EV Digest 7082
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Modifying a zilla speed sensor
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) RE: Hybrid "gas" pedal
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) A slower type of Lawless Industries EV's
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: A123 chemistry
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now
by Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) solid state relays
by "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: delurking
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) what does Ah or ampere hour signify
by "gulabrao ingle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Could higher pack voltage be stepped down for Curtis input?
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
by Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered
records
by Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered
records
by Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now
by Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know if the zilla "cup speed sensor" on the cafe electric
site can be modified. If the pickup sensor is located at the bottom
of the cup where the wires go in (assuming this) I can cut the cup
off and place the sensor close to the magnet. If the sensor is not
there at the bottom and around the cup or something odd like that,
the cup will have to remain. I have a long shaft on the motor and
some clearance issues that prevent the cup from being used. Anyone
know where the sensor resides and how it works specifically so I can
start chopping...
Thanks,
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
F.T.
Get that bike out of mothballs, put in some new DEKAS, and put it in
the 11's !
The best way I know to get back out racing is to give them a reason.
If I can help in any way let me know.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:25 am
Subject: RE: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
Hi, Shawn,
Congratulations on your new record. Maybe this will entice Steve Kiser
to
take Dragon Rose out of mothballs and get back on the track.
I am also interested in seeing pictures of AGNS. It must be an awesome
ride.
- F.T.
[Original Message]
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Date: 7/28/2007 4:41:35 PM
Subject: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
The weather was touch and go at Quaker City Raceway in Salem, OH
today
but the sun finally won out as Denis Stanislaw and AGNS captured
NEDRA
record # 6 in the MT-D class. We set up with 14 DEKA's (168 volts)
and
set our sites on the 12.49 record set back in 2004. We left the track
with a best run of 12.08 @ 102.91 in the semi final round of
eliminations. We had dialed a 12.07 and beat one of the regulars at
the
the track and for a brief moment we thought Denis had made it all the
way to the finals. Unfortunately he was disqualified after the run
for
going past the stage lights during his burnout. The 12.08 was backed
up
with two runs of 12.15 @ 103 MPH. Next stop 240 volts !!! We may just
skip the 11's and head straight for the 10's. Probably not but it
sure
sounds good.
Shawn Lawless
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keith,
We are using aluminum 10" wide rims with 8" wide slicks stretched out.
There are two in a tandem setup making AGNS a 3 wheel inline motorcycle.
Maybe the first ever on a dragstrip, but I doubt it. By playing with
the motor magnets, tire diameter, and series/parallel arrangements of
the motors we can switch between voltages rather easily even without
actual gearing. I checked the 60 ft times for AGNS from Saturday. The
best was 1.6 secs. Almost quicker than OJ. I have a feeling she is
going to better this when given the added torque of 6 more batteries.
AGNS actually made her debut in south Florida. Her best run that
night... 22 secs @ 67 MPH.
On not really sure how to post photos, but if you can do it I will be
glad to email them to you.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:27 am
Subject: Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
Thanks Shawn I appreciate the answer but I guess I
didn't ask the right questions, I'll try again.
what size, type of construction Mags/Steel/Aluminum
what configuration I think you mentioned duel rear
wheels in one of your posts?
Tires slicks or street
batteries size do you change it when you up the
voltage(how are you able to use the same vehicle for
so many v classes?) If you were closer I would come
to see you race. I went to florida to see OJ but you
didn't have AGNS then. Are you going to the NEDRA
finals on the 17th?
keith
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Douglas wheels
Burris tires
DEKA AGM batteries
-----Original Message-----
From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 10:36 am
Subject: Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Shawn,
Sounds great to me.
What kind of batteries? What kind of wheels/tires?
keith
So one more time through the calculator:
> Calcualted wheel HP = 20 x 4.8 = 96 wheel hp
> Estimated ET = 10.85 secs @ 125 MPH.
>
>
> Now that would be pretty fast on a minibike.
>
> Shawn
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 1:51 am
> Subject: Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
>
>
> Shawn, much congratulations on your new record! I
> would just like to
> add one comment. In your enthusiasm you wrote:
"The
> 12.08 was backed up
> with two runs of 12.15 @ 103 MPH. Next stop 240
> volts !!! We may just
> skip the 11's and head straight for the 10's.
> Probably not but it sure
> sounds good."
> Just so the newbees on the list know, in our
daily
> life a second may
> seem like a very short time but on a drag strip it
> is an eternity. The
> difference between 11 second ETs and 10 second ETs
> is the difference
> between being twenty years old and being sixty.
That
> analogy may give
> some of you a clue :-)\
>
> Roderick
>
> Roderick Wilde
> Vintage Golf Cart Parts
> Specializing in Parts for Harley and many other
> mature carts
> www.vintagegolfcartparts.com
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Phone: 360-385-4868
> P.O. Box 221
> Port Townsend, WA 98368
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 4:38 PM
> Subject: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
>
> > The weather was touch and go at Quaker City
> Raceway in Salem, OH
> today but > the sun finally won out as Denis
> Stanislaw and AGNS
> captured NEDRA record > # 6 in the MT-D class. We
> set up with 14 DEKA's
> (168 volts) and set our > sites on the 12.49
record
> set back in 2004.
> We left the track with a best > run of 12.08 @
> 102.91 in the semi final
> round of eliminations. We had > dialed a 12.07 and
> beat one of the
> regulars at the the track and for a > brief moment
> we thought Denis had
> made it all the way to the finals. > Unfortunately
> he was disqualified
> after the run for going past the stage > lights
> during his burnout.
> sounds good.The 12.08 was backed up with two >
runs
> of 12.15 @ 103 MPH.
> Next stop 240 volts !!! We may just skip the 11's
>
> and head straight
> for the 10's. Probably not but it sure
> >
> > Shawn Lawless
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
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> more about what's
> free > from AOL at AOL.com.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 /
> Virus Database: >
> 269.10.22/923 - Release Date: 7/27/2007 6:01 PM
> >
> >
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out
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> =0
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can anyone confirm this?
Has anyone put one of these "gas" pedals from a hybrid in their EV?
Many ICE cars are that way. Pretty much all highway trucks (and
diesel pickup trucks) have been that way since 1994. Detroit
Diesel has been electronic long before that.
Most of them consist of either dual or triple redundant pots,
or one pot and an idle / off-idle (DPST) switch. Sometimes
two pots and an idle switch. The triple pot gives the most
redundancy as a single failure can be isolated and a trusted
value generated. GM has done that for some time. The EV1 used
a triple pot as well.
I have not used one in an EV but I intend on it. I've written
ICE engine control software to use them, and at work we use
them on CNG vehicles all of the time (my day job).
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John and Roderick and all!
Aaron Clark from AP called while I was on vacation last week to
follow up with questions concerning the article.
He had asked where I thought EV racing was heading and was interested
in the amount of cars that show up and the amount of sanctioned races
we have each year. I gave a pretty positive response but in
hindsight should have re-emphasized the tremendous leaps EVs have
made these past 10 years. But I didn't think it warranted much
emphasis since he was there to see it for himself at your race! It's
right there on YouTube. You beat a hot Mustang for crying out loud.
But I don't think the point should be to beat the fastest ICE car, at
least not right now. Especially, if Aaron and the NHRA compare the
Zombie to the fastest ICE cars which are Top Fueler Funny Cars and
Dragsters which don't even use gas. They use alcohol or something
exotic formulated specifically for racing, with just enough fuel to
make the run. And they have big corporate sponsors behind them. The
Army being the one sponsoring the fastest dragster (from what I
remember) Plus you need a special NHRA license to drive under 10 or 9
seconds in the NHRA. If Aaron and the NHRA is comparing the Zombie to
those types of vehicles, it's not even a fair comparison by a long
shot. Those are completely different vehicles altogether. The step
above that is the Sportsman series racers and they are running full
cages and are completely tubbed out. The Zombie isn't even in the
NEDRA "Extreme Class" which besides the "Dragster" classes are the
closest classes we have to those vehicles.
The NHRA should know better then to make that comparison with Zombie.
They themselves should have give Zombie credit for the competition
it's giving cars in it's respective ICE classes. That's where the
Zombie is knocking off the competition. That NHRA official didn't
even acknowledge the 60 foot times or is he even paying attention?
I think the NHRA was wayyyy out of line here with that remark, but
not surprising.
OK, true we aren't there yet. But at least make a fairer comparison
between the respective ICE and EV classes when spouting off assumptions.
The Zombie with "two motors on a skewer" handily beat out a 400 ci
Pontiac muscle car for crying out loud. I'm surprised the NHRA hasn't
considered the ramifications of those little electric motors beating
out the big blocks that have dominated the drag strips for all these
years. That's where the story should be.
I think we will be there very soon and will have that NHRA character
eating his own words.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
On Jul 29, 2007, at 9:46 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: July 29, 2007 9:21:02 PM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EVs are slower than ICEs...for now
Hello to All,
Bill Dube wrote:
I have to agree with Jim on this one. The article gave a very
balanced account of the present state of EV drag racing in the
context of ICE drag racing.
And I have to disagree, big time. Comparing a street legal sedan to
an all-out funny car is not by any stretch of the imagination,
balanced! That's exactly what Mr. Clark did when he cited White
Zombie's 11.4 ET and then in the same line, said it was 6.4 seconds
off the best top fuel record...you call that balanced?
We aren't _the_ very fastest ....yet.
I nor anyone in our crew, nor any other team of EV racers have ever
made a claim like that.
It is a fact that the fastest EVs are not as fast as the fastest
ICEs on the drag strip at this time.
Who has ever said this? What we do say and what we do, is compare
our EV's performance to similar gas cars' performance...and this is
important...in the same racing class. I compare my street legal EV
that is driven to the track to other street legal gas cars driven
to the track, and I never, ever say we are faster than any gas
car...ever. I do point out when we are the quickest car at the
track on a given night. I also, to help non-car nut folks
appreciate what our EV's performance is like, often compare our car
to factory available street cars. This is valid and fun, as it
raises quite a few eyebrows to learn that a backyard converted
electric car can waste a Porsche, Vette, or Ferrari in the 1/4 mile
drag!
>To argue against this is foolish.
To argue that our EV is quicker than 'any' other gas car is for
sure, foolish, because there will always be somebody quicker and
faster. We don't do that, and we never have. To argue against
stupid remarks like Mr. Clark's however, is smart, not foolish.
It's smart because it corrects misinformation that his bad writing
implies...comparing a street legal electric car's 1/4 mile
performance to a several thousand hp all-out funny car...now that,
is foolish! It's also foolish 'not' to speak up and correct
misinformation when it presents itself. The comparison of a street
legal sedan, whether electric or gas powered, to a $250,000
nitromethane burning funny car or nitromethane burning rail
dragster is misinformation if it implies to an uneducated reader
that the two are comparable...and again, that;'s exactly what Clark
did.
To be insulted by this statement of fact is hubris.
You are muddying up the waters here. I was not insulted by the
statement of fact that you and your race-only drag bike are a few
seconds off from the very top dog nitromethane burning drag
bike...that was a valid comparison, because by your own yardstick,
you're out to ultimately meet and then exceed that nitromethane
bike's potential...and for the record, I and I'm sure all other EV
fans are 100% behind you all the way, and very proud of your
accomplishments to date!
What I was offended by...and I made it quite clear, was his
absolutely stupid comparison of my car, a car anyone with a brain
knows is racing in a street legal regular car class, to one of the
most radical machines ever to run down a track, a nitromethane
burning funny car or rail (he also exhibited bad writing by not
making which top fuel machine he was comparing to, clear).
Here's the best way to make myself as clear as possible. If Mr.
Clark was trying to say that EVs are getting quicker, but are still
a ways off from the baddest of the bad nitromethane machines, he
could have written it this way, and I would not have anything to say:
In the most popular professional division, Top Fuel Racing, dragsters
with large rear wheels and narrow bodies reach speeds exceeding 330
m.p.h.
(530 km/h) in 4.6 seconds. Drivers are practically flattened
against their
seats during their short ride, meeting more g-forces than
astronauts during a
space shuttle launch. No one in the world of racing EVs are
challenging this upper
end of racing machines at this moment, though with continued
battery development,
it's only a matter of time.
But electric drag racers are increasingly showing up at drag strips
across the country to show what they can do. White Zombie, an old
Datsun economy car converted to electric power is full street legal
and
has run the quarter-mile in 11.46 seconds - that's quicker than
a 2007 505-horsepower Corvette ZO6, one of the quickest production
vehicles available to the general public.
Their vehicles are posting faster and faster times at amateur
meets, but
the pure racing EVs have a ways to go before matching professional
world
record times. The quickest quarter-mile time by an electric vehicle
is the
KillaCycle's 8.16 seconds - that's 2.36 seconds off the nitromethane
world record for drag bikes set by Larry "Spiderman" McBride last
year.
--------------------------------------
See, it's easy to be clear, easy to be fair, easy to not make an
apples to oranges comparison, as did Clark.
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not sure if this is completely on topic but it's consumed most of life
lately so I thought I would attach a link to some new EV's we exported
to China this year. These are a little slower than AGNS and OJ. Top
speed is 5 MPH. 60 ft time of about 30 secs during normal operation.
But they do have max torque of over 10,000 ft-lbs !!! Huge onboard
water tanks feed jets that spray everywhere. Who says water and
electric don't mix.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3XHiOFWuww
Shawn Lawless
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The information available on Thundersky and Everspring's website kept me
wonder why they are giving such wide voltage range for charging.
First I though that TS product is a bit different in cathode/anode chemistry
but MSDS gives straight information about what's inside.
So I asked a company that ordered BMSes for TS project to send me a piece or
two for investigation. Meanwhile I tried to contact Everspring representative
and get some information. I was answered by Keith Lau:
> I am not too sure about your question. Anyway, the norminal voltage of
> TS-LFP series is about 3.2V. 2v to 3.6v is basically a limit of safety
> operation of the battery; in other words, you cannot charge over 3.6 v and
> you cannot allow the battery discharge below 2.0v.
>
> In normal circumstance, you may just want to charge upto 3.45v and
> discharge to 2.6v which will account for over 95% of the battery capacity.
>
> MC> I know LiFP batteries are safe for overcharge but doing it constatnly
> MC> leads to shorten battery life.
>
> you are correct. Overcharging is the major problem leads to the shorten
> battery life or even battery damaged.
And in the meantime lab tests gave me results that charging TS with 3.6 V
limit gives full charge withing 10% longer period of time than under
overvoltage.
That's all I know.
Generally TS business is a bit strange, their websites are full of
inconsistent information that can lead even to cell destruction.
Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> It is a fact that the fastest EVs are not as fast as the fastest ICEs
> on the drag strip at this time.
It doesn't matte how fast you are, or if you drive an IC powered vehicle or an
EV. Someone is always faster. Comparing a top fuel funny car to a Datsun is
just silly.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am considering using solid state relays in a battery balancer system. The
DC models seem to be very expensive. I wonder why? Don't they consist of
just a pair of high power mosfets and an optoisolator/driver?
Could I build my own?
Al
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
I tend to agree with Chip's take on this subject though I also think some of
us may be taking the comments of a reporter who obviously knows very little
about drag racing much too seriously.
The NHRA has been around for well over 50 years, NEDRA has existed for ten
years.
The folks at the NHRA are certainly stuck in their belief systems and won't
be accepting any kind of major paradigm shift until it slaps them in the
face.
I believe that EV racers are catching up by leaps and bounds and that the
ICE racers aren't going to know what hit them till it is over and done with.
Especially as far as street-driven vehicles are concerned. I think that with
the right EV component set, ICE folks are already at a disadvantage from
stoplight to stoplight. This has already been proven over and over. Max
torque at -0- RPM
ICE drag racing is a -very- mature technology, there are not going to be any
-major- leaps like EV drag racing. [IIRC, pro-stock competitors are within a
couple thousandths of a second of each other, not to mention top fuel and
funny cars]
We have no idea what the near future may bring. Who knows, we may pull our
electricity from the ether like Nikola Tesla :^D
Seriously, just look at the rapid advancements that backyard builders with
little money are doing.
If folks were to throw millions of dollars at EV drag racing I have a
feeling that it would advance exponentially almost overnight.
I would betcha that if someone that could afford it thought they could beat
nitromethane burning vehicles in the 1/4 mile with battery electric vehicles
the money would appear and the vehicles would be built.
I know that all it takes to interest folks in hot EVs is to get Joe
Sixpack/NASCAR dads in the driver's [or passenger's] seat. I have driven the
White Zombie and Gone Postal. Once you have experienced the brute torque an
electric drag racin' vehicle can provide you will never look back.
This is after more than 20 years experience as an ICE mechanic and
hot-rodder.
And... you can go get the groceries in the Zombie or Gone Postal in almost
total silence with the manners of a Cadillac and no one will ever know of
the inherent capabilities of these vehicles until they see you pulling away
from them like a shot out of a cannon [just in case some missed this fact,
the the KillaCycle posted the quickest 60' time -ever recorded- at PIR. Yes,
I know, it is not a street-legal vehicle, though if you dressed it up like
one you could still get the groceries with it and no one would have a clue
as to the capabilities]
NEDRA invites all EVers and EVs to come to the 10th Anniversary NEDRA
Nationals at Portland International Raceway on August 17 and 18. It is
shaping up to be our biggest EVent ever with more competitors in one place
than ever before.
More info in the near future here on the EVDL.
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA Northwest Regional Director
www.nedra.com
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn Lawless wrote:
We are using aluminum 10" wide rims with 8" wide slicks stretched out.
There are two in a tandem setup making AGNS a 3 wheel inline motorcycle.
Maybe the first ever on a dragstrip, but I doubt it.
I am not clear on what you mean by this Shawn, but -three wheels- on a
-motorcycle- are [AFAIK and IIRC] in violation of NHRA and NEDRA
regulations. You may want to double-check the rule books. We really want you
to have the record but it has to be within the existing rules. I could be
wrong here, I don't have an NHRA rulebook handy at the moment. NHRA regs
supersede any NEDRA regs as far as legal vehicle layouts are concerned.
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA Northwest Regional Director
www.nedra.com
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave probably means Saabrina:
http://www.saabrina.blogspot.com/
According to the website it is in St Charles, Missouri.
Mark Ward is on this list IIRC.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 7:36 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: delurking
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'd like to introduce myself to the list.
>
> I myself would very much like to convert my 1971 SAAB 96 when I move
> back from Los Angeles to the Boston area in a year or two.
Welcome to the list mos6507. When you move back east, you won't be alone. If
you move closer to Wooster than Boston, you'll find a number of EAA members
who can help with the conversion. And there are a few of us in Connecticut
too. There is another Saab owner on the list who has been converting
recently, but I don't remember where he is in the process. Don't be a
stranger. You can probably find most answers to your questions in the EVDL
archives.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Dave Cover in CT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All
What does Ampere hour signify ?
does a higher ah rating equals more range , what is the ideal Ah
rating for an EV
Thanks
Gulabrao
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A single string of 17 group 34 batts (like Optima YTs)
could fit into my Geo Metro EV for 204 volts nominal.
Is there any way to step down that pack voltage to
around 150-160 volts for input into the existing
Curtis 1231 controller (rated 144v nominal max)?
The Geo EV's original converter did such a nice job
with the controller/heatsink/cooling fan installation,
that i can't bear the thought of ripping that all out
even if it meant replacing it with a zilla.
Mark
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, if decreasing the width of the tire causes it to deflect more, then yes,
the contact patch may remain constant. Then again, it could decrease. It could
increase as well. Whether the contact patch are decreases, increases, or stays
the same depends on tire pressure, vehicle weight (or mass for all of you
metric wing nuts out there :-D ), side wall stiffness. Oh heck, while we're at
it, lets throw in tire air temperature. I don't think that a tire's contact
patch is as directly proportional to tire pressure and vehicle weight as you
claim. I could be wrong though.
However, if I am wrong, why do road riders (bicyclists) use such narrow tires?
Why do so many small EVs and cars like GM's Sun Racer use such narrow tires? Is
it only for the sake of keeping rotating weight down? I don't think that's the
only reason.
Oh here's another example, though one that people are probably not as familiar
with. Why did my street luge go so much faster with 4 roller blade wheels on it
than it did with 4 skate board wheels on it? It also had less traction with the
roller blade wheels. Man, that was a scary ride! :) Roller blade and skate
board wheels don't really flex at all, but man, what a difference in top speed!
Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I have been successfully operating with the
understanding that a narrower tire will give a smaller contact patch and
therefore decrease rolling resistance for so long that I have a hard time
believing that contact patch is dependent only on tire pressure and vehicle
mass.
Brian
---- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
=============
>From: Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>CC: Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
>Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:29:05 -0700
>
>A narrower tire will have a smaller contact patch.
No. The area of the contact patch depends only on the load on the wheel,
and the air pressure in the tire.
As a result, the contact patch for a narrow tire is narrower ( side to side)
and longer (front to back) than the contact patch of a wider tire with the
same load and air pressure.
But, the patch area will be the same.
>The smaller the contact patch, the lower the rolling resistance.
I don't follow that reasoning. Even if the contact patch were smaller for
a narrow tire ( and it isn't) , I don't see why the rolling resistance would
be less with a smaller patch. Could you explain why you say that? It's not
the friction between the tire and the road which causes rolling resistance.
It's primarily the energy lost in deforming the tire.
> It's no coincidence that cars like the Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius
have pizza cutters under >them while cars like the Ford mustang and the
Chevy Corvette have rolling pins.
It's certainly true that wider tires are necessary for better cornering
performance, and for better straight-line performance with powerful engines.
But, that doesn't mean the their width alone makes the rolling resistance
higher.
Also, narrower tires are usually lighter weight, cost less, and fit more
easily in a narrow car - other good reasons why high-mileage cars use them.
And, Prius and Insight drivers are not generally looking for the sporty,
aggressive look of wider tires.
>
>As someone else already pointed out though, there is a sweet spot.
>Narrower tires are only better to a point. Go beyond that point, and the
>tires become TOO narrow. If >the tire is too narrow, the tires contact
>patch could conceivably increase from front to back.
>
ANY time you compare two tires with the same load and tire pressure, the
narrower tire will have a longer patch from front to back. ( see above).
There is no "sweet spot" in tire width where the patch suddenly gets longer
as the tire gets narrower. It happens for any reduction in tire width.
>Having a tire that is too harrow could also lead to more side wall flex. If
>the car is always working to >squish the sidewall, then energy is being
>lost.
This statement I understand, because a narrower tire will deflect more for
the same load and pressure. It seems to me that this disadvantage should
apply to all narrower tires.
>In general though, skinnier tires should offer less rolling resistance.
You already said that, but why???
>
>Balancing tire width with the weight of the car is important in racing too.
>I recall one article written by a guy who was racing in NASA's (North
>American Sportscar Association) Factory Five Racing's Ford Cobra spec-racer
>series. Nearly all of the competitors were running the same width tires,
>which was the maximum width allowed. However, one of the drivers was using
>a tire that was a few mm narrower than the rest of the field, and his
>corner exit speeds were great enough that he won the event.
Even if that driver's success were due to the narrower tires, that would
only show that, in this case, the narrower tire performed better, not that
they had lower RR.
>
>When it comes to race cars with big hp, wider tires are better... to a
>point.
>When it comes to efficient cars with low energy density batteries, narrower
>is better... to a point.
Could you explain that? Why is narrower better, and what happens if they
are too narrow that starts the rolling resistance rising again?
Phil Marino
>
>Brian
>
>
>
>- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>=============
>
>
>
> >From: Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >CC: Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires
> >Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:50:39 -0700
> >
> >Phil,
> >
> >The reason I want a narrow tire is that a narrower tire will usually have
>a
> >lower rolling resistance. This assumes that the tire it's being compared
>to
> >is made of the same rubber compound and has the same tread.
>
>
>Brian - why do you think that a narrower tire will have lower rolling
>resistance?
>
>Phil
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Would the car still weigh 2000lbs?
Brian
---- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
=============
> As an example
> > a 7000hp top fuel dragster weighs about 2400lbs a 5000hp electric dragster
> > with the 123 batteries avaible today would weigh at least 4500lbs(2500 in
> > batteries)
I think you have not done the math quite right. A 5000 HP
battery pack made of off-the-shelf A123 systems M1 cells would weigh
just under 2000 lbs. If we use the prototype A123 Systems Ultra
cells, (they exist, but in very small numbers right now) this would
drop to something like 1000 lbs. A 7000 HP pack would weigh about
1400 lbs, leaving 1000 lbs for the motor(s), controller, and rolling
chassis. Not at all impossible, if one's pockets are deep enough.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Imports with interiors don't turn in 10 second runs? Here is my buddy Jarret's
88 Rx7 completing a 10.89 second run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hWIwV4ZPmM
This is Jarret's daily driver. It has a stereo, both seats, etc etc etc. This
is AZ, so the car has AC too. This was a while back and the car is faster now
than it was then. Of course, to go much faster than that, he had to install a
roll bar/cage. I don't think he put all of the interior back when he was done.
It's probably still not all that light though. The 10th AE cars are over
3,000lbs stock.
Electric drag cars are cool no doubt, but import cars are hardly being left
behind.
Brian
---- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
=============
Hello Jim Ludicker and All,
Thanks to Lee Hart for giving me a simple keystroke heads-up that allows
me to read the following:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>if you want to compare
>electric drag vehicles to gas drag vehicles try this............a light
>weight
>import, gutted,lightened,filled with batteries and shish kabob electric
>motors
>(two motors on a stick unroasted hopefully) that has limited range.
>
Jim, it's obvious you've been out of the loop too long (we miss you,
too). It's also obvious you don't go to my readily available web page
where everything about White Zombie is an open book anyone can look at.
If you had, and if you read my many, many posts, you may not have said
the above in regards to my car being 'gutted' and 'lightened'. It's the
exact opposite. I take pride in the fact that I 'have not' gutted the
car or done lightening tricks to the body, so you telling everyone it's
a gutted and lightened car is misinformation.
With the exception of the back seat (to make room for a battery
tray...if we someday get lithium, you can count on the back seat being
reinstalled), the car actually has more interior pieces than stock!
Stock 1200s had no carpets...mine does. Stock 1200s had a thin cardboard
type material on the kick panels...mine is carpeted there, too, My car
still has all of the interior panels in place, the headliner is still
there (though a bit crispy in one spot), and it has both front seats
installed (they are racing types, but with the heavy gauge mounts we
made to accommodate them, they weigh about the same as stock 1200 front
seats weigh. The dash has all its factory stuff, plus extra gauges. The
car's body has not been lightened even one ounce over stock...it has the
factory steel bumpers, all the original steel bodywork, all the original
glass, and it even has an after market glass and steel sunroof that adds
weight over stock, too.
>VS a "street heavy" radio, heater, air cond, seats for four also an import
>and with
>a little tweaking, chip, turbo, trash can exhaust and all real glass windows.
>....pump gas burning smog causing import that will run low 10 and
>high 9 sec in the quarter mile will be about 10 to 15 car lengths ahead at
>the end of the quarter mile (you do the math) and then put 3 people in the
>car
>and drive to Vegas in comfort for lunch, I know, those sob's drive by my
>house every day, with their foot in it..........Those are apples VS apples.
>
Wow Jim, more misinformation! Again, you need to get out more :-)
Portland has a very active import ricer-tuner racing scene. On the
Friday and Saturday night drags Tim and I attend and race at, the
$30,000-$35,000 ~300 hp factory Mitsus and Subes run low 13s (never 12s)
and indeed, can haul four people and have a stereo and air. We kick
their butt badly with a $15,000 street legal electric car. The type of
tweaked imports you describe don't come close to running 10s and
9s...they run high 13s - down to high 12s, not 10s and 9s. The ones that
do run in the low 12s and high 11s are partially gutted and run racing
slicks, and have as much $15,000 dumped into them, making them also,
$30,000 cars....we kick their butts, too. The extremely rare exceptions
that do run 10s and very high 9s are more like how you tried to paint
'my car' as being, that is, they are indeed, gutted with bare painted
steel inside, no passenger seat, no rear seat, no carpet, no door
panels, most all side glass replaced with paper thin Lexan, cheesy
looking wavy fiberglass hoods and fenders, huge track-only wrinkle wall
slicks, and about $40k dumped into them. They do not drive them to the
track and they only arrive on trailers...they are all out racing
machines. They do not have sound system, do not have air conditioning,
and cannot carry any passengers...not even one passenger, and they won't
be taking anyone out for a long drive to lunch. This is a far cry from
my car and it is 'not' apples to apples.
Examples;
A local guy known for his mundane looking Mitsu sedan that has all stock
interior and exterior, is highly regarded by the import tuner freaks,
because he has not done any gutting and lightening of the car, he drives
it to the track, and he only installs drag slicks when he gets to the
track...he runs 12.4 or so and has about $20k invested. We beat him easily.
A young man at one of my accounts came to watch White Zombie run in the
11s at the Wayland Invitational III races. I saw him last week, and he
was quite animated. In front of his fellow young dude warehousemen
friends, he was boasting about my car when I arrived on scene. He went
on all about 'his' hot Honda racer he ran at PIR a few years ago,
telling all how he had made it as light as he could, and how he had
dumped most of his paychecks into the car to make it quicker and
quicker. He said he had about $20,000 in it, and the best ET he ever
turned, was 12.25.
Another local guy has one of the quickest Honda hatches around. It is a
wicked, all black machine! It comes in on a trailer and is not street
legal. It has 11 inch wide wrinkle walls up front and wheelie bars in
back. It has no interior at all, no factory glass except the windshield,
racing carbon fiber hood and fenders, and is a mere shell of a car. The
motor makes about 600 real hp and there's $40k+ invested in the car. He
runs 10 flat, and has to date, not yet run 9s. It is an awesome car to
watch run! If this is the type of car you want to compare to mine and
then call it apples to apples, go ahead, but I don't think anyone else
would agree with you.
Without gutting my car and doing the lightening tricks you claim I've
done to the body, with time to learn how to adjust the power we had on
July 14th with the 175 lb., 1400 amp lithium pack, everyone there (you
were not) knows the car can run 10s just the way it is, and then we'd be
right in the game with the truly gutted and major-modified imports you
speak of, even though White Zombie is not at all set up the same way.
'If' I wanted to (I do not), I could gut the car, tub and flare the
wheel wells, install big for-real wrinkle wall slicks, install a four
link rear end, and get sponsored with twin 200 lb. lithium packs, then
put both of my Zilla Z2ks in the car, wire one up to each motor section,
do away with series-parallel shifting and the .3 second loss of power
during the transition, and supply 1700 amps from each pack into each
Zilla! The car would only weigh 2100-2150 lbs. and would make a real
450-500 hp! I imagine low 10's-high 9s would be the result. That, my
friend, is apples to apples, and we'd probably beat all contenders from
the gasser import world!
Instead, I prefer making my case to the world of how fun a fully street
legal, very drivable EV can be. I get lots of comments of how the car
'is not' gutted and how it's not a racing-only type of car, and that is
exactly what designing, improving, and racing the world's quickest
accelerating street legal electric car is all about. If we ever do get
lucky enough to have stout lithiums supplied to us, the twin Zilla -
twin pack thing might happen, but there would still be no gutting of the
car and it would still be ran in PS (Pro Street) to promote street legal
EVs. In fact, if lithiums do come our way, one of the first mods to the
car will be a back seat reinstalled and a signature Wayland sound system!
I'll leave it to Rod Wilde to run a full racing type street-bodied EV,
when Maniac Mazda returns. Now this, is a gutted and fully racing type
electric. It's an MC (Modified Conversion) class racer, and it ran an 11
flat years ago. All he has to do, is power it up with lithiums and do
some other update type mods, and the car will probably run low 10s -
high 9s.
>...talk is cheap, bring it to the race track.
Tim and I do, every chance we get! Perhaps you should get off the couch
and take your own advice? We'd love to have you back.
See Ya.....John Wayland
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lets not forget that while EVs are getting faster, IC cars are getting faster
too. Heck, a late model V6 Accord has as much horse power as a mid/early 80's
Corvette. New IC cars aren't getting any slower.
Brian
---- Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
=============
Hi Folks
I tend to agree with Chip's take on this subject though I also think some of
us may be taking the comments of a reporter who obviously knows very little
about drag racing much too seriously.
The NHRA has been around for well over 50 years, NEDRA has existed for ten
years.
The folks at the NHRA are certainly stuck in their belief systems and won't
be accepting any kind of major paradigm shift until it slaps them in the
face.
I believe that EV racers are catching up by leaps and bounds and that the
ICE racers aren't going to know what hit them till it is over and done with.
Especially as far as street-driven vehicles are concerned. I think that with
the right EV component set, ICE folks are already at a disadvantage from
stoplight to stoplight. This has already been proven over and over. Max
torque at -0- RPM
ICE drag racing is a -very- mature technology, there are not going to be any
-major- leaps like EV drag racing. [IIRC, pro-stock competitors are within a
couple thousandths of a second of each other, not to mention top fuel and
funny cars]
We have no idea what the near future may bring. Who knows, we may pull our
electricity from the ether like Nikola Tesla :^D
Seriously, just look at the rapid advancements that backyard builders with
little money are doing.
If folks were to throw millions of dollars at EV drag racing I have a
feeling that it would advance exponentially almost overnight.
I would betcha that if someone that could afford it thought they could beat
nitromethane burning vehicles in the 1/4 mile with battery electric vehicles
the money would appear and the vehicles would be built.
I know that all it takes to interest folks in hot EVs is to get Joe
Sixpack/NASCAR dads in the driver's [or passenger's] seat. I have driven the
White Zombie and Gone Postal. Once you have experienced the brute torque an
electric drag racin' vehicle can provide you will never look back.
This is after more than 20 years experience as an ICE mechanic and
hot-rodder.
And... you can go get the groceries in the Zombie or Gone Postal in almost
total silence with the manners of a Cadillac and no one will ever know of
the inherent capabilities of these vehicles until they see you pulling away
from them like a shot out of a cannon [just in case some missed this fact,
the the KillaCycle posted the quickest 60' time -ever recorded- at PIR. Yes,
I know, it is not a street-legal vehicle, though if you dressed it up like
one you could still get the groceries with it and no one would have a clue
as to the capabilities]
NEDRA invites all EVers and EVs to come to the 10th Anniversary NEDRA
Nationals at Portland International Raceway on August 17 and 18. It is
shaping up to be our biggest EVent ever with more competitors in one place
than ever before.
More info in the near future here on the EVDL.
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA Northwest Regional Director
www.nedra.com
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