Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On 06/07/2015 02:25 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: I recommend you some literature on this topic. Embedded real-time systems are not data centers. Nowhere have I suggested that. Be careful here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_form-factor_pluggable_transceiver with matching interfaces of course can make embedded RT system just a few nS away from the DC! Data centers in large industrial complexes are not far from embedded systems relatively speaking. Nuclear and other power plants I've seen are designed that way, where most if not all embedded systems connect to the data center. All distributed systems eventually need to be managed or monitored from one or more places! So now we are back to Sandybox running LinuxCNC and good idea of possibility to run GUI remotely. Hermann Kopetz, Real-Time Systems: Design Principles for Distributed Embedded Applications, Springer, 2011, ISBN: 978-1-4419-8236-0 Roman Obermaisser, Event-Triggered and Time-Triggered Control Paradigms, Springer, 2005, ISBN: 0-387-23043-2 That's all nice but what has that to do with my original post about problems with connecting or stacking (physically incompatible) interfaces on top of low cost SBC? There is an Raspberri Pi model with PCB edge connector: https://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-compute-module-new-product/ But I don't get it. What makes this type of connector better than a pin header? If one wants to connect sensors to this device it would be necessary to create a break-out board anyway. I've seen this months ago. Good start, Compute module, and design but they blew it with the Compute Module IO Board it's only a developer board with larger footprint than a backplane could be. It's header connectors are for test purposes or connecting to sections of them but not suitable for adding other boards. I hope not, because I bet 10 donuts that you'll bend some pins first time you try to remove the board. What they should have done is design 2 or 3 interfaces with edge connectors just like the compute board and add a backplane IMO. http://www.element14.com/community/community/raspberry-pi/raspberry-pi-compute-module/blog/2014/06/26/raspberry-pi-compute-module--getting-started Raspberry Pi has become a firm favorite in the maker community and there are many thousands of projects that use the Pi including many professional products. But the form factor of the Pi, while being ideal for makers and hackers the world over is not so ideal for industrial applications or professional products. So I'm not the only one seeing this problem! Same situation with BBB. CNC goes under industrial products as far as I know so there won't be many CNC machines built with mentioned SBCs in their current form factor. Ideally, edge connector interfaces would have ports in groups depending on functionality or speed. Common functions on interfaces: - storage (RAM, SSD) - DIO board, - A/D - D/A - sound processors - USB, CAN, I2C - Ethernet - wireless - GPS That way new designers would see the potential right away. Now everybody seem to be encouraged to build their own versions of proprietary carrier boards which almost never match your needs and it's not what I have in mind. There are others doing similar things, but for an industrial price. I'm sure they are not bus compatible so you can't mix the boards. http://linuxgizmos.com/linux-ready-com-family-adopts-new-freescale-imx6-ultralite/ That's how I see it. I suggest you check out http://elinux.org/Main_Page and tell me how many HW projects are board compatible? Too many bananas: http://wiki.lemaker.org/BananaPro/Pi:Hardware_specification Has anybody seen schematics for mentioned SBC in other form than PDF? -- Rafael -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
I recommend you some literature on this topic. Embedded real-time systems are not data centers. Hermann Kopetz, Real-Time Systems: Design Principles for Distributed Embedded Applications, Springer, 2011, ISBN: 978-1-4419-8236-0 Roman Obermaisser, Event-Triggered and Time-Triggered Control Paradigms, Springer, 2005, ISBN: 0-387-23043-2 There is an Raspberri Pi model with PCB edge connector: https://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-compute-module-new-product/ But I don't get it. What makes this type of connector better than a pin header? If one wants to connect sensors to this device it would be necessary to create a break-out board anyway. Rafael writes: Perhaps it's just semantics but we are not making progress here ;-) On 06/06/2015 05:46 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: Rafael writes: On 06/05/2015 01:18 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: Rafael writes: On 06/04/2015 07:13 AM, Ron Bean wrote: If you need one computer to see the GUI and one for realtime effects, why not just start out with a real computer and load Linux and LinuxCNC on it? snip In my HW support experience I came across PDP-11 systems running in steel mills, nuclear and hydro power plants, factories, etc. with little or no graphics. Most used VT100, some used more advanced color terminals. Systems with 32kW(ord) or 64kW RAM controlled huge machinery with RTOS on much slower CPU than we have today. The future are distributed systems. Distributed setups are industrial standard and are used everywhere from automotive to automation industry. CAN and Ethernet are used these days to distribute neither one is suitable for strict real time. CAN as event triggered bus is not. You may understand TCP/IP as Huh??? BUS is not event triggered? Every bus I know has an interrupt line(s). Generic BUS is just a data path, not an interface, you are mixing the two. Ethernet. However, Ethernet can be used as time-triggered bus too. There are many standards such as EtherCAT and Powerlink which are widely used in automation industry. But that is not a data bus I'm talking about! Using your definition, RS232, parallel port (see, we call it a port), phone line, and traditional CaTV network are also a bus. In my understanding BUS is physical component of a computer to connect numerous peripherals to the CPU and among themselves. DMA for example is used for data transfer between the peripheral and storage (RAM, disk drive, SSD) without CPU intervention. No such thing in ethernet. All these concepts were resolved on mainframes decades ago. What changed is the size of components and their speed. functionality across different ECUs. The BBB is fine when it comes to CAN but an even stronger platform from TI is coming up: the BeagleBoard X15 with Gigabit Ethernet support Don't mix computer BUS and cabling. Two different things. Some cables do act as traditional extend bus but none at the length of an airplane or HMMVE. What good is Gigabit Ethernet when you need to connect a keypad, a switch, accelerometer, or optical sensor to BBB? Ethernet is not a bus, it's one of communications peripherals. You are wrong, Ethernet is a bus. When you take a look at the history This is becoming silly. Ethernet IS NOT A computer BUS just like USB, RS232, RS485, 60mA current loop, are not traditional data buses. Perhaps the terminology got confused when USB was introduced and you know how much of a bus that is or how real time that can be. I work in large data centers and never hear anybody calling ethernet a bus. In some instances we use Cat-6 cables, in other we use optical for 10Gb or 40Gb connections between the routers, switches and servers. I would never call that cheap. A single ethernet interface costs more than a large box of BBBs. you will see that it started out with a very different physical interface as nowadays. The huge advantage of Ethernet is that network I know very well how it started and what kind of connectors were used to connect ethernet interfaces on DEC or other computers over the years. At some point coax cable was used to string PCs together into a network. I probably still have RG-58 cables around, good for amateur radio. If you forgot 50 ohm terminator, or used a cheap BNC connector, that connection went wireless and transmitted all over the spectrum except between the computers. I paid my share to that hell but we ever called it an ethernet BUS! hardware is cheap (not all is RT compatible though) because it acts only on the data-link layer (Ethernet frames). What I am talking about are Ethernet hubs. I hear hardware is cheap all the time. It is in some instances but when I ask an engineer that demands additional disk space because he thinks hardware is cheap: if it's cheap, why don't you go out and buy a disk drive? they walk away and start cleaning their home directories full of junk on servers because management tells them to do so.
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On 06/06/2015 11:07 AM, Gregg Eshelman wrote: On 6/6/2015 6:46 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: However, I agree that connectors are a big problem in general when it comes to computers. Only few capes address this problem an come with pin headers to connect sensors/motors. However, that is one problem we tried to address with the SandyBox and the different controller boxes (Lin-Ctrl stepper driver, Print-Ctrl for the 3D printer) . They come with standard Molex connectors to connect sensors, switches an motors. We are planning a future version of the SandyBox to address this problem. So if you have ideas please share them. A Beagle Bone cape that breaks out everything to some currently available card edge connector so that peripherals can also use the same edge to plug into a backplane? Somebody understands what I'm talking about. capes with edge connectors plugged into backplane. One component less to mount and solder. A bus with DIMM connectors for example, would provide sufficient number of pins for all needed lines, could be built with 90deg. or slanted connectors for low profile applications, have mechanical lock for PCBs, all at low cost. Extenders would help solve development or troubleshooting issues with such interfaces just like they do on other buses. Now if the Beaglebone board had an edge connector to be plugged into a standard backplane, perhaps Mesa and some other manufacturers could build special interfaces for CNC and we could easily use such SBCs to control bigger machines not just toys. With appropriate backplane you could connect more than 2 interfaces to it at the same time which is not possible now with most capes or shields with Arduino or BBB. Try to sandwich together ethernet or Xbee shield and motorshield on ArduinoMega for example. Won't fit. If another SBC with different processor from a different manufacturer would be more suitable, you could simply swap SBC but keep the backplane and interfaces. Of course, it would be also possible to make active backplanes with microcontroller and some peripherals or ports built in. XMos has done something like that with PCIe x1 connectors for their slice card peripherals which are NOT PCIe devices. enough of this dream about low cost, flexible, and compatible SBCs and interfaces. -- Rafael -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
I disagree. What could be more worthwhile than discussing the merits or future possible developments and trends.. Dave On 6/6/2015 3:32 PM, Rafael wrote: Perhaps it's just semantics but we are not making progress here ;-) On 06/06/2015 05:46 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: Rafael writes: On 06/05/2015 01:18 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: Rafael writes: On 06/04/2015 07:13 AM, Ron Bean wrote: If you need one computer to see the GUI and one for realtime effects, why not just start out with a real computer and load Linux and LinuxCNC on it? snip In my HW support experience I came across PDP-11 systems running in steel mills, nuclear and hydro power plants, factories, etc. with little or no graphics. Most used VT100, some used more advanced color terminals. Systems with 32kW(ord) or 64kW RAM controlled huge machinery with RTOS on much slower CPU than we have today. The future are distributed systems. Distributed setups are industrial standard and are used everywhere from automotive to automation industry. CAN and Ethernet are used these days to distribute neither one is suitable for strict real time. CAN as event triggered bus is not. You may understand TCP/IP as Huh??? BUS is not event triggered? Every bus I know has an interrupt line(s). Generic BUS is just a data path, not an interface, you are mixing the two. Ethernet. However, Ethernet can be used as time-triggered bus too. There are many standards such as EtherCAT and Powerlink which are widely used in automation industry. But that is not a data bus I'm talking about! Using your definition, RS232, parallel port (see, we call it a port), phone line, and traditional CaTV network are also a bus. In my understanding BUS is physical component of a computer to connect numerous peripherals to the CPU and among themselves. DMA for example is used for data transfer between the peripheral and storage (RAM, disk drive, SSD) without CPU intervention. No such thing in ethernet. All these concepts were resolved on mainframes decades ago. What changed is the size of components and their speed. functionality across different ECUs. The BBB is fine when it comes to CAN but an even stronger platform from TI is coming up: the BeagleBoard X15 with Gigabit Ethernet support Don't mix computer BUS and cabling. Two different things. Some cables do act as traditional extend bus but none at the length of an airplane or HMMVE. What good is Gigabit Ethernet when you need to connect a keypad, a switch, accelerometer, or optical sensor to BBB? Ethernet is not a bus, it's one of communications peripherals. You are wrong, Ethernet is a bus. When you take a look at the history This is becoming silly. Ethernet IS NOT A computer BUS just like USB, RS232, RS485, 60mA current loop, are not traditional data buses. Perhaps the terminology got confused when USB was introduced and you know how much of a bus that is or how real time that can be. I work in large data centers and never hear anybody calling ethernet a bus. In some instances we use Cat-6 cables, in other we use optical for 10Gb or 40Gb connections between the routers, switches and servers. I would never call that cheap. A single ethernet interface costs more than a large box of BBBs. you will see that it started out with a very different physical interface as nowadays. The huge advantage of Ethernet is that network I know very well how it started and what kind of connectors were used to connect ethernet interfaces on DEC or other computers over the years. At some point coax cable was used to string PCs together into a network. I probably still have RG-58 cables around, good for amateur radio. If you forgot 50 ohm terminator, or used a cheap BNC connector, that connection went wireless and transmitted all over the spectrum except between the computers. I paid my share to that hell but we ever called it an ethernet BUS! hardware is cheap (not all is RT compatible though) because it acts only on the data-link layer (Ethernet frames). What I am talking about are Ethernet hubs. I hear hardware is cheap all the time. It is in some instances but when I ask an engineer that demands additional disk space because he thinks hardware is cheap: if it's cheap, why don't you go out and buy a disk drive? they walk away and start cleaning their home directories full of junk on servers because management tells them to do so. Cost is always relative to age, volumes, and features. The idea of time-triggered buses is to resend that every resend what? Resending packets to fix broken blocks of data is very costly. Idea is not to resend anything. Send it once and be done with. You cannot afford to lose an interrupt when a mill is at the stop switch. cycle. Therefore, a higher network bandwidth means that one can use a smaller cycle time. The bandwidth is not wasted as some people stated. Ethernet packet is not guaranteed to make it to the other side,
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
Rafael writes: On 06/05/2015 01:18 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: Rafael writes: On 06/04/2015 07:13 AM, Ron Bean wrote: If you need one computer to see the GUI and one for realtime effects, why not just start out with a real computer and load Linux and LinuxCNC on it? snip In my HW support experience I came across PDP-11 systems running in steel mills, nuclear and hydro power plants, factories, etc. with little or no graphics. Most used VT100, some used more advanced color terminals. Systems with 32kW(ord) or 64kW RAM controlled huge machinery with RTOS on much slower CPU than we have today. The future are distributed systems. Distributed setups are industrial standard and are used everywhere from automotive to automation industry. CAN and Ethernet are used these days to distribute neither one is suitable for strict real time. CAN as event triggered bus is not. You may understand TCP/IP as Ethernet. However, Ethernet can be used as time-triggered bus too. There are many standards such as EtherCAT and Powerlink which are widely used in automation industry. functionality across different ECUs. The BBB is fine when it comes to CAN but an even stronger platform from TI is coming up: the BeagleBoard X15 with Gigabit Ethernet support Don't mix computer BUS and cabling. Two different things. Some cables do act as traditional extend bus but none at the length of an airplane or HMMVE. What good is Gigabit Ethernet when you need to connect a keypad, a switch, accelerometer, or optical sensor to BBB? Ethernet is not a bus, it's one of communications peripherals. You are wrong, Ethernet is a bus. When you take a look at the history you will see that it started out with a very different physical interface as nowadays. The huge advantage of Ethernet is that network hardware is cheap (not all is RT compatible though) because it acts only on the data-link layer (Ethernet frames). What I am talking about are Ethernet hubs. The idea of time-triggered buses is to resend that every cycle. Therefore, a higher network bandwidth means that one can use a smaller cycle time. The bandwidth is not wasted as some people stated. Why not attaching the sensors you mentioned directly to the BBB? Just create (or use one of the many) capes with a decent connector and you are fine. If you want to go the industrial standard way you can buy sensors with bus interface (I am not talking about I2C, SPI, ...). Onewire is common for simple sensors. Another example in the automotive industry it is pretty common to have ECUs that do only simple tasks like reading out sensors and providing the data on a CAN bus. With microprocessors getting cheaper and cheaper the industry will further move into distributed systems. On the other edge of the spectrum we have another low cost solution that is currently funded on kickstarter C.H.I.P. a 9$ dollar Linux computer with Bluetooth and WLAN = a cheap solution to connect sensors. This is one of a kind toys that don't make a standard! Nor would anybody serious use it for a CNC machine. I even heard about things like fly-by-wireless. Which boils down to removing the wired buses inside a plane. So face the facts: Big monolithic computer setups will soon be banned to server farms. Most airplanes and modern military vehicles use computers based on decades of developments on VME bus and it's derivatives because they need a lot of connections. That likely includes CompactPCI, it's emerging CompactPCI Serial, and VPX. As tiny lasers are getting cheaper, cost of building optical bus and compatible peripherals will become more common in the near future so we'll see even more data buses. Optical cables have different problems than metal cables. They have more problems when it comes to mechanical stress. I am not sure they will succeed copper wires that quickly. When you take a look inside an airplane you will see that the wiring is consuming a lot of space inside the hull. The idea of replacing some buses with wireless interfaces drastically reduces development costs. So maybe in 30-50 years we will have wireless operating planes. Every computer in existence has a bus, available or not, for connections to additional peripherals. There is a bus on BBB, RaspberryPi, Radxa, and other little SBCs to add peripherals. My comment was about the problem with every little SBC having different connectors and their positions on the board while all are using sandwich mechanical architecture that cannot be expanded easily. What you are pointing out is that these devices do not come with standard connectors. There are some capes (additional board that can be put on the pin headers) that provide different connectors for different applications. The BeagleBone Green will come with connectors for the Groove sensors if you want something out of the box. Furthermore, you have USB and Ethernet connectors available. However, I agree that connectors are a
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
No, USB does not work for tablets. At least not for Android tablets. This would require root access. However, the next generation Android with the automotive interface will probably make this possible even without root access. When you plug the USB cable into a computer it will attach itself as mass storage device. On the flash memory all the configurations and applications are located (for Windows, Linux and Mac). Furthermore, an additional Network interface will appear (RNDIS driver). This makes it possible to attach the box to any computer without installing anything! The reason is users complained about LinuxCNC being hard to install (mainly because you need a Linux capable computer). With this solution they can use wathever OS they prefer. Some reported it even working on Windows Surface tablets. An additional aspect of the box is that it is extremely portable. When you take a look at the UNIMAT machines you see why this a huge plus. They are very small and portable. Since it runs also without GUI (detachable) you can even work with more than one machine similutaniously. With the remote launcher you can even start different configurations from a tablet, no computer necessary. On June 5, 2015 9:36:07 PM CEST, Przemek Klosowski przemek.klosow...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote: Then what exactly is the USB cable being used for? Connect a USB cable between the tablet and the BBB, and have them talk to each other by network transport over USB, including doing remote X protocol to the server on the tablet. I described that couple of weeks ago in this list. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 5:42 AM, Alexander Rössler mail@roessler.systems wrote: No, USB does not work for tablets. At least not for Android tablets. This would require root access. However, the next generation Android with the automotive interface will probably make this possible even without root access. I am not sure what you're referring to---I did the steps I reported and it worked on Android 4.2.2. Perhaps it's the Android X server app that sets up the RNDIS, but it does work as I described. The reason is users complained about LinuxCNC being hard to install (mainly because you need a Linux capable computer). With this solution they can use wathever OS they prefer. Some reported it even working on Windows Surface tablets. Are you talking about installing LinuxCNC on Windows, and displaying to Surface? It may work, but don't see the benefit. I have not seen a computer that is incapable of Linux in a long time; the problem usually is that people install Linux and find themselves in unfamiliar territory. However, installing LinuxCNC on Windows, even if it worked, would probably land them in unfamiliar territory as well; LCNC is not your typical Windows app. There are many scenarios for deploying LCNC. Sorry for being Captain Ovious, but I would recommend one of the following, starting from most standard/best supported/easiest: - standard one: x86 PC box, running LCNC, with local display - like above but with a remote X11 display, either over Ethernet (to a second PC) or over USB (to a tablet, which I demonstrated in a post) - embedded LCNC box such as ARM BeagleBone Black (BBB) with a motor cape, which does not have an integral display, so I recommend a remote display, same as in the previous case. BTW, Charlie Steinkuehler and others work on a LCNC fork called MachineKit that is targeted for those. An additional aspect of the box is that it is extremely portable. When you take a look at the UNIMAT machines you see why this a huge plus. They are very small and portable. Since it runs also without GUI (detachable) you can even work with more than one machine similutaniously. It's hard to beat BBB for portability; it literally is the size of an Altoid box (OK, it requires a motor cape so it's a little bigger) -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Our (US) aging B-52 fleet was upgraded about a decade back from individual wires to just a couple heavy power cables and a few bits of coax, to run everything on those geriatric monsters over a network. Which bus protocol wasn't mentioned at the time, probably for security reasons, but they were sure pleased as punch that the upgrade lightened that airplane by 50,000 lbs. All military and commercial avionics run over standard buses : MIL-STD-1553 and maybe also ARINC 429. US Military is very much into standards and believes in Kerckhoff's principle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerckhoffs%27s_principle ), ie. no security by obscurity. They protect information by standard, well vetted crypto protocols and young men with large guns. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Saturday 06 June 2015 08:46:12 Alexander Rössler wrote: Rafael writes: On 06/05/2015 01:18 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: Rafael writes: On 06/04/2015 07:13 AM, Ron Bean wrote: If you need one computer to see the GUI and one for realtime effects, why not just start out with a real computer and load Linux and LinuxCNC on it? While there may eventually be a good reason for this old coot to switch, it hasn't arrived yet. snip In my HW support experience I came across PDP-11 systems running in steel mills, nuclear and hydro power plants, factories, etc. with little or no graphics. Most used VT100, some used more advanced color terminals. Systems with 32kW(ord) or 64kW RAM controlled huge machinery with RTOS on much slower CPU than we have today. The future are distributed systems. Distributed setups are industrial standard and are used everywhere from automotive to automation industry. CAN and Ethernet are used these days to distribute neither one is suitable for strict real time. CAN as event triggered bus is not. You may understand TCP/IP as Ethernet. However, Ethernet can be used as time-triggered bus too. There are many standards such as EtherCAT and Powerlink which are widely used in automation industry. Where are the drivers for this protocol? functionality across different ECUs. The BBB is fine when it comes to CAN but an even stronger platform from TI is coming up: the BeagleBoard X15 with Gigabit Ethernet support Don't mix computer BUS and cabling. Two different things. Some cables do act as traditional extend bus but none at the length of an airplane or HMMVE. What good is Gigabit Ethernet when you need to connect a keypad, a switch, accelerometer, or optical sensor to BBB? Ethernet is not a bus, it's one of communications peripherals. You are wrong, Ethernet is a bus. When you take a look at the history you will see that it started out with a very different physical interface as nowadays. The huge advantage of Ethernet is that network hardware is cheap (not all is RT compatible though) because it acts only on the data-link layer (Ethernet frames). What I am talking about are Ethernet hubs. The idea of time-triggered buses is to resend that every cycle. Therefore, a higher network bandwidth means that one can use a smaller cycle time. The bandwidth is not wasted as some people stated. Why not attaching the sensors you mentioned directly to the BBB? Just create (or use one of the many) capes with a decent connector and you are fine. If you want to go the industrial standard way you can buy sensors with bus interface (I am not talking about I2C, SPI, ...). Onewire is common for simple sensors. Another example in the automotive industry it is pretty common to have ECUs that do only simple tasks like reading out sensors and providing the data on a CAN bus. With microprocessors getting cheaper and cheaper the industry will further move into distributed systems. Bus accessible devices usually come with a very proprietary interface, demanding that you buy the whole system from one vendor, usually at 400% price penalty. That likely will not fly here on this list. On the other edge of the spectrum we have another low cost solution that is currently funded on kickstarter C.H.I.P. a 9$ dollar Linux computer with Bluetooth and WLAN = a cheap solution to connect sensors. This is one of a kind toys that don't make a standard! Nor would anybody serious use it for a CNC machine. I even heard about things like fly-by-wireless. Which boils down to removing the wired buses inside a plane. So face the facts: Big monolithic computer setups will soon be banned to server farms. Most airplanes and modern military vehicles use computers based on decades of developments on VME bus and it's derivatives because they need a lot of connections. That likely includes CompactPCI, it's emerging CompactPCI Serial, and VPX. As tiny lasers are getting cheaper, cost of building optical bus and compatible peripherals will become more common in the near future so we'll see even more data buses. Optical cables have different problems than metal cables. They have more problems when it comes to mechanical stress. I am not sure they will succeed copper wires that quickly. When you take a look inside an airplane you will see that the wiring is consuming a lot of space inside the hull. The idea of replacing some buses with wireless interfaces drastically reduces development costs. So maybe in 30-50 years we will have wireless operating planes. Our (US) aging B-52 fleet was upgraded about a decade back from individual wires to just a couple heavy power cables and a few bits of coax, to run everything on those geriatric monsters over a network. Which bus protocol wasn't mentioned at the time, probably for security reasons, but they were sure pleased as punch that the upgrade lightened
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
Perhaps it's just semantics but we are not making progress here ;-) On 06/06/2015 05:46 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: Rafael writes: On 06/05/2015 01:18 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: Rafael writes: On 06/04/2015 07:13 AM, Ron Bean wrote: If you need one computer to see the GUI and one for realtime effects, why not just start out with a real computer and load Linux and LinuxCNC on it? snip In my HW support experience I came across PDP-11 systems running in steel mills, nuclear and hydro power plants, factories, etc. with little or no graphics. Most used VT100, some used more advanced color terminals. Systems with 32kW(ord) or 64kW RAM controlled huge machinery with RTOS on much slower CPU than we have today. The future are distributed systems. Distributed setups are industrial standard and are used everywhere from automotive to automation industry. CAN and Ethernet are used these days to distribute neither one is suitable for strict real time. CAN as event triggered bus is not. You may understand TCP/IP as Huh??? BUS is not event triggered? Every bus I know has an interrupt line(s). Generic BUS is just a data path, not an interface, you are mixing the two. Ethernet. However, Ethernet can be used as time-triggered bus too. There are many standards such as EtherCAT and Powerlink which are widely used in automation industry. But that is not a data bus I'm talking about! Using your definition, RS232, parallel port (see, we call it a port), phone line, and traditional CaTV network are also a bus. In my understanding BUS is physical component of a computer to connect numerous peripherals to the CPU and among themselves. DMA for example is used for data transfer between the peripheral and storage (RAM, disk drive, SSD) without CPU intervention. No such thing in ethernet. All these concepts were resolved on mainframes decades ago. What changed is the size of components and their speed. functionality across different ECUs. The BBB is fine when it comes to CAN but an even stronger platform from TI is coming up: the BeagleBoard X15 with Gigabit Ethernet support Don't mix computer BUS and cabling. Two different things. Some cables do act as traditional extend bus but none at the length of an airplane or HMMVE. What good is Gigabit Ethernet when you need to connect a keypad, a switch, accelerometer, or optical sensor to BBB? Ethernet is not a bus, it's one of communications peripherals. You are wrong, Ethernet is a bus. When you take a look at the history This is becoming silly. Ethernet IS NOT A computer BUS just like USB, RS232, RS485, 60mA current loop, are not traditional data buses. Perhaps the terminology got confused when USB was introduced and you know how much of a bus that is or how real time that can be. I work in large data centers and never hear anybody calling ethernet a bus. In some instances we use Cat-6 cables, in other we use optical for 10Gb or 40Gb connections between the routers, switches and servers. I would never call that cheap. A single ethernet interface costs more than a large box of BBBs. you will see that it started out with a very different physical interface as nowadays. The huge advantage of Ethernet is that network I know very well how it started and what kind of connectors were used to connect ethernet interfaces on DEC or other computers over the years. At some point coax cable was used to string PCs together into a network. I probably still have RG-58 cables around, good for amateur radio. If you forgot 50 ohm terminator, or used a cheap BNC connector, that connection went wireless and transmitted all over the spectrum except between the computers. I paid my share to that hell but we ever called it an ethernet BUS! hardware is cheap (not all is RT compatible though) because it acts only on the data-link layer (Ethernet frames). What I am talking about are Ethernet hubs. I hear hardware is cheap all the time. It is in some instances but when I ask an engineer that demands additional disk space because he thinks hardware is cheap: if it's cheap, why don't you go out and buy a disk drive? they walk away and start cleaning their home directories full of junk on servers because management tells them to do so. Cost is always relative to age, volumes, and features. The idea of time-triggered buses is to resend that every resend what? Resending packets to fix broken blocks of data is very costly. Idea is not to resend anything. Send it once and be done with. You cannot afford to lose an interrupt when a mill is at the stop switch. cycle. Therefore, a higher network bandwidth means that one can use a smaller cycle time. The bandwidth is not wasted as some people stated. Ethernet packet is not guaranteed to make it to the other side, speed is not an issue. If you connect only two devices you may get away with it, add a switch and you have completely different scenario. And it gets costly! Why
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On 6/6/2015 3:42 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: No, USB does not work for tablets. At least not for Android tablets. This would require root access. However, the next generation Android with the automotive interface will probably make this possible even without root access. What about Android tablets and phones with USB OTG (On The Go)? Most that shipped with Android 4 and later, or received official updates to 4, have that. (Notably, the Samsung Galaxy Tab 3 7 does *not*. Grrr.) Even my cheap Nobis NB7850 S tablet has it*. Plug in an OTG adapter and you can connect a flash drive, external hard drive, mouse or keyboard. You can even vampire power from the device to charge a phone charger battery. To use more than one USB device usually requires a powered hub. *It was/is a Staples exclusive. Aluminum body, 1024x768 screen, micro SD, WiFi, dual cameras, plenty of RAM and internal storage - and despite being out there in huge numbers - completely ignored by the Android dev and hacker community. Nobody has bothered to figure out how to root it, let alone put together an upgrade to 5.x for it. Doesn't look like the manufacturer has any plans, even to update it to later 4.x releases. Seems to be the way of most Chinese Android devices, even the really good ones. Boot them out the door then completely ignore them while cranking out the next model. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On 6/6/2015 6:46 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: Optical cables have different problems than metal cables. They have more problems when it comes to mechanical stress. I am not sure they will succeed copper wires that quickly. With optical and wireless, there still has to be wire to both ends to provide power. If the power wires can be made to simultaneously carry high speed serial data, then there's no need for optical fiber or wireless to carry the data. Something bandied about in the 80's but AFAIK never implemented for vehicle systems was a multiplexed power+data bus that would drastically reduce the amount of wiring in a car. No more dedicated power circuit runs. Everything would simply connect to a common power+data bus with computer boxes commanding the various peripherals to turn on and off or do their more complex operations. CAN bus ain't that. The amount of wiring in vehicles has only grown and become ever more complex. Most things still have dedicated power wires, switched far from the end of the wire runs. Could have been so much less wiring if everything connected to the body/frame ground and to a single big wire running point to point around the vehicle. For adding new devices it could follow the model Texas Instruments used with their 99-4/A Home Computer. The computer didn't have to know anything about any device not built into the console. It just had locations in its memory space where it looked for new devices when turned on. The peripherals contained the Device Service Routine (what PC and Mac and Linux call a driver) in ROM which made the device available to use. Such a system for a vehicle bus would allow a new device to be patched in *anywhere* along the wire. The catch is that every device would need some type of electronics and voltage regulation and an address or ID number not conflicting with any other device on the bus. TI's expansion box could hold 7 cards (plus the interface card) but the computer had more than 7 peripheral addresses available because other devices could be connected between the console and the firehose cable, or a Y splitter could be used to connect two expansion boxes - if none of the cards in both boxes had the same address. What today's technology could bring to a driverless system is devices could be installed without an address and the host computer could program them to not conflict. DSR's could be flash updated, as they can on some 3rd party cards being made for the 99-4/A in recent years. Would've been nice if IBM had copied TI's DSR system for the 5150 PC! Computers would be so much easier to setup because there would be no drivers to find and download or go obsolete. TI had perfectly functioning plug and play 18 years before Microsoft came up with the term. They sort-of did with MCA but every card required a setup disk- but after setup there was no way anything with the operating system could foul up the hardware configuration. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On 6/6/2015 6:46 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: However, I agree that connectors are a big problem in general when it comes to computers. Only few capes address this problem an come with pin headers to connect sensors/motors. However, that is one problem we tried to address with the SandyBox and the different controller boxes (Lin-Ctrl stepper driver, Print-Ctrl for the 3D printer) . They come with standard Molex connectors to connect sensors, switches an motors. We are planning a future version of the SandyBox to address this problem. So if you have ideas please share them. A Beagle Bone cape that breaks out everything to some currently available card edge connector so that peripherals can also use the same edge to plug into a backplane? XMos has done something like that with PCIe x1 connectors for their slice card peripherals which are NOT PCIe devices. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Friday 05 June 2015 05:15:12 Mark Wendt wrote: On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Gregg Eshelman g_ala...@yahoo.com wrote: On 6/4/2015 12:26 PM, Mark Wendt wrote: OK, perhaps I should have said another computer, rather than another PC. Androids are computers. Still, you need another machine to run the machine that runs the machine. Androids are humanoid robots. ;) Android is an operating system. Picky, picky, picky... ;-) I should know better, having been a Unix/Linux/VMS sysadmin for the last 25 years or so. ;-) One thing I haven't noted yet, no on has mentioned the price of this little box? Cheers, Gene Heskett No price listed for it anywhere on the web site. In fact, no prices for anything on the web site, nor any way to order something from them. Asks you to log in to your account to even find a dealer. http://www.thecooltool.com/en/ -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: One thing I haven't noted yet, no on has mentioned the price of this little box? Gene - I don't know about the SandyBox, but my BeagleBoneBlack, with parallel cape plus LinuxCNC (MachineKit) on an SDCard was about $80.00 US from Xylotex. All I needed to ad was a power supply, correct HDMI cable, keyboard with mouse, and I was able to transition my little Unimat CNC lathe away from an Intel D525MW based system quite easily. The only issue I currently have is that the Gecko G540 needs a 10khz signal sent to it as an i'm here signal, and I've disabled this for now. I can access this via keyboard/mouse/monitor or via my (wired) network. John. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Sandy box
On 5 June 2015 at 16:47, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Friday 05 June 2015 09:27:10 Mark Wendt wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Friday 05 June 2015 05:15:12 Mark Wendt wrote: On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Gregg Eshelman g_ala...@yahoo.com wrote: On 6/4/2015 12:26 PM, Mark Wendt wrote: OK, perhaps I should have said another computer, rather than another PC. Androids are computers. Still, you need another machine to run the machine that runs the machine. Androids are humanoid robots. ;) Android is an operating system. Picky, picky, picky... ;-) I should know better, having been a Unix/Linux/VMS sysadmin for the last 25 years or so. ;-) One thing I haven't noted yet, no on has mentioned the price of this little box? Cheers, Gene Heskett No price listed for it anywhere on the web site. In fact, no prices for anything on the web site, nor any way to order something from them. Asks you to log in to your account to even find a dealer. That raises red flags for me, so I didn't. Same. I really can't be bothered with sites that don't list prices. Bad thinking on their part. Regards Roland -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
The thing about CNC control or industrial automation is that there isn't really that much data being passed. It is much more about latency and consistency (jitter) if you want a high performance CNC tool. Industrial controls that run on ethernet tend to be non-standard implementations that behave differently to give consistent timing of the messages. There also tends to be a lot of wasted bandwidth capacity due to the small amount of data being transfered. To have a remote IO block with 8 or 16 IO bits, that is only 1 or 2 bytes. An ethernet frame is 1518 bytes. Since the information is time sensitive, you can't wait to consolidate more data before you send the message to the bus, so your transfer efficiency is 0.06%, or 0.12%. It is possible to saturate an ethernet link with surprisingly little useful data being transfered. There is also nothing cheap about the industrial ethernet equipement, and putting non-industrial protocol devices on the same network can destroy the guaranteed latency that industrial ethernet is supposed to provide. Industrial ethernet is good for consolidating 100's of IO points that are physically far away from the master controller. Then your utilization goes up. Hundred's of discrete wires are replaced with one ethernet cable. For a standard CNC 3 axis mill, ethernet remote IO probably doesn't make sense for anything in motion control. For a slower machine with lower precision requirements, the latency can be higher. If standard ethernet performance allows adequate latency, then it certainly gets easier to use. On 2015-06-05 11:24, Przemek Klosowski wrote: But the parallel backplanes are gone and replaced by serial links, such as Ethernet or USB. A lot of industrial computers used the ISA bus, which was 8 MBps, or VME bus which originally was 40 MBps. This is easily matched and exceeded by common Ethernet links today! and so much easier to put things together using simple cabling vs limited capacity backplane boxes. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 12:17 AM, Rafael ra...@linwin.com wrote: Good computer architecture includes a backplane, passive or active. Digital computers were among the most popular low cost industrial computers many years ago. Some used 4 slot backplanes, others more with possibility to use expanders for additional interfaces. Some interfaces used only part of the bus to save space. But the parallel backplanes are gone and replaced by serial links, such as Ethernet or USB. A lot of industrial computers used the ISA bus, which was 8 MBps, or VME bus which originally was 40 MBps. This is easily matched and exceeded by common Ethernet links today! and so much easier to put things together using simple cabling vs limited capacity backplane boxes. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
2015-06-05 12:13 GMT+03:00 Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com: Dunno. It runs LinuxCNC so I would presume you could only run one instance of whatever control GUI you use. Well, it runs Machinekit and remote GUIs is one of the major areas that has been changed, compared to LinuxCNC. AFAIK client app will run one remote GUI (Machineface or Cetus are 2 options at the moment) at a time, but you can switch from one machine to another - the client app displays all the Machinekit instances it has found on the network and you can choose, which one to connect to. Viesturs -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: One thing I haven't noted yet, no on has mentioned the price of this little box? Cheers, Gene Heskett No price listed for it anywhere on the web site. In fact, no prices for anything on the web site, nor any way to order something from them. Asks you to log in to your account to even find a dealer. That raises red flags for me, so I didn't. http://www.thecooltool.com/en/ Cheers, Gene Heskett Same here. Mark -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Viesturs Lācis viesturs.la...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-06-05 12:13 GMT+03:00 Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com: Dunno. It runs LinuxCNC so I would presume you could only run one instance of whatever control GUI you use. Well, it runs Machinekit and remote GUIs is one of the major areas that has been changed, compared to LinuxCNC. AFAIK client app will run one remote GUI (Machineface or Cetus are 2 options at the moment) at a time, but you can switch from one machine to another - the client app displays all the Machinekit instances it has found on the network and you can choose, which one to connect to. Viesturs Then what exactly is the USB cable being used for? -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Przemek Klosowski przemek.klosow...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote: Connect a USB cable between the tablet and the BBB, and have them talk to each other by network transport over USB, including doing remote X protocol to the server on the tablet. I described that couple of weeks ago in this list. Ah. Must have missed that post. So I took an Android 7 tablet (Azpen A700) that I got for $35 from MicroCenter, installed X11 server from the Play Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=x.org.serverhl=en and ran a test program (attached) talking to the X server on the tablet via USB: DISPLAY=192.168.1.11:0 wish testbuttons.tcl It runs fine, although the mouse interaction is awkward (have to slide the cursor to the target first before tapping to click). Neat! Getting the X11 to play over USB is a pretty slick idea. No video bandwidth problems? -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote: Then what exactly is the USB cable being used for? Connect a USB cable between the tablet and the BBB, and have them talk to each other by network transport over USB, including doing remote X protocol to the server on the tablet. I described that couple of weeks ago in this list. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:36 PM, Przemek Klosowski przemek.klosow...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote: Then what exactly is the USB cable being used for? Connect a USB cable between the tablet and the BBB, and have them talk to each other by network transport over USB, including doing remote X protocol to the server on the tablet. I described that couple of weeks ago in this list. Ah. Must have missed that post. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com wrote: Connect a USB cable between the tablet and the BBB, and have them talk to each other by network transport over USB, including doing remote X protocol to the server on the tablet. I described that couple of weeks ago in this list. Ah. Must have missed that post. So I took an Android 7 tablet (Azpen A700) that I got for $35 from MicroCenter, installed X11 server from the Play Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=x.org.serverhl=en and ran a test program (attached) talking to the X server on the tablet via USB: DISPLAY=192.168.1.11:0 wish testbuttons.tcl It runs fine, although the mouse interaction is awkward (have to slide the cursor to the target first before tapping to click). -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
2015-06-05 21:58 GMT+02:00 Przemek Klosowski przemek.klosow...@gmail.com: So I took an Android 7 tablet (Azpen A700) that I got for $35 from MicroCenter, installed X11 server from the Play Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=x.org.serverhl=en and ran a test program (attached) talking to the X server on the tablet via USB: DISPLAY=192.168.1.11:0 wish testbuttons.tcl It runs fine, although the mouse interaction is awkward (have to slide the cursor to the target first before tapping to click). I'm on your side Przemek. I remember a year or two ago this discussion was a kind of a hot topic after a test I did (and someone else also made it as well) where I had different computers for running the machine and the GUI. I was frankly considered being an idiot by some. While I am since then happy strolling along being a lesser smart person, I visited a partner's factory. It turns out that they run ALL THEIR MACHINES REMOTELY. Tooling centers, lathes and injection molders. Everything controlled from the desk 4 feet from the coffee machine. And now I am looking into investing in a new injection molder, all three brands we look at has VNC remote control as standard. I helped a friend making a big router for profiling plywood sheets. He runs the machine GUI on a laptop with touch screen and can control the router from the other end of the table 10 feet away. He is also kind of stupid considering he runs two computers (less running back and forth is not taken into account). Why bother making a touch screen setup for a PC when a touch screen laptop or tablet is dirt cheap? Letting the box, BBB or whatever you like controlling the machine and running the GUI somewhere else is pretty obvious to me. You can get a pretty good tablet on Amazon for $70 USD (Dragon Touch 9 screen, quad core). My kids have them for gaming. They run VNC just fine. With that said, I'll keep on strolling as an idiot. But now with the fact that more or less the entire industry is accepting dual computer setups. And the don't-trust-wireless-machines-argument was pouring down the drain back then too. Let me re-post a picture: http://www.hiab.com/globalassets/inriver/resources/544ea8hip_se12_008ret_1300x845.jpg -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On 6 June 2015 at 00:31, Sven Wesley svenne.d...@gmail.com wrote: Letting the box, BBB or whatever you like controlling the machine and running the GUI somewhere else is pretty obvious to me. It doesn't have to be an either/or. I have mentioned this before, but it's a useful thing to do. Even with the machine controller and GUI local to the machine, you can still open a remote HAL session. Quite often with a long job I will set the machine going in the workshop then go back indoors to do something else. ssh -Y andypugh@mill.local opens a remote terminal session to that machine. the -Y enables X-forwarding. (-X might be more obvious, and might work for you) halcmd -kf opens a remote HAL session. loadusr halmeter -s pin motion.program-line opens a little window on the machine I am sitting at (typically my Mac in the living room) that goes to 0 when waiting for a tool change, or finished, and increments regularly if things are going well. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On 6/5/2015 10:06 AM, Roland Jollivet wrote: Same. I really can't be bothered with sites that don't list prices. Bad thinking on their part. Regards Roland Any place that says to contact them for a quote, or worse, create an account and login on the site to get a quote, does not get my business. Just put the prices on the site! If they need to change the prices they can simply... change the prices. With the right setup it can be as simple as editing a spreadsheet then saving as a CSV and uploading to the right place on their server. Also annoying are sites with catalogs that not only are just a bunch of PDFs but are also set to force you to have to save the PDF instead of viewing it in the browser. They still think it's the 1990's or something... --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On 06/05/2015 01:18 AM, Alexander Rössler wrote: Rafael writes: On 06/04/2015 07:13 AM, Ron Bean wrote: If you need one computer to see the GUI and one for realtime effects, why not just start out with a real computer and load Linux and LinuxCNC on it? snip In my HW support experience I came across PDP-11 systems running in steel mills, nuclear and hydro power plants, factories, etc. with little or no graphics. Most used VT100, some used more advanced color terminals. Systems with 32kW(ord) or 64kW RAM controlled huge machinery with RTOS on much slower CPU than we have today. The future are distributed systems. Distributed setups are industrial standard and are used everywhere from automotive to automation industry. CAN and Ethernet are used these days to distribute neither one is suitable for strict real time. functionality across different ECUs. The BBB is fine when it comes to CAN but an even stronger platform from TI is coming up: the BeagleBoard X15 with Gigabit Ethernet support Don't mix computer BUS and cabling. Two different things. Some cables do act as traditional extend bus but none at the length of an airplane or HMMVE. What good is Gigabit Ethernet when you need to connect a keypad, a switch, accelerometer, or optical sensor to BBB? Ethernet is not a bus, it's one of communications peripherals. On the other edge of the spectrum we have another low cost solution that is currently funded on kickstarter C.H.I.P. a 9$ dollar Linux computer with Bluetooth and WLAN = a cheap solution to connect sensors. This is one of a kind toys that don't make a standard! Nor would anybody serious use it for a CNC machine. I even heard about things like fly-by-wireless. Which boils down to removing the wired buses inside a plane. So face the facts: Big monolithic computer setups will soon be banned to server farms. Most airplanes and modern military vehicles use computers based on decades of developments on VME bus and it's derivatives because they need a lot of connections. That likely includes CompactPCI, it's emerging CompactPCI Serial, and VPX. As tiny lasers are getting cheaper, cost of building optical bus and compatible peripherals will become more common in the near future so we'll see even more data buses. Every computer in existence has a bus, available or not, for connections to additional peripherals. There is a bus on BBB, RaspberryPi, Radxa, and other little SBCs to add peripherals. My comment was about the problem with every little SBC having different connectors and their positions on the board while all are using sandwich mechanical architecture that cannot be expanded easily. Based on what I've seen at Embedded computers trade show this year I can easily say that computer data bus won't go away any time soon. PCIe, VME, VPX, CompactPCI, PC104 and on and on. Companies are clearly commiting to support for advanced buses for the next 20 years or more. and a PCI slot for a GPU. Another solution might be something like a BBB that plugs into a PCI slot in a generic PC. Either one eliminates the USB connection, which is the real problem. Good idea assuming there would be a volume to keep the costs down. IMO it would be better if ARM architecture based universal bus would emerge for use in small embedded systems under $100 so that vendors would be encouraged to build controllers with Mesa card like functionality and other interfaces to handle digital and analog IO connections. This thread brought up interesting ideas and comments; good starting point for a kickstart project ;-) -- Rafael -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Friday 05 June 2015 09:27:10 Mark Wendt wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Friday 05 June 2015 05:15:12 Mark Wendt wrote: On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Gregg Eshelman g_ala...@yahoo.com wrote: On 6/4/2015 12:26 PM, Mark Wendt wrote: OK, perhaps I should have said another computer, rather than another PC. Androids are computers. Still, you need another machine to run the machine that runs the machine. Androids are humanoid robots. ;) Android is an operating system. Picky, picky, picky... ;-) I should know better, having been a Unix/Linux/VMS sysadmin for the last 25 years or so. ;-) One thing I haven't noted yet, no on has mentioned the price of this little box? Cheers, Gene Heskett No price listed for it anywhere on the web site. In fact, no prices for anything on the web site, nor any way to order something from them. Asks you to log in to your account to even find a dealer. That raises red flags for me, so I didn't. http://www.thecooltool.com/en/ -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Friday 05 June 2015 08:57:24 John Alexander Stewart wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Gene Heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: One thing I haven't noted yet, no on has mentioned the price of this little box? Gene - I don't know about the SandyBox, but my BeagleBoneBlack, with parallel cape plus LinuxCNC (MachineKit) on an SDCard was about $80.00 US from Xylotex. All I needed to ad was a power supply, correct HDMI cable, keyboard with mouse, and I was able to transition my little Unimat CNC lathe away from an Intel D525MW based system quite easily. Is that D525MW now surplus and for sale? Since I am familiar with it, and the 5i25, I'd be interested in that, w/wo a 5i25. The only issue I currently have is that the Gecko G540 needs a 10khz signal sent to it as an i'm here signal, and I've disabled this for now. I'll be using a pair of 2M542's and an 872 driver, kit with motors and psu's from fleabay. Stuff I am familiar with. Ditto the ball screw $699 kit. That stuff s/b here late next week. I can access this via keyboard/mouse/monitor or via my (wired) network. John. Thanks John. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Sandy box
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Viesturs Lācis viesturs.la...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-06-04 15:32 GMT+03:00 Mark Wendt wendt.m...@gmail.com: Sounds like they're addressing one problem by effectively creating another problem. If you need one computer to see the GUI and one for realtime effects, why not just start out with a real computer and load Linux and LinuxCNC on it? Because you do not need PC to run the GUI. There already is an app for Androids (available in google's play store, do not know about apple devices) so that you can run the GUI on smartphone or tablet as well - I already have tested this on my smartphone and Machinekit, running on BBB. Conclusion - 5 inch display is too small, but it did work (well, to be honest, it is recommended for tablets rather than smartphones and now I know why). Viesturs OK, perhaps I should have said another computer, rather than another PC. Androids are computers. Still, you need another machine to run the machine that runs the machine. Mark -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
