Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
Wayne, What version of firmware is the 5D updated to? Good question as it could be related. The firmware on my 5D is 1.1.0 Has anybody tried to reproduce this bug on their 5D? greetings, Gerard. * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
What version of firmware is the 5D updated to? Wayne * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
RE: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
Gerard, I just did a few tests as well. 30D and a Sigma 500 Super. The conclusion is, that I can NOT reproduce your tests, since the flash unit AUTOMATICALLY turns off the FP mode when shutter speed hits 1/250. So, it is not really possible to test for this bug, as I can not shoot with FP mode and 1/250 shutter speed. Maybe it is the flash unit, maybe the camera, I don't know which one turns the FP mode off, but it only seems logical that it is the flash unit. I can't get a hold of a Canon flash right now, but I will be attending a conference, where I am sure may photographers will be, and I'll ask some to do some tests with their setups. hth, Miha. -Original Message- Before jumping to conclusions, I did many tests: 5D+ST-E2+580EX 5D+550EX(master)+580EX(slave) 5D+580EX(master)+550EX(slave) 5D+580EX - on camera SAMO NASLOVNIKU! / ONLY FOR THE INTENDED RECIPIENT! To elektronsko sporocilo in pripete datoteke se sme uporabljati v skladu s pogoji druzbe Mobitel, d. d. Glej: http://disclaimer.mobitel.si/ This e-mail and its attachments are subject to the Mobitel, d. d. disclaimer. See: http://disclaimer.mobitel.si/ * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
RE: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
Gerard, did you try this with another flash unit? And, does it happen with 1/100 and 1/50 speeds as well? I have a Sigma 500, and I can try with that one. Miha -Original Message- It *is* a bug because at the X-sync speed of 1/200 FP flash is not needed, given that -as you correctly stated-, the shutter is fully open. SAMO NASLOVNIKU! / ONLY FOR THE INTENDED RECIPIENT! To elektronsko sporocilo in pripete datoteke se sme uporabljati v skladu s pogoji druzbe Mobitel, d. d. Glej: http://disclaimer.mobitel.si/ This e-mail and its attachments are subject to the Mobitel, d. d. disclaimer. See: http://disclaimer.mobitel.si/ * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
Hi Miha, Nice to hear from you. On 5/11/07, Valencic Miha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gerard, did you try this with another flash unit? And, does it happen with 1/100 and 1/50 speeds as well? I have a Sigma 500, and I can try with that one. Before jumping to conclusions, I did many tests: 5D+ST-E2+580EX 5D+550EX(master)+580EX(slave) 5D+580EX(master)+550EX(slave) 5D+580EX - on camera All different setups show the same behaviou: FP active at Xsync speed of 1/200 (xsync) when the FP feature is active on the flash (see following table for the shutter speed tests I did) Regarding shutter speed, I also did different test Setup EOS5D + ST-E2 + 580EX 1/160 + FP = NO FP (expected behavior) 1/160 + NO FP = NO FP (expected behavior) 1/200 + FP = FP ***UNEXPECTED BEHAVIOUR*** = BUG!!! 1/200 + NO FP = NO FP (expected behaviour) 1/250 + FP = FP (expected behaviour) 1/250 + NO FP = not possible in ETTL mode (shutter speed won't go beyond xsync when a flash is attached and FP is not active) I repeated the test on the EOS10D that I have as backup Setup EOS 10D + ST-E2 + 580EX 1/160 + FP = NO FP (expected behavior) 1/160 + NO FP = NO FP (expected behavior) 1/200 + FP = NO FP (expected behavior = no bug) 1/200 + NO FP = NO FP (expected behaviour) 1/250 + FP = FP (expected behaviour) And yes, I appreciate if you could repeat the test. Do you own an EOS 5D? Also a tests with another body (like a 20D, 30D 1D are appreciated to narrow the scope down to the 5D, or even to my own body) greetz, Gerard. * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
At 7:55 PM -0400 5/10/07, Mat Hayashibara wrote: 1/200 is the documented X-Sync speed of the EOS 5D, Clue: the flash has no idea what camera it is connected to, and there are EOS in the line with a top sync speed of 1/125th. That's no bug... it's a feature. =) If you don't want FP sync at 1/200th on a 5D it's your responsibility to turn it off. The camera and flash communicate. This is not a 'dumb' flash with no options; it is a flash which knows what the focal length of the lens is, and it knows what the flash sync speed is, and the camera is also a rather sophisticated one that communicates a lot of information to the flash. That, after all, is what all those other contacts are for. As I said before, Gerard is right. This is a bug. -- *Henning J. Wulff /|\ Wulff Photography Design /###\ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |[ ]| http://www.archiphoto.com * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
On 5/11/07, Mat Hayashibara [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The basic flash synch speed is the fastest one at which the shutter curtains are fully open and expose the entire film frame simultaneously... any faster than than, and the shutter opening is a slit travelling across the film plane formed by slightly offsetting when the first and second shutter curtains open. Mat, Exactly! 1/200 is the documented X-Sync speed of the EOS 5D, That's NOT a bug, and if you think about it, it's the only way they can make focal plane flash work for shutter speeds greater than the inherent electronic flash sync speed of the shutter... as the curtain opening travels across the film plane, the flash fires MULTIPLE TIMES so that every portion of the frame gets the same flash exposure. It has to fire once for every width of the curtain opening as the slit progresses across the film plane. That's why the flash range decreases so much in FP/high-speed sync mode, due to the multiple discharges. It *is* a bug because at the X-sync speed of 1/200 FP flash is not needed, given that -as you correctly stated-, the shutter is fully open. And indeed, the flash range decreases dramatically when it's actually not expected. -greetings, Gerard. * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
RE: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gerard Maas Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:07 PM To: eos@a1.nl Subject: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug Hi all, While doing some 'frozen flash' images I discovered some unexpected behavior of the EOS 5D: Some background first: FP Flash, also known as High Speed Sync and denoted with the H(Bolt) icon is normally used for fill-in flash in bright conditions where your shutter speed exceeds the XSync limit (1/200 on the 5D). That way you can keep using wire apertures to achieve a nice background blur and still flash your subject for fill-in. It actually works by firing a seemingly continuous beam of light for the length of time that the shutter is open (avoiding in that way the banding that you would observe otherwise). This feature requires a much higher energy output than normal flash and therefore your flash range is dramatically reduced. Well, all this bg info is to be able to explain the bug in simple terms: Even when FP Flash mode is active on the flash (H[bolt] icon active on the flash LCD or red led lighted up on the ST-E2), the FP mode should only activate when your shutter speed exceeds XSync speed. The problem I found is that the 5D is activating the FP mode also when used at XSync speed. This behaviour is unexpected and certainly undesired, given that it will dramatically affect flash exposures. It reduces the flash range, increases recycle times and consumes batteries faster. To make it very concrete: If you have FP flash active on the flash and your shutter speed is 1/200, the flash will fire in FP flash mode (also called 'long burning'), so instead of having a typical flash duration of 1/1, the flash will fire for 1/200, an exposure 5x longer! The tricky side of this bug is that there's no apparent visible difference between normal flash and FP flash. You can only observe this bug by photographing a rapidly moving subject, like running water. In my case I was photographing an hourglass running and noticed the bug when I was unable to freeze the sand grains falling, even with the lowest flash power setting (that is supposed to have a duration of about 1/35000 of a second) I've submitted this bug to Canon and I'm still waiting for a response. It would be nice if some of you, using an EOS5D and a Speedlite could try reproduce the problem. That way I will know if it's only an issue in my camera. You can see the images that triggered the whole story on my blog: http://www.gerardmaas.net greetz, Gerard. It sounds to me that the flash is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. My 550EX manual (p32) makes no mention of the flash shifting to non-FP mode when the shutter speed drops to (or below) the X sync speed. To me, the bug is that the H in the viewfinder disappears when the shutter speed is set to (or below) x sync, even though the flash will still fire in FP mode. Tom P * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
Tom wrote: It sounds to me that the flash is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. My 550EX manual (p32) makes no mention of the flash shifting to non-FP mode when the shutter speed drops to (or below) the X sync speed. Tom, FP makes no sense for shutter speeds at Xsync or below. I tried at 1/160 and it is not happening, a notch higher to 1/200 and the bug shows its ugly face. I also tried the same experiment with my EOS 10D and at x-sync, the EOS10D is not activating FP mode, even when the flash FP mode is on. Imagine that you have CF-3=1 meaning that on AV mode, your shutter speed defaults to xsync speed (1/200), then if you forgot to turn FP mode off, the bug will be playing havoc with your flash range and exposure. I have never seen that behavior before (on film or digital). -greetz, Gerard. * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
To make it very concrete: If you have FP flash active on the flash and your shutter speed is 1/200, the flash will fire in FP flash mode (also called 'long burning'), so instead of having a typical flash duration of 1/1, the flash will fire for 1/200, an exposure 5x longer! The tricky side of this bug is that there's no apparent visible difference between normal flash and FP flash. You can only observe this bug by photographing a rapidly moving subject, like running water. That's NOT a bug, and if you think about it, it's the only way they can make focal plane flash work for shutter speeds greater than the inherent electronic flash sync speed of the shutter... as the curtain opening travels across the film plane, the flash fires MULTIPLE TIMES so that every portion of the frame gets the same flash exposure. It has to fire once for every width of the curtain opening as the slit progresses across the film plane. That's why the flash range decreases so much in FP/high-speed sync mode, due to the multiple discharges. The basic flash synch speed is the fastest one at which the shutter curtains are fully open and expose the entire film frame simultaneously... any faster than than, and the shutter opening is a slit travelling across the film plane formed by slightly offsetting when the first and second shutter curtains open. Life is what happens to you... While you're busy making other plans! Mat Hayashibara [EMAIL PROTECTED] * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
To make it very concrete: If you have FP flash active on the flash and your shutter speed is 1/200, the flash will fire in FP flash mode (also called 'long burning'), so instead of having a typical flash duration of 1/1, the flash will fire for 1/200, an exposure 5x longer! The tricky side of this bug is that there's no apparent visible difference between normal flash and FP flash. You can only observe this bug by photographing a rapidly moving subject, like running water. That's NOT a bug, and if you think about it, it's the only way they can make focal plane flash work for shutter speeds greater than the inherent electronic flash sync speed of the shutter... as the curtain opening travels across the film plane, the flash fires MULTIPLE TIMES so that every portion of the frame gets the same flash exposure. It has to fire once for every width of the curtain opening as the slit progresses across the film plane. That's why the flash range decreases so much in FP/high-speed sync mode, due to the multiple discharges. The basic flash synch speed is the fastest one at which the shutter curtains are fully open and expose the entire film frame simultaneously... any faster than than, and the shutter opening is a slit travelling across the film plane formed by slightly offsetting when the first and second shutter curtains open. All that is well known to anyone who uses flash. The fact that FP mode, or HS mode is still active when the shutter speed drops to the X-sync speed is definitely a bug, an undesirable feature or whatever you want to call it. Gerard's points are well made and fully valid. At the x-sync speed and below standard operation, ie, short duration should be effected, as it gives you many more options and is considerably more efficient. -- *Henning J. Wulff /|\ Wulff Photography Design /###\ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |[ ]| http://www.archiphoto.com * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
Hi, Surely the simple way to see if this behaviour is actually occurring is to set your shutter speed to something very long (eg 1/2 second) and fire with the flash in FP mode. If it is automatically switching to normal sync flash mode then the flash will pop as normal. If it is staying (erroneously) in FP mode, then the flash will burn for a half second. I doubt this is the case very much and have read notes from Chuck Westfall that indicate FP flash is automatically turned off when shutter speed is slower than X-sync. I would hypothesize that you have too much ambient light in your setup to make flash light the dominant light source. You should try this: shoot one frame of your fast moving subject at each of 1/160, 1/200, 1/250, and 1/320. Assuming flash X-sync is 1/250 then you should see essentially the same thing at the first 3 shutter speeds, and a lot more blurring at 1/320. Do this in the darkest room you can with a narrow aperture and low ISO to eliminate ambient light as a factor in your exposure. Regards David * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
Clue: the flash has no idea what camera it is connected to What?! The flash knows the current focal length of my zoom, which focus points to AF assist for, and whether my camera is a 1.6x crop or not, yet it doesn't know what the top sync speed is? There is no way that is correct. David * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
Re: EOS 5D High Speed Flash Sync Mode - potential bug
1/200 is the documented X-Sync speed of the EOS 5D, Clue: the flash has no idea what camera it is connected to, and there are EOS in the line with a top sync speed of 1/125th. That's no bug... it's a feature. =) If you don't want FP sync at 1/200th on a 5D it's your responsibility to turn it off. Life is what happens to you... While you're busy making other plans! Mat Hayashibara [EMAIL PROTECTED] * *** *** * For list instructions, including unsubscribe, see: *http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/eos_list.htm ***
