Re: ADMIN: on-topic, and archives
Re: Keeping on topic. We've been down this road before, but trying to keep an inquisitive, energetic group like this confined to one topic is, as someone said years ago ...like eating soup with a fork, a study in futility. The main thing is that there isn't much going on about Europa at the moment, and a controversial item like the algae mats or banyan trees or whatever the phenomenon is on Mars is like cheesecake after a full meal, just too delicious to pass up. My guess is that when something significant turns up about the Europa projects, the discussion will swing back with no hesitation. I'd rather see the discussion continue on something interesting than confine it to a subject with little activity and lose the members altogether. I've suggested that if people are interested they can join the Yahoo! astronautics site, but so far not many takers, probably because it's more trouble than it's worth to switch to another site. Bottom line: Let's not worry so much about the purity of the Europa discussion site and keep up the interest in discussion of whatever is going on in space exploration. Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Mars Algae or whatever
I like "Palladiums" question: How come no more has been made of this in the public media? I'd think such a find, no matter how it's interpreted, would be trumpeted in every media including The Enquirer and all the other tabloids, plus Scientific American, Smithsonian, and other respectable journals. Or did just the two of us (Palladium and I) just miss something? The explanations under the pictures seem credible, but then so does Bruce's. Can't get too excited about Mr. Clarke's "banyan trees", tho, largely because of the lack of shadows. One other question occurs to me: Since the gravity of Mars is much lower than ours, wouldn't massive growths such as trees or even lichens tend to grow taller--and thus cast more shadow? I also like the question about why NASA couldn't (or hasn't) relocated some investigator to at least get better pictures, or better yet, land on in the middle of these artifacts to see what they really are? Somehow I doubt if they are algae, and certainly doubt they are "banyan trees," but then what are they? I don't think the photos are hoaxes, although they could be. Sigourney, where are you when we need you? Watch the skies (and Mars)! Gail Leatherwood
Romance vs. Reality
Larry Klaes makes an excellent point when he suggests that we tend to think of an extraterrestrial mission as a "failure" if it doesn't discover life--intelligent or otherwise. How about this? When Neil Armstrong stepped of the lander on the moon, he stepped where, literally, no one had gone before. At the end of the Apollo program, still only a minuscule number of humans out of all the billions who have existed here on Earth have left footprints (or tire tracks, as the case may be.) No evidence of life existing, or ever having existed in the entire history of the universe on our moon. It seems likely, even with Arthur Clarke's pronouncements about observing what he believes to be evidence of living things on Mars, that when we get there we will find the same lack of anything living, or ever having lived there. When we get to Venus or Europa, we may well encounter the same sterility. The whole history of humanity has been that of going somewhere on this planet and finding other life already there. The Pilgrims didn't "wrest civilization out of the wilderness," and they didn't "settle" anything, because there was already a fine civilization with cleared forests, cultivated fields, and villages of up to 1,000 people. When we explore the jungles of the African and South American continents, we find people already living there. We won't find that on Mars, or under the ice of Europa, so doesn't that give us the ultimate freedom? But with ultimate freedom comes ultimate responsibility, which says that we must learn from our own social experiments. The villages the early European arrivals found were decimated by disease--up to 95% of the population had died because of smallpox, influenza, mumps, etc., so the villages were empty except for the dead bodies lying around because the survivors had not the strength or the will to bury them. When we get to Mars or Europa (and we surely will) we will have the advantage of already being immune to the diseases we carry with us, but we will still need to be sure we don't start anything we can't stop. We need the vision of Clarke, Heinlein, Asimov, et al., to light the way, but we probably also need the practical skepticism of our own Bruce Moomaws to fashion the torches. We need both. Just the idea of being the first human to set foot on any one of our planets sends shivers up my spine, and I hope it does the same for yours. But we need the mechanisms to get there--things like a new propulsion system, infinitely better communications, and most of all the knowledge of how to get even a small number of humans to live together shut up in a tiny space for months or even years without killing each other. Romance and reality--one fuels the other, don't you think? Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood
Re: Failure IS an option
Thanks. Murphy's Law: If it can go wrong, it will--and at the worst possible time! Gail == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Failure IS an option
I read the press release and the article, and I didn't see anywhere that they thought they had actually located the lander. It sounded to me like NASA and NIMS were going to cooperate (what a concept!) to see if they could locate it, but not that they had actually done so. What am I missing? Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Could Icepick do something like this?
I guess I was envisioning a comm system on the surface of Europa, thus giving a much wider range of communication. I wasn't seeing it as a vertical array stretching from the surface downward. The vertical array would, I see now, be wildly impractical, and thus unworkable for Icepick. However, how about the surface communication aspect, Bruce? Gail Leatherwood == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Could Icepick do something like this?
This should generate a lot of discussion! With my untutored eye, I see a robot lander laying out the prescribed array, then going off a ways, laying out a similar array, then initiating a signal between them to generate a data stream to capture information which could then the transmitted back to Earth, or wherever we set up a comm node. If this works the way the inventor says, it could vastly expand the range of exploration. Lots of other questions will be raised, no doubt, but sure looks hopeful to me! Watch the skies--and listen to your icebox! Gail Leatherwood == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: No replacement yet for Dan Goldin
All the more reason to get space exploration out of the hands of government and into the hands of private enterprise. NASA can continue to futz along with maintaining and increasing national security and let the rest of us head for the stars. Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Space Communication
Oops! Thanks to Larry's latest, I realize I referred to "Voyager" instead of Pioneer 10. Was I thinking of "V ger?" Hmmm. Watch the skies (but cut me some slack, OK?) Gail Leatherwood
Re: Two new online articles about SETI from ST
As they say on the internet, LOL! OK, OK, so every one but me knows what that means! You don't? Well, Laugh out loud. That's a funny one! Seriously (if possible) I have been thinking about this: Astrobiology might be interesting, and for some an absorbing study. It might show us much about how we got here. Discovering amoeba-sized living organisms under the surface of Mars or in the ocean under the ice of our favorite satellite will be exciting, to say the least. But when we have reached all the solid pieces floating around in our tiny system, I suspect that is all we'll find. No little green men, no methane based monsters, in fact, no intelligent life at all--just us. So, far from being depressing, what this says to me is that all of our efforts point to interstellar travel. What we're doing now, and will be doing for several more generations, is learning how to take the next steps. Our current fuels won't get us there, and our primitive communications won't enable us to talk to each other over the distances involved. Incidentally, the report of Voyager communication is an example reminiscent of early day communication before the telegraph. It takes over 21 hours for a one-way message, so any messages there and back take over two days. Need I go further? (No pun!) We think we're 'way behind the curve, but just remember that there are people alive today who saw the first powered heavier than air flight, heard the first radio broadcast, saw the first TV program, and programmed their first VIC-20 computer. They've also seen live pictures from the moon, and now Dennis Tito is the first tourist in the ISS. Ever watch the country group The Statlers? They signed off each show with this, which I think is very appropriate for us: Tune in next week, 'cause we ain't even started yet! Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
World Space Week
I joined the National Space Society (NSS) a few weeks ago, and I just got their latest newsletter. One item particulary interested me, and may interest more of the rest of us on this site. It is that NSS is co-sponsoring "World Space Week" in Oct. The plan is to have as many local groups as possible develop and conduct some kind of event in their own community highlighting the continuing efforts to explore space. I know this is a specific discussion site, but I wonder if we could make a contribution to this effort and perhaps gain some recognition for the work this group is doing on getting to Europa and exploring it. I would be willing (BIG RISK!) to at least help with the coordination of whatever our group decides to do, so let me know (a) if you think it's worthwhile, and (b) what you think we could do. I am already researching one idea. The area where I live is one of the largest gold mining areas in the US. We all know that gold is used in many electronic applications on many different space vehicles, plus the use on space suit faceplates. But how many know just how that gold gets from the refinery to the application? Where do the contractors get their gold? Could be in interesting topic. Also, we have been discussing what the water under the Europan ice might contain. Might one of the elements be gold? Some of you can probably answer this one off the top of your head (Bruce?), but I don't know. Anyhow, I have contacted NSS about my idea and have been assured that I will hear from the person coordinating World Space Week very soon. I have also put out a couple feelers to the local gold mines (two of the largest in the US), so I may have something interesting to report in a few days. Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood
Re: NASA Funding
As I have said before, the reason we need to go there is because as humans we need to go there. My mother often said that my father had "itchy feet" and that I always needed to go to the top of whatever high spot there was, whether it was a mountain or just a rock sticking up out of the ground. Why does the bear go over the mountain? To see what is on the other side. Thus it has always been, and thus it will always be. Profit? Nah. Fame? Nah again. Why go to Pluto? Just to go there; as humans we need no other motive. We MUST go to see what is on the other side of the mountain, or to the next planet, or the next solar system, or the next galaxy. Our challenge is to do it, and that takes money and commitment, and agreement on a variety of levels that this is what we want to do. One person can climb a hill and see what is on the other side, but going to the next planet takes more than a solitary effort. Governments need to pool their resources to make it happen, and that can only happen if a large number of citizens agree that the effort is worth the expense. Cost/benefit? More than that, for in most cases the benefit may never even equal the cost in dollars. Oh, my! Now what? Well, for some of us in this group, the challenge is to develop and publicize the mechanics of a workable machine that can drill through the ice mantle of our favorite Jovian satellite. To me, that seems to be the simple part. The hard part is convincing Joe Lunchbucket that his hard earned tax dollars will be well spent in putting together all the pieces that will get that little gadget from here to there. I love what Hibai Unzueta has done in producing real drawings of what might work mechanically. I also love what Bruce Moomaw is doing in keeping track of the many discussions affecting space exploration plus the chemistry/physics of what we might find once we get there. But who is bringing this all together as a package that can be presented to the budgetary decision makers? I think we need a real powerhouse with a broad base to popularize the exploration of space, but unfortunately Robert Heinlein is no longer available, and I don't know if Mr. Clarke is still around to spark another blockbuster movie for the teenagers. Step up, you writers. Come forth, you publicists. If we are to reach the next planet, let alone the stars, we need the visionaries with the talent to capture the imagination of the next generation, nay, the next two or three generations. There's more to be said, but my thoughts so far exceed my poor ability to articulate them, that I must stop for now before I alienate even those who might agree. Think on my words, and see what you produce. Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood - Original Message - From: "Edwin Kite" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 3:06 PM Subject: Re: NASA Funding Frankly, I don't really care about the pluto mission. I'm not sure why everyone else does. Is there something valuable and important to be learned from studying pluto? Not that I can see. Am I missing something here? Yes, it's called exploration. Science is not the reason we send spacecraft to the planets; if it was, why would NASA's budget be as large as the rest of science - excluding medicine - put together? Science is simply something interesting to do when you've got there. We don't go to Jupiter (for example) to clear up niggling mysteries about it's aurora, magnetic field, and interior in order to gratify the few hundred die-hards who can both do the math and find joy in it. We go there out of wonder and awe - and to satisfy the ancient urges to do something about our origin and destiny. The same thing drove the building of the pyramids, and, I suppose, the frantic potlatching of the West Coast indigenous Americans. Pyramids, potlatch, Pluto. The complete survey of the solar system would be a fitting monument to our civilisation - and it's this urge for completion that's driving the desire to get this thing off the pads now, not the admittedly ridiculous smokescreen about By the way, since Bruce Moomaw et al have planned a low-cost probe, why not take this to the logical extreme and build one for $5 mn? How to do this is layed out in detail in Bill Yenne's "Interplanetary Spacecraft" (Brompton, 1988). Edwin Kite == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
NASA Funding
It doesn't really upset me that the Pluto Express might get derailed, and it is good news that some effort will be going in to developing more efficient means of transportation around our little system here. Pluto is a long way off, and I know we must start somewhere inasmuch as the lead time for such things is so incredibly long, but I'd really like to see us get serious about personned trips back to the Moon, and then to Mars. Not a particularly sophisticated commentary, but just wanted to keep the stew stewing. Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood
Ice
Oh, well, Byrne, Blaschke, Co. have convinced me that selling ice to passing starships probably won't work. Rats! I thought I was on to something, but maybe next time. At least I'm keeping some of you entertained! Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood
Separate Lists
Perhaps another alternative (there always are, aren't they?) is to have as many separate lists as there are topics of interest, such as: The Moons of Jupiter; Mars Its Moons; Venus; Effects of Prolonged Weightlessness; Possible Profits (to be made from space exploration); et al. One could then contribute to whichever site that was of particular interest to one at the moment, or just surf and stick things in according to one's expertise and thought. It would be up to each individual to keep track of whatever contributions were most relevant to one's own particular interest. If someone were really interested, he/she could keep a list of those sites which seem to be most productive, but contribution would be entirely voluntary. Would this be time consuming? Probably, unless one had a relatively narrow interest and just looked in on the sites of specific interest. Perhaps then it would not be necessary for any site/list administrator to "police" the site except to let folks new to the list know what the emphasis of the site is. Everyone I've encountered on this list is clearly mature enough to recognize the need for limitations, but this list may be the only one so far with this level of sophistication. One other thing re: length. I know I get carried away with my own rhetoric, and I can see where this could be irksome. I'll try to be more concise, but there are still some issues worth discussing that just aren't all that easy to squeeze into a few succinct sentences. Even philosophizing has its place, since it sometimes triggers some concrete thoughts. A little humor now and then doesn't hurt, either! Watch the skies! G. B. Leatherwood
...a reminder
Jeff, you're right, but my point is that success in reaching Europa, or even getting the funds to study what we now know, is directly affected by the mindset of the politicians who make the funding decisions. As I said, "...the scientific, cultural,social, and economic considerations...are inextricably entwined..." But Bruce is also right. If we want to discuss the broader implications of space exploration, then a new discussion forum might be the proper way to go. I'd be glad to give it a try if I knew how. Any guidance, since you're the expert on this? Thanks. G. B. Leatherwood
Reaching Out, Part Deux
The issue is not whether the ISS is an invaluable tool in the future of humanity, it is. But how do we convince the holders of the budgetary purse strings that it is? The issue is not about the practicality of manned (personned?) vs. un- space flight, but convincing the voters who elect and re-elect those holders that they will personally benefit from it. The issue is not about dangers of radiation and how to protect astronauts, but the danger of losing the perquisites of power. We have, in this discussion group, some of the finest minds extant on this planet. I am truly honored by Hibai Unzueta to be linked with Bruce Moomaw (with whom I may have engaged swords with as a writer of "Letters to the Editor" in the Placerville Mountain Democrat when I lived in Pollock Pines, CA), whose grasp of the science of space exploration is far beyond me. But I fear we are simply "preaching to the choir" when we discuss the science. Yes! We all believe we must go "OUT THERE!" James T. Kirk is alive and well in all of us! I graduated from the University of Kansas, whose motto is "Ad Astra per Aspera," or "To the stars through adversity!" Ourheroes, the ones we look to for inspiration, are Heinlein, Asimov, Anderson, LeGuin, Clarke, Verne, et al.; I can't even name them all. Perhaps it is we who have inherited the mantle of the visionaries we revere. Moomaw said something to the effect that "...whatever we can write about, Poul Anderson probably said it first..." Or Asimov, or Heinlein, or Frank Herbert, or, or, or, and he's right. The question is "How do we pool our collective genius and get it out to Joe Lunchbucket?" For years I have had the notion that if I really wanted to touch the pulse of America, I would find a way to communicate with the guys (yes, still mostly males) who push the garment racks down the streets of the garment district of Manhattan from one dress manufacturer to another. The folks who make buttons, and zippers, and lace trimmings. Who go home to a walkup flat in Brooklyn, have a beer, and for kicks go to a baseball game on Saturday. Who ride the subway hoping they won't get mugged on the way home. Or the farmer whose only crop of the year just got wiped out by a freak hail storm. (It happened to the fruit growers in the Sierra Nevada foothills just a couple years ago--Bruce, you'll remember this.) How do we high mighty scientific types reach them so they will tell their elected representatives "We want the ISS continued, and we want a new shuttle designed, and we want to send people to Mars and beyond!"? How do we answer the inevitable question "What's in it for me?" Help me out here. I understand that Jayme Laschke is a writer, and Moomaw seems to have the ear of at least some of the influential in the scientific/political community. Others have their own specialties which are formidable in their own rights. I believe the scientific, cultural, social, and economic considerations are, as the saying goes, "inextricably entwined." Budgeting is the allocation of scarce human, material, and fiscal resources. There is never enough of any of them to meet all the needs. Peter Drucker observed that needs will absorb all of the resources no matter how vast they are. Therefore, decisions must be made: "Shall we fund Project A or Project B? How about part of A, part of B, with a little left over for C? Let's scrap A (the renewal vehicle for the shuttle) and put the money into tax refunds? Joe Lunchbucket would rather pay less income tax, which would make us look like heroes and get his vote for reelection, so let's go that way. Oh, and if you vote with me on this one, I'll vote for your subsidy of beer barley growers in your district!" No, dammit, this is not fiction, this is reality. I beg of you: Ifwe want the exploration of space to continue, ifwe want to see colonization of anywhere other than here, help address the issues I have touched on here. Let's bring this group of fine minds to a focus. Let's talk of tactics and strategy, and how we reach the decision makers. How can we amass the political power necessary to revive the enthusiasm which put humans on the moon? OK, Bruce, so the ISS is a multibillion dollar boondoggle. Where do we go from here? I'm afraid if we just keep talking about the sulfur content on Europa we'll never get there to find out. I'm afraid that if we only debate among ourselves the risks of contaminating possible molecular life forms on Mars, we might as well just recite "Om Mane Padme Hum" and wait for enlightenment. Got any ideas? Watch the skies! G. B. Leatherwood
Reaching Out
Actually, I'm wrong; the Station has fulfilled one function magnificently -- swindling the taxpayers out of $40 billion -- which, of course, is the only real reason NASA proposed it in the first place (as with the Shuttle). But now it's collided head-on with another grand government swindle -- Bush's tax-cut flim-flam -- so it has to go. Bruce, you've pretty much gutted the whole ISS concept with your above statements... so, you're suggesting that it's just a contemporary version of Skylab and Mir? Once again, it seems the best thing for the long-term development of space is to get it away from NASA and the big boys. What's your take, Bruce? Anyone else? Bruce's comments seem like an uncharacteristically gloomy position for him to take. Yes, the ISS has cost far more than anyone thought it would, but we're in totally new territory here. Sort of like Medi-Cal when it was first proposed in California. It had never been done before and no one had any experience with a program of this size and complexity. Same with the ISS, even tho there was the Skylab and Mir experience to go on. I believe we must continue with the ISS, and it breaks my heart to read that the replacement for the shuttle has been abandoned. True, there's only so much money to go around, and I'll repeat my earlier comments relating to, as Prof. Aaron Wildavsky said, "The Politics of the Budgetary Process." I think the idea of getting this whole area of space exploration/exploitation has to be gotten out of the hands of government is good. Unfortunately, few investors or consortia of investors have the resources to take it on with the current lack of evidence that there will be a profit. Since the US is so powerful, so politically stable compared with the rest of the world, and has so many human, financial, and material resources, there is no competition to engage the passion of the people. There is no "Red Menace" to counter, and no charismatic leader like JFK to challenge us. We have become soft and complacent, and going off to Mars, Venus, or Europa gets only a yawn from Joe Lunchbucket who is more interested in his hourly wage and who is going to be in the Final Four than he is in the mystery of why there is a difference in the quantity of sulphur on the leading and trailing edges of a moon of Jupiter, wherever that is. Besides that, we have so many unsolved problems here that are more pressing in the eyes of the average person. We will run out of oil eventually and we have no real plan for what to do when that happens. We have a "launch on warning" system worldwide that could trigger the nuclear holocaust just because the brain that controls the finger on the launch button doesn't have time to process the data. We have kids shooting other kids to death because they've been harassed for being too fat, wearing glasses, or some other such trivia. Some older folks have to make a choice between prescription drugs and food. With these challenges, mining water on Europa doesn't seem very important. Yes, Larry, this site is for discussion of the scientific considerations of the moon Europa, but we cannotisolate the scientific from the social, political, and economic. Maybe that's what Bruce was commenting on. I hope I havenot offended anyone with the length of this, but I believe it is important as we tremble with one foot tentatively reaching out to unknown space and the other teetering on the shaky precipice of nuclear annihilation just ahead of an empty crust sucked dry of resources. Watch the skies! G. B. Leatherwood
Re: Reaching Out
If by "you two" you are including me, I agree with you wholeheartedly that we Must Have the ISS for the very reasons you state. My point is that it's the politics (and I don't mean political parties, I mean the process by which decisions are made) that drive the whole thing. The politicians will not, repeat WILL NOT back something that won't impress their constituents and assist in their reelection. In politics, that's the profit motive, just as monetary profit rules commerce. What we must do if we want the space program to continue is to generate enough public interest in space to convince the political budget makers that it is a politically attractive direction. As I said, we don't have a JFK to arouse our passions, and we don't have any enemies to challenge us. Hard words and hard concepts, but I think that's where we are. Positive, helpful suggestions welcomed here! G. B. Leatherwood - Original Message - From: "Hibai Unzueta" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 2:16 PM Subject: RE: Reaching Out I have no idea of how you two expect to get any progress on manned space development if its not building an assempling into space a platform the size of ISS. ISS is indeed a valuable laboratory, and I remind you its not only built by NASA. As a collective of member states, those in the ESA have at least something to say. We (europe) were going to build own laboratory centered on Columbus (which is now part of ISS) and serviced by HERMES, a european version of the space shuttle. The Soviet Union planned to do so with MIR2 and Buran and Japan had alos plans for their own manned program. Basically we were talking about 3 stations orbiting the Earth instead of one. Well the biggest cut of mankind's (in general) manned space program was to build them all into one station called ISS (which is not only Freedom+2). And I think this was positive. I know its quite easy for some to diminish all the science done in these platforms but thats not very recommendable. Material sciences, fluids, organic experiments, tens of exposed racks of experiments that industry and education centres would send up there, and whats more important medical experiments about living in space. Well I don't know what way tou see it but THIS is the only way to get enough preparation to get humans out of Earth. And to get humans out there will be necesary not only for exploration. If we start building telescopes or science sensors of any kind in L points, well I guess someone's going to service them... mend them... And second: from the technological point of view (from the point of view of someone studying engineering and for what technological challenge it represents) its worth it. We also need to learn the way of deploying big structures in space (think of intereferometres, bigger telescopes) we need to get introduced in that kind of work. Every penny invested on ISS is providing us with this spacewalkig and assembling and problem solving experience, and making us active on new ideas. and if you think $40 billion is a lot just think of how much does each sidewinder missile costs and multiply it with the number of which those are being built, used and renewed. Not to talk about other examples... -- Hibai Unzueta ETSIIT Upper Telecommunications Engineering School (Bilbao). Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Mensaje original - De: Gail Roberta Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Jack White Enviado: Osteguna, 2001.eko martxoak 15 19h34 Asunto: Reaching Out Actually, I'm wrong; the Station has fulfilled one function magnificently -- swindling the taxpayers out of $40 billion -- which, of course, is the only real reason NASA proposed it in the first place (as with the Shuttle). But now it's collided head-on with another grand government swindle -- Bush's tax-cut flim-flam -- so it has to go. Bruce, you've pretty much gutted the whole ISS concept with your above statements... so, you're suggesting that it's just a contemporary version of Skylab and Mir? Once again, it seems the best thing for the long-term development of space is to get it away from NASA and the big boys. What's your take, Bruce? Anyone else? Bruce's comments seem like an uncharacteristically gloomy position for him to take. Yes, the ISS has cost far more than anyone thought it would, but we're in totally new territory here. Sort of like Medi-Cal when it was first proposed in California. It had never been done before and no one had any experience with a program of this size and complexity. Same with the ISS, even tho there was the Skylab and Mir experience to go on. I believe we must continue with the ISS, and it breaks my heart to read that the replacement for the shuttle has been abandoned. True, there's only so much money to go around, and I'll repeat my earlier comments relating to, as Prof. Aaron Wildavsky said, "The Politics of t
Re: Phobos colonization
One more thought: Once in a great while the SF writers propose that the problem is solved by NOT going back to Earth, or any other gravity, for that matter. In short, just stay in the weightless environment. In about ten seconds, one can think of a whole host of consequences, not all of them "bad." Think of the image of the "Star Child" at the conclusion of "2001--A Space Odessy." In such a situation, is the retention of muscle mass really necessary? G. B. Leatherwood - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:40 PM Subject: Re: Phobos colonization In a message dated 3/12/2001 5:25:56 PM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have some short questions... First, does anybody know if there's a listserv similar to this one, having to do with colonizing, or at least sending probes to, Phobos? And relatedly -- what are considered the most serious MEDICAL, BIOLOGICAL obstacles to human colonization of space? Things like the body adjusting to low gravity, radiation, etc... Any info??? Help! --Ed S. Ed, I'm not a scientist per se, but I might be able to offer some concepts to consider. One of the best 'fiction' references I ever read was 'Red Mars' by Kim Stanley Robinson, which deals at some length with the psychological and health impacts of long term space travel. I also know that the most knowledgeable people about this particular subject are the Russians, who have dealt at some length with long-term space sojourns... they've had several cosmonauts go through months long periods in space. As I recall, there was one fellow who spent something like 14 continuous months in orbit. The Russians developed a special kind of 'tension' suit, which is difficult to move in, in order to force muscles to stay strong -- otherwise, in the absence of gravity, muscles and bones deteriorate. To my understanding, there are considerable effects of weightlessness and lack of a 'down' in space. Mature humans, for instance, lose significant muscle and bone mass, to such an extent that some have a real hardship on returning to Earth. They also lose heart muscle, and blood pressure changes as various valves weaken. There are psychological impacts as well. Boredom caused certain problems and accidents aboard the Russian vessels, as people lost attentiveness. Prolonged isolation makes people edgy. And, I'd imagine there would be considerable stress associated with simply knowing that just 2' away, through a thin shuttle wall or bulkhead, is a hard vaccuum, absolute death, where you would simultaneously flashfreeze, suffocate, irradiate, boil, and depressurize. The impacts of weightlessness on fetal growth or immature bodies is uncertain, although I know that NASA did some experiments with frog embryoes. I don't remember the effects, although the NASA website might have some answers. As for radiation: I don't know that a biological organism such as we are can really 'adapt' to radiation, although I've heard of certain radiation resistant bacteria. Radiation causes 'fractures' in DNA and RNA patterns, so cellular function ceases or at best, mutates. Radiation accumulates; as I recall, a lifetime exposure of about 150 Rads is the cutoff point for cancer concern. I don't know how long it would take to pick up 150 Rads from solar radiation, but a couple of spacewalks is about the safety limit for humans. My advice? Look up the NASA website, and articles on nuclear war contamination -- they're out there. Also, talk to Jeremy Blaeschke and Bruce Moomaw -- those two ought to be able to come up with some definitive answers. -- JH Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: About EUROPA PROBE GRAPHIC
I think this project is great! Makes me think of the incredible stuff that comes out of high school and college science and engineering competitions. It's all well and good to have major designs done by the PhDs of the world, but some of the ideas already emerging from this group (including our own PhDs, of course!) are beginning to crystallize into real workable plans. Now if we can just get the decision makers to pay attention. Just to throw in another thought along this line. I have argued extensively (and eloquently, I hope) about the need to pursue these explorations for the pure scientific knowledge purpose, and have (reluctantly) agreed that at some point there needs to be a payoff. The question is: If we're thinking about mining the asteroids for nickel, iron, etc., or the other planets for whatever it is they are composed of, what will be necessary to make such efforts profitable? We've seen sci-fi movies like the "Alien" series that start out on some place being mined by huge machines, but what will be so valuable that the investment, not to mention the transport, will be worth it? If we use up all our nonrenewable resources on Earth such as oil, iron, coal, etc., are we supposed to just keep on going further and further out and depleting whatever we find out there, too? Not a particulary happy prospect. If the resources are finite here, won't they also be finite "out there?" We're supposed to be asking questions, right? Watch the skies! G. B. Leatherwood - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 6:14 PM Subject: Re: About "EUROPA PROBE GRAPHIC" Okay, Hibai, I can use all the help I can get. This is a group project, so we all take part in it, but we do need someone to help cut through the various discussions and come up with a solid determination. -- JHB In a message dated 3/6/2001 12:18:55 PM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree there could be some graphic work done on all this. If publicity is what you want, we all know things get into us through the eyes much easier. But, think of it. When working out some sketches of the "ICEpick probe" you can't be very say specific. I think that right now, it would be very hard to agree on a design, besides we are not Von Braun and his team. If you want to get some sketches, you may well need to do what special effect designers do: get some of cassini, get some of galileo, some of pahfinder, some good imagination and mix it all up. I mean, we agree on some things but we can not be very concrete in these things... we're just discussing ideas. I don't think we can go much further. This is something you need to know before getting your hands to the pencil: - A list with the components of the probe. (like: high gain antenna, radar, gyroscopes.) - And then what each of them looks like. (can be looked up anywhere) this is what anyone who makes sketches NEEDs to work out something good. He/she then works out the overall aspect of the whole thing. I like to do this stuff, so if anyone has that ~list I will be happy to try. -- Hibai Unzueta [EMAIL PROTECTED] == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Australia, Canada, et al.
Even better, imagine the kick in the pants NASA would get, if a team from tiny Australia were to be the first to land on an asteroid, or a team from Canada figured out a better way to launch a space probe... it might be just the jumpstart that the space program needs. Not a bad approach. Remember is was our "space race" with the Russians that led us to the moon. G. B. Leatherwood
Re: SF notes
This is why I'm beginning to love this site! I think of myself as a SF writer, even tho I haven't had anything published yet, and the ideas presented in just the past day or so challenge me no end. In most ways, SF is no different from any other form of writing: One must have a good story to tell, and one must tell it in an interesting, preferably exciting way. That means not only imagination, but writing skill as well. That's why the "space operas" do so well--fascinating stories, long on drama but often short on science. So what? The readers/viewers don't really care much whether Europa is really an ice capped slush ball as they do about the trials and tribulations, the failures and successes of the folks who might go there to do whatever it is they're there to do. Of course, a SF writer who uses real, accurate, solid science in the story is way ahead, but only if he/she can put it in language the average reader can handle. For example, on this site I am generally in awe of the real scientists who contribute, but unfortunately I really understand the significance of only a fraction of what I read. I barely made it through high school chemistry and physics, and math beyond the basics is still beyond me. So as a hopeful writer, what am I to make of the descriptions of the chemical reactions likely to be encountered in the under ice oceans of Europa? How can I use that in a story I can sell to the average reader? Answer: I can't. But I can raise the questions, the possibilities, the speculations. All of SF is about "What If...?" and there is no limit. Personally, I shy away from "sword and sorcery," but just about anything else is fair game. How long have I been at it? Well, let me put it this way: As a kid, I used to ride my bike past Robert Heinlein's house. You take if from there. Thanks for the patience of all the readers of this discussion, and I hope you will stick with me. G. B. Leatherwood - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 6:32 PM Subject: Re: SF notes In a message dated 2/28/2001 7:25:37 AM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ha! Such optomism here. We'll be lucky to get a *robot* probe launched to = Europa by 2010, much less a manned mission. Such a story would have to be = based on an alternate history, perhaps one in which Apollo had continued = unfettered and established a moon base by 1980, and missions to Mars by = 1990. As it stands now, I'll be mightily surprised if we reach Mars by = 2030 (and that's not taking into account the recent hiatus of Mars mission = studies). =20 Jayme Lynn Blaschke Such dreadful pessimism, and from a science fiction writer no less! Jayme, 50 years ago, concepts for the year 2001 all had us driving around in air cars. Here we are in 2001 -- no jet cars, but we have something better... the internet. Why bother commuting to the office, when you can do something quite similar simply by sitting down at your keyboard, and comunicating with people all over the world? My point: no one foresaw the internet, not even Al Gore. Technology is moving extremely fast (tell me, how many of you remember a C-64 computer? It had just 39.7 kilobytes of useable memory... it was top of the line for home use just 20 years ago). Social change is also moving extremely fast. I suggest to you that 3-5 years of OUR time is equivalent to 10-15 years of time 2 generations back. So... 2030? That's really like saying 2100. I don't think it will take that long to get some sort of manned mission going. Once Mars is landed on, a huge 'barrier' will have been breached. Landing on a non-terrestial world, for any extended time, will be a huge leap. Presumeably, there will be limited infrastructure left on Mars for followup missions. Along the way, various corporations and smaller countries will follow, where the big space agencies have led. Once a manned Mars mission takes place (and remember, it may be possible that the astronauts spend a month or more there, after having spent months already in space!), a mission to Europa or beyond becomes extremely plausible. -- John Harlow Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Europa submersible hypothetical
I suppose I, like many others, have been infected with the idea that the various bodies of the solar system are all potential resource mines, promising huge fortunes in whatever it is that would compel people to go there. If the conditions are just too cost extravagant, however, then are we humans destined to spend eternity on our little terrestial abode? This is an infection of epidemic proportions that has inhabited sf writers for as long as I can remember, and that's a long time! It's kind of like the "bottom of the well" gimmick: The hero is stuck at the bottom of a deep well seemingly with no way out. The next chapter begins with "...when he got out of the well..." SF writers do it this way: We skip over the ruminations of the Bruce Moomaws of the world, and, with a shrug of our shoulders, assume that mankind has developed a fantastically powerful and incredibly cheap propulsion system with the structural strength to handle it. Problem solved! Warp drive? No problemo! So with this propulsion system and strong vehicle, we can just load it up with whatever valuable material we find and ship it off to the highest bidder. So here it is: The material? Water. The location? Europa. The customer? A species from a planet in dire need of water. The propulsion system? Why, the usual, of course. Watch the skies! :-) - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 4:17 PM Subject: Re: Europa submersible hypothetical In a message dated 2/27/2001 8:22:07 AM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for burning sulfur for fuel: keep in mind that you have to burn it WITH something, and Europa is singularly short on free oxygen (although it does have a little, thanks to the breakdown of water ice by Jupiter's radiation). I don't know what happens when you react sulfur with hydrogen peroxide (which Europa does have in considerable amounts). Hmm... it appears that the only reason, from Bruce's response, to go to the Jovian moons is to satisfy a scientific reason, and that may not be compelling enough to justify the costs. Is Jovian gravity so strong that it would significantly impact operations on Europa or Io? Couldn't Jovian radiation be avoided by sending in remote probes and machines, operated from a more distant orbit? I suppose I, like many others, have been infected with the idea that the various bodies of the solar system are all potential resource mines, promising huge fortunes in whatever it is that would compel people to go there. If the conditions are just too cost extravagant, however, then are we humans destined to spend eternity on our little terrestial abode? On a lighter note: considering Europa's surfeit of water, sulfa, and hydrogen peroxide, if a speculative astronaut ever got a cut on his little star-faring finger, he would have plenty of local antiseptic. -- John Harlow Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Moral Issues
What was it Scrooge said? "Are there no jails? Are there no counting houses? Bah! Let them starve. Decrease the surplus population, eh?" Or words to that effect. Yes, I would imagine some would object to that approach. (TIC) :-) - Original Message - From: Robert Crawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:00 AM Subject: Re: Moral Issues [Original Message] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2/25/2001 9:01:10 PM Subject: Re: Moral Issues Here's the big, ugly secret of Lebensraum: the Germans were right. Bigger, stronger, and hungrier has always justified expansion. That's called evolution. In contemporary terms, we call it capitalism. Just because we're bombing foreign cultures with McDonalds, not bombs, doesn't mean that it's not really still Lebensraum. Don't expect humans to change their culture overnight, just because they're threatened with a decline in the Earth's environment, the loss of various species, etc. You have got to make it personal: until each one of us is literally choking in our own filth, it will always just be easier to pass the buck, expand somewhere else, move to greener pastures, etc. Bruce Moomaw would suggest that our global society may be at the boiling point now, that we are at constant and increasing danger of mass population die-offs, via war, plague, or what-have-you. However, perhaps this is a sort of unconscious species survival mechanism? That is, in the absence of sufficient lebensraum, we've got to reduce our impact, or our numbers... these are not issues for timid minds to contemplate. -- JHB I would happily reduce our numbers, but millions of people would have some moral issues about it. --- chooser-of-tactics --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -- Charles Darwin == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Why go there?
Nope, never too late! If that were the case I'd have been thrown out already. What a fun idea! Couple that with the web cam idea, and people, not just kids, could send back live pics of themselves flying around. Sort of a Disneyland on the Moon? I'd bet there would be enough folks with sufficient disposable income to do it, too. :-) - Original Message - From: Pam Eastlick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 2:26 PM Subject: RE: Why go there? Greetings All I realize that I'm very late to the discussion, but if you're looking for a reason to return to the moon and get people jazzed up about space exploration in general (including going to Europa) it's quite simple. If you take a large cavity on the moon (lava tube or excavation) seal it up and fill it with earth normal air pressure; you (yes *you*) can strap on a pair of wings and fly. All right, boys and girls, how many of you would like to go to the moon and FLY??? No nasty spacesickness because there *is* a down for your cochlea and no worries about radiation or meteors because you're underground. Then . . . maybe we can finally get to Europa and *swim* in something less than a geologic time frame! Pam === | Pam Eastlick | Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Planetarium Coordinator | Voice: (671) 735-2783 | | CCEOP | Fax : (671) 734-1233 or -4582 | | UOG Station | Location : 13.25N, 144.47E | | Mangilao, Guam USA 96923 | Time : GMT+10EST+15 | | | | The Planetarium Web page is | | www.guam.net/planet| | | |LOOK UP TONIGHT, THE UNIVERSE AWAITS YOU!| === == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: OK, OK, OK, Enough!
Naturally I can't give away too much in the hopes that my first story will be published, but try this: Suppose there was another planet in another star system that needed...water. (Frank Herbert's Dune?) Europa has water under its ice mantle. Wouldn't "mining," refining, storing, and transporting water present some interesting challenges? What would be the possibilities of the typical human motivation for commerce and profit? What if the inhabitants of this other system also had a mercenary streak? And what about the human elements? Living on Europa's ice mantle? What would that be like? How would they measure time? How would the human circadian rhythms be affected by a different planetary cycle? What is the gravity on Europa? Europa always has the same face turned toward Jupiter, just like Earth's moon. What's on the other side? The Galileo pics are helpful, but don't tell the whole story, methinks. OK, that's for starters. Am I dreaming, or what? :-) - Original Message - From: Larry Klaes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 10:39 AM Subject: Re: OK, OK, OK, Enough! I'm curious - what is being mined on Europa in your SF story? Larry At 10:16 AM 02/20/2001 -0800, Gail Roberta wrote: Well, I guess that's the price of getting to the show after the curtain goes up. Sorry if I sounded like such a dunce, but I really did just get caught up in what's really being done. I am trying to start a sci fi story series based on the moons of Jupiter, and the idea of mining Europa for whatever is there intrigued me. To gain some semblance of credibility, I started searching the web for info, and found this site, plus the NASA site and several others. Got lots of interesting info, and hope to get more. These discussions show me how much I have to learn--as someone said long ago: "The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know." Please be patient with my ignorance--that can be cured! :-) - Original Message - From: Bruce Moomaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Icepick Europa Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 11:58 PM Subject: Re: OK, OK, OK, Enough! -Original Message- From: Gail Roberta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, February 19, 2001 8:49 PM Subject: OK, OK, OK, Enough! Haven't we milked this one dry already? What does all this have to do with the possible exploration of one of Jupiter's moons anyhow? So Fox came up with a stupid, but apparently entertaining show that no one in their right minds would believe? Isn't sci-fi by it's very nature the same thing? OK, forget I said that. I love sci-fi, I love to watch reruns of Star Trek in all its permutations, even Babylon 5 is entertaining. But science? Naw, and I don't even pretend it is. So let's get back to discussing Europa. When we land there, will we need flotation devices to float on the possibly slushy ice? If we land on an ice island and want to drill through, will the island drift so much that we'll lose our probes? Is there an atmosphere? How hot is the core? Lots more interesting stuff to speculate about than some crap served up on TV, don't you think? The trouble is that this group has already long since chewed all that over extremely thoroughly, throughout 1999 and 2000 (apparently before you got here) -- and we're simply running out of specifically Europa-related stuff to discuss. (Hopefully there will soon be some more of it, as I recently noted.) That's precisely why many of us have moved over to Jason Perry's "ISSDG" and "Jupiter List" chat groups, which deal with Solar System exploration in general. Regarding your questions: Europa's crust is solid ice and anywhere from several to several dozen km thick -- so we certainly don't need to worry about floating on the surface or drifting on ice floes. It has an extremely faint trace of atmosphere -- only a few hundred-millionths as dense as Earth's -- and we have a good idea of most of the gases making it up. The core may or may not be hot enough to provide any volcanic vents at all on the floor of the subsurface ocean, but most of that floor is certainly near 0 deg C, just like most of Earth's ocean floor. (Europa's tidal heating from Jupiter is only about 1/10 of Io's.) This still leaves a tremendous number of interesting questions about the place, of course -- with one of the most lively recent subjects being an increased feeling among scientists that Jupiter's radiation may produce a disproportionate concentration of nutrients and other biologically useful chemicals in the TOP few meters of Europa's ice, and that these may both be slowly transported down into the underground ocean, or nourish microbes in local pockets of near-surface water within the ice. (This, in turn, would mea
Re: Astronomers mock Fox show about Moon fakery
OK, so you are a responsible member of the "media." Where is your professional reply to the Fox travesty? Where are the cries of outrage from other "responsible members of the media?" Where is the official rebuttal from the other news organizations, and why can't such a rebuttal get as much attention as the original bogus "documentary?" How about a show from ABC, CBS, or NBC exposing the fraud perpetrated by Fox in airing such a program? There have been many extensive replies on this web site, but I don't see them anywhere but here, which is a lot like the old church saying about "preaching to the choir." I'm not challenging your honesty or integrity, Mr Taylor, and you are quite right in challenging those who use the same brush to tar everyone in your business. What I am saying is "OK, Mr. Taylor, what are YOU and YOUR COMPATRIOTS doing to show up this particular program for the "entertainment" it was?" :-? - Original Message - From: TAYLOR, MICHAEL [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 9:04 AM Subject: RE: Astronomers mock Fox show about Moon fakery Re the comment by JHB: It just goes to show that the media is worthless for real reporting. When entertainment outweighs truth, the sheeple laugh in ignorance. When an irresponsible member of ANY group does something publically outrageous, the whole group suffers. But like Bruce Moomaw and a few others who contribute to this list, (as well as the people who give you SCIENCE, NATURE, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, DISCOVERY, SCIENCE NEWS etc., etc.) I am an active member of "the media." It bugs me when the general populace acts as if "the media" were some monolithic organization, spouting nonsense as part of its evil plan to get rich, mislead the population, whatever. To rant about "the media" is as misguided and wrong as ranting about "people over 30," "jews," or "the French." I have no problem with someone ranting about Rupert Murdoch and Fox, but please don't tar the rest of us with the same brush. Mike Taylor == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Virus alert!
There was a whole big thing about this virus a few days ago. The bottom line is DON'T OPEN IT! Some of the virus detections missed it, and it caused overloading of some systems in the US Europe, but Japan got enough advance warning to avoid problems there. It just jams us the e-mail systems, but apparently does no permanant damage to systems. - Original Message - From: Deanna [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 12:40 PM Subject: Re: Virus alert! Wow. I got it, too. Norton didn't pick it up, but I was wary enough not to open it. I just got my first through-the-mail virus -- in a mesage supposedly containing a joke (written in very bad English) about Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. I imagine that somebody else with an E-mail connection to me was unlucky enough to be zapped by the thing, and that it then spread itself automatically through his E-mail outlet. Fortunately, my trusty McAfee shield intercepted the virus -- but if you get such a message, for God's sake don't open it. Bruce Moomaw == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: ADMIN Re: Virus alert!
Good point! Glad you made it; you're absolutely right on! There's enough stuff on Europa to keep us occupied, and there are enough other channels of communication to use for other things. Thanks for reminding us. :-) - Original Message - From: Jeff Foust [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:05 PM Subject: ADMIN Re: Virus alert! Hello, This list is intended for discussions of topics related to Europa and the exploration of it. While messages like virus warning are well intentioned, they are off-topic for the list. Please don't respond to or post other messages on this topic; instead, please use the wide variety of online resources regarding computer viruses and prevention tips. Sincerely, Jeff Foust list administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS: the virus mentioned in the original message has been send to the list on more than one occasion, but each time has been stopped by filters within the mailing list server software, so you should not have to worry about receiving viruses through this list. == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
