now, but its close to $185 in a box on my front
>> deck. So by the time I get the 906 oz motor Greg B. recommends, and hang
>> some counterweighting springs on this thing I'll have close to $300 USD
>> in solving this problem once and for all.
>>
>> What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
>>
>> Thank you all.
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 20 April 2016 11:40:44 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 04/20/2016 06:04 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Halscope shows a very small amplitude ripple, perhaps 5%
> > of the instant output at pid.z.output
>
> Look at PID..error, it will magnify the deviation.
> Although, I guess, if the PID output is only varying by 5%,
> then the step rate should not be varying more than that.
> That shouldn't be the cause of loss of sync of the motor.

Its not losing sync unless it throws the following error, and halscope if 
I catch it right, show a huge ringing as it errors, when it ran 
perfectly on the previous peck with no ringing.  It may occasionally be 
triggered by the .0008" backlash offset application shortly after it 
crosses the zero velocity mark, but far more likely will occur at the 
end of the g33.1 invocation after its unlocked, and the spindle is 
returned to fwd, while the z is being run back down to starting point. 
That motion is only restricted in delta v by the ini files max_accel 
setting.  And faster accel's seem to reduce it, most of the time.

Now, I have got to boogie and take care of some honeydo's involving 
replacing a single tub laundry sink with a double tub, and giving a 
dehumidifier that has been draining into that sink staining it to beat 
the band (its a $#@^&*$ plastic casting that weighs about 5 lbs) and 
needs lagged to the wall to keep it from busting its drain plumbing 
loose, getting a drain connector assembly that will let me drain the 
dehumidifier like is was a garbage disposal, in addition to acquiring 
some garage door cable pulleys and a long spring assortment and some 
metal to make pulley holders from.  Springs to be screen door and 
bigger. I may have to goto the lathe and make me some anchor knobs to 
hook the eyes of the springs up for easy changing, until I hit the 
balance point where it stalls at the same speed going both ways.

Later folks.

Thanks Jon

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:

> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:13:38 -0400
> From: Gene Heskett <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers
> 
> On Wednesday 20 April 2016 11:36:58 Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> On 04/20/2016 03:20 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
>>>> Greetings;
>>>>
>>>> One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive
>>>> at various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it
>>>> moves dead silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the
>>>> table, exactly as if is was being full stepped, and it doesn't
>>>> become at all smooth again until its moving the head at 25 ipm or
>>>> more, then stalls at just under 48 ipm.
>>>> ...
>>>> What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
>>>
>>> I would guess resonance or step signal have to toggle between two
>>> different frequencies but have no experience. An oscilloscope would
>>> tell if there are problems with the step signal. I can also tell if
>>> stepper driver behave as expected.
>>
>> You can also hook up an old PC speaker with a 150 Ohm
>> resistor in series to the step signal and listen to it.  The
>> ear has a great system for picking out multiple
>> frequencies.  Since my (Pico Systems) stepper board is
>> essentially a servo, where the computer sends a velocity,
>> step pulses are counted as if they were coming from an
>> encoder, and then run through the PID hal component, bad PID
>> parameters can cause nasty frequency hopping at certain
>> speeds.  So, I listen to it and twiddle until I get smooth
>> tones that sound like turning the dial on an audio
>> oscillator.  (You can also do this with Halscope.)
>>
>> Jon
>
> For software stepping, halscope is neat, but the 5i25 does not expose the
> step/dir signals for halscope perusal so a real scope or better yet the
> speaker is needed for this.  And its an idea I hadn't thought of to try,
> thanks Jon.  The ear is a fantastic device for hearing odd sounds that
> aren't supposed to be there!  The eyes are overloaded trying to analyse
> a moving target.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Not quite true, you can look at the step/dir signals with halscope (by 
looking ta the assosciated GPIO input pins), but you will not see much
on the step signal unless you have a very wide step pulse width
(or quadrature mode)

If you think there is step generator misbehaviour, the best way to check is 
via the following error, its not difficult to get the error less than a
very small fraction of a step (say 1/100) with proper tuning.

>
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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 20 April 2016 11:36:58 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 04/20/2016 03:20 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> >> Greetings;
> >>
> >> One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive
> >> at various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it
> >> moves dead silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the
> >> table, exactly as if is was being full stepped, and it doesn't
> >> become at all smooth again until its moving the head at 25 ipm or
> >> more, then stalls at just under 48 ipm.
> >> ...
> >> What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
> >
> > I would guess resonance or step signal have to toggle between two
> > different frequencies but have no experience. An oscilloscope would
> > tell if there are problems with the step signal. I can also tell if
> > stepper driver behave as expected.
>
> You can also hook up an old PC speaker with a 150 Ohm
> resistor in series to the step signal and listen to it.  The
> ear has a great system for picking out multiple
> frequencies.  Since my (Pico Systems) stepper board is
> essentially a servo, where the computer sends a velocity,
> step pulses are counted as if they were coming from an
> encoder, and then run through the PID hal component, bad PID
> parameters can cause nasty frequency hopping at certain
> speeds.  So, I listen to it and twiddle until I get smooth
> tones that sound like turning the dial on an audio
> oscillator.  (You can also do this with Halscope.)
>
> Jon

For software stepping, halscope is neat, but the 5i25 does not expose the 
step/dir signals for halscope perusal so a real scope or better yet the 
speaker is needed for this.  And its an idea I hadn't thought of to try, 
thanks Jon.  The ear is a fantastic device for hearing odd sounds that 
aren't supposed to be there!  The eyes are overloaded trying to analyse 
a moving target.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Todd Zuercher]

Gene,

I think he is referring to "Auto Tune" function that is activated by toggling 
DIP switch #4
(see the bottom of page 8)
http://www.americanmotiontech.com/upload/Manuals/DM860m.pdf

No, idea what it does or how. (no experience with these drives.)

- Original Message -
From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 1:03:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

On Wednesday 20 April 2016 10:25:47 Claude Froidevaux wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Your are most probably in some mechanical resonance. You can try to
> tune the DM860 for this, using the tools from leadshine "protuner"
>
> http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products=ste
>pper-products=stepper-drives=DM=DM870
>
> Claude

That leads to a different driver, one I've never seen advertised yet, 
which reads as if it may be "next generation" software in it, says auto 
tune, which the MA860 has none of.

Its also, about $132, 2x the MA860.  What I just ordered may be better, 
and since I ordered a dual shaft motor, I can put a damper on it.
At 4.4 mh connected bipolar-parallel, compared to the 23mh of this one, 
it ought to fairly scream for rapids once I get the counterweight 
springs sorted.



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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 20 April 2016 11:00:57 Thomas Powderly wrote:

> if
> the stepper is direct coupled to screw
>
> can a damper be put on the far end of the transmission
> ( end of leadscrew vs end of motor)?
>
> may not be optimal but may help
>
> ( hmmm maybe a belt drive is auto damped ? ;-)
>
> tomp
>
Not in my experience Tomp. If the belt is loose maybe, but loose 
belts=backlash, lots of it. The way my toy mill is setup, driving the AC 
ball bearing mounted nut, I'd guess I have 30+ lbs of tension on the 
belt, and I can adjust the nut pair for less than 2 thou of backlash 
total.  Thats also with the ball bearing wheelbase stretchers that about 
triple the "wheelbase" of the vways on the head's sled/gib setup. 
Virtually no z stiction now.  If I note some when its moving slow and 
silent, a shot of vactra on the ways and a quickie full stroke run to 
distribute it will stop that for several days.

FWIW, I am seeing this same effect on the G0704 when the gibs are snugged 
up to stop any side to side head wiggle.  Same cure, I keep an oiler 
loaded with vactra 68 for that within reach. But that observation was 
made when the Z nut holder was coming loose too.  Not noticed since I 
took a torque wrench to those 2 screws that marry the nut holder to the 
carriage. I still lube it before any real work is to be done.

> On 04/20/16 22:25, Claude Froidevaux wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Your are most probably in some mechanical resonance. You can try to
> > tune the DM860 for this, using the tools from leadshine "protuner"
> >
> > http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products=s
> >tepper-products=stepper-drives=DM=DM870
> >
> > Claude
> >
> > Le 20.04.2016 06:33, Gene Heskett a écrit :
> >> Greetings;
> >>
> >> One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive
> >> at various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it
> >> moves dead silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the
> >> table, exactly as if is was being full stepped, and it doesn't
> >> become at all smooth again until its moving the head at 25 ipm or
> >> more, then stalls at just under 48 ipm.
> >>
> >> 2 related questions then;
> >>
> >> This is a DM860 drive.  It it known to drop the microstepping at an
> >> unusually low rps?
> >>
> >> I'm looking at the DQ2722MA, 110-220VAC, 7.0A, 200 Microstep,
> >> driver/psu combined, which is 110-250 volt AC powered, which would
> >> remove the 350 watter doing that job now, but its close to $185 in
> >> a box on my front deck. So by the time I get the 906 oz motor Greg
> >> B. recommends, and hang some counterweighting springs on this thing
> >> I'll have close to $300 USD in solving this problem once and for
> >> all.
> >>
> >> What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
> >>
> >> Thank you all.
> >>
> >> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >
> > 
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 20 April 2016 10:25:47 Claude Froidevaux wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Your are most probably in some mechanical resonance. You can try to
> tune the DM860 for this, using the tools from leadshine "protuner"
>
> http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products=ste
>pper-products=stepper-drives=DM=DM870
>
> Claude

That leads to a different driver, one I've never seen advertised yet, 
which reads as if it may be "next generation" software in it, says auto 
tune, which the MA860 has none of.

Its also, about $132, 2x the MA860.  What I just ordered may be better, 
and since I ordered a dual shaft motor, I can put a damper on it.
At 4.4 mh connected bipolar-parallel, compared to the 23mh of this one, 
it ought to fairly scream for rapids once I get the counterweight 
springs sorted.

> Le 20.04.2016 06:33, Gene Heskett a écrit :
> > Greetings;
> >
> > One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive
> > at various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it
> > moves dead silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the table,
> > exactly as if is was being full stepped, and it doesn't become at
> > all smooth again until its moving the head at 25 ipm or more, then
> > stalls at just under 48 ipm.
> >
> > 2 related questions then;
> >
> > This is a DM860 drive.  It it known to drop the microstepping at an
> > unusually low rps?
> >
> > I'm looking at the DQ2722MA, 110-220VAC, 7.0A, 200 Microstep,
> > driver/psu combined, which is 110-250 volt AC powered, which would
> > remove the 350 watter doing that job now, but its close to $185 in a
> > box on my front deck. So by the time I get the 906 oz motor Greg B.
> > recommends, and hang some counterweighting springs on this thing
> > I'll have close to $300 USD in solving this problem once and for
> > all.
> >
> > What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
> >
> > Thank you all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 20 April 2016 07:38:39 John Thornton wrote:

> Is that a Leadshine drive? I thought they were pretty good. I do like
> my G203V's they run smooth and fast.
>
> http://www.geckodrive.com/geckodrive-step-motor-drives/g203v.html
>
> JT

Where do you program the microsteps it uses?  Ah, found it, $24 optional 
plugin card and that brings it up to $166 USD + ship.  Ouch.  I can beat 
that, self powered, 9.8 amps, the usual microstep setting dip switches:



for $177.  At one point yesterday I had that driver and a 920 oz 4,4 mh 
motor lumped together, for about $220 IIRC and if I can find it again, 
will order it. ebays search function sucks.

Couldn't find the kit with that driver, ordered separately, about 10 
days. $265 IIRC. No clue what the motor coil peak volts is but its got 
to be a heck of a lot faster than the 1600 oz/in, 23 mh 3.5 amp snail, 
with a 60 volt 5.85 amp, + an MA860 driver 3 piece combo in there now.  
Maybe even faster than the XY setups on it, they peter out at about 60 
ipm if asked to go clear to the end of the x ways.  And I'll go see what 
I can get from tractor supply in the way of pulleys, springs and bars to 
hold the upper end where the pulleys will live.  Just like on my HF toy, 
but a heck of a lot neater looking I hope. I might even get 4 pulleys so 
I can stretch the springs forward to get a hold on the head somewhat 
closer to its CG. Slim possibility of attaching the pulley mounting bars 
on angle stock on top of the motor if the motor has any tapped holes on 
the top face. TBD of course. Now I have a 15" abrasive saw I didn't have 
when a cobbled up the toy mill so I can cut steel a little neater.

Thanks John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Jon Elson]

On 04/20/2016 06:04 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Halscope shows a very small amplitude ripple, perhaps 5% 
> of the instant output at pid.z.output
Look at PID..error, it will magnify the deviation. 
Although, I guess, if the PID output is only varying by 5%, 
then the step rate should not be varying more than that.  
That shouldn't be the cause of loss of sync of the motor.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Jon Elson]

On 04/20/2016 03:20 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
>> Greetings;
>>
>> One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive at
>> various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it moves dead
>> silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the table, exactly as if
>> is was being full stepped, and it doesn't become at all smooth again
>> until its moving the head at 25 ipm or more, then stalls at just under
>> 48 ipm.
>> ...
>> What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
> I would guess resonance or step signal have to toggle between two different 
> frequencies but have no experience. An oscilloscope would tell if there are 
> problems with the step signal. I can also tell if stepper driver behave as 
> expected.
>
>
You can also hook up an old PC speaker with a 150 Ohm 
resistor in series to the step signal and listen to it.  The 
ear has a great system for picking out multiple 
frequencies.  Since my (Pico Systems) stepper board is 
essentially a servo, where the computer sends a velocity, 
step pulses are counted as if they were coming from an 
encoder, and then run through the PID hal component, bad PID 
parameters can cause nasty frequency hopping at certain 
speeds.  So, I listen to it and twiddle until I get smooth 
tones that sound like turning the dial on an audio 
oscillator.  (You can also do this with Halscope.)

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Thomas Powderly]

if
the stepper is direct coupled to screw

can a damper be put on the far end of the transmission
( end of leadscrew vs end of motor)?

may not be optimal but may help

( hmmm maybe a belt drive is auto damped ? ;-)

tomp

On 04/20/16 22:25, Claude Froidevaux wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Your are most probably in some mechanical resonance. You can try to tune
> the DM860 for this, using the tools from leadshine "protuner"
>
> http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products=stepper-products=stepper-drives=DM=DM870
>
> Claude
>
>
>
> Le 20.04.2016 06:33, Gene Heskett a écrit :
>> Greetings;
>>
>> One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive at
>> various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it moves dead
>> silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the table, exactly as if
>> is was being full stepped, and it doesn't become at all smooth again
>> until its moving the head at 25 ipm or more, then stalls at just under
>> 48 ipm.
>>
>> 2 related questions then;
>>
>> This is a DM860 drive.  It it known to drop the microstepping at an
>> unusually low rps?
>>
>> I'm looking at the DQ2722MA, 110-220VAC, 7.0A, 200 Microstep, driver/psu
>> combined, which is 110-250 volt AC powered, which would remove the 350
>> watter doing that job now, but its close to $185 in a box on my front
>> deck. So by the time I get the 906 oz motor Greg B. recommends, and hang
>> some counterweighting springs on this thing I'll have close to $300 USD
>> in solving this problem once and for all.
>>
>> What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
>>
>> Thank you all.
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Claude Froidevaux]

Hi,

Your are most probably in some mechanical resonance. You can try to tune 
the DM860 for this, using the tools from leadshine "protuner"

http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products=stepper-products=stepper-drives=DM=DM870

Claude



Le 20.04.2016 06:33, Gene Heskett a écrit :
> Greetings;
>
> One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive at
> various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it moves dead
> silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the table, exactly as if
> is was being full stepped, and it doesn't become at all smooth again
> until its moving the head at 25 ipm or more, then stalls at just under
> 48 ipm.
>
> 2 related questions then;
>
> This is a DM860 drive.  It it known to drop the microstepping at an
> unusually low rps?
>
> I'm looking at the DQ2722MA, 110-220VAC, 7.0A, 200 Microstep, driver/psu
> combined, which is 110-250 volt AC powered, which would remove the 350
> watter doing that job now, but its close to $185 in a box on my front
> deck. So by the time I get the 906 oz motor Greg B. recommends, and hang
> some counterweighting springs on this thing I'll have close to $300 USD
> in solving this problem once and for all.
>
> What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
>
> Thank you all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[John Thornton]

Is that a Leadshine drive? I thought they were pretty good. I do like my 
G203V's they run smooth and fast.

http://www.geckodrive.com/geckodrive-step-motor-drives/g203v.html

JT

On 4/19/2016 11:33 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings;
>
> One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive at
> various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it moves dead
> silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the table, exactly as if
> is was being full stepped, and it doesn't become at all smooth again
> until its moving the head at 25 ipm or more, then stalls at just under
> 48 ipm.
>
> 2 related questions then;
>
> This is a DM860 drive.  It it known to drop the microstepping at an
> unusually low rps?
>
> I'm looking at the DQ2722MA, 110-220VAC, 7.0A, 200 Microstep, driver/psu
> combined, which is 110-250 volt AC powered, which would remove the 350
> watter doing that job now, but its close to $185 in a box on my front
> deck. So by the time I get the 906 oz motor Greg B. recommends, and hang
> some counterweighting springs on this thing I'll have close to $300 USD
> in solving this problem once and for all.
>
> What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
>
> Thank you all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 20 April 2016 05:23:22 Sarah Armstrong wrote:

> simply drop the high microstepping , you dont need it , high
> microstepping = missing steps , and decreaced Torque
> Microstepping should only really be used for removing resonance .
>
In my playing with the 2m542's and 400+ oz/in nema 23's, 4 is noisy, 8 is 
much quieter and 16 is very quiet. I can go back to 8 on this just to 
test.  At 8 I can hear it even at 1 rps.  Single shaft motors, so I 
can't put dampers on any of these.  Darn it.  Dampers on the toy mill, 
and on the lathes z are a huge help, tripling the rapids capability.

Thanks Sarah.
[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 20 April 2016 04:20:14 Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

> > Greetings;
> >
> > One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive
> > at various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it
> > moves dead silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the table,
> > exactly as if is was being full stepped, and it doesn't become at
> > all smooth again until its moving the head at 25 ipm or more, then
> > stalls at just under 48 ipm.
> > ...
> > What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
>
> I would guess resonance or step signal have to toggle between two
> different frequencies but have no experience. An oscilloscope would
> tell if there are problems with the step signal. I can also tell if
> stepper driver behave as expected.
>
>
> Nicklas Karlsson

Halscope shows a very small amplitude ripple, perhaps 5% of the instant 
output at pid.z.output to the 5i25 when this is going on. This while the 
peck loop using g33.1 is cutting air. Certainly not a rail to rail jog 
that it sounds like.

My thinking is that this driver is keeping the math correct, but is 
switching off the microstepping long before rotor inertia would result 
in a smoothed move.  The 2m542 drivers doing the x/y, show no evidence 
of doing that.  I have had the microstepping ratios set for everything 
above 4, currently at 64, and the only noticeable change is from 4 to 8 
to 16. At 8, even slow movement is audible, at 64, 1 rps is dead silent. 
At 3 rps its sounding rough, at 5 rps its rattling tools off the table.  
Changing the current up and down half an amp has little effect on this 
noise.  I haven't looked at a motor phase from the driver as I've read 
that the scope probes capacitance can blow the driver.  Since the probes 
are 10x, maybe 16 pf's, that sounds like an old wives tail as its happy 
driveing 9 feet of a shielded cable to the x motor & 6 feet to the z 
motor.

So that explains why I'd like to change the driver for another type, but 
thats an expensive way to test...  Thats why I am asking for other users 
experience with this far more expensive driver before I have paypal 
issue the payment.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Sarah Armstrong]

simply drop the high microstepping , you dont need it , high microstepping
= missing steps , and decreaced Torque
Microstepping should only really be used for removing resonance .

On 20 April 2016 at 09:20, Nicklas Karlsson 
wrote:

> > Greetings;
> >
> > One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive at
> > various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it moves dead
> > silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the table, exactly as if
> > is was being full stepped, and it doesn't become at all smooth again
> > until its moving the head at 25 ipm or more, then stalls at just under
> > 48 ipm.
> > ...
> > What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?
>
> I would guess resonance or step signal have to toggle between two
> different frequencies but have no experience. An oscilloscope would tell if
> there are problems with the step signal. I can also tell if stepper driver
> behave as expected.
>
>
> Nicklas Karlsson
>
>
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> Manager
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Re: [Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> Greetings;
> 
> One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive at 
> various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it moves dead 
> silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the table, exactly as if 
> is was being full stepped, and it doesn't become at all smooth again 
> until its moving the head at 25 ipm or more, then stalls at just under 
> 48 ipm.
> ...
> What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?

I would guess resonance or step signal have to toggle between two different 
frequencies but have no experience. An oscilloscope would tell if there are 
problems with the step signal. I can also tell if stepper driver behave as 
expected.


Nicklas Karlsson

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[Emc-users] Question on DM860 stepper drivers

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings;

One of the things I am noticing, when running this crippled Z drive at 
various speeds, is that up to about 3/4 rps at its shaft, it moves dead 
silently, but by 2 rps, its rattling tools off the table, exactly as if 
is was being full stepped, and it doesn't become at all smooth again 
until its moving the head at 25 ipm or more, then stalls at just under 
48 ipm.

2 related questions then;

This is a DM860 drive.  It it known to drop the microstepping at an 
unusually low rps?

I'm looking at the DQ2722MA, 110-220VAC, 7.0A, 200 Microstep, driver/psu 
combined, which is 110-250 volt AC powered, which would remove the 350 
watter doing that job now, but its close to $185 in a box on my front 
deck. So by the time I get the 906 oz motor Greg B. recommends, and hang 
some counterweighting springs on this thing I'll have close to $300 USD 
in solving this problem once and for all.

What say you folks?  Will this truly solve it?

Thank you all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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