Re: Two new online articles about SETI from ST
In a message dated 4/29/2001 7:02:10 PM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A lot of interesting speculation (and cool movie scripts) coming out of answers to Gail and Roberta's questions. Of course, Carl Sagan and others have covered much the same ground before, and viewers of Star Trek, etc. are also familiar with this topic. Some important additional points are: if there are advanced aliens out there, what is/was their purpose in communicating with other, less advanced ones? Allow me to answer your question with a question. Why do some humans shoot animals with dart guns, fit them with radio collars, and let them loose? Objectively speaking, the answer is to observe their 'natural' behavior. Clearly, behavior so impacted by being darted, collared, and followed around for the rest of your life is not conducive to making the best test subject. Nevertheless, the data gathered is thought to be 'important', to the gatherer. Hypothetically speaking, an advanced alien species is NOT likely to 'wink out' of existence overnight. Personally, I think that doomsayer stuff about '100 years from the discovery of radio technology until a civilization destroys itself' to be a bunch of foolishness. Consider: if a civilization discovers various big technologies, it very likely has had those technologies employed to increase the size of its population, thereby increasing the social pressures, thereby increasing the demand for... social philosophies to emerge. Case in point: Ancient China has likely been 'civilized' for 4000 years. It has had the capacity to build cities, grow giant populations, and so forth... and, because it has had giant civilizations for 1000s of years, it had to figure out ways to get along. Confucian philosophy was their answer. In essence, they came up with a methodology for getting things done, as a group, over the long term, by stifling out individuality. This has a mixed result. It allows relative harmony, by stifling dissent. It also stifles innovation, therefore allowing Chinese civilization to 'plateau'. I suspect that all of Earth may be on the verge of such a necessary discovery of group harmony theory. It's necessary, in a world of nearly 7 billion people. Now, in a world of 7 billion, with shared communications, there will be more capacity, but less innovation, because of the monopolization of creativity by a relatively small clique. This is another way of saying that 1000 tiny nations are individually less capable, but probably have a greater divergence of ideas, than one giant world nation. Ergo, we may be on the verge of figuring out how to get along in a crowded, advanced society, by stifling out our madmen and our geniuses. So, IF there has been another group out there which has discovered similar technologies, it may be entirely possible that it could be around for many, many millenia. I suspect we humans will be around long after the various doomsday theories have long withered away. Now, IF such a millenialist group exists, and they do have the capacity for long-distance communications, and the interest, why would they want to risk doing so? They would likely know that if we discovered we were being tinkered with or watched, we'd react, thereby blowing the experiment. It would be the biggest kick in the pants to human evolution since the discovery of fire. Ergo, a truly wise civilization, and I'm presuming they are wise, to have lasted for millenia, wouldn't risk outright communications... unless they were desperate or crazy. -- John Harlow Byrne We are being very kind to ourselves in giving longevity to our current technology-based culture. Personally, I look around and don't see the long-term odds as too great--hope I'm wrong. JUSTIFY your pessimism. Don't just regurgitate the pablum we're fed by the media. So we've got the bomb. So what? Since the bomb was first used, nearly 60 years ago, the world has been a far more peaceful place than it ever was in the centuries preceding it. So we've got pollution. So what? If it gets all that bad, the weak will die, and the survivors will evolve to tolerate pollution. The civilization, though, survives. So we're overcrowded. We'll invent harmony theory. So we've got crime, madmen, riots. Big deal. Read any ancient Roman historian. Rome had nutcases too, and lasted for 1000 years. Besides, we now know the symptoms, so may be able to treat the disease. And lastly, humans have got this far because a lot of contingencies were fulfilled that may be nearly impossible to reproduce. How long would we have to wait for cows or dolphins to build radios? Don't put your money on cows or dolphins. I'd bet instead on raccoons, or maybe chimpanzees, in another 2-5 million years. See any of Steve Gould's books on this subject--my favorite is "Wonderful Life". Even given the immensity of the universe, the odds of producing and maintaining an advanced civilization are
Is Anybody Out There?
Is Anybody Out There? [30 April 2001] Once it was asked in whispers, or with winks. The timid among us, though undeniably curious, feared raised eyebrows. Jokes about little green men. Who could take such a question seriously, yank it from the misty realms of science fiction and drop it under the searchlight of science? Well, our national space agency, for one. What's more, NASA seems pretty confident these days about the answer: Astrobiology, as defined on an official agency website, is "the study of the living universe." http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=334
Cryobots
Hi, Bruce: Re: your comment, radioisotopes, probably to heat the ice directly? I wonder how the Europan life forms (if any) will feel about that (i.e., what's the environmental impact?) Is that what they are proposing to do at Lake Vostok? (I doubt it.) Wouldn't it be less disruptive to leave the power source on the surface ice? John Sheff At 09:32 PM 4/29/01 -0700, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Reeve, Jack W. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, April 29, 2001 8:50 PM Subject: RE: Two new online articles about SETI from ST Hi Gary, Yeah, I read Wonderful Life. Utterly astounding book; fantastic creatures. I used to live about 120 miles from the Burgess shale outcrop, though I never got up there. It depends on what you mean by nukes -- our plans from the start have been to melt our way gradually down through the ice with a small self-contained vehicle with a heated nose (the Cryobot), which (depending on what you want to do with it) can either just let the ice refreeze again behind it, or (for more advanced expeditions) can leave a reinforced hollow shaft behind. But we haven't ben able to come up with any adequate heat source for that nose other than radioisotopes, probably to heat the ice directly (since this is far more efficient than using a nuclear reactor to power electric heaters). Bruce Moomaw == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
STUDENTS FROM ACROSS NATION TO PRESENT JUPITER RESULTS TO JPL
MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICEJET PROPULSION LABORATORYCALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGYNATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATIONPASADENA, CALIF. 91109 TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011http://www.jpl.nasa.govContacts: JPL/Guy Webster (818) 354-6278 Lewis Center for Educational Research/Craig Campbell (760) 946-5414 x216 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE April 30, 2001STUDENTS FROM ACROSS NATION TO PRESENT JUPITER RESULTS TO JPL A few of the 2,300 students from 13 states who have used a huge remote-control radio telescope to measure energy from Jupiter's radiation belts during the past six months will present their results May 4 to scientists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. The students' measurements span the period when NASA's Cassini spacecraft flew near Jupiter four months ago, so they are useful in the interpretation of radio measurements that Cassini made to map the invisible belts, said Dr. Michael Klein, a JPL radio astronomer and science adviser to the Cassini-Jupiter Microwave Observation Program. Tracy Sibbaluca, a 14-year-old eighth grader from Detroit, looks forward to meeting the scientists, but even more to seeing the big radio-antenna dish in the Mojave Desert that she helped to run from a classroom computer at Detroit's University Public School. "It gave me a lot of confidence because they trust kids like us with such a valuable telescope," said Arkira Jordan, 14, an eighth grader from Opelika, Ala. "I didn't like science so much before, but now I like it better." Those two and 10 other students representing the larger group from 26 middle schools and high schools will tour the Goldstone Complex of JPL's Deep Space Network near Barstow while they are in California this week. The students used a dish antenna at Goldstone that is 34 meters (112 feet) in diameter. That dish, the Goldstone-Apple Valley Radio Telescope, served in Goldstone's main function of communicating with spacecraft for three decades, but was given a new role three years ago for student use coordinated by the Lewis Center for Educational Research, in Apple Valley, Calif. One of Jordan's classmates at Opelika Middle School, 13-year-old Chase Cox, said, "When I think about what we're doing, it's amazing, because we were collecting data that scientists will be using years from now." Opelika science teacher Farrell Seymore said the project has helped his students understand that science is a process of learning, not a set of facts to memorize. "When you are studying something real and it's not simulated, things don't always go the way you expect," he said. "That encourages the kids to use critical thinking skills and try to figure out what the problem is. It's a great experience for them." The Jupiter studies also played into lessons in mathematics, language skills and history, Seymore said. Matthew Dillard, 14, a Detroit eighth-grader, said that the chance to be personally involved in research related to Cassini raised his interest in what the spacecraft discovers in coming years. Cassini will begin orbiting Saturn in 2004. The spacecraft will also release the Huygens probe to drop through the thick atmosphere of Saturn's largest moon, Titan. Cassini flew past Jupiter on Dec. 30, 2000, to gain a gravitational boost toward Saturn, and used that opportunity to take pictures and measurements of Jupiter and its surroundings. Cassini's radar instrument, which shares the main antenna used for communications and is one of 18 science instruments on the orbiter and probe, was used in listen-only mode to measure radio emissions from high-energy electrons in radiation belts out past Jupiter's atmosphere. Those measurements allow mapping of the radiation sources in greater detail than possible from Earth-based observations. The belts are known to vary over time. Using the Goldstone-Apple Valley Radio Telescope, the students monitored the radiation belts from November to March to determine whether the belts were at a normal or unusual state of activity when Cassini mapped them. The results indicate the belts' activity was at a normal level when Cassini passed, but that some changes could be measured shortly afterwards, said JPL physicist Dr. Scott Bolton. "These measurements will be useful to help scientists learn more about Jupiter's radiation belts," he said. The students will present their findings to Dr. Charles Elachi, team leader for the Cassini radar instrument, along with Klein, Bolton, Dr. Steve Levin, Dr. Michael Janssen and other JPL scientists. As of May 1, Elachi also will be JPL's new director. The students' visit is sponsored by the Lewis Center for Educational Research. "These students represent thousands who have collected valuable scientific information while gaining an exciting educational experience," said Jim Roller, the center's vice president for science and technology. Additional information about the Lewis Center and the Goldstone-Apple
RE: Two new online articles about SETI from ST
Hi Bruce, Jack, et al. Yep, I can't think of a more noble use for plutonium (other than generating clean or at least CO2-free power here on Earth) than having it power both the bots and lead the way in an ice melt-through on Europa. The solar flux is way too whimpy there to do the job. There are legitimate concerns about pollution, but bear in mind that water/ice is a great radiation shield (hence, Moon-pools at reactors for temporary storage of high-level waste) and the fact that the surface of Europa is already getting a major radiation dose from Jupiter. A few tens of cm down in the ice should be low-dose, and easier on the equipment. Any lander might want to dig or melt in a few feet, and leave its antenna wagging up to communicate with Earth. Also, although we all want to get down into that ocean, the answer to the life presence-absence question may be frozen within the ice below. There might even be photosynthesis going on at some level in isolated brine pockets or salt crystals with liquid water in the ice. Gary Hiya Bruce, Yeah the radioisotope notion falls under my nuke definition, and is what I had in mind as the only workable solution. Allowing the water to re-freeze behind you is cool. I'd imagine the 'bot would spool out a fiber optics comm cable behind it as it went. Even a hundred miles of fine (2mm) optix cable wouldn't be an overwhelming load @ 0.5 m3 volume, and maybe 700 kg. One would just hope that the sole communiqué from the 'bot, once in free water, wouldn't be a two second close-up of large teeth in huge jaws. Jack W. Reeve Eddress: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Bruce Moomaw [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 12:32 PM To:Icepick Europa Mailing List Subject: Re: Two new online articles about SETI from ST -Original Message- From: Reeve, Jack W. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, April 29, 2001 8:50 PM Subject: RE: Two new online articles about SETI from ST Hi Gary, Yeah, I read Wonderful Life. Utterly astounding book; fantastic creatures. I used to live about 120 miles from the Burgess shale outcrop, though I never got up there. Re your Europa prototypes: have you figured out how to get through the ice without nukes? It depends on what you mean by nukes -- our plans from the start have been to melt our way gradually down through the ice with a small self-contained vehicle with a heated nose (the Cryobot), which (depending on what you want to do with it) can either just let the ice refreeze again behind it, or (for more advanced expeditions) can leave a reinforced hollow shaft behind. But we haven't ben able to come up with any adequate heat source for that nose other than radioisotopes, probably to heat the ice directly (since this is far more efficient than using a nuclear reactor to power electric heaters). Bruce Moomaw == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ =You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Two new online articles about SETI from ST
As they say on the internet, LOL! OK, OK, so every one but me knows what that means! You don't? Well, Laugh out loud. That's a funny one! Seriously (if possible) I have been thinking about this: Astrobiology might be interesting, and for some an absorbing study. It might show us much about how we got here. Discovering amoeba-sized living organisms under the surface of Mars or in the ocean under the ice of our favorite satellite will be exciting, to say the least. But when we have reached all the solid pieces floating around in our tiny system, I suspect that is all we'll find. No little green men, no methane based monsters, in fact, no intelligent life at all--just us. So, far from being depressing, what this says to me is that all of our efforts point to interstellar travel. What we're doing now, and will be doing for several more generations, is learning how to take the next steps. Our current fuels won't get us there, and our primitive communications won't enable us to talk to each other over the distances involved. Incidentally, the report of Voyager communication is an example reminiscent of early day communication before the telegraph. It takes over 21 hours for a one-way message, so any messages there and back take over two days. Need I go further? (No pun!) We think we're 'way behind the curve, but just remember that there are people alive today who saw the first powered heavier than air flight, heard the first radio broadcast, saw the first TV program, and programmed their first VIC-20 computer. They've also seen live pictures from the moon, and now Dennis Tito is the first tourist in the ISS. Ever watch the country group The Statlers? They signed off each show with this, which I think is very appropriate for us: Tune in next week, 'cause we ain't even started yet! Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
