Re: [E-devel] Some thoughts on the e17 release
On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 09:08:46 +0930 Simon Lees said: > On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Simon wrote: > > > On 07/30/2012 09:02 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:02:01 +0930 Simon said: > >> > > > >> > > > > * The first isn’t so much a request for a extra feature in this list > > but > > somewhere in the settings panel to reset your profile and go through > > the > > config from scratch. I know from experience it took me 2 or 3 times > > to go > > through before i figured everything out. It would be nice to be able to > > load and save (import/export) profiles as well. As well as parts of > > profiles like keybindings (I normally keep them the same across > > machines at > > least and they are fiddlyier and more time consuming to set up but that > > part's not a biggy. > > > rm -rf ~/.e/e/config and log in again. :) but ok - we can make a button > for > it... :) > > >>> I know that one it's just i would like to think that oneday Linux will > >>> become easy enough to use that users will never need to touch hidden > >>> directories in there home drive :) > >>> > >> i added a "scratch" button now to the profiles config dialog. hit that > >> when u > >> are feeling frisky. :) > >> > > I tried it while writing this email as i haven't setup my desktop at home > > again properly since i was last trying to debug issues with shelves on > > screens last. My full idea was to then re run the first time config again. > > > > > Sorry for the noise i must have rebuilt a good 10 minutes before the > feature was added and got confused with the clear settings button. My bad > > cheers, its the button called "Scratch"... literally... scratch it all and start afresh - e restarts into the wizard. as u asked. :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Some thoughts on the e17 release
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Simon wrote: > On 07/30/2012 09:02 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > >> On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:02:01 +0930 Simon said: >> > >> > > * The first isn’t so much a request for a extra feature in this list > but > somewhere in the settings panel to reset your profile and go through > the > config from scratch. I know from experience it took me 2 or 3 times > to go > through before i figured everything out. It would be nice to be able to > load and save (import/export) profiles as well. As well as parts of > profiles like keybindings (I normally keep them the same across > machines at > least and they are fiddlyier and more time consuming to set up but that > part's not a biggy. > rm -rf ~/.e/e/config and log in again. :) but ok - we can make a button for it... :) >>> I know that one it's just i would like to think that oneday Linux will >>> become easy enough to use that users will never need to touch hidden >>> directories in there home drive :) >>> >> i added a "scratch" button now to the profiles config dialog. hit that >> when u >> are feeling frisky. :) >> > I tried it while writing this email as i haven't setup my desktop at home > again properly since i was last trying to debug issues with shelves on > screens last. My full idea was to then re run the first time config again. > > Sorry for the noise i must have rebuilt a good 10 minutes before the feature was added and got confused with the clear settings button. My bad cheers, Simon http://simotek.net/tech -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Some thoughts on the e17 release
On 07/30/2012 09:02 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:02:01 +0930 Simon said: > >> Morning, >> Firstly thanks for taking the time to put together a well thought out >> response i appreciate it. >> >> >> On 07/26/2012 02:00 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: >>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:11:23 +0930 Simon Lees said: >>> I’ve been using E17 for almost a year since i tried gnome 3 and realised it couldn’t be configured the way i find most productive and since KDE dropped compiz fusion it also now can’t be setup the same way and because i like my window manager to look good its not the 90’s anymore, Enlightenment became the best choice. >>> you're going to hate us. for e18 will move compositing into core. u take >>> e';s compositor or you don't take e. that's where things are going... >>> :) >> I won't and wouldn't for 2 reasons, firstly i was mostly trying to make >> the point that i was disappointed when gnome and kde removed compiz >> fusion support and didn't replace it with something as customizable or >> that didn't have all the features i use. So i went searching and found >> e17 which did. I have never tried running e17 with compiz because e17 on >> its own has all the features i need (I don't need wobbly windows). >> Secondly if i was using compiz i wouldn't care as you are not taking >> away functionalitiy and forcing me to use dynamically expanding >> workspaces and as a software engineer i understand how this would be >> easier to maintain. > ok then. we're happy :) > With the upcoming release i have some thoughts and ideas about improving the users experience most of these are as much to stimulate discussion as much as anything else if none of them are implemented i won’t care too much, after all i don’t have the time to implement them. While enlightenment is a great window manager in my opinion the best, it has one or 2 weaknesses mostly due to its nature over the last 12 years, not having a stable release with most people needing to build from source. Moving from supporting a bunch of developers and experienced linux users to the point where anyone picking up Linux for the first time can use E17 is a essential move if E17 is to become one of the major window managers. This essentially means that we should expect that users don’t know how to build from source and we will be relying on distributions to provide everything needed for a good E17 experience. >>> yes yes - we know. every distro wants to do its own packaging and has its >>> own rules and methods. we can't do it all. this is what distribut6ion >>> packagers do. jeffdammeth keeps some nightly build ppa's for ubuntu going >>> so the biggest distro is covered. bodhi package e integrated with the os. >>> gentoo has ebuilds... its not badly covered - well other than distros >>> OFFICIALLY packaging e and we can't make them do it. >> I am not suggesting e17 do any of it unless theres simple things that >> are requested by distro's. I made this point more to illustrate a >> changing userbase as hopefully more distro's do include e17 or at least >> have community repositories the userbase will move more and more to >> people who have only used package management systems and don't know what >> svn is. I use the opensuse community repo's on a couple of machines that >> i never intend to develop on because its far easier then maintaining a >> script to update from svn. > distros want releases. even with them packages lag often weeks, months or > years behind... or don't exist at all. :) as such tho a single efl tree (as > planned) will cut down work for everyone involved, packagers too. As someone who uses easy e17 i think the single build tree is a great idea as well, As someone who is using a rolling release distro i often forget about those that take along time to update. I am looking forward to grabbing the stable version of e17 out of a repository somewhere. > Being someone who is not a packager and has no experience doing anything like it i think moving to a single build tree and efl lib is a great start. There are 2 other areas that i can see as issues the first being applications when i am building with easy e17 i struggle to work out what’s a application what’s stable and what’s worth building maybe there needs to >>> easy-e17 includes a lot of stuff that is half-done and not stable. so that's >>> why. >> Yeah i thought i saw a list of applications and a description of what >> they did somewhere on the site the other week but i can't see it >> anywhere atm so either im average at looking or its well hidden, this is >> the sort of thing i was meaning when i was talking about helping >> distributors a simple list of applications with a brief description of >> what they do so this info can be copied and pasted into packages. > really if we release tarballs then its usable. if we
Re: [E-devel] Some thoughts on the e17 release
On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:02:01 +0930 Simon said: > Morning, > Firstly thanks for taking the time to put together a well thought out > response i appreciate it. > > > On 07/26/2012 02:00 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:11:23 +0930 Simon Lees said: > > > >> I’ve been using E17 for almost a year since i tried gnome 3 and realised it > >> couldn’t be configured the way i find most productive and since KDE dropped > >> compiz fusion it also now can’t be setup the same way and because i like my > >> window manager to look good its not the 90’s anymore, Enlightenment became > >> the best choice. > > you're going to hate us. for e18 will move compositing into core. u take > > e';s compositor or you don't take e. that's where things are going... > > :) > I won't and wouldn't for 2 reasons, firstly i was mostly trying to make > the point that i was disappointed when gnome and kde removed compiz > fusion support and didn't replace it with something as customizable or > that didn't have all the features i use. So i went searching and found > e17 which did. I have never tried running e17 with compiz because e17 on > its own has all the features i need (I don't need wobbly windows). > Secondly if i was using compiz i wouldn't care as you are not taking > away functionalitiy and forcing me to use dynamically expanding > workspaces and as a software engineer i understand how this would be > easier to maintain. ok then. we're happy :) > >> With the upcoming release i have some thoughts and ideas about improving > >> the users experience most of these are as much to stimulate discussion as > >> much as anything else if none of them are implemented i won’t care too > >> much, after all i don’t have the time to implement them. > >> > >> While enlightenment is a great window manager in my opinion the best, it > >> has one or 2 weaknesses mostly due to its nature over the last 12 years, > >> not having a stable release with most people needing to build from source. > >> Moving from supporting a bunch of developers and experienced linux users to > >> the point where anyone picking up Linux for the first time can use E17 is a > >> essential move if E17 is to become one of the major window managers. This > >> essentially means that we should expect that users don’t know how to build > >> from source and we will be relying on distributions to provide everything > >> needed for a good E17 experience. > > yes yes - we know. every distro wants to do its own packaging and has its > > own rules and methods. we can't do it all. this is what distribut6ion > > packagers do. jeffdammeth keeps some nightly build ppa's for ubuntu going > > so the biggest distro is covered. bodhi package e integrated with the os. > > gentoo has ebuilds... its not badly covered - well other than distros > > OFFICIALLY packaging e and we can't make them do it. > I am not suggesting e17 do any of it unless theres simple things that > are requested by distro's. I made this point more to illustrate a > changing userbase as hopefully more distro's do include e17 or at least > have community repositories the userbase will move more and more to > people who have only used package management systems and don't know what > svn is. I use the opensuse community repo's on a couple of machines that > i never intend to develop on because its far easier then maintaining a > script to update from svn. distros want releases. even with them packages lag often weeks, months or years behind... or don't exist at all. :) as such tho a single efl tree (as planned) will cut down work for everyone involved, packagers too. > >> Being someone who is not a packager and has no experience doing anything > >> like it i think moving to a single build tree and efl lib is a great start. > >> There are 2 other areas that i can see as issues the first being > >> applications when i am building with easy e17 i struggle to work out what’s > >> a application what’s stable and what’s worth building maybe there needs to > > easy-e17 includes a lot of stuff that is half-done and not stable. so that's > > why. > Yeah i thought i saw a list of applications and a description of what > they did somewhere on the site the other week but i can't see it > anywhere atm so either im average at looking or its well hidden, this is > the sort of thing i was meaning when i was talking about helping > distributors a simple list of applications with a brief description of > what they do so this info can be copied and pasted into packages. really if we release tarballs then its usable. if we don't - it's probably still being hacked on and may never make it out the door. if its in svn it's a free-for all as to if its stable/usable. some things will be better than others. :) > >> be a stable and development directory for applications in svn instead of > >> having them all in the root directory. Similarly with E-MODULES-EXTRA the > >> poll a couple of we
Re: [E-devel] Some thoughts on the e17 release
Morning, Firstly thanks for taking the time to put together a well thought out response i appreciate it. On 07/26/2012 02:00 PM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:11:23 +0930 Simon Lees said: > >> I’ve been using E17 for almost a year since i tried gnome 3 and realised it >> couldn’t be configured the way i find most productive and since KDE dropped >> compiz fusion it also now can’t be setup the same way and because i like my >> window manager to look good its not the 90’s anymore, Enlightenment became >> the best choice. > you're going to hate us. for e18 will move compositing into core. u take e';s > compositor or you don't take e. that's where things are going... > :) I won't and wouldn't for 2 reasons, firstly i was mostly trying to make the point that i was disappointed when gnome and kde removed compiz fusion support and didn't replace it with something as customizable or that didn't have all the features i use. So i went searching and found e17 which did. I have never tried running e17 with compiz because e17 on its own has all the features i need (I don't need wobbly windows). Secondly if i was using compiz i wouldn't care as you are not taking away functionalitiy and forcing me to use dynamically expanding workspaces and as a software engineer i understand how this would be easier to maintain. > >> With the upcoming release i have some thoughts and ideas about improving >> the users experience most of these are as much to stimulate discussion as >> much as anything else if none of them are implemented i won’t care too >> much, after all i don’t have the time to implement them. >> >> While enlightenment is a great window manager in my opinion the best, it >> has one or 2 weaknesses mostly due to its nature over the last 12 years, >> not having a stable release with most people needing to build from source. >> Moving from supporting a bunch of developers and experienced linux users to >> the point where anyone picking up Linux for the first time can use E17 is a >> essential move if E17 is to become one of the major window managers. This >> essentially means that we should expect that users don’t know how to build >> from source and we will be relying on distributions to provide everything >> needed for a good E17 experience. > yes yes - we know. every distro wants to do its own packaging and has its own > rules and methods. we can't do it all. this is what distribut6ion packagers > do. > jeffdammeth keeps some nightly build ppa's for ubuntu going so the biggest > distro is covered. bodhi package e integrated with the os. gentoo has > ebuilds... its not badly covered - well other than distros OFFICIALLY > packaging e and we can't make them do it. I am not suggesting e17 do any of it unless theres simple things that are requested by distro's. I made this point more to illustrate a changing userbase as hopefully more distro's do include e17 or at least have community repositories the userbase will move more and more to people who have only used package management systems and don't know what svn is. I use the opensuse community repo's on a couple of machines that i never intend to develop on because its far easier then maintaining a script to update from svn. > >> Being someone who is not a packager and has no experience doing anything >> like it i think moving to a single build tree and efl lib is a great start. >> There are 2 other areas that i can see as issues the first being >> applications when i am building with easy e17 i struggle to work out what’s >> a application what’s stable and what’s worth building maybe there needs to > easy-e17 includes a lot of stuff that is half-done and not stable. so that's > why. Yeah i thought i saw a list of applications and a description of what they did somewhere on the site the other week but i can't see it anywhere atm so either im average at looking or its well hidden, this is the sort of thing i was meaning when i was talking about helping distributors a simple list of applications with a brief description of what they do so this info can be copied and pasted into packages. > >> be a stable and development directory for applications in svn instead of >> having them all in the root directory. Similarly with E-MODULES-EXTRA the >> poll a couple of weeks back showed that a lot of us use at least a few >> modules each but if the common ones like taskbar, cpu, net, comp scale >> don’t get moved into E17 and are left as extras they will risk being left >> out by some distro’s that only want stable packages or can’t be bothered > the modules form extras that are worth it have been moved to core. others are > either waiting on something or will never move. comp-scale for example is > waiting for compositing to go into core. my advice is don't use anything from > e-modules-extras. if you choose to ignore that advice then you accept the > consequences of bugs and problems. one of these days i'll come up wit
Re: [E-devel] Some thoughts on the e17 release
On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:11:23 +0930 Simon Lees said: > I’ve been using E17 for almost a year since i tried gnome 3 and realised it > couldn’t be configured the way i find most productive and since KDE dropped > compiz fusion it also now can’t be setup the same way and because i like my > window manager to look good its not the 90’s anymore, Enlightenment became > the best choice. you're going to hate us. for e18 will move compositing into core. u take e';s compositor or you don't take e. that's where things are going... :) > With the upcoming release i have some thoughts and ideas about improving > the users experience most of these are as much to stimulate discussion as > much as anything else if none of them are implemented i won’t care too > much, after all i don’t have the time to implement them. > > While enlightenment is a great window manager in my opinion the best, it > has one or 2 weaknesses mostly due to its nature over the last 12 years, > not having a stable release with most people needing to build from source. > Moving from supporting a bunch of developers and experienced linux users to > the point where anyone picking up Linux for the first time can use E17 is a > essential move if E17 is to become one of the major window managers. This > essentially means that we should expect that users don’t know how to build > from source and we will be relying on distributions to provide everything > needed for a good E17 experience. yes yes - we know. every distro wants to do its own packaging and has its own rules and methods. we can't do it all. this is what distribut6ion packagers do. jeffdammeth keeps some nightly build ppa's for ubuntu going so the biggest distro is covered. bodhi package e integrated with the os. gentoo has ebuilds... its not badly covered - well other than distros OFFICIALLY packaging e and we can't make them do it. > Being someone who is not a packager and has no experience doing anything > like it i think moving to a single build tree and efl lib is a great start. > There are 2 other areas that i can see as issues the first being > applications when i am building with easy e17 i struggle to work out what’s > a application what’s stable and what’s worth building maybe there needs to easy-e17 includes a lot of stuff that is half-done and not stable. so that's why. > be a stable and development directory for applications in svn instead of > having them all in the root directory. Similarly with E-MODULES-EXTRA the > poll a couple of weeks back showed that a lot of us use at least a few > modules each but if the common ones like taskbar, cpu, net, comp scale > don’t get moved into E17 and are left as extras they will risk being left > out by some distro’s that only want stable packages or can’t be bothered the modules form extras that are worth it have been moved to core. others are either waiting on something or will never move. comp-scale for example is waiting for compositing to go into core. my advice is don't use anything from e-modules-extras. if you choose to ignore that advice then you accept the consequences of bugs and problems. one of these days i'll come up with some kind of signature thing for modules so core modules are "approved/signed" and unapproved modules will "taint" your e and we'll be asking for e's taint logs if u come asking about bugs/problems. :) > figuring out what is worth packaging. Again i’d suggest a directory for > stable modules and one for development modules so that distributions can > easily find and produce 1 package of extra modules. Maybe it could even e-modules-extra *IS* development modules. :) > have a single build script as well as individual ones even a script that > can be run that will call the individual configures makes and installs. > >From a users point of view i don’t want to install 1 package for each > module i use its just a waste of time when you can unload them and they > don’t use resources anyway. I do currently use daily packages on most of my > machines and i imagine i would swap them to stable build at least until > there’s a feature added that i want. On these machines i would also prefer > to run E17 just from a package manager because i know the packages will be > there and let’s face it its easier. > > There's 1 or 2 things that i’d also like to suggest in terms of features. I > like the way that when you first load E17 and have no profile you go > through a series of steps to setup your profile. I am aware that there > shouldn’t be too many things in this configuration because we don’t want to > overwhelm the users but i have suggestions for one or two more additions > mostly because i’m a little selfish and it would get E17 configured the way > i like it almost straight away but i’m guessing it will also help anyone > coming from Gnome 2/Compiz fusion and Windows. > > * The first isn’t so much a request for a extra feature in this list but > somewhere in the settings panel to reset your profile and go
Re: [E-devel] Some thoughts on the e17 release
2012/7/12 Simon Lees > Being someone who is not a packager and has no experience doing anything > like it i think moving to a single build tree and efl lib is a great start. > There are 2 other areas that i can see as issues the first being > applications when i am building with easy e17 i struggle to work out what’s > a application what’s stable and what’s worth building maybe there needs to > be a stable and development directory for applications in svn instead of > having them all in the root directory. Similarly with E-MODULES-EXTRA the > poll a couple of weeks back showed that a lot of us use at least a few > modules each but if the common ones like taskbar, cpu, net, comp scale > don’t get moved into E17 and are left as extras they will risk being left > out by some distro’s that only want stable packages or can’t be bothered > figuring out what is worth packaging. Again i’d suggest a directory for > stable modules and one for development modules so that distributions can > easily find and produce 1 package of extra modules. Maybe it could even > have a single build script as well as individual ones even a script that > can be run that will call the individual configures makes and installs. > >From a users point of view i don’t want to install 1 package for each > module i use its just a waste of time when you can unload them and they > don’t use resources anyway. I do currently use daily packages on most of my > machines and i imagine i would swap them to stable build at least until > there’s a feature added that i want. On these machines i would also prefer > to run E17 just from a package manager because i know the packages will be > there and let’s face it its easier. > It would be nice something like gstreamer: - e-modules-good - e-modules-bad - e-modules-ugly -- Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira https://plus.google.com/118295250366112843114 http://vinipsmaker.wordpress.com/ http://twitter.com/vinipsmaker Linux user #481186 Majoring in Computer Science (UFAL) -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
[E-devel] Some thoughts on the e17 release
I’ve been using E17 for almost a year since i tried gnome 3 and realised it couldn’t be configured the way i find most productive and since KDE dropped compiz fusion it also now can’t be setup the same way and because i like my window manager to look good its not the 90’s anymore, Enlightenment became the best choice. With the upcoming release i have some thoughts and ideas about improving the users experience most of these are as much to stimulate discussion as much as anything else if none of them are implemented i won’t care too much, after all i don’t have the time to implement them. While enlightenment is a great window manager in my opinion the best, it has one or 2 weaknesses mostly due to its nature over the last 12 years, not having a stable release with most people needing to build from source. Moving from supporting a bunch of developers and experienced linux users to the point where anyone picking up Linux for the first time can use E17 is a essential move if E17 is to become one of the major window managers. This essentially means that we should expect that users don’t know how to build from source and we will be relying on distributions to provide everything needed for a good E17 experience. Being someone who is not a packager and has no experience doing anything like it i think moving to a single build tree and efl lib is a great start. There are 2 other areas that i can see as issues the first being applications when i am building with easy e17 i struggle to work out what’s a application what’s stable and what’s worth building maybe there needs to be a stable and development directory for applications in svn instead of having them all in the root directory. Similarly with E-MODULES-EXTRA the poll a couple of weeks back showed that a lot of us use at least a few modules each but if the common ones like taskbar, cpu, net, comp scale don’t get moved into E17 and are left as extras they will risk being left out by some distro’s that only want stable packages or can’t be bothered figuring out what is worth packaging. Again i’d suggest a directory for stable modules and one for development modules so that distributions can easily find and produce 1 package of extra modules. Maybe it could even have a single build script as well as individual ones even a script that can be run that will call the individual configures makes and installs. >From a users point of view i don’t want to install 1 package for each module i use its just a waste of time when you can unload them and they don’t use resources anyway. I do currently use daily packages on most of my machines and i imagine i would swap them to stable build at least until there’s a feature added that i want. On these machines i would also prefer to run E17 just from a package manager because i know the packages will be there and let’s face it its easier. There's 1 or 2 things that i’d also like to suggest in terms of features. I like the way that when you first load E17 and have no profile you go through a series of steps to setup your profile. I am aware that there shouldn’t be too many things in this configuration because we don’t want to overwhelm the users but i have suggestions for one or two more additions mostly because i’m a little selfish and it would get E17 configured the way i like it almost straight away but i’m guessing it will also help anyone coming from Gnome 2/Compiz fusion and Windows. * The first isn’t so much a request for a extra feature in this list but somewhere in the settings panel to reset your profile and go through the config from scratch. I know from experience it took me 2 or 3 times to go through before i figured everything out. It would be nice to be able to load and save (import/export) profiles as well. As well as parts of profiles like keybindings (I normally keep them the same across machines at least and they are fiddlyier and more time consuming to set up but that part's not a biggy. * The next is a request that in the initial config add a dialog to select the number of workspaces / virtual desktops and if there is more then 1 row selected replace the current Ctrl + Alt + Up / Down with move workspace up and down. It would be also nice if Ctrl + Shift + Alt + Arrow key was bound to move window in the arrow direction as this is what compiz fusion had. The binding for Ctrl + Shift + Alt + Left/Right could be added anyway as there is no bindings on them currently. *Another is shelf config maybe its default position (Top/Bottom), but more critically whether the contents contain the current defaults, or my proposed alternative would be to have a full width shelf with start on the left (Yes i know you can get the main menu from clicking the desktop and i never use it because i use the everything launcher, but anyone else who ever uses my computer uses it because its recognisable enough as its used by several major window managers, after that id have the taskbar then systray battery etc. This would depend on
