EV Digest 6950
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Make it
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Data Logging for Zilla
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: regarding the Solectria Sunrise
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: firefly batteries?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Controler
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Make it
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Make it
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Make it
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: Data Logging for Zilla
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: firefly batteries?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) RE: FW: Regen with Sevcon and Etek
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Make it
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EVgrin - RAVolt takes first EV trip
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: VOLTS vs AMPS & RE: Make It
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Well this isn't the first time controller design has come up.
The microcontroller, or any method of generating PWM, is only one aspect
of design and frankly it's small beans compared to the other parts of
the design. We had a thread going for awhile where some of us were
talking about the merits of a microcontroller and others die-hard
against anything but a discrete component design. I had to point out
periodically that the original poster on the subject seemed to have the
missed the point that the greatest, most well-featured PWM generator
ever only scratches the surface of controller design so all the debate
was beside the point.
The thermal issues, power stage, PCB design, and especially the gate
driver are quite tough. Even case design and connecting a huge cable to
a thin PCB are tricky. OK, not rocket science, many designers around
who can make a complete design, simulate the transistor on computer and
all. I don't want to dismiss it as an impossible task. An experienced
designer still won't be able to make a cheap 1 amp ripple cap handle 10
amps and won't be able to get the 120A out of the "120A" transistor with
the 76A leads. But they can tell you what will work, and that will
likely require much more expensive components that you have laid out.
Danny
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
Granted I'm coming from the outside and many aspects are unknown to me
but I'm no dummy and I still believe it can be done and you are just
naysaying because the vision is not clear to you.
It's true I was disappointed to hear of the need for high derating but
I did already know about it in the small packages and I'm not sure I
got a satisfactory answer from Lee whether derating was just as bad in
the large IGBT modules like int-A and above. more importantly though
the price did not triple as you suggest since Oatmeal has said that
the IGBTs he uses for a zilla1k cost him 165$. so you're wrong.
Similarly JB Straubel's ad hoc controller seemed very simple. the kind
of simple I'm aiming for although I wouldn't be using 6 500A modules!
A smart man could easily convey the needed knowledge to someone like
me. Genius makes the complex simple.
The reason I'm not so concerned with the microcontroller code is that
I've already done some experimentation with an AVR. I am a computer
scientist.
It's a common fallacy to blindly trust those that went before.I've
heard that the reality of flight was denied even years after the
wright brothers flew. that despite public demonstrations the press
wouldn't cover it because it was known to be impossible. don't be that
monkey
Dan
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Dan,
You're not asking for a meatloaf recipe. To be frank, you're
naivete in the area of power electronics (1) leads you to believe
that controllers should be much cheaper than they really are.
I'm personally developing a MOSFET based controller for my own use,
but I am documenting my progress (nuancesystems.net). Right now,
there isn't much there, but when I have a barely-working prototype
up, I'll post more information than you can shake a stick at.
Having said that, I've done many _MANY_ hours of research, and put
many hours into my shop (garage) measuring, cutting, drilling,
mounting, testing, etc. I've also put a lot of $$$ into it, and I'm
realizing that while a lot of that money is a good investment (tools,
etc), there are a lot of failed experiments that lead ... nowhere.
And that's just for the mechanical layout.
The task you're speaking of is not a 60 minute job. You _will_not_
find a "simple and practical" design for a 320KW controller.
With regard to "help out a little bit," it's a bit like asking a
doctor how to cure a rash, and getting upset that he doesn't teach
you everything he learned in medical school. Even if he were willing
to do so, it would take too much time, and there's no chance you'll
be a doctor when he's done.
(1) You seemed surprised to learn that the transistor current rating
is often derated to 40% or less. Guess what? Your transistor budget
nearly tripled just now. Don't forget diodes, capacitors, bus bars,
good control and protection electronics, heat sinks, etc. A
controller is so much more than the cost of the transistors alone.
Heck, I'd personally rather get a good look at Otmars microcontroller
code -- it's at _least_ as important as the devices used or their
layout. It's a little strange you haven't asked about it, unless you
don't really know it's value. Which is exactly my point.
Complex problems often need complex solutions, despite belief to the
contrary.
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
I feel the same way. a cheaper controller certainly can be done. a
lot cheaper
a sub 500$ zilla1k equivalent if someone foxconn'ed it (mainstream
mass production, not typical b2b pricing mentality)
unfortunately those with experience don't want to take the 60
minutes it takes for them to design a simple practical circuit to
this effect so others have to do the much greater task of getting
training and experience first and then doing it
some few will help out a little bit if asked about something
isolated but most here will rather fight it
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Is there a data logging program for a laptop PC that can put the Zilla
> in data streaming mode and log the data?
As Mike says, Hyperterminal works fine -- just run through the menu to enter
DAQ mode ('p' then 'Q' then the mode you want like '4', iirc) and use Capture
Text.
For analysis, check out FasTrack from the Sun Coast EV guys:
http://www.suncoast.net/fastrack.htm
Some time ago, I wrote an OpenGL program for Windows that logs the data and
spits out basic gauges while running (very very basic, and I've never gotten
around to packaging it for wider use) that I can compile up for you. Contact me
off list if interested.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Please show me comparison graphs with an electric motor and an ICE
> motor
> demonstrating this at a torque value of over 100 lb-ft over a 7000 rpm
> range.
I should have specified peak torque versus sustained, but it doesn't really
matter. My point was that even robust motors like the ones graphed on the
linked spreadsheet have sweet spot (shaft speed) beyond which torque falls
off and drawing additional current to sustain torque exceeds safe continuous
duty parameters. With I.C. engines, variable timing now allows for very flat
torque curves throughout most of the usable rev range (1500-6500rpm), and of
course they use gears or CVTs to keep them in that range. Agreed?
Plenty of electric motors can do that, umm the Solectria and Seimens
motors come to mind.
Indeed, have a look at this spreadsheet. It plots torque curves for
various Seimens motors with various battery voltages.
http://www.metricmind.com/data/performance.zip
Note, this doesn't work with openoffice, but did when I tried the real
Excel.
Thank you for sharing this. Too few manufacturers offer line graphs. Very
useful.
Lon Hull,
Portland, OR
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, you're out of the EV car business...darn it.
Interestingly, though, I visited Azure Dynamics' site yesterday and never
knew about the Solectria connection!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:52 AM
Subject: RE: regarding the Solectria Sunrise
Solectria is not out of business -- we merged with Azure Dynamics in
2005.
We are still at the same building where Solectria moved in 2001, outside
of Boston, Massachusetts.
Beth Silverman
***********************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They are designers. From 3 to 30 people in 3 years per
a Peoria Newspaper article linked to their website.
The are designing the batteries for Husqvarna
gardening equipment such as weed eaters, lawnmowers.
They are not building product. They are R & D and then
selling the design to the individual manufactures to
build their own batteries. In May 2007 they signed a
manufacturing agreement with Crown Battery In April
thay signed an agreement with North Star Battery.
Read the press releases and news articles.
www.fireflyenergy.com
With the release to Crown there maybe hope for use
EV'er to see these batteries in the next year or 2.
The Weight savings is in the lack of main plates.
Instead of plates with lead paste spread across them
they use a Carbon Fiber screen. So image a Trojan 125
weighing only 16.5 lbs instead of 66 lbs. On a 72 Volt
pack we are talking 200 lbs verse 800 lbs. Or imagine
Johns White Zombie from his roughly 500 lbs reduced
to 125 lbs. John that is only a guest on weight of
your present pack weight no insult intended. But
essentially if batteries where a 1/4 of the weight
where will EV be tomorrow. This is what makes Lithium
batteries so attractive. IF Carbon Fiber plates can do
the same for Lead then So be it. And hopefully at a
similar price to lead batteries now. I know I'm
dreaming here.
--- "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think they saidth that they already do have a
> battery; they say it's
> going to be used in real life for some company or
> something.
>
> On 6/25/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hello Lawrence
> >
> > One other difference then regular lead batteries.
> If I remember right they
> > were to weigh like 1/4 the weight of lead acid
> batteries.
> >
> > I read about these at least 2 or 3 years ago. They
> even had the city they
> > were in investing money into the new company. You
> would think they would have a
> > battery out by now?
> >
> > Don Blazer
> >
> > In a message dated 6/25/2007 2:11:18 PM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > If what they say is true there won't be any
> difference between them and
> > regular lead batteries except capacity,
> durability & reliability. I suspect
> > they won't even need regulators. Lawrence
> Rhodes....
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 8:22 PM
> > Subject: firefly batteries?
> >
> >
> > > Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on these?
> I sort of have an in
> > > with the company to test some in my EV
> (probably about 5 or 10%
> > > probability, but that's better than no
> contacts)... but as of yet all
> > > I've seen is hype, not specs. BMS required?
> Discharge rate? cycles?
> > > Thermal management? Not even sure if they
> really exist yet.... I
> > > supposed I could ask my contact there, but I
> figured someone on this
> > > list might have already researched them more
> than I have.
> > >
> > > Z
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ************************************** See what's
> free at http://www.aol.com.
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is actually a good question.
I'm going to try to simplify the answer a bit.
Let's consider a PMDC motor, it has magnets for the field and a wound
rotor with brushes & comutators to bring the electricity to the rotating
coils. Lots of coils and lots of commutator segments. The current in
different coils will be at different states at different points in the
rotation. The current will go from flowing in one direction to flowing in
the other and at some point in the rotation the current will be at zero,
this is where we have the brushes set so that the segment is at zero
current when leaving the brush.
It's important to understand that motors and generators are exactly the
same thing. If you pass a coil through a magnetic field, it generates an
electrical current. If we pass electricity through a coil while it's
sitting in a magnetic field, it generates movement.
Here is the key, when we pass current through the coil of a motor and it
starts to move, it acts just like a generator at the same time. The coil
is moving through a magnetic field so it is ALSO generating electricity.
Because of the nature of magnetic fields, etc. this generated electrical
current is OPPOSITE to the applied current. It basically tries to fight
the applied current, this is called "Back Electro Motive Force (BEMF)" and
it's what keeps motors from drawing huge currents all of the time.
Anyway, the way motors are designed the several segments are usually under
the brushes at the same time. The motor is setup so that the BEMF on
segment that is just leaving the brush is almost the same as the applied
voltage, effectively at that point in the rotation the coil connected to
that segment is not drawing any current. The coil with it's segment near
the middle of the brush is, however, drawing current, and this keeps the
motor turning.
So basically the design of the motor has it so that the segment leaving
the brush has already turned off it's current due to the ballanced BEMF
and applied voltage.
No current, no arc.
Of course the exact point where this happens changes depending on the
applied current and speed of rotation. The choosen spot is usually not
perfect so under some circumstances you will end up with a little brush
arcing. Increasing the current, or the voltage, can make this arcing
worse and many people have melted/burned their brushes. Especially the
drag racers since they are always pushing their motors past the limits.
THis is why they talk about advancing brushes for drag racing etc,
advancing the brushes makes them arc less under high currents, but
somewhat more at low currents, howeve at low currents you see less damage
and drag racers mostly use high current anyway.
> Ok .. I got a stupid question.. I got the welder point a few times now and
> have been thinking about it .. Why don't out eclectic motors brushes weld
> and melt when we run our E Vs??/
>
> And what ever the reason is that they don't.. Why can not that be the same
> kind of contact for a switch?
> Mitchell
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Andre' Blanchard
> Date: 06/25/07 19:43:30
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Controler
>
> At 05:17 PM 6/25/2007, you wrote:
>>If you want to build a mechanically driven drum switch circuits for motor
>>controller, it is best to get a early addition copy of The Standard
> Handbook
>>for Electrical Engineers from the year 1933 or so.
>>
>>You will not be able to down load this handbook, but you may luck out and
>>get a copy from the public library. The new later handbooks will set you
>>back more than a cost of a controller and they are not that detail.
>>
>>It has complete design section on any type of controller you want to
>> build.
>
>>There even sections on how to different type of batteries are made, how
>>motors are made and different winding configurations.
>>
>>With this handbook, all you need is a shop with machine tools, the raw
>>material, and it will show you how in detail to design and build any
>>electronic and electrical systems.
>>
>>Roland
>
> I did not find the entire books but I did find part of it.
>
> Section 13 from the Standard Handbook for Electrical Engineers 1908
> http://books.google.com/books?id=tkAFAAAAMAAJ
>
> Some other books
> http://books.google.com/books?id=SsIJAAAAIAAJ
> http://books.google.com/books?id=UOjpsFsWSrAC
> http://books.google.com/books?id=iDASAAAAIAAJ
> http://books.google.com/books?id=cgsAAAAAMAAJ
> http://books.google.com/books?id=UP8HAAAAMAAJ
> http://books.google.com/books?id=P_m7webHng8C
> http://books.google.com/books?id=5WGfE9UR_AEC
> http://books.google.com/books?id=ZlCLIxkECvwC
>
> __________
> Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"so color me naive"
Ok, I will, I have been designing electronic controls
for GE, Baldor and Ametek for 17 years. I don't claim
to be as smart as you Dan, but I do realize what it
cost to produce a control, and MOSFET/IGBT costs are a
small part of the equation. I won't go into detail
why the costs are higher, because you will not listen
to reason, so my challenge is "create a control that
can even come close to the cost of a Zilla". I know
you get a kick out of listening to experienced
designers contradict your version of reality, but I
have to laugh, until you produce something that
contradicts your claims, you are just a fool. So,
instead of writing emails, produce a control and prove
us all wrong, until then you are just a troll that is
amusing to those that know.
Have fun and provide us with a link to your new design
:-) (along with prices!)
P.S. I do get a laugh every time I read your emails,
but not in the same way as experienced people like Jim
Husted, Mike Willmon and James Massey who actually
have dirty finger nails!
--- Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is your scientific background Wayland?
>
> your assessment of my understanding seems to
> indicate that you don't
> have a lot. you might simply be confusing my
> statements with those of
> others.
>
> I am impressed that so much power can be channelled
> in so small devices
> but it's the power transistors that impress me. not
> putting them
> together. and as it turns out those power
> transistors can be
> surprisingly cheap. for instance Oatmeal has said he
> pays around 160$
> for the transistors in a zilla1k : )
> all 1000amps worth of them. so color me naive for
> thinking we can do
> something amazing on the price of a 350V 500A DC
> controller if kept KISSy
>
> that's 230 horsies for those without a scientific
> background
>
> Dan
>
>
> John Wayland wrote alot:
> >
> > See Ya.....John Wayland
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> matter. My point was that even robust motors like the ones graphed on the
> linked spreadsheet have sweet spot (shaft speed) beyond which torque falls
> off and drawing additional current to sustain torque exceeds safe
> continuous
> duty parameters.
No, wrong. The torque falls off because there isn't sufficient voltage
from the pack to push the high current anymore. The current is falling
off and because of that so does the torque.
If you raised the voltage, you could continue to apply the same current
and get the same torque, however the fall off point is usually near the
maximum RPM limits for the motor anyway, and there is very little point in
being able to apply maximum torque while the motor is tearing itself apart
from centrifugal force.
> With I.C. engines, variable timing now allows for very
> flat
> torque curves throughout most of the usable rev range (1500-6500rpm), and
> of
> course they use gears or CVTs to keep them in that range. Agreed?
Not really, the torque is nowhere near as flat as it is with electric
motors and you still can't get torque from an ICE at zero rpm.
With the right controller and battery package you can get perfectly flat
maximum torque from zero RPM all the way to redline on an electric motor.
Yes, multiple gears and or a CVT is essential for an ICE. It isn't not
essential for an electric motor. Infact none of the recent production EVs
used a multispeed gearbox or CVT, they simply used a single ratio
reduction and let the motor and controller handle the various torque/RPM
as needed.
With the electric motors typically used in conversions, a multispeed
transmission is usefull, but a CVT would waste more energy than it would
improve the performance of the motor and this is why very few people use
them.
At any rate this is all beside the point Your design goals for your
motorcycle are not practical with todays technology, at least not until
Lithium based batteries get a bit cheaper.
100 mph on a motorcycle takes a tremendous amount of power, getting over
30 miles of range requires a lot of energy. Getting a battery that can
support both of these goals in a small enough package to fit on a
motorcycle is very tough.
>
>>>
>>> Plenty of electric motors can do that, umm the Solectria and Seimens
>>> motors come to mind.
>>
>> Indeed, have a look at this spreadsheet. It plots torque curves for
>> various Seimens motors with various battery voltages.
>>
>> http://www.metricmind.com/data/performance.zip
>>
>> Note, this doesn't work with openoffice, but did when I tried the real
>> Excel.
>>
>
> Thank you for sharing this. Too few manufacturers offer line graphs. Very
> useful.
>
> Lon Hull,
> Portland, OR
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have time for all that why not a line or two about why it must
cost so much more than the cost of the power electronics.
Ian hooper just did a run down on the price of the 3 main components in
a curtis 1221 and came to 80$
what else?
you have something real I will listen
Dan
Rod Hower wrote:
"so color me naive"
Ok, I will, I have been designing electronic controls
for GE, Baldor and Ametek for 17 years. I don't claim
to be as smart as you Dan, but I do realize what it
cost to produce a control, and MOSFET/IGBT costs are a
small part of the equation. I won't go into detail
why the costs are higher, because you will not listen
to reason, so my challenge is "create a control that
can even come close to the cost of a Zilla". I know
you get a kick out of listening to experienced
designers contradict your version of reality, but I
have to laugh, until you produce something that
contradicts your claims, you are just a fool. So,
instead of writing emails, produce a control and prove
us all wrong, until then you are just a troll that is
amusing to those that know.
Have fun and provide us with a link to your new design
:-) (along with prices!)
P.S. I do get a laugh every time I read your emails,
but not in the same way as experienced people like Jim
Husted, Mike Willmon and James Massey who actually
have dirty finger nails!
--- Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What is your scientific background Wayland?
your assessment of my understanding seems to
indicate that you don't
have a lot. you might simply be confusing my
statements with those of
others.
I am impressed that so much power can be channelled
in so small devices
but it's the power transistors that impress me. not
putting them
together. and as it turns out those power
transistors can be
surprisingly cheap. for instance Oatmeal has said he
pays around 160$
for the transistors in a zilla1k : )
all 1000amps worth of them. so color me naive for
thinking we can do
something amazing on the price of a 350V 500A DC
controller if kept KISSy
that's 230 horsies for those without a scientific
background
Dan
John Wayland wrote alot:
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dan, what have you been doing the last couple weeks on the list? Not reading
it I see. Thread after thread has gone by where
people have been trying to tell you "why it must cost so much more than the
cost of the power electronics."
They are people who have something real. And you aren't listening. Will you
EVer as the subject line says **"Make It"**???
Hey Rod, my fingernails are that dirty ;-) I just cleaned them out last night
after running a whole can of Go-Jo over the whole
grease and grime filled front end of this Pinto. I can see "Made in America"
part numbers on EVerything now :-}
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 7:04 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Make it
>
>
> If you have time for all that why not a line or two about why it must
> cost so much more than the cost of the power electronics.
> Ian hooper just did a run down on the price of the 3 main components in
> a curtis 1221 and came to 80$
> what else?
> you have something real I will listen
>
> Dan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jukka
You can take this advise back to your company. They would produce many more
sales in the US quicker if they replace the defective ones sold before. Not
only will you win over the previous buyers this will leave a strong impression
everyone here on this list. The previous buyers will inform others of the
results and it would be a new beginning for TS in the USA.
This is a small investment by your company if the new cells are as good as
you say. If the TS new product is not all you claim I can understand why this
would not be a smart move. I cannot think of anyway you could do more to pro
mote EVs and TS. Is there no one at TS that might be concerned on what your
being told here? If many potential customers if not enough what does that
imply?
If you do not have any influence on this decision please say so and we will
let the history of TS stand as a warning to anyone thinking of buying your
product. You will need to do more than just talk to change minds here. Most
will not just accept it from you about how good TS and their products are
today. I was not involved in the original buy of the TS batteries. I have
nothing
to gain here but just relating an honest assessment. Based on what I have
heard and how most people here in the USA see this.
An actual example of what happened here a short time ago.
I just replace a pack of batteries for an EV driver under warranty at no
cost to the owner. I sent back all remaining stock from that battery
manufacturer for a refund. The US company gave full credit because the
batteries did not
perform as expected. Even though the product was a disappointment I still
like the company and they have a good image with EVs. I would gladly try them
again if they have a better replacement. They have shown themselves to be
trust worthy.
As far as balancing of A123 I was referring to how they stay in balance
compared to NiMH batteries. I drive everyday electric with a NiMH pack and
that
technology is harder to keep in balance. Also a high self discharge rate.
If you want to get back on topics stop repeatedly trying to endorse TS as a
proven product. I did not know at first you were working for TS. It is wrong
that the assessment of their performance was coming from an undisclosed bias
party. If your going to continue to promote TS you should not do it without
revealing your association with TS.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/25/2007 2:33:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well.. I'm not suggesting to forgive TS for the whole screw up. Why
should you ? I'm telling what I have a chance to be a part of. Excellent
battery technology which perhaps will help EVs to be more popular. Is
there something wrong about that ?
To bring the technology up to western standards (yes, customer service
also) there's a lot to be done. But without the bond with the source of
the technology it's just sales rep BS after all. So I wanted to get
involved. But just to clarify. I do NOT own TS. Okey ?
Again. I had nothing to do with the old-stock-sales stuff that took over
here. I saw what happened and try to help now if I can.
TS has potential to blow the price off the Lions. Is there anything
wrong about that either ? Heck.. I've been waiting this to happen longer
than I have had a drivers licence.. I'm driving Lithium every day!
What ever the situation is.... the fact is that with very high
propability these batteries will not be sold in US anyway by TS. I think
there are already four factories starting to produce the tech around the
globe and other four trying to copy it (mainly in China). Different
packaging and outlook. So how you can tell what you're buying ?
Don, for the last line in your mail please define "balance".
Will the cells all die during the same cycle ? Will the cells be in
similar enough (0.01V) voltage during all SOC and loads and ambient
temps ? Do they achieve 0 and 100 SOC simultanously ?
( Getting back to topic ? :)
-Jukka
[EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
> Hello Jukka
>
> All these claims below sound great but unless you take care of the prior
> buyers of TS I will not be considering them. I would want to see real
world
> results with users here. I just ordered two motors from Victor and will be
> reviewing my options on batteries.
>
> The prior buyers were sold bad product and that has not been addressed.
> Your company choose to keep the name and as far as I am concerned there
is a
> price for doing that. In one of your emails you stated how long must one
> live with the past of a different company same name. To discourage this ty
pe of
> customer service most people here and myself will say forever.
>
> On the subject line I hear A123 batteries keep in balance very well.
>
> Don Blazer
>
> In a message dated 6/24/2007 12:11:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Balancing only during charging will get the job half way done. With
> shunting you'll accumulate quite bad well-to-wheel efficiency. Also the
> charging time will be longer.
>
> During discharge balancing is quite useful since you'll get the most of
> range out too. And not stressing the weakest link the most. Also the
> discharging can be weary process.
>
> With Lions you'll get the range and at least in my drivings it takes
> several hours to deplete the batteries. So power is not the issue with
> balancing. You have time for the compensation procedures. Also
> pre-emptive balancing methods are essential.
>
> Ok. Say you wish the pack to last 50 000 miles. You'll get away with 200
> mile range and 250 cycles. No balancing required. Some tape, bubble gum
> and protection circuits will do the job.
>
> So how about if the 3000 cycles could be achieved with the best BMS ever
> made? That's with 70% average DOD about 400 000 miles. Say you invest
> the 30 000 on the pack with BMS and charger. That's 0,075 USD for a mile !
>
> (20 kWh/100 km assumed as average here)
>
> -Jukka
>
>
>
> Tony Hwang kirjoitti:
>> Yes that would be better to move charge around instead of shunting, but
> there's no way to make an active charge shuttling balancer for "cheap",
at
> least not that I know of.
>>
>> - Tony
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:39:45 AM
>> Subject: RE: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
>>
>> Please educate me if I am wrong but I would think that if you want to
>> balance your batteries you wouldn't want to drain some down to match the
>> others but charge the low ones to match the others. Using shunt
>> regulators will waste valuable charging current won't it? I think Lee
>> Hart makes a battery balancer that takes the current and shunts it
>> AROUND the battery but does not run it through a resistor.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Marcin Ciosek
>> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:12
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
>>
>> Tony,
>>
>> recently I bough 1900 LiFP cells (not from A123 but it doesn't matter)
>> and the voltage difference between highest and lowest value was 7mV !!
>> Assuming you will start from similar point you balancer will do the
>> trick as long as zener diodes won't differ too much (usually tolerance
>> of of shunt voltage is 5%). That's my opinion. I would add a protection
>> circuit preventing cells from deep discharge.
>> If you don't need fancy BMS that would cost (for you configuration) 400E
>> this will work fine.
>>
>> Marcin
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
>
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Claudio,
I still use that program once in a while. Its pretty neat. I'd like to build
up a small color LCD module to display it in my dash. One request I'd have is
that you bring out user selectable limits that can work forom 48V to 348V and
0A to 2000A without having to show unneccessary portions of the range. You had
recompiled a set for me for my 192V 1000A pack, but now I'm running 120V to 350
A. Its a display package for the Zilla worth buying.
Joseph,
You can see the FasTrack outputs (Claudio mentioned from SunCoast) displaying
some data I pulled from my Zilla using Hyperterminal, at this site:
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Claudio Natoli
> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 5:30 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Data Logging for Zilla
>
>
>
> > Is there a data logging program for a laptop PC that can put the Zilla
> > in data streaming mode and log the data?
>
> As Mike says, Hyperterminal works fine -- just run through the menu to enter
> DAQ mode ('p' then 'Q' then the mode you
> want like '4', iirc) and use Capture Text.
>
> For analysis, check out FasTrack from the Sun Coast EV guys:
> http://www.suncoast.net/fastrack.htm
>
> Some time ago, I wrote an OpenGL program for Windows that logs the data and
> spits out basic gauges while running (very
> very basic, and I've never gotten around to packaging it for wider use) that
> I can compile up for you. Contact me off
> list if interested.
>
> Cheers,
> Claudio
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The claims made about the firefly batteries if true. Would make them worth
three times the cost of lead batteries. They would be a huge leap in
performance.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/25/2007 7:32:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
They are designers. From 3 to 30 people in 3 years per
a Peoria Newspaper article linked to their website.
The are designing the batteries for Husqvarna
gardening equipment such as weed eaters, lawnmowers.
They are not building product. They are R & D and then
selling the design to the individual manufactures to
build their own batteries. In May 2007 they signed a
manufacturing agreement with Crown Battery In April
thay signed an agreement with North Star Battery.
Read the press releases and news articles.
www.fireflyenergy.com
With the release to Crown there maybe hope for use
EV'er to see these batteries in the next year or 2.
The Weight savings is in the lack of main plates.
Instead of plates with lead paste spread across them
they use a Carbon Fiber screen. So image a Trojan 125
weighing only 16.5 lbs instead of 66 lbs. On a 72 Volt
pack we are talking 200 lbs verse 800 lbs. Or imagine
Johns White Zombie from his roughly 500 lbs reduced
to 125 lbs. John that is only a guest on weight of
your present pack weight no insult intended. But
essentially if batteries where a 1/4 of the weight
where will EV be tomorrow. This is what makes Lithium
batteries so attractive. IF Carbon Fiber plates can do
the same for Lead then So be it. And hopefully at a
similar price to lead batteries now. I know I'm
dreaming here.
--- "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think they saidth that they already do have a
> battery; they say it's
> going to be used in real life for some company or
> something.
>
> On 6/25/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hello Lawrence
> >
> > One other difference then regular lead batteries.
> If I remember right they
> > were to weigh like 1/4 the weight of lead acid
> batteries.
> >
> > I read about these at least 2 or 3 years ago. They
> even had the city they
> > were in investing money into the new company. You
> would think they would have a
> > battery out by now?
> >
> > Don Blazer
> >
> > In a message dated 6/25/2007 2:11:18 PM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > If what they say is true there won't be any
> difference between them and
> > regular lead batteries except capacity,
> durability & reliability. I suspect
> > they won't even need regulators. Lawrence
> Rhodes....
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 8:22 PM
> > Subject: firefly batteries?
> >
> >
> > > Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on these?
> I sort of have an in
> > > with the company to test some in my EV
> (probably about 5 or 10%
> > > probability, but that's better than no
> contacts)... but as of yet all
> > > I've seen is hype, not specs. BMS required?
> Discharge rate? cycles?
> > > Thermal management? Not even sure if they
> really exist yet.... I
> > > supposed I could ask my contact there, but I
> figured someone on this
> > > list might have already researched them more
> than I have.
> > >
> > > Z
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ************************************** See what's
> free at http://www.aol.com.
> >
> >
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
______
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok,
I put 4 or 5 miles on trying it out more completely. I am happy enough
with it now. Monitoring the motor amps with the calibrator I can see at
higher speeds I can get up to 120 motor amps on regen. I don't have a
battery amp meter hooked up right now, so I don't know how that
translates to what's going in the batteries yet.
What does jive with the comment about regen diodes being 1/4 the
traction diodes.
Trying to see how much variably there is with the pot I got it up to 40
mph and tried to gently pull up the pot. From watching the calibrator
it looked like I was practically only getting 3 or 4 levels of
variation. I was unable to get a small amount of regen motor amps when
starting from a high speed. It seemed like it started around 50 motor
amps. At lower speeds it seemed like as few as 5 motor amps could be
had during braking.
I did use the analog input 2 for the regen pot.
Garret
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I alot of people have claimed that it must be that expensive but I don't
believe they have offered specific reasons why
to sum up:
the electronics parts cost
circuit board
any bussbar
casing, cooling plumbing and prettyfication
assembly/programming
is either of those super expensive in your opinion and if so which and
how much?
I don't consider the design a cost since that's a one off so don't
mention that
do you have any costs to add?
Dan
Mike Willmon wrote:
Dan, what have you been doing the last couple weeks on the list? Not reading
it I see. Thread after thread has gone by where
people have been trying to tell you "why it must cost so much more than the cost of
the power electronics."
They are people who have something real. And you aren't listening. Will you EVer as the
subject line says **"Make It"**???
Hey Rod, my fingernails are that dirty ;-) I just cleaned them out last night
after running a whole can of Go-Jo over the whole
grease and grime filled front end of this Pinto. I can see "Made in America"
part numbers on EVerything now :-}
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 7:04 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Make it
If you have time for all that why not a line or two about why it must
cost so much more than the cost of the power electronics.
Ian hooper just did a run down on the price of the 3 main components in
a curtis 1221 and came to 80$
what else?
you have something real I will listen
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice video, congrats! :)
----- Original Message ----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 12:32:23 PM
Subject: EVgrin - RAVolt takes first EV trip
All,
I know the list loves good news: the RAVolt made her maiden voyage
over the weekend!
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUv3wZQTcQE
Rob H
RAVolt.com & EValbum 995
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> A Curtis 1221 controller's power section has 32 220uf 200vdc
>> electrolytic capacitors, 36 BUZ30A 200v 21a 0.1 ohm MOSFETs, and 12
>> 200v 40a SR4180R-C diodes. Look up the prices, and add up the cost.
>> Now tell me what you would use in their place that's any cheaper.
Ian Hooper wrote:
OK, I wasn't picking on their component choice so much as saying you
can build your own speed controller for a lot less than it costs to
*buy* a Curtis.
I'm a good engineer, and a pretty good technician. I *have* built
products of this sort. In my experience, it is impossible to build your
own Curtis controller for less money than Curtis charges, unless you
place no value on your time, your tools, and your training.
If you think you can do it, be my guest! Give it a try! Even if you
fail, you will have learned a lot. We'll talk more when you've finished.
The retail price of the 1221s is about $1100, correct? For power
stage component cost, going on quantities of 1000 units, prices from
digikey are...
If you use quantity 1 pricing for the Curtis, then you have to use
quantity pricing to build 1 controller yourself (not 1000-piece pricing).
As for component selection, they're fine I guess but I tend to think
it's more elegant to go with a smaller number of higher-rated semis,
such as the IXFK120N20 (200V 120A 0.017ohm MOSFET) @ ~$10ea or the
STTH60L06C 80A diodes @ ~$2ea, even though it may end up costing a tad
more.
My point was that the parts Curtis has chosen are already about the
cheapest you can get that will do the job. The alternates that you found
cost *more* -- not less. And, you are picking parts based on their
advertised specs, not what they actually deliver. You would find out as
soon as you try to build a controller with these parts that they need to
be considerably derated to survive for very long.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
