Re: Europa submersible hypothetical
SF writers do it this way: We skip over the ruminations of the Bruce Moomaws of the world, ...So here it is: The material? Water. The location? Europa. The customer? A species from a planet in dire need of water. The propulsion system? Why, the usual, of course. Greg Bear pulled that trick with _Forge of God_ but really, if you're going to market water to other species in the galaxy (and there's no reason to think we'd want to -- star spectrums show that water ain't rare in this part of space. Besides, who's to say we won't need it for our own colonial/terraforming use?) it's be a lot easier to just go hitch an ion engine/mass driver to a Kupier Belt object, and move it to the desired pickup window. After all, you don't have that big, nasty gravity well of Jupiter to deal with, and there are no "native biospheres" to worry about. Jayme Lynn Blaschke ___ "The Dust" coming April 2001 in THE ANT-MEN OF TIBET, AND OTHER STORIES from Big Engine http://www.bigengine.co.uk/index.htm Blaschke Home Realm http://www.vvm.com/~caius (u are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Europa submersible hypothetical
John, In a way that is what I have always hoped for the Icepick Web site, as it does contain a list of related Europa sites and list members. I know it has not been updated in a while. Jeff Foust is the Web Master for Icepick and would be the one to enhance the site, so let's talk to him: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I appreciate the support you and everyone is giving Icepick. I no longer regard it as just a thought experiment but now as a real possibility someday. Larry At 07:29 PM 02/27/2001 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Larry: Are there any plans to make a one-stop-shopping Europa website? Clearly, we all could use a website that: 1) had various demonstrated and hypothetical data lists / pictures, etc, about Europa (and Io, if possible). 2) had prospective pictures of any Europan submersible, crew parameters (if manned) and updates on JPLs work. 3) had a past-email list of some of the better, more informative emails posted here. 4) Oh, and an email / address list of various members. At this point, I have no idea how many people around the world are part of this little discussion circle, but there's some phenomenally bright and knowledgeable people out there. -- John Harlow Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Planetary exploration in the time of astrobiology: Protecting against biological contamination
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/98/5/2128 Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Vol. 98, Issue 5, 2128-2131, February 27, 2001 Special Feature Perspective Planetary exploration in the time of astrobiology: Protecting against biological contamination John D. Rummel* National Aeronautics and Space Administration Headquarters, Washington, DC 20546 These are intriguing times in the exploration of other solar-system bodies. Continuing discoveries about life on Earth and the return of data suggesting the presence of liquid water environments on or under the surfaces of other planets and moons have combined to suggest the significant possibility that extraterrestrial life may exist in this solar system. Similarly, not since the Viking missions of the mid-1970s has there been as great an appreciation for the potential for Earth life to contaminate other worlds. Current plans for the exploration of the solar system include constraints intended to prevent biological contamination from being spread by solar system exploration missions. * E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.061021398 == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
ISS Cost Overruns May Stop Manned Mars Mission Plans
Feb. 28, 2001 Proposal scraps Mars mission plan Former JSC chief's cuts would try to recoup station overrun By Steven Siceloff FLORIDA TODAY CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. - Planning for manned missions to Mars will be put on hold, training may be curtailed, and the astronaut corps could shrink later this year under a plan former Johnson Space Center Director George Abbey detailed the day he was reassigned. Abbey, who directed JSC since 1995, ordered all research on manned Mars exploration halted, as well as some biological research while managers comb the agency's budget for ways to trim some $4 billion over the next few years. http://www.flatoday.com/news/space/stories/2001a/feb/spa022801b.htm == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: SF notes
There are serious dangers with this approach in SF. To some extent, of course, it HAS to be used -- but in any SF story, if you're going to make flying leaps in scientific extrapolation,you have to try to make them logically consistent, and limit any radical changes you make in known scientific laws as much as possible. Otherwise you end up with self-indulgent fantasy masquerading as SF -- and while there is most definitely such a thing as good fantasy, and there's no absolute sharp borderline between fantasy and SF, the particular literary strengths and weaknesses of the two areas are significantly different. Quite a few SF and fantasy writers have written intelligently (by which I mean genuine literary analysis, not just science nerdism) on this problem, and I recommend you try to track down some of what they've had to say. Bruce is 100% right, of course. In our discussions, I've found him extrememly well read in science fiction, and with this observation he's spot on. Much the same opinions can be found amid the newsgroup discussions at www.SFF.net . Now, it's possible to do more surreal, laws of reality don't apply kinds of stories in a Zelazny or Moorcockian sort of way, but those writers are known first and foremost as stylists with incredible grasps of the English language. If you're going to attempt something similar, then you'd better be prepared to knock yourself out reaching their plateau. Yes, they disregard laws of reality and such in a lot of their work, but I've never seen this done because it was "a convenient way out of a problem." Everything they do has a reason beind it, and you never see them use "and the hero then escapes the inescapapeable death trap." To whit: If ANYTHING is possible, nothing matters. A hand-waving "then a miracle happens" plot point is a sure sign of bad writing. Deus ex machina sucks. And it cheats the reader or viewer. You get it in various Star Trek series a lot later in their runs. In fact, you get in TV and movie SF a lot more than anywhere else. Written fiction has higher standards, mainly because in order to get published by a non-vanity press, writers have to be familiar with the conventions of the genre and pitfalls. Hollywood SF is invariably written by Hollywood "pros" who often can't be bothered with even reading the source material. Which is why we get drek like Soldier, the Sixth Day, Forever Young, Total Recall, Starship Troopers, Timecop... an infinite variety of similar takes on the same inbred themes over and over. Seriously, most things produced out of Hollywood in the last 30 years (with a few notable exceptions) are based pretty much around concepts that were already cliche back in the days of Hugo Gernsback. And the situation with fantasy is even worse, but hopefully the new Lord of the Rings films will change that. There seems to be a tendancy to lump Hollywood (known as Sci-Fi) with publishing (known as SF). They aren't the same, and most writers cringe whenever Hollywood lobs another turkey like Battlefield Earth into the fray (if anyone's even *glanced* at the book, you'll know there *no way* such drek could make a watchable film. But then Bridge Publications isn't exactly an unbiased publishing house). Sci-Fi has come to embody all the *bad* qualities people associate with science fiction, but unfortuantely (and I see this on this list as well) the general public tends to think Sci-Fi is the whole. Look, if Hollywood really wants to impress, then let them film an unbastardized version of Anderson's _Tau Zero_ that wasn't dumbed down to the lowest common denominator (as opposed to _The High Crusade_). THAT'S a movie that would blow people's minds! Jayme Lynn Blaschke ___ "The Dust" coming April 2001 in THE ANT-MEN OF TIBET, AND OTHER STORIES from Big Engine http://www.bigengine.co.uk/index.htm Blaschke Home Realm http://www.vvm.com/~caius (u are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: SF notes
Red Storm Rising was Clancy's first, and best book. It simply gathered together available naval data, and put it together in the context of a war. The book was so technical, so plausible, that the US military intelligence services were at first disturbed, then delighted, with the attention it threw on military technology. Nope. _Red Storm Rising_ was Clancy's follow-up to _The Hunt for Red October_ which I feel is his best book. _Red Storm Rising_ was far too heavily influenced by Gen. John Hackett's _The Third World War_ and _The Third World War: The Untold Story_ to suit me. It also echoed _First Salvo_ an Aegis-cruiser age naval warfare novel in which a conventional WWIII between us and the Soviets is over in a week. Jayme Lynn Blaschke ___ "The Dust" coming April 2001 in THE ANT-MEN OF TIBET, AND OTHER STORIES from Big Engine http://www.bigengine.co.uk/index.htm Blaschke Home Realm http://www.vvm.com/~caius (u are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: SF notes
In a message dated 2/28/2001 6:39:19 AM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nope. _Red Storm Rising_ was Clancy's follow-up to _The Hunt for Red = October_ which I feel is his best book. _Red Storm Rising_ was far too = heavily influenced by Gen. John Hackett's _The Third World War_ and _The = Third World War: The Untold Story_ to suit me. It also echoed _First = Salvo_ an Aegis-cruiser age naval warfare novel in which a conventional = WWIII between us and the Soviets is over in a week. Ouch. You were right. I meant Red October. Red Storm Rising was a little too scattered. Red October was concentrated closely on a narrow subject, and was all the more gripping for it, and allowed a closer 'feel' for the nature of submarine warfare, up close and personal. I'd imagine a good space exploration book would feature a similar 'up close' feel for the astronauts and their enabling technologies, but the 'enemies' would be the terrors of deep space itself. -- JHB == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: SF notes
In a message dated 2/28/2001 10:28:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So... imagine taking some of the technologies we've discussed here, some of the real world ideas, and then writing a story featuring them. How about a story about a manned (sorry, Bruce, its got to be manned, for drama!) trip to Europa, set in 2010... ideally, it would be Clarke's 2010 story, written with real knowledge, not speculation and deus ex machina technology. Interesting you should mention that... DSMichaels
finding material resources in space was submersible..
In reply to man someday finding and using resources from moons, asteroids and other worlds. I don't think anyone will be able to do that until there is a population center living "off-world". Maybe in O'Neals colonies or on Moon or Mars. The cost of bringing them (resources) to earth is not practical but lifting things from earth to support a population in space is even less practical. There must be some number of people living and/or working in space that even for NASA standards it becomes too expensive to resupply them from earth. I haven't a clue what that number might be but I'm sure it could be estimated by looking at the cost of re-supplying ISS for the ultimate maximum crew of 7 to live and work there. I suspect the cost would not be linear to support 70 or 700 people in space at once but at some point a cost analysis should show that obtaining water from a small carbonaceous asteroid or a comet might be cheaper than hauling thousands/millions of gallons of water from earth. The same for construction of additional habitats. The modules for the space station are much too high for ordinary living quarters. The assumption is, of course, that the 70 or 700, or more, people will have something to do in space. They must be making products or providing services to other people on earth or in space at a profit or they'll never be there in the first place. I would suggest that providing air and water and food would be the first services offered. Eventually mining an asteroid will be less expensive than getting the materials from the earth or even the moon. Getting to the point of really "needing" cheaper resources is the problem to be solved. Mickey == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: finding material resources in space was submersible..
Well, it follows that any kind of moon or Mars base will have to be self-sufficient to at least a limited extent. Any kind of base expansion will likely rely on sintering regolith into bricks for construction, and processing local air and soils for oxygen and water supplies (of course it should be easier to get water on Mars). Really, any planetary colonies will likely be isolated physically, socially and culturally for quite a while, unless stellar propulsion improves dramatically in the next 50 years. Even then I don't see starfaring trade being a major player in the grand scheme of things. Said colonies will likely be self-sufficient out of necessity, with only entertainment and information exchanged to any great extent. Jayme Lynn Blaschke ___ "The Dust" coming April 2001 in THE ANT-MEN OF TIBET, AND OTHER STORIES from Big Engine http://www.bigengine.co.uk/index.htm Blaschke Home Realm http://www.vvm.com/~caius (u are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: SF notes
In a message dated 2/28/2001 11:25:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ha! Such optomism here. We'll be lucky to get a *robot* probe launched to = Europa by 2010, much less a manned mission. Such a story would have to be = based on an alternate history, perhaps one in which Apollo had continued = unfettered and established a moon base by 1980, and missions to Mars by = 1990. As it stands now, I'll be mightily surprised if we reach Mars by = 2030 (and that's not taking into account the recent hiatus of Mars mission = studies). =20 Jayme Lynn Blaschke Of course, there would have to be a really, desperately compelling reason for a manned expedition to Europa to be mounted by, say, 2020. It would probably h
New NEAR data
http://near.jhuapl.edu/ February 27, 2001/B -- When NASA's Near Earth Asteroid Rendezvous (NEAR) spacecraft left for asteroid 433 Eros five years ago, scientists weren't certain what they would find when the probe arrived. Was Eros a 30-km fragment from a planet that broke apart billions of years ago? Or perhaps a jumble of space boulders barely held together by gravity? Was Eros young or old, tough or fragile ... no one knew for sure. But now, after a year in orbit and a daring landing on the asteroid itself, NEAR Shoemaker is beaming back data that could confirm what many scientists have lately come to believe: Asteroid Eros is not a piece of some long-dead planet or a loose collection of space debris. Instead, it's a relic from the dawn of our solar system, one of the original building blocks of planets that astronomers call "planetesimals." As NEAR Shoemaker was heading for its historic landing on Feb. 12, 2001, team members hoped the spacecraft --which was designed to orbit, not land-- would simply survive. When it did survive, they set their sights a little higher. From its perch on the surface of the asteroid, NEAR's gamma-ray spectrometer can detect key chemical signatures of a planetesimal -- data that scientists are anxious to retrieve. "The gamma-ray instrument is more sensitive on the ground than it was in orbit," says Goddard's Jack Trombka, team leader for the GRS. "And the longer we can accumulate data the better." NASA recently gave the go-ahead for NEAR's mission to continue through Feb. 28th, tacking four days onto an extension granted just after the spacecraft landed. To do its work the GRS relies partly on cosmic rays, high-energy particles accelerated by distant supernova explosions. When cosmic rays hit Eros, they make the asteroid glow, although it's not a glow you can see with your eyes; the asteroid shines with gamma-rays. "Cosmic rays shatter atomic nuclei in the asteroid's soil," explains Trombka. Neutrons that fly away from the cosmic ray impact sites hit other atoms in turn. "These secondary neutrons can excite atomic nuclei (by inelastic scattering) without breaking them apart." Such excited atoms emit gamma-rays that the GRS can decipher to reveal which elements are present. "We can detect cosmic-ray excited oxygen, iron and silicon, along with the naturally radioactive elements potassium, thorium and uranium," says Trombka. Measuring the abundances of these substances is an important test of the planetesimal hypothesis. Planetesimals came to be when the solar system was just a swirling interstellar cloud, slowly collapsing to form the Sun and planets. Dust grains condensed within that primeval gas. The grains were small, but by hitting and sticking together they formed pebble-sized objects that fell into the plane of the rotating nebula. The pebbles accumulated into boulders, which in turn became larger bodies, 1 to 100 km wide. These were planetesimals -- the fundamental building blocks of the planets. For reasons unknown Eros was never captured by a growing protoplanet. It remained a planetesimal even as other worlds in the solar system grew and matured. Dust grains are accumulating into asteroid-sized planetesimals, the building blocks of planets. Fully-developed planets like Earth are chemically segregated -- that is, they have heavier elements near their cores and lighter ones at the surface. Planetary scientists call this "differentiation." If Eros were a chip from a planet that broke apart, perhaps in the asteroid belt, it would exhibit chemical signatures corresponding to some layer from a differentiated world. For example, Eros might be iron-rich if it came from the core of such a planet or silicon-rich if it came from the crust. Instead, quot;orbital data from the x-ray spectrometer (a low-energy cousin of the GRS) showed Eros is very much like a type of undifferentiated meteorite we find on Earth called ordinary chondrites,quot; says Andrew Cheng, the NEAR project scientist at Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (APL), which manages the mission for NASA. Eros seems to harbor a mixture of elements that you would only find in a solar system body unaltered by melting (an unavoidable step in the process of forming rocky planets). But, says Cheng, there is a possible discrepancy. "The abundance of the element sulfur on Eros is less than we would expect from an ordinary chondrite. However, the x-ray spectra tell us only about the uppermost hundred microns of the surface, and we do not know if the sulfur depletion occurs only in a thin surface layer or throughout the bulk of the asteroid." The GRS can go deeper, as much as 10 cm below the surface. Although the instrument can't detect sulfur, it is sensitive to gamma-ray emissions from other elements such as radioactive potassium that are indicators of melting. Like sulfur, potassium is a volatile element -- it easily evaporates when a rock is heated. Finding plenty of potassium would
SETI Education Special Opportunities Update
GREETINGS SETI EDUCATION NEWS SUBSCRIBERS! == SETI INSTITUTE CURRICULUM FIELD TEST CONTACT JANE FISHER [EMAIL PROTECTED] Grades 9-10: Our "Voyages Through Time" project is seeking field test teachers and schools across the USA. This project receives major funding from the National Science Foundation. The field test application deadline is February 28, 2001. For more information, please link to our online application at https://www.seti.org/cgi-bin/vtt_cgi/vtt.cgi == ILLINOIS STATE UNIVERSITY CURRICULUM FIELD TEST CONTACT RICHARD SATCHWELL Grade 6: The Integrated Mathematics, Science, and Technology (IMaST) project is currently seeking educators to field test a sixth grade integrated curriculum in the United States in the 2001-2002 school year. If you are interested in learning more about this opportunity, please visit the IMaST Web site at http://www.ilstu.edu/depts/cemast/application.htm or call (309) 438-3089. The application deadline is March 30, 2001. == STUDENT DESIGN CONTESTS High school: An industry simulation for student teams to design a space settlement to orbit Earth. Finalist teams will be flown to Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Enter and register to receive competition materials at the International Space Station Design site at http://space.bsdi.com/ Hard copy design submittal due April 11, 2001. Grades 6-12: Students may participate in the NASA Ames Space Settlement Design Contest. 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Honorable Mention prizewinners in six categories will be invited to NASA Ames in June for a tour. For information, guidelines, and entry forms visit http://www.nas.nasa.gov/Services/Education/SpaceSettlement/Contest/ Entry deadline is March 31, 2001 == NEED TO MAKE CONTACT? We can be reached via phone, fax, particle mail, or e-mail. SETI Institute 2035 Landings Drive Mountain View, CA 94043 (650) 961-6633 main number (650) 961-7099 fax Subscribe or unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Gamma-ray problems on NEAR?
Despite all the sunny statements from NEAR's researchers about the quality of its gamma-ray spectrometer data, one of my Inside Sources in the planetary science community told me a few days ago that one so-far concealed scandal about NEAR is that neither its X-ray nor gamma-ray spectal data have been nearly as good as expected: "Gamma-ray is hardly working at all." He added that he thought this was probably due to the fact that both instruments were based on the Applied Physics Lab's military programs and just weren't optimally designed for science (although the gamma-ray sensor has proven excellent at detecting intergalactic gamma-ray bursts, since they're similar to nuclear explosions). Sure enough, the latest "Sky Telescope" news bulletin on NEAR confirms the problem: www.skypub.com/news/news.shtml#donut "The gamma-ray spectrometer hs surffered from poor sensitivity -- it had failed to detect anything even when the spacecraft was close to Eros. More time in orbit would have improved the spectrometer's meager counting statistics, so team leader Jacob Trombka was not happy about the decision to attempt a landing." After the landing, however: " 'The detector system is working well,' Trombka reports... 'Things are looking very good,' he told 'Sky Telescope. 'Had I known this was going to happen, I wouldn't have been upset about landing at all!' " Bruce Moomaw == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Water eruptions on Ganymede?
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010228/sc/space_ganymede_dc_1.html Wednesday February 28 3:35 PM ET Galileo Images Show Slushy Surface on Jupiter's Moon LONDON (Reuters) - Digital images of Jupiter's largest moon show a bright flat surface that scientists said on Wednesday was probably caused by eruptions of icy volcanic material. Using stereo images from the Galileo and Voyager space missions, scientists at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri and researchers in California and Texas have identified variations on the surface of Ganymede, the largest moon in the solar system. ``What we think we're seeing is evidence of an eruption of water on the surface of Ganymede,'' said William McKinnon, a professor of Earth and Planetary Sciences at Washington University. ``They're very much like rift valleys on the Earth and they're paved with something pretty smooth. The material in the troughs is more like terrestrial lava in terms of its fluidity,'' he added in a statement. The research published in the science journal Nature adds more evidence about the formation of Ganymede's unusual features which scientists have been hotly debating. Understanding what caused parts of Ganymede's surface to be ripped apart while other areas were left untouched will help scientists understand how Jupiter's moons evolved. The stereo images show bright flat terrain that McKinnon and his colleagues believe is evidence of water or slush that emerged one billion years ago. ``We can see this material is banked up against edges of the walls of the trough and appears to have been pretty fluid, much more so than solid, albeit warm, ice. These features directly support the idea that they were created by volcanism,'' said McKinnon. In a commentary on the research, Louise Prockter of the Applied Physics Laboratory at The Johns Hopkins University in Maryland said the research improves scientific knowledge about the giant moon. As more images of Ganymede taken by Galileo are analyzed its secrets will be revealed. ``They should tell us more about the relative effects of volcanic and tectonic activity on this giant among moons, and so about the evolution of both its surface and its interior,'' she said. Galileo was launched aboard the space shuttle Atlantis on October 18, 1989. The Voyager images are from 1979. == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Magnetic Chains from Mars
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:30:41 -0600 Subject: Magnetic Chains from Mars To: "NASA Science News" [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: NASA Science News [EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Owner: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: "NASA Science News" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NASA Science News for February 28, 2001 Curious chains of magnetic crystals have turned up in a meteorite from Mars. Why didn't the single-file crystals collapse long ago into a magnetized clump? Scientists say ancient martian microbes may have kept them in line. FULL STORY at http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast28feb_1.htm?list86654 --- This is a free service. Habla espaol? If you do, check out our new Spanish-language web site at http://ciencia.msfc.nasa.gov. If you need to get in touch with us directly, please go to http://science.nasa.gov/comments Home page: http://science.nasa.gov (u are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Why Go to Space?
In a message dated 2/28/2001 7:10:05 AM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The assumption is, of course, that the 70 or 700, or more, people will have something to do in space. They must be making products or providing services to other people on earth or in space at a profit or they'll never be there in the first place. I would suggest that providing air and water and food would be the first services offered. Eventually mining an asteroid will be less expensive than getting the materials from the earth or even the moon. Getting to the point of really "needing" cheaper resources is the problem to be solved. Mickey, I think you've got a clear headed approach, but I still must ask: what is the underlying reason for 70+ people in space, to manufacture air, water, and food? It doesn't follow to want to put all that effort and expense into putting people into space, simply so you can put people in space. We still need an underlying reason. It was suggested that tourism might be one such cause celebre'. Looking at the Earth from LEO, flying on the moon, these all sound like great things to do... IF it's cost effective tourism. The trouble is, it seems to me that you'd have to have package tours available for $25,000 or so for the average person to even contemplate such a thing (well, really, the average well-to-do person). However, I've got to play Devil's Advocate here, since it will come up, sooner or later, in real terms. How can a company, which makes tours to space, put tourists in space for a reasonable cost to the tourist, despite the huge risks involved? Imagine the insurance premiums, the safety concerns, the nightmare if there was a rocket disaster. So, we need another reason than tourism, at least for the initial 70+ people. Up here in Alaska, it was always resources, the chance to 'strike it rich' that drove people to risk their lives and fortunes in terrible hardships. I'd imagine it will be the same for space. But, again, we come to the problem: what's the gain? Why bother mining resources in space, when the market for them is on Earth, and the only reason for having such resources in orbit would be to construct additional infrastructure (which you don't need, if you don't need the resources down on Earth to begin with). I submit to you, that there is ONE resource which is of great value, which WILL compel people from all over the world to risk lives, fortunes, and everthing on a fool's errand. That resource? A free hand. IF the UN or some such authoritative body would simply write a Space Treaty allowing a 50 year claim to the first person or corporation (not a national interest) to land on a chunk of asteroid, planet, or whatever, it might then launch a space rush. What I'm talking about, I suppose, is a sort of homesteading plan. There is considerable precedent for such a concept -- Mare Librum, written by Grotius, in 1612, was one of the first clearly stated treatises supporting an 'open sea', the property of no nation. Corporations would clearly love such a concept, as they would get an automatic tax holiday for all goods / services / profits produced in space. They would also get a 'free hand' to do all the research they wanted. Clearly, there would be unscrupulous research, and there would be many corners cut, as there always have been at frontiers. Various extremist groups would also love such a concept. It would allow them to practice their extremism without fear of interference. In the process, space would be colonized. In time, stable minds and concepts would prevail, as they always have. Does what I'm talking about sound crazy? It is merely an 'updated' version of exactly how the East Coast of North America was colonized, 400 years ago. At that time, there was no real motive to go to a distant and hostile shore, except for the fact that it WAS distant, far from the King and his minions. So, there was Cortez, and Pizarro, and Jamestown, and Plymouth. This world, humanity, NEEDS a frontier, a place for all the fringe people and ideas and bold experiments to take place. With such a concept, the point of being in space is not to ferry goods or people back and forth, but simply to be in space, far away from Earth, its gravity, problems, and government. -- John Harlow Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: SF notes
In a message dated 2/28/2001 7:25:37 AM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ha! Such optomism here. We'll be lucky to get a *robot* probe launched to = Europa by 2010, much less a manned mission. Such a story would have to be = based on an alternate history, perhaps one in which Apollo had continued = unfettered and established a moon base by 1980, and missions to Mars by = 1990. As it stands now, I'll be mightily surprised if we reach Mars by = 2030 (and that's not taking into account the recent hiatus of Mars mission = studies). =20 Jayme Lynn Blaschke Such dreadful pessimism, and from a science fiction writer no less! Jayme, 50 years ago, concepts for the year 2001 all had us driving around in air cars. Here we are in 2001 -- no jet cars, but we have something better... the internet. Why bother commuting to the office, when you can do something quite similar simply by sitting down at your keyboard, and comunicating with people all over the world? My point: no one foresaw the internet, not even Al Gore. Technology is moving extremely fast (tell me, how many of you remember a C-64 computer? It had just 39.7 kilobytes of useable memory... it was top of the line for home use just 20 years ago). Social change is also moving extremely fast. I suggest to you that 3-5 years of OUR time is equivalent to 10-15 years of time 2 generations back. So... 2030? That's really like saying 2100. I don't think it will take that long to get some sort of manned mission going. Once Mars is landed on, a huge 'barrier' will have been breached. Landing on a non-terrestial world, for any extended time, will be a huge leap. Presumeably, there will be limited infrastructure left on Mars for followup missions. Along the way, various corporations and smaller countries will follow, where the big space agencies have led. Once a manned Mars mission takes place (and remember, it may be possible that the astronauts spend a month or more there, after having spent months already in space!), a mission to Europa or beyond becomes extremely plausible. -- John Harlow Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: SF notes
This is why I'm beginning to love this site! I think of myself as a SF writer, even tho I haven't had anything published yet, and the ideas presented in just the past day or so challenge me no end. In most ways, SF is no different from any other form of writing: One must have a good story to tell, and one must tell it in an interesting, preferably exciting way. That means not only imagination, but writing skill as well. That's why the "space operas" do so well--fascinating stories, long on drama but often short on science. So what? The readers/viewers don't really care much whether Europa is really an ice capped slush ball as they do about the trials and tribulations, the failures and successes of the folks who might go there to do whatever it is they're there to do. Of course, a SF writer who uses real, accurate, solid science in the story is way ahead, but only if he/she can put it in language the average reader can handle. For example, on this site I am generally in awe of the real scientists who contribute, but unfortunately I really understand the significance of only a fraction of what I read. I barely made it through high school chemistry and physics, and math beyond the basics is still beyond me. So as a hopeful writer, what am I to make of the descriptions of the chemical reactions likely to be encountered in the under ice oceans of Europa? How can I use that in a story I can sell to the average reader? Answer: I can't. But I can raise the questions, the possibilities, the speculations. All of SF is about "What If...?" and there is no limit. Personally, I shy away from "sword and sorcery," but just about anything else is fair game. How long have I been at it? Well, let me put it this way: As a kid, I used to ride my bike past Robert Heinlein's house. You take if from there. Thanks for the patience of all the readers of this discussion, and I hope you will stick with me. G. B. Leatherwood - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 6:32 PM Subject: Re: SF notes In a message dated 2/28/2001 7:25:37 AM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ha! Such optomism here. We'll be lucky to get a *robot* probe launched to = Europa by 2010, much less a manned mission. Such a story would have to be = based on an alternate history, perhaps one in which Apollo had continued = unfettered and established a moon base by 1980, and missions to Mars by = 1990. As it stands now, I'll be mightily surprised if we reach Mars by = 2030 (and that's not taking into account the recent hiatus of Mars mission = studies). =20 Jayme Lynn Blaschke Such dreadful pessimism, and from a science fiction writer no less! Jayme, 50 years ago, concepts for the year 2001 all had us driving around in air cars. Here we are in 2001 -- no jet cars, but we have something better... the internet. Why bother commuting to the office, when you can do something quite similar simply by sitting down at your keyboard, and comunicating with people all over the world? My point: no one foresaw the internet, not even Al Gore. Technology is moving extremely fast (tell me, how many of you remember a C-64 computer? It had just 39.7 kilobytes of useable memory... it was top of the line for home use just 20 years ago). Social change is also moving extremely fast. I suggest to you that 3-5 years of OUR time is equivalent to 10-15 years of time 2 generations back. So... 2030? That's really like saying 2100. I don't think it will take that long to get some sort of manned mission going. Once Mars is landed on, a huge 'barrier' will have been breached. Landing on a non-terrestial world, for any extended time, will be a huge leap. Presumeably, there will be limited infrastructure left on Mars for followup missions. Along the way, various corporations and smaller countries will follow, where the big space agencies have led. Once a manned Mars mission takes place (and remember, it may be possible that the astronauts spend a month or more there, after having spent months already in space!), a mission to Europa or beyond becomes extremely plausible. -- John Harlow Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: Why Go to Space?
[Original Message] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2/28/2001 3:22:37 PM Subject: Why Go to Space? However, I've got to play Devil's Advocate here, since it will come up, sooner or later, in real terms. How can a company, which makes tours to space, put tourists in space for a reasonable cost to the tourist, despite the huge risks involved? Imagine the insurance premiums, the safety concerns, the nightmare if there was a rocket disaster. So, we need another reason than tourism, at least for the initial 70+ people. Up here in Alaska, it was always resources, the chance to 'strike it rich' that drove people to risk their lives and fortunes in terrible hardships. I'd imagine it will be the same for space. But, again, we come to the problem: what's the gain? -- John Harlow Byrne Good points John. I like. But wasn't NASDA or some other Japanese corporation planning on putting a space hotel in orbit by 2010? I think they had most of their rooms booked in advance already too. Whatever happened to that? --- chooser-of-tactics --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -- Charles Darwin == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
