Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
2014-11-27 0:47 GMT+02:00 John Kasunich : > > OK, I found the message where you linked to the motor instruction manual. > > Parameter 01-00 MUST be set to 18. All of the other settings (0 to 17) are > for 50 or 60Hz motors > and will badly overvoltage a 200Hz motor. > > Parameter 01-02 should be set to 200Hz > > Parameter 01-03 should be set to 100% (assuming that the line voltage is the > same as the nominal motor voltage) > > Parameters 01-04 thru 01-09 allow the V/Hz curve to be modified. For now, I > would keep it linear. Set them > as follows: > > 01-04 = 100Hz > 01-05 = 50% > 01-06 = 50Hz > 01-07 = 25% > 01-08 = 10Hz > 01-09 = 5% > > Parameter 01-10 is for low speed boost to overcome IR drops in the windings. > I would start by setting it to zero. > If you need more low-speed torque, increase it cautiously - I would not > exceed 2%. > > I would set 01-11 to 0.0Hz > I'm not sure about 01-12 - probably would leave it at the default value, > whatever that is > > John John, thank you! I owe you at least few beers! It works with one and also both motors attached to VFD. Thanks to everybody, who shared their thoughts and tried to solve my issue! Yes, I will have separate overcurrent protection relay for each motor to protect them. They have only 3 pairs of contacts - for motor phases, no auxiliary contacts, so I do not see an easy way to turn off/stop VFD, when any of them would trip. But operator will definitely see that material is not passing through normally and stop the device quickly. Viesturs -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
On 27 November 2014 at 03:12, Przemek Klosowski wrote: > On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:04 PM, wrote: >> Put a circuit breaker in line to each motor. > > I think this is bad advice---VFDs react badly to interruption in the > VFD-motor circuit, especially at high currents. You would probably want each individual motor-overload trip to turn off the VFD and all the motors anyway. (and halt the system) I don't think overload trips break the three phases, they brake auxiliary contacts. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
On 11/26/2014 8:16 PM, p...@wpnet.us wrote: > Not when running multiple motors from a single VFD. I've read whitepapers > from VFD manufacturers showing sample configurations with something like > eight motors on a single large VFD, each with it's own OCP. I think the days > of loose motor connections blowing up a VFD are in the past and current > designs are more resilient anyway. What they don't work with is magnetic contactors. Those need pure and smooth, full frequency power to kick in. While first trying out the VFD on the Monarch, I had to hold the contactor closed with a wooden paint stir stick until it got up to speed. Then it would work until stopping the motor. As it dropped below around 50Hz the contactor would open. So no more contactor in the circuit. The VFD is wired directly to the motor. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Not when running multiple motors from a single VFD. I've read whitepapers from VFD manufacturers showing sample configurations with something like eight motors on a single large VFD, each with it's own OCP. I think the days of loose motor connections blowing up a VFD are in the past and current designs are more resilient anyway. --Original Mail-- From: "Przemek Klosowski" To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 22:12:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:04 PM, wrote: > Put a circuit breaker in line to each motor. I think this is bad advice---VFDs react badly to interruption in the VFD-motor circuit, especially at high currents. You should rely on VFD's current limits instead. -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 10:04 PM, wrote: > Put a circuit breaker in line to each motor. I think this is bad advice---VFDs react badly to interruption in the VFD-motor circuit, especially at high currents. You should rely on VFD's current limits instead. -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Since nearly all the features are just firmware in the VFD, eliminating them wouldn't save any money. Every VFD I've worked with comes out of the box pre-set as simply as you indicate, just connect it to a normal three phase motor, power and press the run button and you'll get something like a 2 second ramp up to 60Hz (US) and that's it. Press the stop button and it will stop with a 2 sec ramp down. You don't have to change any settings unless you want to do something different like set it for 2 or 3 wire remote control, external 0-10V speed control, etc. In the case of trying to run something like a high spped spindle you will need to change a lot of settings, but not for ordinary motor operation. --Original Mail-- From: "Gregg Eshelman" To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:35:45 -0700 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble On 11/26/2014 5:59 AM, Viesturs LÄcis wrote: > Yes. Is there a way to run them in series? > Currently I am trying to get one motor to work - still the same issue > of VFD not going higher than 8-9 hz. In series each motor will see 1/2 the voltage. In parallel they get the same voltage but only 1/2 the amperage. As others have stated you *can not use* any feedback sensing such as sensorless vector. IT WILL NOT WORK with two motors on a single VFD. Study the VFD's manual to find how to turn off all the sensing and feedback functions. You probably won't even be able to use the VFD's overcurrent protection. Put a circuit breaker in line to each motor. Yet another use case for a dead simple VFD or phase converter with next to zero fancy functions, which if such is available costs more than the VFDs with 100+ configurable settings. Pay more to NOT get things you do not want or need. :P What I'd like to have in a solid state phase converter. 1. Not variable. Just a switch or jumper for 50/60Hz. Possibly with the option to convert between those two frequencies in case of RPM critical equipment. 2. No ramp up/down. Or a fixed time ramp with switch or jumper to disable. 3. Remote switch terminals with switch or jumper to configure for start/stop or FWD/Stop/REV switches. Stop also connects to E-stop circuit. Make the voltage right for computer/digital control. TTL level? 3.3V? Whatever is required. Perhaps a switch or jumper to select. 4. Display, one red LED and one green LED. Solid green = All good. Solid red = uh-oh. Press and hold the built in Run/Stop and Reset buttons to blink trouble codes that have a chart printed on or molded into the housing. Dead simple, caveman easy to install. Flip 4 or 5 switches, connect wires and done. Not one gee whiz look what this can do feature most people will never ever use because their old machine or modern day new build does not *need* variable speed. On my Monarch 12CK with 1940's vintage GE 3HP motor I never vary the speed from 60Hz but had to deal with a PITA to get the settings right TECO VFD. Tweak and adjust over and over until it would soften the start just right to quit popping the overcurrent protection. Couldn't get anywhere with it until I switched it from sensorless vector to Volts/Hertz mode. At least it saves the settings in non-volatile memory so I can shut off the power when the lathe isn't in use. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
On 11/26/2014 5:59 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > Yes. Is there a way to run them in series? > Currently I am trying to get one motor to work - still the same issue > of VFD not going higher than 8-9 hz. In series each motor will see 1/2 the voltage. In parallel they get the same voltage but only 1/2 the amperage. As others have stated you *can not use* any feedback sensing such as sensorless vector. IT WILL NOT WORK with two motors on a single VFD. Study the VFD's manual to find how to turn off all the sensing and feedback functions. You probably won't even be able to use the VFD's overcurrent protection. Put a circuit breaker in line to each motor. Yet another use case for a dead simple VFD or phase converter with next to zero fancy functions, which if such is available costs more than the VFDs with 100+ configurable settings. Pay more to NOT get things you do not want or need. :P What I'd like to have in a solid state phase converter. 1. Not variable. Just a switch or jumper for 50/60Hz. Possibly with the option to convert between those two frequencies in case of RPM critical equipment. 2. No ramp up/down. Or a fixed time ramp with switch or jumper to disable. 3. Remote switch terminals with switch or jumper to configure for start/stop or FWD/Stop/REV switches. Stop also connects to E-stop circuit. Make the voltage right for computer/digital control. TTL level? 3.3V? Whatever is required. Perhaps a switch or jumper to select. 4. Display, one red LED and one green LED. Solid green = All good. Solid red = uh-oh. Press and hold the built in Run/Stop and Reset buttons to blink trouble codes that have a chart printed on or molded into the housing. Dead simple, caveman easy to install. Flip 4 or 5 switches, connect wires and done. Not one gee whiz look what this can do feature most people will never ever use because their old machine or modern day new build does not *need* variable speed. On my Monarch 12CK with 1940's vintage GE 3HP motor I never vary the speed from 60Hz but had to deal with a PITA to get the settings right TECO VFD. Tweak and adjust over and over until it would soften the start just right to quit popping the overcurrent protection. Couldn't get anywhere with it until I switched it from sensorless vector to Volts/Hertz mode. At least it saves the settings in non-volatile memory so I can shut off the power when the lathe isn't in use. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014, at 05:32 PM, John Kasunich wrote: > Nicklas may be on to something here. > > Have you entered the nameplate data from the motor into the drive? > > If the drive thinks it is a 230V 50Hz motor, but it is really a 230V 200Hz > motor, you have a problem. > The drive will apply four times the proper voltage to the motor, which will > make the motor draw a > lot more current than it should. Then the drive current limit will try to > prevent overcurrent by slowing > down - which is why you don't get over 8Hz. > > Slowing down to reduce load is a perfectly reasonable thing for the drive to > do, but if the problem > is that the V/Hz curve is wrong, then it won't help. > > Can you point us at an online manual for the drive? I thougth you posted > info for both the drive > and the motor but I'm not seeing it when I read back in the thread. > > John Kasunich > OK, I found the message where you linked to the motor instruction manual. Parameter 01-00 MUST be set to 18. All of the other settings (0 to 17) are for 50 or 60Hz motors and will badly overvoltage a 200Hz motor. Parameter 01-02 should be set to 200Hz Parameter 01-03 should be set to 100% (assuming that the line voltage is the same as the nominal motor voltage) Parameters 01-04 thru 01-09 allow the V/Hz curve to be modified. For now, I would keep it linear. Set them as follows: 01-04 = 100Hz 01-05 = 50% 01-06 = 50Hz 01-07 = 25% 01-08 = 10Hz 01-09 = 5% Parameter 01-10 is for low speed boost to overcome IR drops in the windings. I would start by setting it to zero. If you need more low-speed torque, increase it cautiously - I would not exceed 2%. I would set 01-11 to 0.0Hz I'm not sure about 01-12 - probably would leave it at the default value, whatever that is John -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Nicklas may be on to something here. Have you entered the nameplate data from the motor into the drive? If the drive thinks it is a 230V 50Hz motor, but it is really a 230V 200Hz motor, you have a problem. The drive will apply four times the proper voltage to the motor, which will make the motor draw a lot more current than it should. Then the drive current limit will try to prevent overcurrent by slowing down - which is why you don't get over 8Hz. Slowing down to reduce load is a perfectly reasonable thing for the drive to do, but if the problem is that the V/Hz curve is wrong, then it won't help. Can you point us at an online manual for the drive? I thougth you posted info for both the drive and the motor but I'm not seeing it when I read back in the thread. John Kasunich On Wed, Nov 26, 2014, at 04:26 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > 2014-11-26 23:11 GMT+02:00 Karlsson & Wang : > > A higher frequency motor will need either lower voltage or higher frequency > > otherwise it will overheat. If the 2kW motor is a 50Hz motor while the > > larger is 200kW it need a different V/F curve. > > > > Ok, thanks, I think I understood, what you mean. I will try to RTFM to > lower to voltage curve and then do some tests. > > Viesturs > -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Viesturs, I suspect that your drive is monitoring the current being sent to the motor and "adjusting" things automatically and failing in that regard. You may need a dumber V/Hz drive. Either that or turn off more "features" if that is possible via the drive parameters. I believe that the AC drives sold with the typical high freq Chinese spindle drives are very dumb. Dave On 11/26/2014 4:26 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > 2014-11-26 23:11 GMT+02:00 Karlsson & Wang : >> A higher frequency motor will need either lower voltage or higher frequency >> otherwise it will overheat. If the 2kW motor is a 50Hz motor while the >> larger is 200kW it need a different V/F curve. >> > Ok, thanks, I think I understood, what you mean. I will try to RTFM to > lower to voltage curve and then do some tests. > > Viesturs > > -- > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
2014-11-26 23:11 GMT+02:00 Karlsson & Wang : > A higher frequency motor will need either lower voltage or higher frequency > otherwise it will overheat. If the 2kW motor is a 50Hz motor while the larger > is 200kW it need a different V/F curve. > Ok, thanks, I think I understood, what you mean. I will try to RTFM to lower to voltage curve and then do some tests. Viesturs -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
A higher frequency motor will need either lower voltage or higher frequency otherwise it will overheat. If the 2kW motor is a 50Hz motor while the larger is 200kW it need a different V/F curve. Nicklas Karlsson On Wed, 26 Nov 2014 22:51:59 +0200 Viesturs Lācis wrote: > 2014-11-26 22:30 GMT+02:00 andy pugh : > > On 26 November 2014 at 18:50, Karlsson & Wang > > wrote: > >> High voltage on low frequency will overheat an induction motor. > > > > I am pretty sure that Viesturs knows this. His question is why his VFD > > won't go above 8Hz. > > > > Yes! Thanks, Andy! > I just do not understand, why it does not work with those spindle > motors (I am now trying to run one motor at a time), while the same > motor works with a smaller, 2kW VFD. This 11 kW VFD works with > "normal" 0,55 kW 4-pole motor (attached to gearbox), so I do not get > this. I tend to agree with Jon about the low inductivity - low > inductivity means high current and that is what heats the motor up - > ok, I get that. But why does 2 kW VFD works with this motor, but 11 kW > does not? Are those current sensing elements less sensitive that > bigger VFD cannot measure changes of current in motor as needed? Then > I guess that attaching 2 motors in parallel should improve it. > > Ron, of course, initial phase alignment of motors would not match. > Until the voltage is applied to motor and all the phases are > automagically aligned. I am certain that this is not a problem here. > > BTW it turns on and increases the frequency as expected, when no motor > is attached at all. > > The frequency command is provided by potentiometer on front panel, I > do not intend to use any kind of analog signals or communication bus > for this purpose. > > Ok, I will just try to make some video with my phone tomorrow to show it. > > Viesturs > > -- > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
2014-11-26 22:30 GMT+02:00 andy pugh : > On 26 November 2014 at 18:50, Karlsson & Wang > wrote: >> High voltage on low frequency will overheat an induction motor. > > I am pretty sure that Viesturs knows this. His question is why his VFD > won't go above 8Hz. > Yes! Thanks, Andy! I just do not understand, why it does not work with those spindle motors (I am now trying to run one motor at a time), while the same motor works with a smaller, 2kW VFD. This 11 kW VFD works with "normal" 0,55 kW 4-pole motor (attached to gearbox), so I do not get this. I tend to agree with Jon about the low inductivity - low inductivity means high current and that is what heats the motor up - ok, I get that. But why does 2 kW VFD works with this motor, but 11 kW does not? Are those current sensing elements less sensitive that bigger VFD cannot measure changes of current in motor as needed? Then I guess that attaching 2 motors in parallel should improve it. Ron, of course, initial phase alignment of motors would not match. Until the voltage is applied to motor and all the phases are automagically aligned. I am certain that this is not a problem here. BTW it turns on and increases the frequency as expected, when no motor is attached at all. The frequency command is provided by potentiometer on front panel, I do not intend to use any kind of analog signals or communication bus for this purpose. Ok, I will just try to make some video with my phone tomorrow to show it. Viesturs -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
On 26 November 2014 at 18:50, Karlsson & Wang wrote: > High voltage on low frequency will overheat an induction motor. I am pretty sure that Viesturs knows this. His question is why his VFD won't go above 8Hz. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
2014-11-26 19:23 GMT+02:00 Roland Jollivet : > You definitely cooking them because the frequency is too low. > Probably. But the problem is that VFD does not go higher than 8-9 hz. Do you have any idea, why and how to solve that? Viesturs -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
High voltage on low frequency will overheat an induction motor. It is possible to use flux weakening and run on lower voltage with lower load but if they are overloaded because of two low available torque I think overcurrent may be possible. Nicklas Karlsson On Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:48:43 -0600 Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/26/2014 03:51 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > > Jon, could you, please, share some link for such kind of > > inductor? I am looking at website of local seller of > > electronics stuff, I do not see any inductors with 9A > > rated current and anything above 22 uH inductivity. > The inductors I have were custom made for an old project. > They are what is called > bobbin or spool inductors, they look like a ferrite spool > wrapped with wire. > > This is the series : > http://www.rencousa.com/products/rl-1256 > > The specific inductors I'm using are 1.67 mH, but I'm not > sure it is real critical. What this > does is slow down the rate of current rise when the VFDs > transistors are on. > > > Jon > > -- > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
On 11/26/2014 03:51 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > Jon, could you, please, share some link for such kind of > inductor? I am looking at website of local seller of > electronics stuff, I do not see any inductors with 9A > rated current and anything above 22 uH inductivity. The inductors I have were custom made for an old project. They are what is called bobbin or spool inductors, they look like a ferrite spool wrapped with wire. This is the series : http://www.rencousa.com/products/rl-1256 The specific inductors I'm using are 1.67 mH, but I'm not sure it is real critical. What this does is slow down the rate of current rise when the VFDs transistors are on. Jon -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] VFD trouble
You definitely cooking them because the frequency is too low. Roland On 26 November 2014 at 17:04, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > 2014-11-26 15:54 GMT+02:00 alex chiosso : > > Hi Viesturs . > > Could you please specify the motor data and the VFD data (manufacturers + > > material code) ? > > I never seen any VFD to control 2 motors in "series" connection . > > The high speed motors are equivalent to asincronous or they are not ? > > A standard VFD (V/F or sensor less vector) can control this kind of > motors ? > > Maybe you have to tweak some parameters into the VFD (such as electrical > > motor data) to best fit the electrical motor characteristics . > > > > Spindle motors: Elte TMPE4 14/2, 12000 RPM, 3,7 kW > > http://www.eltesrl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=48&lang=en > > VFD: Teco E510-415-H3F > https://www.inverterdrive.com/file/Teco-E510-Manual-EN-v2 > > Yes, these motors are asynchronous motors. I tried tweaking VFD > parameters, but without any luck. The same settings work for "normal" > 0,55 kW motor, those spindles work fine with 2kW VFD I have on my > router, but together the large VFD and those spindles (even when one > spindle is attached at a time) do not work. > > I will try to find some inductors to try Jon's suggestion. I would > appreciate any help in finding them (seller within EU is preferred). > > Viesturs > > > -- > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
I found some hints from a electrospindle manufacturer about VFD programming to get the motor working : > When the inverter is connected with the motor it must be remembered to > modify some inverter parameters to allow the motor work properly and not to > be damaged. > > *Warning:* > >- feeding the motor with a wrong feed curve can irreparably damage the >motor in a few seconds. >- the factory setting of every inverter must be modified to allow it >to work with a HF motor/electrospindle. > > *Most important parameters:* > >- *Base Frequency (point A):* it is the frequency to which it >correspond the maximun voltage acceptable by the motor (base voltage). The >factory setting of this parameter is usually 50Hz this parameter must be >setted equal to the base frequency of the motor (usually 100Hz, 200Hz, >300Hz, 400Hz depends on the motor type). The value of the base frequency of >your motor is written on the nameplate or in the instruction sheet. >- *Base Input Voltage:* it is the maximum input voltage to which the >motor can work. Generally this value is 220V or 380V, it depens on the >motor wiring. >- *Max Frequency (point B):* it is the maximum frequency to which the >motor can work. It can correspond with the base frequency or it can be >higher depending on the bearing type and on the balancing grade. >- *Auto tuning functions:* to avoid any damaging of the motor we >suggest not to use the auto tuning functions of your inverter but manually >set up the inverter parameters with a linear [V/F] curve. > > *Warning:* please refer to the inverter manufacturer manual to correctly > install the inverter. > As Belli Button pointed out. Alex On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Belli Button wrote: > I think the spindle manufacturers expressly forbid auto tune. Try setting > the inverter to 400Hz, this indicates to the inverter that it is a low > inductance motor and will be able to control the current better, remember > to > set both base frequency and max frequency. > > > -Original Message- > From: alex chiosso [mailto:achio...@gmail.com] > Sent: 26 November 2014 17:40 > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble > > This VFD has also a Auto tune function , did you tried it ? > > Alex > > On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:34 PM, alex chiosso wrote: > > > Hi Viesturs. > > How did you connect the motor phases (on the motor terminal blocks) > > star or triangle ? > > The motor seems to be a 2 poles (12000rpm at 200Hz) and the phase > > voltage is 220VAC so you should connect the motor phases to "star" type > isn't it ? > > Are you driving the speed reference with an analog input or via a > > digital input o via the VFD keypad ? > > Are you sure that you're giving the right reference value to the VFD ? > > > > Alex > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:19 PM, wrote: > > > >> The VFD manufacturers have white papers specifically covering driving > >> multiple motors from one larger VFD so it's absolutely a supported > >> configuration. You need separate overcurrent protection for each > >> connected motor though since the VFD's OCP can't work to protect an > >> individual motor in such a configuration. > >> > >> > >> --Original Mail-- > >> From: "Ron Ginger" > >> To: > >> Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 07:38:27 -0500 > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble > >> > >> Are you trying to run 2 motors wired in parallel to one VFD? I dont > >> think that will work. Their rotors will never be in phase so any > >> feedback generated is going to be really strange to the VFD. > >> > >> ron ginger > >> > >> On 11/25/2014 10:30 PM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: > >> >>I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that > >> >>I have 11 kW VFD. > >> > >> > >> > >> - > >> - Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT > >> Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and > >> Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App > >> Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for > >> billion-dollar corporations, FREE > >> > >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg > >> .clktrk _
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
I think the spindle manufacturers expressly forbid auto tune. Try setting the inverter to 400Hz, this indicates to the inverter that it is a low inductance motor and will be able to control the current better, remember to set both base frequency and max frequency. -Original Message- From: alex chiosso [mailto:achio...@gmail.com] Sent: 26 November 2014 17:40 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble This VFD has also a Auto tune function , did you tried it ? Alex On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:34 PM, alex chiosso wrote: > Hi Viesturs. > How did you connect the motor phases (on the motor terminal blocks) > star or triangle ? > The motor seems to be a 2 poles (12000rpm at 200Hz) and the phase > voltage is 220VAC so you should connect the motor phases to "star" type isn't it ? > Are you driving the speed reference with an analog input or via a > digital input o via the VFD keypad ? > Are you sure that you're giving the right reference value to the VFD ? > > Alex > > > On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:19 PM, wrote: > >> The VFD manufacturers have white papers specifically covering driving >> multiple motors from one larger VFD so it's absolutely a supported >> configuration. You need separate overcurrent protection for each >> connected motor though since the VFD's OCP can't work to protect an >> individual motor in such a configuration. >> >> >> ------Original Mail-- >> From: "Ron Ginger" >> To: >> Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 07:38:27 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble >> >> Are you trying to run 2 motors wired in parallel to one VFD? I dont >> think that will work. Their rotors will never be in phase so any >> feedback generated is going to be really strange to the VFD. >> >> ron ginger >> >> On 11/25/2014 10:30 PM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: >> >>I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that >> >>I have 11 kW VFD. >> >> >> >> - >> - Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT >> Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and >> Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App >> Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for >> billion-dollar corporations, FREE >> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg >> .clktrk ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> >> >> >> - >> - Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT >> Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and >> Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App >> Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for >> billion-dollar corporations, FREE >> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg >> .clktrk ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> > > -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
This VFD has also a Auto tune function , did you tried it ? Alex On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:34 PM, alex chiosso wrote: > Hi Viesturs. > How did you connect the motor phases (on the motor terminal blocks) star > or triangle ? > The motor seems to be a 2 poles (12000rpm at 200Hz) and the phase voltage > is 220VAC so you should connect the motor phases to "star" type isn't it ? > Are you driving the speed reference with an analog input or via a digital > input o via the VFD keypad ? > Are you sure that you're giving the right reference value to the VFD ? > > Alex > > > On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:19 PM, wrote: > >> The VFD manufacturers have white papers specifically covering driving >> multiple motors from one larger VFD so it's absolutely a supported >> configuration. You need separate overcurrent protection for each connected >> motor though since the VFD's OCP can't work to protect an individual motor >> in such a configuration. >> >> >> ------Original Mail-- >> From: "Ron Ginger" >> To: >> Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 07:38:27 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble >> >> Are you trying to run 2 motors wired in parallel to one VFD? I dont >> think that will work. Their rotors will never be in phase so any >> feedback generated is going to be really strange to the VFD. >> >> ron ginger >> >> On 11/25/2014 10:30 PM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: >> >>I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that I >> >>have 11 kW VFD. >> >> >> >> -- >> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server >> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards >> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more >> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE >> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> >> >> >> -- >> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server >> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards >> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more >> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE >> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> > > -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Hi Viesturs. How did you connect the motor phases (on the motor terminal blocks) star or triangle ? The motor seems to be a 2 poles (12000rpm at 200Hz) and the phase voltage is 220VAC so you should connect the motor phases to "star" type isn't it ? Are you driving the speed reference with an analog input or via a digital input o via the VFD keypad ? Are you sure that you're giving the right reference value to the VFD ? Alex On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:19 PM, wrote: > The VFD manufacturers have white papers specifically covering driving > multiple motors from one larger VFD so it's absolutely a supported > configuration. You need separate overcurrent protection for each connected > motor though since the VFD's OCP can't work to protect an individual motor > in such a configuration. > > > --Original Mail-- > From: "Ron Ginger" > To: > Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 07:38:27 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble > > Are you trying to run 2 motors wired in parallel to one VFD? I dont > think that will work. Their rotors will never be in phase so any > feedback generated is going to be really strange to the VFD. > > ron ginger > > On 11/25/2014 10:30 PM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: > >>I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that I > >>have 11 kW VFD. > > > > -- > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > > > -- > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
The VFD manufacturers have white papers specifically covering driving multiple motors from one larger VFD so it's absolutely a supported configuration. You need separate overcurrent protection for each connected motor though since the VFD's OCP can't work to protect an individual motor in such a configuration. --Original Mail-- From: "Ron Ginger" To: Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 07:38:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble Are you trying to run 2 motors wired in parallel to one VFD? I dont think that will work. Their rotors will never be in phase so any feedback generated is going to be really strange to the VFD. ron ginger On 11/25/2014 10:30 PM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: >>I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that I >>have 11 kW VFD. -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
2014-11-26 15:54 GMT+02:00 alex chiosso : > Hi Viesturs . > Could you please specify the motor data and the VFD data (manufacturers + > material code) ? > I never seen any VFD to control 2 motors in "series" connection . > The high speed motors are equivalent to asincronous or they are not ? > A standard VFD (V/F or sensor less vector) can control this kind of motors ? > Maybe you have to tweak some parameters into the VFD (such as electrical > motor data) to best fit the electrical motor characteristics . > Spindle motors: Elte TMPE4 14/2, 12000 RPM, 3,7 kW http://www.eltesrl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=48&lang=en VFD: Teco E510-415-H3F https://www.inverterdrive.com/file/Teco-E510-Manual-EN-v2 Yes, these motors are asynchronous motors. I tried tweaking VFD parameters, but without any luck. The same settings work for "normal" 0,55 kW motor, those spindles work fine with 2kW VFD I have on my router, but together the large VFD and those spindles (even when one spindle is attached at a time) do not work. I will try to find some inductors to try Jon's suggestion. I would appreciate any help in finding them (seller within EU is preferred). Viesturs -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Hi Viesturs . Could you please specify the motor data and the VFD data (manufacturers + material code) ? I never seen any VFD to control 2 motors in "series" connection . The high speed motors are equivalent to asincronous or they are not ? A standard VFD (V/F or sensor less vector) can control this kind of motors ? Maybe you have to tweak some parameters into the VFD (such as electrical motor data) to best fit the electrical motor characteristics . Alex On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > 2014-11-26 14:38 GMT+02:00 Ron Ginger : > > Are you trying to run 2 motors wired in parallel to one VFD? I dont > > think that will work. Their rotors will never be in phase so any > > feedback generated is going to be really strange to the VFD. > > > > Yes. Is there a way to run them in series? > Currently I am trying to get one motor to work - still the same issue > of VFD not going higher than 8-9 hz. > I like Jon's suggestion about additional inductors, I just have not > yet found anything appropriate (1mH, 9A). > > > -- > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
2014-11-26 14:38 GMT+02:00 Ron Ginger : > Are you trying to run 2 motors wired in parallel to one VFD? I dont > think that will work. Their rotors will never be in phase so any > feedback generated is going to be really strange to the VFD. > Yes. Is there a way to run them in series? Currently I am trying to get one motor to work - still the same issue of VFD not going higher than 8-9 hz. I like Jon's suggestion about additional inductors, I just have not yet found anything appropriate (1mH, 9A). -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Are you trying to run 2 motors wired in parallel to one VFD? I dont think that will work. Their rotors will never be in phase so any feedback generated is going to be really strange to the VFD. ron ginger On 11/25/2014 10:30 PM, emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote: >>I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that I >>have 11 kW VFD. -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Viesturs 2014-11-26 5:06 GMT+02:00 Jon Elson : > > It is probably getting stuck at low speed due to high > current. The larger VFD may > have a lower PWM frequency, which is causing the peak > winding current to exceed > the current limit. it suppresses frequency increase, waiting > for the motor to > "catch up" and current to go down, which never happens. So, > it gets stuck. > Sounds like the inductors may be required. > I checked VFD - it is running in V/F mode. I reduced max current to 3A, attached that fast spindle, tried, but it did not go higher than 8 hz. I did not change any settings, when attached "normal" 0,55 kW motor and it worked just fine. Jon, could you, please, share some link for such kind of inductor? I am looking at website of local seller of electronics stuff, I do not see any inductors with 9A rated current and anything above 22 uH inductivity. Viesturs -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
On 11/25/2014 02:43 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > Hello! > > I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that I > have 11 kW VFD. > The problem is that I attached motors to the drive, tried to run them, > but VFD does not increase frequency above 8-9 hertz (all the default > frequency values are 50 hertz, I checked them and set to 100 to make > sure that it not a problem). And in addition to that motors get really > hot in a minute or so. I set "no load current" to 0,2 A, max current > currently is set to 17 A (max current for each motor is 8,7A). You need to set the V/Hz slope in the VFD's settings. Every motor has some V/Hz curve, which is usually a straight-line slope. Different VFDs have different ways of making this setting. For instance, on a particular air bearing spindle motor I use, it wants 80 V at 400 Hz. The other thing is high speed motors have very low inductance. On that particular unit, I needed to add 1 mH inductors in series with all 3 motor wires. > This VFD worked fine few weeks ago with 7 kW motor. I checked the > motors today with 2kW VFD - worked just fine. > > Ok, I can decrease max current to 2-3 amps, while testing, probably > that should fix the overheating, but why does it not allow to increase > frequency? > > It is probably getting stuck at low speed due to high current. The larger VFD may have a lower PWM frequency, which is causing the peak winding current to exceed the current limit. it suppresses frequency increase, waiting for the motor to "catch up" and current to go down, which never happens. So, it gets stuck. Sounds like the inductors may be required. Jon -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
2014-11-25 23:40 GMT+02:00 John Kasunich : > > To summarize: > > 1) for more than one motor on a single drive, use V/Hz, not vector. > > 2) for a single motor, if you want to use vector, you must enter all the > motor nameplate data accurately into the drive. (Some drives have > a self-tuning process or other start-up procedure to determine the > no-load current, since that often is missing from the motor nameplate.) > > Hope this helps, > Thank you very much, John, it did help to understand few things better. Yes, I have acquired overload relays to protect motors for the exact scenario you described, I just have not yet installed them as I am just trying to get the stuff working. Viesturs -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
You do NOT want to switch to vector control. Andew was suggesting that you switch FROM vector TO V/Hz control. I agree with him. If you are going to run two motors on one VFD you must use straight V/Hz control. True vector control needs encoder feedback from the motor so that it can control the magnetic field "vectors" inside the motor. If you have two motors on the same drive, the drive can't possibly know what is going on inside each motor. One might be spinning fine and the other might be stalled, etc. Vector control can offer very good performance, but it MUST know the motor speed to do that. With two motors it will be confused. Many drives offer "sensorless vector" that doesn't need an encoder. The exact meaning of "sensorless vector" varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Those words are defined by the marketing department, there is no real standard definition of a "sensorless vector" control algorithm. But most sensorless drives still assume that there is only a single motor on the other end of the wires, and will try to figure out what that motor is doing in order to control it. Again, two motors will likely confuse the drive. Straight V/Hz control simply makes AC power of a specified frequency, and lets the motor do what it will. It isn't much different from running the motor directly from the line, except that you can change the frequency. Because V/Hz is very similar to running the motor straight from the line, you can run more than one motor. However, there are still some things to watch out for. When you are running a single motor from a VFD, you tell the VFD the rated current of the motor. If the load on the motor increases and it starts to draw too much current, the VFD will shut things down before the motor overheats. Suppose you have two motors, each rated at 7A. You connect them to a single VFD and tell the VFD that the rating is 14A. Now suppose the load on one spindle is very light, but the other one is taking a heavy cut. So heavy that the motor is overloaded, drawing 11 amps. But the other one is only drawing 2A, the total is 13A, and the VFD is perfectly happy. Until the smoke comes out of the overloaded motor. In industry, if you run two motors from one VFD, you MUST supply individual overload protection for each motor - typically an overload relay as used with conventional motor starters. The relay contacts are used as interlocks to shut things down if either motor exceeds its rated current. By the way, the "motor gets hot but doesn't develop much torque or speed" problem you described is something that can happen even with a single motor on a vector VFD if the motor data isn't accurately entered into the drive. A V/Hz drive (or straight line voltage) is simple and forgiving - you apply voltage to the motor and it draws whatever current it needs. Vector is much more complex - the drive adjusts the voltage, current, and phase of the power it sends to the motor, trying to run the motor as precisely as possible. But it relies on knowing the motor characteristics to do that. It needs to accurately know the nominal voltage, no-load frequency, no-load current, full-load speed, and full-load current. Your no-load current of 0.2 amps seems way too low for an 8.7A motor, and in a vector drive would result in a lack of magnetic flux and a major loss of torque. To summarize: 1) for more than one motor on a single drive, use V/Hz, not vector. 2) for a single motor, if you want to use vector, you must enter all the motor nameplate data accurately into the drive. (Some drives have a self-tuning process or other start-up procedure to determine the no-load current, since that often is missing from the motor nameplate.) Hope this helps, John Kasunich On Tue, Nov 25, 2014, at 04:09 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > Thank you! Yes, there is such a setting. > Could you, please, explain in more detail, if there are any > addditional settings I should pay attention to, when switching over to > vector control? Or should I just start with this one change and check > for any improvements? > > Viesturs > > > 2014-11-25 23:00 GMT+02:00 Andrew : > > > > Hi Viesturs! > > If your VFD has a vector control, maybe you should switch it over to V/F > > control with constant torque. I had the same trouble with my Hyundai VFD. > > Regards,Andrew > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 23:43 +0300 от Viesturs Lācis : > > Hello! > > > > I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that I > > have 11 kW VFD. > > The problem is that I attached motors to the drive, tried to run them, > > but VFD does not increase frequency above 8-9 hertz (all the default > > frequency values are 50 hertz, I checked them and set to 100 to make > > sure that it not a problem). And in addition to that motors get really > > hot in a minute or so. I set "no load current" to 0,2 A, max current > > currently is set to 17 A (max current for each motor is 8,7A). > > > > Thi
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Just change it to volts/hz. I'd set it up like it is one big motor. Add the full load amps together, etc like you mentioned. It should work with a volts/hz setting. Some drives are just too smart. :-) Dave On 11/25/2014 4:09 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > Thank you! Yes, there is such a setting. > Could you, please, explain in more detail, if there are any > addditional settings I should pay attention to, when switching over to > vector control? Or should I just start with this one change and check > for any improvements? > > Viesturs > > > 2014-11-25 23:00 GMT+02:00 Andrew : >> Hi Viesturs! >> If your VFD has a vector control, maybe you should switch it over to V/F >> control with constant torque. I had the same trouble with my Hyundai VFD. >> Regards,Andrew >> ... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 23:43 +0300 от Viesturs Lācis : >> Hello! >> >> I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that I >> have 11 kW VFD. >> The problem is that I attached motors to the drive, tried to run them, >> but VFD does not increase frequency above 8-9 hertz (all the default >> frequency values are 50 hertz, I checked them and set to 100 to make >> sure that it not a problem). And in addition to that motors get really >> hot in a minute or so. I set "no load current" to 0,2 A, max current >> currently is set to 17 A (max current for each motor is 8,7A). >> >> This VFD worked fine few weeks ago with 7 kW motor. I checked the >> motors today with 2kW VFD - worked just fine. >> >> Ok, I can decrease max current to 2-3 amps, while testing, probably >> that should fix the overheating, but why does it not allow to increase >> frequency? >> >> I would appreciate also any additional advices on how to run 2 motors >> with 1 VFD. >> >> Viesturs >> >> -- >> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server >> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards >> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more >> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> -- >> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server >> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards >> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more >> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Thank you! Yes, there is such a setting. Could you, please, explain in more detail, if there are any addditional settings I should pay attention to, when switching over to vector control? Or should I just start with this one change and check for any improvements? Viesturs 2014-11-25 23:00 GMT+02:00 Andrew : > > Hi Viesturs! > If your VFD has a vector control, maybe you should switch it over to V/F > control with constant torque. I had the same trouble with my Hyundai VFD. > Regards,Andrew > ... > > > > > > > > 23:43 +0300 от Viesturs Lācis : > Hello! > > I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that I > have 11 kW VFD. > The problem is that I attached motors to the drive, tried to run them, > but VFD does not increase frequency above 8-9 hertz (all the default > frequency values are 50 hertz, I checked them and set to 100 to make > sure that it not a problem). And in addition to that motors get really > hot in a minute or so. I set "no load current" to 0,2 A, max current > currently is set to 17 A (max current for each motor is 8,7A). > > This VFD worked fine few weeks ago with 7 kW motor. I checked the > motors today with 2kW VFD - worked just fine. > > Ok, I can decrease max current to 2-3 amps, while testing, probably > that should fix the overheating, but why does it not allow to increase > frequency? > > I would appreciate also any additional advices on how to run 2 motors > with 1 VFD. > > Viesturs > > -- > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] VFD trouble
Hi Viesturs! If your VFD has a vector control, maybe you should switch it over to V/F control with constant torque. I had the same trouble with my Hyundai VFD. Regards,Andrew ... 23:43 +0300 от Viesturs Lācis : Hello! I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that I have 11 kW VFD. The problem is that I attached motors to the drive, tried to run them, but VFD does not increase frequency above 8-9 hertz (all the default frequency values are 50 hertz, I checked them and set to 100 to make sure that it not a problem). And in addition to that motors get really hot in a minute or so. I set "no load current" to 0,2 A, max current currently is set to 17 A (max current for each motor is 8,7A). This VFD worked fine few weeks ago with 7 kW motor. I checked the motors today with 2kW VFD - worked just fine. Ok, I can decrease max current to 2-3 amps, while testing, probably that should fix the overheating, but why does it not allow to increase frequency? I would appreciate also any additional advices on how to run 2 motors with 1 VFD. Viesturs -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] VFD trouble
Hello! I need to drive 2 high-speed spindle motors, 3,7 kW each. For that I have 11 kW VFD. The problem is that I attached motors to the drive, tried to run them, but VFD does not increase frequency above 8-9 hertz (all the default frequency values are 50 hertz, I checked them and set to 100 to make sure that it not a problem). And in addition to that motors get really hot in a minute or so. I set "no load current" to 0,2 A, max current currently is set to 17 A (max current for each motor is 8,7A). This VFD worked fine few weeks ago with 7 kW motor. I checked the motors today with 2kW VFD - worked just fine. Ok, I can decrease max current to 2-3 amps, while testing, probably that should fix the overheating, but why does it not allow to increase frequency? I would appreciate also any additional advices on how to run 2 motors with 1 VFD. Viesturs -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=157005751&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
