Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 20 August 2021 09:15:30 Sven Wesley wrote:

> Den mån 26 juli 2021 kl 01:35 skrev :
> > There are addins now that post process gcode to convert line
> > segments to G2/G3.
>
> Yes! ArcWelder is extremely good at this! Can be used as a console app
> or as a plugin directly in OctoPrint if you fancy that. I use it all
> the time and not only will you get smaller files, the printer operates
> so much smoother and at a faster pace.
> Highly recommended!
> https://github.com/FormerLurker/ArcWelderLib
> https://github.com/FormerLurker/ArcWelderPlugin
>
> Regards,
> Sven

I have installed in the latest cura, but need to test it better than I 
have. Probably would not work well for harmonic drives.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Sven Wesley]

Den mån 26 juli 2021 kl 01:35 skrev :

> There are addins now that post process gcode to convert line segments to
> G2/G3.
>
>
Yes! ArcWelder is extremely good at this! Can be used as a console app or
as a plugin directly in OctoPrint if you fancy that. I use it all the time
and not only will you get smaller files, the printer operates so much
smoother and at a faster pace.
Highly recommended!
https://github.com/FormerLurker/ArcWelderLib
https://github.com/FormerLurker/ArcWelderPlugin

Regards,
Sven

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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[frank]

There are addins now that post process gcode to convert line segments to G2/G3. 
 

-Original Message-
From: Andy Pugh  
Sent: Monday, 26 July 2021 9:08 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers



> On 25 Jul 2021, at 22:56, fr...@franksworkshop.com.au wrote:
> 
> (all gcode interpreters still slice an arc in to line segments)

This isn t their fault, there are no curves in STL. 



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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Andy Pugh]

> On 25 Jul 2021, at 22:56, fr...@franksworkshop.com.au wrote:
> 
> (all gcode interpreters still slice an
> arc in to line segments)

This isn’t their fault, there are no curves in STL. 



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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Martin Dobbins]

Yes, I know I often fiddle with the output of Cura to do things like switch off 
the bed heater after the first few layers, there's probably a setting in Cura 
that does that but I haven't found it yet.  The point is that slicers generally 
have more settings than CAM programs because they have to.

I posted an OT about this before, but there are people working on a different 
approach where you basically draw a simple part (you wouldn't bother to open 
your CAD package for)  and g code is produced.  It's the equivalent of 
"conversational" CNC for simple jobs, fascinating project if nothing else:

 
https://hackaday.com/2021/07/19/3d-print-in-the-air-with-a-little-software-support/

More info:
https://github.com/analysis230/analysis230.github.io

I think it runs in a web browser like this:

https://analysis230.github.io/index.html




Martin




From: Rob C

the 3d printer gcode is understandable, and you could handball simple
shapes (I've done a couple for various test and setup things). but you
would really struggle to do the infill as well as a slicer to still provide
strength and minimise infill

https://3dprinterly.com/what-is-the-best-infill-pattern-for-3d-printing/

being an additive process you couldn't run it through a mill. as it
sort of works in reverse (and you'd end up with a pocket if you flipped the
z direction)

but we sort of digress. from just running something like marlin to
running lcnc comparison as gcode is essentially just motion with a bit
of additional icing on top.

(if there was a board for Mesa hardware to take my tmc2209 drives (or I had
the time to interface one to a 7i92 I'm happy to convert my machine to
linuxcnc and run some cura gcode through it)


On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 21:32 Martin Dobbins,  wrote:

> It is like the relationship of using CAD to design a part then using CAM
> to produce the g code to machine that part. Some people know enough about g
> code that they often don't use CAM, or are able to "massage" the output of
> CAM to produce different results.  Others may not care.
>
> CAD can also produce files for slicers (CAM) which produce g code for 3d
> printers which is apparently so complicated that no human being can
> understand it sufficiently to write their own code.  Yet it is the same g
> code fed to the components of a printer rather than (say) a milling machine.
>
> Martin
>
> 
> From: Rob C 
>
>
> is this not just reinventing the wheel for the sake of it?
>
> what is the benefit of using lcnc for fff/fdm printer?
>
> I am not trying to downplay the idea / application or lcnc or its
> capability.  (dispite it may appear so)
>
> 1, 18:55 Chris Albertson, 
> wrote:
>
> > 99% of the "magic" in 3D printing happens in the slicer.  All the printer
> > controller needs to do is move the steppers in a very stupid
> > way.Acceleration limits and such are all done in the slicer.  Notice that
> > the g-code files for some parts are MILLIONS of lines of g-code that do
> > very tiny movements
> >
> > I still argue that the only thing LCNC lacks is "works out of the box".
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 5:43 PM andy pugh  wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 21:13, Bari  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for
> > > > controlling FFF/FDM printers?
> > >
> > > I have heard (but not tested) that extruder moves are not blended, so
> > > the motion is not as smooth as one might like.
> > >
> > > There might be something to be said for a G-code interpreter that used
> > > E as the extruder, and supported the other 3DP-specific codes.
> > >
> > > (LInuxCNC supports pluggable interpreters, this is doable)
> > >
> > > --
> > > atp
> > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > > lunatics."
> > > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
> >
> > ___
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[frank]

I used a beagle bone with machine kit to drive my mini-kossel.  I had to
write a few macros implement the M codes (100,104,106,107,109,140,190).  But
that was about it.  The axis UI is pretty sluggish on the beagle bone.

I did this at a time when only 8-bit boards were available.  LCNC has better
homing, and it does arcs correctly (all gcode interpreters still slice an
arc in to line segments)

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Bari  
Sent: Sunday, 25 July 2021 6:11 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for controlling
FFF/FDM printers?



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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Rob C]

the 3d printer gcode is understandable, and you could handball simple
shapes (I've done a couple for various test and setup things). but you
would really struggle to do the infill as well as a slicer to still provide
strength and minimise infill

https://3dprinterly.com/what-is-the-best-infill-pattern-for-3d-printing/

being an additive process you couldn't run it through a mill. as it
sort of works in reverse (and you'd end up with a pocket if you flipped the
z direction)

but we sort of digress. from just running something like marlin to
running lcnc comparison as gcode is essentially just motion with a bit
of additional icing on top.

(if there was a board for Mesa hardware to take my tmc2209 drives (or I had
the time to interface one to a 7i92 I'm happy to convert my machine to
linuxcnc and run some cura gcode through it)


On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 21:32 Martin Dobbins,  wrote:

> It is like the relationship of using CAD to design a part then using CAM
> to produce the g code to machine that part. Some people know enough about g
> code that they often don't use CAM, or are able to "massage" the output of
> CAM to produce different results.  Others may not care.
>
> CAD can also produce files for slicers (CAM) which produce g code for 3d
> printers which is apparently so complicated that no human being can
> understand it sufficiently to write their own code.  Yet it is the same g
> code fed to the components of a printer rather than (say) a milling machine.
>
> Martin
>
> 
> From: Rob C 
>
>
> is this not just reinventing the wheel for the sake of it?
>
> what is the benefit of using lcnc for fff/fdm printer?
>
> I am not trying to downplay the idea / application or lcnc or its
> capability.  (dispite it may appear so)
>
> 1, 18:55 Chris Albertson, 
> wrote:
>
> > 99% of the "magic" in 3D printing happens in the slicer.  All the printer
> > controller needs to do is move the steppers in a very stupid
> > way.Acceleration limits and such are all done in the slicer.  Notice that
> > the g-code files for some parts are MILLIONS of lines of g-code that do
> > very tiny movements
> >
> > I still argue that the only thing LCNC lacks is "works out of the box".
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 5:43 PM andy pugh  wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 21:13, Bari  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for
> > > > controlling FFF/FDM printers?
> > >
> > > I have heard (but not tested) that extruder moves are not blended, so
> > > the motion is not as smooth as one might like.
> > >
> > > There might be something to be said for a G-code interpreter that used
> > > E as the extruder, and supported the other 3DP-specific codes.
> > >
> > > (LInuxCNC supports pluggable interpreters, this is doable)
> > >
> > > --
> > > atp
> > > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > > lunatics."
> > > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Rob C]

thanks Andy,

but Marlin does do Delta robots / configurations too (never used / set one
up myself)

https://marlinfw.org/docs/gcode/M665.html

On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 21:04 Andy Pugh,  wrote:

>
>
> > On 25 Jul 2021, at 19:48, Rob C  wrote:
> >
> > what is the benefit of using lcnc for fff/fdm printer?
>
> One thing is kinematics. If you have a non-trivial kins then LinuxCNC can
> handle it.
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Martin Dobbins]

It is like the relationship of using CAD to design a part then using CAM to 
produce the g code to machine that part. Some people know enough about g code 
that they often don't use CAM, or are able to "massage" the output of CAM to 
produce different results.  Others may not care.

CAD can also produce files for slicers (CAM) which produce g code for 3d 
printers which is apparently so complicated that no human being can understand 
it sufficiently to write their own code.  Yet it is the same g code fed to the 
components of a printer rather than (say) a milling machine.

Martin


From: Rob C 


is this not just reinventing the wheel for the sake of it?

what is the benefit of using lcnc for fff/fdm printer?

I am not trying to downplay the idea / application or lcnc or its
capability.  (dispite it may appear so)

1, 18:55 Chris Albertson, 
wrote:

> 99% of the "magic" in 3D printing happens in the slicer.  All the printer
> controller needs to do is move the steppers in a very stupid
> way.Acceleration limits and such are all done in the slicer.  Notice that
> the g-code files for some parts are MILLIONS of lines of g-code that do
> very tiny movements
>
> I still argue that the only thing LCNC lacks is "works out of the box".
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 5:43 PM andy pugh  wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 21:13, Bari  wrote:
> > >
> > > What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for
> > > controlling FFF/FDM printers?
> >
> > I have heard (but not tested) that extruder moves are not blended, so
> > the motion is not as smooth as one might like.
> >
> > There might be something to be said for a G-code interpreter that used
> > E as the extruder, and supported the other 3DP-specific codes.
> >
> > (LInuxCNC supports pluggable interpreters, this is doable)
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Andy Pugh]

> On 25 Jul 2021, at 19:48, Rob C  wrote:
> 
> what is the benefit of using lcnc for fff/fdm printer?

One thing is kinematics. If you have a non-trivial kins then LinuxCNC can 
handle it. 



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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

I've been happy with LinuxCNC 2.8 as-is for running my FFF printer.

--
Sebastian Kuzminsky

On 7/24/21 2:10 PM, Bari wrote:
What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for 
controlling FFF/FDM printers?




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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Bari]

LCNC can easily handle things like a FDM/FFF that over-molds parts or is 
built like a lathe and deposits thermoplastics or uses a syringe or 
peristaltic pump. The slicers really come up short. They do make up for 
the lack of a trajectory planner in some FFF/FDM firmware.


On 7/25/21 1:46 PM, Rob C wrote:

is this not just reinventing the wheel for the sake of it?

what is the benefit of using lcnc for fff/fdm printer?

I am not trying to downplay the idea / application or lcnc or its
capability.  (dispite it may appear so)

I ask because I run marlin (free) with octoprint (octopi) (again free) on a
Bigtreetech-SKR 1.4 Turbo , with 5x TMC2209 stepper motor drives running as
uart input. (about £70)...
it runs 2x extruders and an XYZ 300x300x500 frame with a 230v heated bed.

it's not like I can replace marlin with lcnc on that setup / board?

so I'd need different hardware (at more cost and time to configure) and it
will probably generate the same output using the same slicer.

the acceleration is taken care of in the tmc2209 drives and is nothing to
do with the slicer (I use cura (again free plus seems to meet my needs))

to speed up my prints I use a larger nozzle, given most of the stuff I have
done has been biggish.

not adverse to using lcnc, just not seeing an advantage in cost, time to
build, assemble, programme or finished product.

what am I missing?



On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 18:55 Chris Albertson, 
wrote:


99% of the "magic" in 3D printing happens in the slicer.  All the printer
controller needs to do is move the steppers in a very stupid
way.Acceleration limits and such are all done in the slicer.  Notice that
the g-code files for some parts are MILLIONS of lines of g-code that do
very tiny movements

I still argue that the only thing LCNC lacks is "works out of the box".



On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 5:43 PM andy pugh  wrote:


On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 21:13, Bari  wrote:

What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for
controlling FFF/FDM printers?

I have heard (but not tested) that extruder moves are not blended, so
the motion is not as smooth as one might like.

There might be something to be said for a G-code interpreter that used
E as the extruder, and supported the other 3DP-specific codes.

(LInuxCNC supports pluggable interpreters, this is doable)

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Rob C]

is this not just reinventing the wheel for the sake of it?

what is the benefit of using lcnc for fff/fdm printer?

I am not trying to downplay the idea / application or lcnc or its
capability.  (dispite it may appear so)

I ask because I run marlin (free) with octoprint (octopi) (again free) on a
Bigtreetech-SKR 1.4 Turbo , with 5x TMC2209 stepper motor drives running as
uart input. (about £70)...
it runs 2x extruders and an XYZ 300x300x500 frame with a 230v heated bed.

it's not like I can replace marlin with lcnc on that setup / board?

so I'd need different hardware (at more cost and time to configure) and it
will probably generate the same output using the same slicer.

the acceleration is taken care of in the tmc2209 drives and is nothing to
do with the slicer (I use cura (again free plus seems to meet my needs))

to speed up my prints I use a larger nozzle, given most of the stuff I have
done has been biggish.

not adverse to using lcnc, just not seeing an advantage in cost, time to
build, assemble, programme or finished product.

what am I missing?



On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 18:55 Chris Albertson, 
wrote:

> 99% of the "magic" in 3D printing happens in the slicer.  All the printer
> controller needs to do is move the steppers in a very stupid
> way.Acceleration limits and such are all done in the slicer.  Notice that
> the g-code files for some parts are MILLIONS of lines of g-code that do
> very tiny movements
>
> I still argue that the only thing LCNC lacks is "works out of the box".
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 5:43 PM andy pugh  wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 21:13, Bari  wrote:
> > >
> > > What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for
> > > controlling FFF/FDM printers?
> >
> > I have heard (but not tested) that extruder moves are not blended, so
> > the motion is not as smooth as one might like.
> >
> > There might be something to be said for a G-code interpreter that used
> > E as the extruder, and supported the other 3DP-specific codes.
> >
> > (LInuxCNC supports pluggable interpreters, this is doable)
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Chris Albertson]

99% of the "magic" in 3D printing happens in the slicer.  All the printer
controller needs to do is move the steppers in a very stupid
way.Acceleration limits and such are all done in the slicer.  Notice that
the g-code files for some parts are MILLIONS of lines of g-code that do
very tiny movements

I still argue that the only thing LCNC lacks is "works out of the box".



On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 5:43 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 21:13, Bari  wrote:
> >
> > What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for
> > controlling FFF/FDM printers?
>
> I have heard (but not tested) that extruder moves are not blended, so
> the motion is not as smooth as one might like.
>
> There might be something to be said for a G-code interpreter that used
> E as the extruder, and supported the other 3DP-specific codes.
>
> (LInuxCNC supports pluggable interpreters, this is doable)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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-- 

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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 at 21:13, Bari  wrote:
>
> What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for
> controlling FFF/FDM printers?

I have heard (but not tested) that extruder moves are not blended, so
the motion is not as smooth as one might like.

There might be something to be said for a G-code interpreter that used
E as the extruder, and supported the other 3DP-specific codes.

(LInuxCNC supports pluggable interpreters, this is doable)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Bari]

Gains are all the features already in LCNC for uncommon 3d printers. 
Something like FDM  + other additive tech. FDM + SLA/DLP for example, or 
combined with inkjet.



Still wondering what is missing from LCNC for common FDM/FFF printers.


On 7/24/21 4:27 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

Configuration files setup for common FDM printer hardware.

I think that is all that is missing.  A non LCNC solution works out of the
box.  It is this "out of the box" that is missing.   But the config is
needed not just for LCNC but also the common slicer apps like Cura

The next question is "What is to be gained by using LCNC?"

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 1:13 PM Bari  wrote:


What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for
controlling FFF/FDM printers?



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Re: [Emc-users] Missing Features in LCNC for FFF/FDM Printers

[Chris Albertson]

Configuration files setup for common FDM printer hardware.

I think that is all that is missing.  A non LCNC solution works out of the
box.  It is this "out of the box" that is missing.   But the config is
needed not just for LCNC but also the common slicer apps like Cura

The next question is "What is to be gained by using LCNC?"

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 1:13 PM Bari  wrote:

> What are the missing desired or required features in LCNC for
> controlling FFF/FDM printers?
>
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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