Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-07-14 Thread For Sale Sticker
Hi 

Thanks to Ted and many others on the group I have had most of my questions 
answered.
I finnaly got all my parts and am excited to be wiring my cnc today.
I am converting an old (90's era) CNC router to emc.
I purchased a break out board to wire to the existing ib106 drivers.

This following photo shows the guts as they are now:

http://www.forsalesticker.com/oldGuts.jpg

So I am replacing that board in the middle with a breakout board and wiring to 
the drivers.

Now I have a few noob type questions - 

1 - What guage of wire should I use to go from the break out board to the 
drivers?  I have some wire from a cat 5 cable but it seems very tiny - should I 
use something fatter?

2 - The power from my power supply (very top right in the photo) goes to some 
other board (what the heck is that thing anyway?) 
And then there is a plastic connector from the what the heck board to the 
getting replaced board that has a white and black wire.
When the power is on I get 11.7 volts DC on those 2 wires.  

So my break out board is asking for ground and power (+9 to +24 V) 
Can I assume that black is power and white is ground?  
Or is white neutral and I need to get ground from something else?
Is there a good method to test this using a simple multimeter?

Thanks for the help.



Andy
















--- On Mon, 6/27/11, For Sale Sticker e...@forsalesticker.com wrote:

 From: For Sale Sticker e...@forsalesticker.com
 Subject: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion
 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 2:41 PM
 Hi - 
 
 I got an old CNC router (phoenix) from a school district
 auction and am very eager to get it going.
 The old interface is using a serial cable and I need figure
 out how to connect this to EMC.
 The electronics part is where I am a bit rusty - sorry if I
 ask obvious questions.
 
 Here is the low down:
 
 Drivers:    IB106 (see http://www.forsalesticker.com/drivers.jpg)
 Steppers:   1.8 deg - Eastern Air
 Devices  LA34BJK-P500
 
 
 How do I know what numbers to put on the driver timing
 settings on the first screen of stepConf? (see 
 http://www.forsalesticker.com/StepConf1.png)
 How do I determine the following on the axis configuration:
 (see http://www.forsalesticker.com/StepConf1.png)
 'Motor steps per revolution'
 'Driver microstepping'
 'leadscrew pitch' (do I just count the number of threads
 per inch?)
 
 
 I am guessing that I bypass this board completely (see 
 http://www.forsalesticker.com/bboard.jpg)
 
 
 Any advice will be much appriciated.
 
 Thanks
 
 Andy
 
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 sense of it. IT sense. And common sense.
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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-07-14 Thread andy pugh
On 14 July 2011 16:59, For Sale Sticker e...@forsalesticker.com wrote:

 1 - What guage of wire should I use to go from the break out board to the 
 drivers?  I have some wire from a cat 5 cable but it seems very tiny - should 
 I use something fatter?

The parallel port can only source a few mA, there is no way that it
can overload Cat5.

 2 - The power from my power supply (very top right in the photo)

I see two power supplies, There is the big transformer feeding a
capacitor (the blue thing) through a bridge rectifier to make a tough,
unregulated, Stepper supply. Then it appears that some other windings
go to the switchmode board, which will give a smooth, regulated supply
for the logic components.

 So my break out board is asking for ground and power (+9 to +24 V)
 Can I assume that black is power and white is ground?

Try assuming the opposite, or it will rapidly get expensive.

Black is only live in the latest EU-harmonised 3-phase wiring scheme
(And don't get me started on the insanity of _that_)

 Is there a good method to test this using a simple multimeter?

If you connect the +ve lead of the multimeter to +12V and the -ve lead
(often also marked COM) to Gnd, then the readout will be 11.7V.
If you swap the wires, the readout will be -11.7V.
Generally the +ve lead on the multimeter is read and the -ve is black,
but you are also generally quite at liberty to plug them in the wrong
way round.

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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-07-14 Thread Peter Blodow
andy pugh schrieb:
 Black is only live in the latest EU-harmonised 3-phase wiring scheme
 (And don't get me started on the insanity of _that_)

   
Hello Andy,
at least since I was a little boy (half a century ago), black used to be 
the colour of the live wire in ordinary cables here in Europe. This is 
because the very first power wires were insulated by strips of linnen 
soaked with guttappercha and natural rubber, filled with soot. Hence: 
black colour for the dangerous one.
House wiring was done with free dangling wires on wall mounted 
porcelaine insulators just below the ceiling (I've seen houses like 
that). The neutral wires weren't insulated at all, later they got a grey 
coating (less soot in them), still later blue as artificial dyes came 
up. This coating made it possible to collect the two wires in one single 
cable. Insanity? Consequence!

Peter

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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-07-14 Thread andy pugh
On 14 July 2011 19:10, Peter Blodow p.blo...@dreki.de wrote:

 at least since I was a little boy (half a century ago), black used to be
 the colour of the live wire in ordinary cables here in Europe.

Curious.

As long as I have been aware of it (probably 35 years since I first
wired a plug) it was red for live and black for neutral in fixed
wiring, and brown for live and blue for neutral in flex. (I presume
that before I noticed they were both red/black). We recently switched
fixed-wiring to brown/blue (which I thought was euro-harmonisation
too).
At the same time 3-phase went from red/blue/yellow with a black
neutral to brown/black/grey with a blue neutral.
So now blue and black can both be live or neutral.

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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-07-14 Thread sam sokolik
in  the US - single phase house wiring - black is hot, white is neutral 
and green is ground (or bare).

On 7/14/2011 1:24 PM, andy pugh wrote:
 On 14 July 2011 19:10, Peter Blodowp.blo...@dreki.de  wrote:

 at least since I was a little boy (half a century ago), black used to be
 the colour of the live wire in ordinary cables here in Europe.
 Curious.

 As long as I have been aware of it (probably 35 years since I first
 wired a plug) it was red for live and black for neutral in fixed
 wiring, and brown for live and blue for neutral in flex. (I presume
 that before I noticed they were both red/black). We recently switched
 fixed-wiring to brown/blue (which I thought was euro-harmonisation
 too).
 At the same time 3-phase went from red/blue/yellow with a black
 neutral to brown/black/grey with a blue neutral.
 So now blue and black can both be live or neutral.


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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-07-14 Thread andy pugh
On 14 July 2011 19:47, sam sokolik sa...@empirescreen.com wrote:
 in  the US - single phase house wiring - black is hot, white is neutral
 and green is ground (or bare).

In that case, the original poster needs to be properly sure before
connecting anything up, using the multimeter.

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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-07-14 Thread For Sale Sticker
  in  the US - single phase house wiring - black is
 hot, white is neutral
  and green is ground (or bare).

 In that case, the original poster needs to be properly sure
 before
 connecting anything up, using the multimeter.

Thanks for the advice on testing with a multimeter.  The machine was made in 
the US.  

Based on what I just learned - it is amazing that I didn't burn the inlaws 
house down last time I was in Australia :)

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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-07-14 Thread Andrew Cluff
question about wiring stepper motors, the breakout board has outputs for step, 
direction, and enable.  The drivers (ib106) need step, direction, enable and 
ground.  do I wire all 3 grounds to the ground on the breakout board?

Andy

On Thu Jul 14th, 2011 1:23 PM MDT For Sale Sticker wrote:

  in  the US - single phase house wiring - black is
 hot, white is neutral
  and green is ground (or bare).

 In that case, the original poster needs to be properly sure
 before
 connecting anything up, using the multimeter.

Thanks for the advice on testing with a multimeter.  The machine was made in 
the US.  

Based on what I just learned - it is amazing that I didn't burn the inlaws 
house down last time I was in Australia :)

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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-07-14 Thread andy pugh
On 15 July 2011 00:30, Andrew Cluff e...@forsalesticker.com wrote:
 question about wiring stepper motors, the breakout board has outputs for 
 step, direction, and enable.  The drivers (ib106) need step, direction, 
 enable and ground.  do I wire all 3 grounds to the ground on the breakout 
 board?

Yes. (Probably)

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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-06-29 Thread For Sale Sticker
Ted - 

Thanks for your advice. This helps very much. I have a few more questions below.


 The very first thing you need to do to make informed decisions 
 is to get as many datasheets as you can; 

Thanks for the sheet on the drivers.  Do you have any advice on how to locate 
info on the stepper motors?
I have googled for the steppers ( eastern air LA34BJK-P500 ) and havent found 
that model number anywhere.
The closest thing I found was at 
http://www.ni.com/devzone/advisors/motion/eastern.htm but that site does not 
include the correct model.


 Don't stop there - if there are limit switches, get info on them. 

no limit switches. (bummer)


 Spindle drive/controller, same thing. 
My spindle is only a PorterCable router. There is only a on off switch that is 
wired to the control panel - in the old controller it wasn't turned on or off 
by the computer. Someday I may change this - for now I want to see if anything 
works.


 Vacuum stuff? Ditto. 
The Vacuum runs on compresed air and just has a switch on the front like the 
router.  It was turned on and off manualy. 


 If you look at the system now, without that motion control board, 
 you have a standard 3 axis stepper system. 
 You can choose to buss the enables for each drive together as one,
 or keep them separate, or for testing just jumper them. 

OK.  Not sure what you mean here.  What should I consider when making this 
choice?


 Are there limit or home switches? Remote control for the spindle? Speed? 
 Vacuum platen/hold downs? Toolchanger?

Unfortunately no for most of this.  There is a switch for vacuum and for the 
router - but they are basic.  I may be able to add a relay for this some time 
later.


 The next decision you're going to make is whether to use 
 a motherboard/PCI parallel port for control, or 
 go with an external pulse generator board (PPMC/Mesa/etc).

I do have a PC with a parallel port and was planning on using that. I don't 
know what an external pulse generator board is? (or it that what I already 
have) 
Here is what I was planning on doing (is this the right approach?) :

1 - disconnect the cable from the board see: 
http://www.forsalesticker.com/bboard.jpg
The one towards the left with the blue cable comming off.

2 - use a gender changer 
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RD21XB97L._SL500_AA300_.jpg 
to be able to connect my parallel cable to my computer and to the router.
3 - figure out which wires are step / direction and mark them as such in 
stepConf
4 - say a prayer
5 - repeat step 4
6 - turn emc on and see if my axis can move

 Regardless, make sure you get some form of breakout 
 or opto-isolation board for protection.

sorry.  Now I need to ask the stupid questions - What is a breakout board or a 
opto-isolation board?  What do they do?
Do you have one you recommend?



Thanks

Andy

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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-06-29 Thread andy pugh
On 29 June 2011 16:08, For Sale Sticker e...@forsalesticker.com wrote:

 You can choose to buss the enables for each drive together as one,
 or keep them separate, or for testing just jumper them.

 OK.  Not sure what you mean here.  What should I consider when making this 
 choice?

The only issue is if your signals are strong enough to drive 3 inputs
on the drives. Probably not if connecting direct to the parallel port.

 I do have a PC with a parallel port and was planning on using that. I don't 
 know what an external pulse generator board is?

It is a board the offloads the task of creating high-frequency
step/dir signals to external hardware, rather than doing it inside the
EMC2 software.
Keep it in mind as a fallback plan.

 1 - disconnect the cable from the board see: 
 http://www.forsalesticker.com/bboard.jpg
    The one towards the left with the blue cable comming off.
 2 - use a gender changer

Does the blue wire run direct to the drives?

 What is a breakout board or a opto-isolation board?

Something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5-Axis-Breakout-Board-Stepper-Motor-Driver-CNC-Mill-/250847059324
(Though not necessarily that particular one).
it converts the DB25 to individual terminals to make wiring easier,
and uses opto-isolation so that faults in the drive electronics etc
can't damage the parallel port. It will also tend to beef up the
signals a bit. A typical p-port can source 5mA and sink 15mA, and that
isn't very much.

I have never bothered (the inputs to my stepper drives are
opto-isolated internally) and just wired the drives direct to a DB25
socket.


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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-06-29 Thread For Sale Sticker

  1 - disconnect the cable from the board see: 
  http://www.forsalesticker.com/bboard.jpg
     The one towards the left with the blue cable comming off.
  2 - use a gender changer

 Does the blue wire run direct to the drives?

Yes.   


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[Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-06-27 Thread For Sale Sticker
Hi - 

I got an old CNC router (phoenix) from a school district auction and am very 
eager to get it going.
The old interface is using a serial cable and I need figure out how to connect 
this to EMC.
The electronics part is where I am a bit rusty - sorry if I ask obvious 
questions.

Here is the low down:

Drivers:IB106 (see http://www.forsalesticker.com/drivers.jpg)
Steppers:   1.8 deg - Eastern Air Devices  LA34BJK-P500


How do I know what numbers to put on the driver timing settings on the first 
screen of stepConf? (see http://www.forsalesticker.com/StepConf1.png)
How do I determine the following on the axis configuration: (see 
http://www.forsalesticker.com/StepConf1.png)
'Motor steps per revolution'
'Driver microstepping'
'leadscrew pitch' (do I just count the number of threads per inch?)


I am guessing that I bypass this board completely (see 
http://www.forsalesticker.com/bboard.jpg)


Any advice will be much appriciated.

Thanks

Andy

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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-06-27 Thread gene heskett
On Monday, June 27, 2011 05:11:16 PM For Sale Sticker did opine:

 Hi -
 
 I got an old CNC router (phoenix) from a school district auction and am
 very eager to get it going. The old interface is using a serial cable
 and I need figure out how to connect this to EMC. The electronics part
 is where I am a bit rusty - sorry if I ask obvious questions.
 
 Here is the low down:
 
 Drivers:IB106 (see http://www.forsalesticker.com/drivers.jpg)
I get the error page.

 Steppers:   1.8 deg - Eastern Air Devices  LA34BJK-P500
 
 
 How do I know what numbers to put on the driver timing settings on the
 first screen of stepConf? (see
 http://www.forsalesticker.com/StepConf1.png) How do I determine the
 following on the axis configuration: (see
 http://www.forsalesticker.com/StepConf1.png) 'Motor steps per
 revolution'
 'Driver microstepping'
 'leadscrew pitch' (do I just count the number of threads per inch?)
 
 
 I am guessing that I bypass this board completely (see
 http://www.forsalesticker.com/bboard.jpg)
And again, just the error page.  No image.
 
 
 Any advice will be much appriciated.
 
 Thanks
 
 Andy
 
 
 -- All of the data generated in your IT infrastructure is seriously
 valuable. Why? It contains a definitive record of application
 performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk
 takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense.
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-d2d-c2
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  aproaching infinite peices

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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-06-27 Thread Eric Keller
Sorry for top replying.   They are step/dir, so you can get rid of the
interface board.  Here is a data sheet
http://www.servo-systems.com/pdf/ib10x_091803.pdf
Pretty sure they just use a common L298 driver.  No micro-stepping.
1.8 degrees per step is 200 in full step/400 in half step.  Pitch is
how many threads per inch.
Eric

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 4:41 PM, For Sale Sticker
e...@forsalesticker.com wrote:
 Hi -

 I got an old CNC router (phoenix) from a school district auction and am very 
 eager to get it going.
 The old interface is using a serial cable and I need figure out how to 
 connect this to EMC.
 The electronics part is where I am a bit rusty - sorry if I ask obvious 
 questions.

 Here is the low down:

 Drivers:    IB106 (see http://www.forsalesticker.com/drivers.jpg)
 Steppers:   1.8 deg - Eastern Air Devices  LA34BJK-P500


 How do I know what numbers to put on the driver timing settings on the first 
 screen of stepConf? (see http://www.forsalesticker.com/StepConf1.png)
 How do I determine the following on the axis configuration: (see 
 http://www.forsalesticker.com/StepConf1.png)
 'Motor steps per revolution'
 'Driver microstepping'
 'leadscrew pitch' (do I just count the number of threads per inch?)


 I am guessing that I bypass this board completely (see 
 http://www.forsalesticker.com/bboard.jpg)


 Any advice will be much appriciated.

 Thanks

 Andy

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[Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-06-27 Thread Ted Hyde
Andy - per your bottom assumption, and the fastest way to get things up and 
going: yes you'll probably want to remove the serial (if it truly is serial) to 
step-driver motion controller board from your system. The beauty is that the 
IB106's (although discontinued) are plain ol' stepper drivers, with 
step/direction/enable inputs, and are apparently capable of half- or full-step 
modes.

The very first thing you need to do to make informed decisions is to get as 
many datasheets as you can; google will be your friend, (although since I had 
to go and drop by Schneider's website anyway), check out the PDF for the 106: 
http://www.imshome.com/downloads/datasheets/ib10x.pdf  Don't stop there - if 
there are limit switches, get info on them. Spindle drive/controller, same 
thing. Vacuum stuff? Ditto. Practically everything in what you are doing is 
related only to being on or off - so don't let the electronics spook you.

If you look at the system now, without that motion control board, you have a 
standard 3 axis stepper system. You can choose to buss the enables for each 
drive together as one, or keep them separate, or for testing just jumper them. 
You can most likely ( unless the datasheets indicate differently), use the 
default values from either conf or the stepper sample configs for testing with 
your hardware. Get one section going first, then add, then add, then add. Are 
there limit or home switches? Remote control for the spindle? Speed? Vacuum 
platen/hold downs? Toolchanger? -- Get the table motion going first, then add 
the remainder to the mix.

Put the power for the stepper drivers/spindle on a powerstrip/switch SEPARATE 
from your computer - this is a temporary OMG e-stop until you get a real 
emergency stop system in place, that doesn't power off your computer. Keep that 
switch within reach.

The next decision you're going to make is whether to use a motherboard/PCI 
parallel port for control, or go with an external pulse generator board 
(PPMC/Mesa/etc). For instant gratification, lowest budget, fastest time - 
if you have a PC available with a parallel port, I'd recommend that first. 
(again, start with simple knowns, add more stuff later) Regardless, make sure 
you get some form of breakout or opto-isolation board for protection.

 From here on in, you can pretty much follow any (or all) of the stepper-driven 
projects whether they be micromills or shopmates or anything else with 
steppers. There are plenty of projects in the wiki that you can learn from. The 
EMC Getting Started Guide includes pretty much a step-by-step recipe for 
stepper systems. As an aside, and Not To Be Recommended, but technically you 
can get a 3-axis stepper system running on only 7 wires (including ground) off 
the parallel port.

More specific answers: driver variables - would actually depend a little more 
on experimentation given the mass/inertia in your system. Too quick on the 
pulses or too high an acceleration value and the motors may stall, or the 
drivers may not even sense it. Too long and the system will be sluggish. Since 
you have a router, which typically implies wood, you'll need to get your 
feedrates as high and consistent as possible so you don't burn tools.

Leadscrew pitch - in stepconf it's looking for rev/inch (or if you prefer, TPI) 
- yes, you can count the number of threads per inch, (or in 10 inches, or in 
100 inches - depends on what resolution you need) but don't forget to make sure 
you also include any gearing if it's applicable (there are other fields for 
that). You can always come back and edit/fine tune the scale values after the 
fact if necessary.

Ted.
=

I got an old CNC router (phoenix) from a school district auction and am very 
eager to get it going.
The old interface is using a serial cable and I need figure out how to connect 
this to EMC.
The electronics part is where I am a bit rusty - sorry if I ask obvious 
questions.

Here is the low down:

Drivers:IB106 (seehttp://www.forsalesticker.com/drivers.jpg)
Steppers:   1.8 deg - Eastern Air Devices  LA34BJK-P500
snip


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Re: [Emc-users] stepConf configuration | EMC conversion

2011-06-27 Thread Ed Nisley
On Mon, 2011-06-27 at 13:41 -0700, For Sale Sticker wrote:
 'leadscrew pitch' (do I just count the number of threads per inch?)

It's barely possible that the leadscrew will have a multiple-start
thread, making the linear-motion-per-turn higher than you'd expect from
a simple count of the threads-per-inch number.

Turn the leadscrew by hand and count the number of threads that vanish /
appear at the edge of the stage for each turn: mark a thread, then watch
it for one turn. If one thread vanishes / appears, then the leadscrew
doesn't have a multiple-start thread.

If it has a multi-start thread, then the stage will move more than the
threads-per-inch by the number of thread starts.

(The Z axis on my Thing-O-Matic has a four-start leadscrew, so I had to
puzzle through this mess while figuring out the mechanics...)

-- 
Ed
http://softsolder.com



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