EV Digest 7092
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Define EV ! Was:Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: A123 chemistry
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Battery question
by "Freddie Hartsell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: E-dragsters go for gas-powered records
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Insurance
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Define EV ! Was:Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: E-dragsters go for gas-powered records
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Jukkas toy bus .. was:Re: A123 chemistry
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Tweety went swimming!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Insurance
by David Wilker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Define EV ! Was:Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Insurance
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Insurance
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Metric splined shaft coupler for Siemens motor
by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Jukkas toy bus .. was:Re: A123 chemistry
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Trying again
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Tweety went swimming!!
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Tweety went swimming!!
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Which type
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Trying again
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Trying again
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
There's a place for a survey again :)
I have defined a vehicle as EV when they use 100% electric drivetrain
and can be charged with electricity from most outlets out there. It has
to eat electrons.
Fool cells can be done to do that but I have no record if such vehicles
exist and have been sold. Such type of vehicle would be EV for me.
Hydrogen is a energy media. As are Lions and SLAs.
I think the EV has been defined already in mid 19th century. Fool cells
were not there by then (I think).
Fool cells are fool cells.. that's it. Required efficiency is not there.
And will never be... (WKTEC => Mechanical rabbit..)
-Jukka
Zeke Yewdall kirjoitti:
Well, the way I classify it, the whole purpose of an electric vehicle
is to be able to refuel it on site without importing power (I have a
PV array, so I do not have to import electricity)
Hybrid electrics, I cannot fill up with electricity -- so though they
may technically be electric, but don't meet my criteria for WHY to
have an electric. If you make a plug in hybrid, then yes it is (as
long as I can run it without putting gas in it almost all the time).
If I can generate hydrogen on site with my electricity, and use it as
the energy carrier, instead of batteries, then I'm fine with that (the
only problem is that the round trip efficiency of this is pretty bad
compared to batteries). If I have to buy hydrogen that is made from
reformed natural gas.... that defeats the purpose.
For racing purposes, I'd say whether it is an electric vehicle could
be a bit broader -- because yes, people do charge them from an ICE
generate before the race sometimes. But there I'm more concerned with
drivetrain details than fuel per se, I guess.
Indecisive...
Z
On 7/31/07, MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hydrogen is not a fuel. It IS an energy carrier, or storage medium much as a
battery or capacitor.. If the electrons from the storage medium power an
electric motor, then technically it IS an EV.
Maybe we could rename our group the BEVDL, or Battery Electric Vehicle
Discussion List and limit our arguments to what batteries get the best
performance, or how to maintain them better. It seems you are now the one
with the closed mind, and blindly following the mantra of if its not batteries
its not electric, yada yada yada. I'm not one to favour the hydrogen hype
because it is such an inefficient form of energy storage. However to stay
technically correct, but not argue for that side, I would say the Fuel Cell
powered vehicle are EV's if they power electric motors.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:39 am
Subject: Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle? I don't see a gas
engine> of any type on there. A fuel cell generates ELECTRICITY
and the primary
drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor. Just because the fuel is
hydrogen> doesn't mean it is not electric. They are just making it
aboard instead
of charging it externally.
The hydrogen fuel voids its status as electric in my book. I would
say
that a strict EV must be powered by an electrical storage such as
battery or capacitor. if you allow generators such as fuel cells
you
also allow types like the prius which is a gas car with an electric
clutch. this is a fuel cell car. hydrogen-electric if you will.
like
diesel-electric trains.
another way to define an EV might be to require refueling by an
electrical connection. again this one would fail that.
when we are debating victory criteria with ICE people then
everything is
an electric car of course : ) but this is a hydrogen car. not an EV.
I would be surprised if the record people will allow it as a pure
EV.
not that batteries couldn't beat it anyway
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's good. Of course you have to think about calendar life as well.
What do you use that huge bus for???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: A123 chemistry
They give 100% DOD cycles out (from 2V to 4,3V) over 1000. In my case I
can expect at least 700 000 km (430 000 miles) on the Bus batteries
(before less than 60% 0f original capacity). :) I rarely drive more than
100 km a day with the bus "green moster" (
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1009 ).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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* This post contains a forbidden message format *
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike and all,
I just received a message from Aaron Clark. Actually he sent it over
the weekend.
********
Chip,
Hey, my article came out today. Just search under my name "Aaron
Clark" and "electric" on Google News and you'll get your choice of
about 100 sites that have picked it up.
Cheers,
-Aaron
PS: If you can let Wayland know that would be great...can't find his
email. Also, in the future if you ever need to contact me please use
this Gmail instead of the AP one I emailed you from before. Thanks!
********
Aaron and you are right. It's all over the place. I read the one that
was in USA Today. And a friend said he saw it in the Washington Post
"Express" paper that is free at the DC Subway stations.
Chip
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
On Jul 31, 2007, at 6:43 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: July 31, 2007 3:36:26 PM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: E-dragsters go for gas-powered records
This is so big :-O
Do a Google search for "E-dragsters go for gas-powered records" and
see how many places are posting this.
I cycled through 10 + Google search pages (and then quit) and EVERY
hit was to this article on someone's site.
Talk about coverage ;-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Insurance
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:30:28 -0600
With my EV, I have a advantage. I had it re title and name it Electro.
The
sister car, another EV I have is call Transformer I and even has a
different
VIN number which was a re manufacture GM B body. These were selling for
$52,000.00 back in 1977, but I got my for a reduce cost because it was one
of the proto types that road tested for about 1/2 a year before I received
it.
Ohhh, that car salesman layed a doosy on you Roland. You find me the people
that spent $52K in 1977 for those other electric cars :-) I hate to be the
one to give you the bad news, but the silver tounged salesman only made it
seem like a bargain...
damon
_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not debating that the efficiency of using Hydrogen as an energy carrier is
even near being economical, because its not. But then again using Duracel 'D'
size Copper Top primary cells is not either but if someone was so inclined to
build a one time only use electric dragster with Duracel batteries, it would
certainly be defined as an EV, no?
You can put "electricity" as you call it, into hydrogen too just by plugging an
electrolyzer into the grid and cracking water. Basic definition of a charger,
no? Not at all efficient. But plug into the grid charging? Yes.
Zeke's point about "importing" electricity is symantics. Charging batteries,
or electrocuting water from PV panels or from the grid (charging in either
case, no?) still requires the importing of Energy. It just so happens that the
delivery from the sun is free, you'll have to pay for it to come to you on
wires.
Who says there is no Free energy? It hits you on the top of the head every
day.
(Some a little harder than others, for us bald guys)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:06 pm
Subject: Define EV ! Was:Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> There's a place for a survey again :)
>
> I have defined a vehicle as EV when they use 100% electric
> drivetrain
> and can be charged with electricity from most outlets out there. It
> has
> to eat electrons.
>
> Fool cells can be done to do that but I have no record if such
> vehicles
> exist and have been sold. Such type of vehicle would be EV for me.
>
> Hydrogen is a energy media. As are Lions and SLAs.
>
> I think the EV has been defined already in mid 19th century. Fool
> cells
> were not there by then (I think).
>
> Fool cells are fool cells.. that's it. Required efficiency is not
> there.
> And will never be... (WKTEC => Mechanical rabbit..)
>
> -Jukka
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's more than 100 sites that have picked it up now :-O
Also, Aaron gave me his card with a newer valid Cell number on it too, if you
(or John) needs to correct any of his grammar ;-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:34 pm
Subject: Re: E-dragsters go for gas-powered records
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Hi Mike and all,
>
> I just received a message from Aaron Clark. Actually he sent it
> over
> the weekend.
>
> ********
> Chip,
> Hey, my article came out today. Just search under my name "Aaron
> Clark" and "electric" on Google News and you'll get your choice of
>
> about 100 sites that have picked it up.
> Cheers,
> -Aaron
> PS: If you can let Wayland know that would be great...can't find
> his
> email. Also, in the future if you ever need to contact me please
> use
> this Gmail instead of the AP one I emailed you from before. Thanks!
> ********
>
> Aaron and you are right. It's all over the place. I read the one
> that
> was in USA Today. And a friend said he saw it in the Washington
> Post
> "Express" paper that is free at the DC Subway stations.
>
> Chip
> NEDRA
> http://www.nedra.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For commuting :)
I do all my daily driving with it. It has seriously tuned drive train.
30 kWh for 100 km. For a 14000 lbs BUS !
Calendar life will be seen. These cells were installed in early 2006.
(February) And used since. No degration on capacity yet. I mean NONE.
All 350 Ampere Horses are there. One cell has bad attitude but I'm
teaching it all the time with CCS.
There are 2 more of these buses and we are going to use them for show
casing the Lithium battery system in daily city traffic. System is ready
but I wan't to tune it still to be even more better.
I was hoping to transform this bus to mobile home some day. Add 1200 Ah
LiCos and Sauna.. of course !
-Jukka
Dmitri kirjoitti:
That's good. Of course you have to think about calendar life as well.
What do you use that huge bus for???
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jukka Järvinen"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: A123 chemistry
They give 100% DOD cycles out (from 2V to 4,3V) over 1000. In my case
I can expect at least 700 000 km (430 000 miles) on the Bus batteries
(before less than 60% 0f original capacity). :) I rarely drive more
than 100 km a day with the bus "green moster" (
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1009 ).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jim. No problem pulling the motor except time!!
My commute has a five mile stretch that is a 50 MPH zone that I usually
cruise along between 65 and 70... oops, never mind that - well except that it
spins near 5600 RPM for about half my commute. The last few days have been in
the
mid to upper 90's so I suspect it is probably dry by now??
Anyway, as soon as I get some time I will pull the motor and check it out. I
have already checked everything else - pulled all the batteries and checked
all the wiring and connections. Tweety's battery compartments have good
drainage! Nothing in the controller compartment got wet at all.
Another concern is both battery compartment's have muffin fans which were
submerged. Both are now dry and work fine, but I know they are not water
proof!
Will keep an eye on them. Also need to check the wheel bearings! Soo much
to do - no time!! Grrr. Ever have that feeling? :)
Ken
In a message dated 7/31/2007 11:50:40 AM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Snip, Snip>>
Just to recap, if this were my motor, I'd pull it and
pull the armature / DE plate assy out and blow the
motor out and make sure it as dry as you can get it.
If this is not an option please feel free to grab some
pics as time goes by and I'll offer an eye for you so
that you don't run into a really bad scenario.
Hopefully the motors heat helped to dry it out well
enough to prevent the moisture from remaining, heck
maybe, just maybe you got a free motor cleaning out of
it 8^o
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Didn't Marty Robbins have one of those? I remember a photo of him in a
mid-to-late 70's GM A body 2 door with the quarter windows filled in, and a
caption explaining it was an electric car.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
---- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Insurance
>Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:30:28 -0600
>
>With my EV, I have a advantage. I had it re title and name it Electro.
>The
>sister car, another EV I have is call Transformer I and even has a
>different
>VIN number which was a re manufacture GM B body. These were selling for
>$52,000.00 back in 1977, but I got my for a reduce cost because it was one
>of the proto types that road tested for about 1/2 a year before I received
>it.
Ohhh, that car salesman layed a doosy on you Roland. You find me the people
that spent $52K in 1977 for those other electric cars :-) I hate to be the
one to give you the bad news, but the silver tounged salesman only made it
seem like a bargain...
damon
_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike, I agree with the substance of your post (below) but I
had to email you off-list because of your usage of the word
"semantics". I've lately been distressed by people using the word in
the way you have here and made it a personal crusade to try to get
them to stop.
AFAIK no meaning of the word "semantics" (which is, somewhat
ironically, an intellectual discipline having to do with the meanings
of words and their context, or the "meaning of meaning" as Alfred
Korzybski put it) is applicable to the sense in which you use it here
of 'a spurious argument to support one's proposition'. The word you
may or may not be looking for is "sophistry".
I don't mean to be pedantic or otherwise a pain in the ass, but
sometimes I just gotta say something...
On 7/31/07, MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not debating that the efficiency of using Hydrogen as an energy carrier
> is even near being economical, because its not. But then again using Duracel
> 'D' size Copper Top primary cells is not either but if someone was so
> inclined to build a one time only use electric dragster with Duracel
> batteries, it would certainly be defined as an EV, no?
>
> You can put "electricity" as you call it, into hydrogen too just by plugging
> an electrolyzer into the grid and cracking water. Basic definition of a
> charger, no? Not at all efficient. But plug into the grid charging? Yes.
>
> Zeke's point about "importing" electricity is symantics. Charging batteries,
> or electrocuting water from PV panels or from the grid (charging in either
> case, no?) still requires the importing of Energy. It just so happens that
> the delivery from the sun is free, you'll have to pay for it to come to you
> on wires.
>
> Who says there is no Free energy? It hits you on the top of the head every
> day.
> (Some a little harder than others, for us bald guys)
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:06 pm
> Subject: Define EV ! Was:Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
> > There's a place for a survey again :)
> >
> > I have defined a vehicle as EV when they use 100% electric
> > drivetrain
> > and can be charged with electricity from most outlets out there. It
> > has
> > to eat electrons.
> >
> > Fool cells can be done to do that but I have no record if such
> > vehicles
> > exist and have been sold. Such type of vehicle would be EV for me.
> >
> > Hydrogen is a energy media. As are Lions and SLAs.
> >
> > I think the EV has been defined already in mid 19th century. Fool
> > cells
> > were not there by then (I think).
> >
> > Fool cells are fool cells.. that's it. Required efficiency is not
> > there.
> > And will never be... (WKTEC => Mechanical rabbit..)
> >
> > -Jukka
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I said reduce price, it was at $9500.00. It actual cost the company in
making only six proto types of this one model about $43,500.00 each. This
is the cost of special design motor controllers sub contracted to the
Cableform company which cost them about $6000.00 each. The traction motor
was subcontracted to GE which includes a motor coupler and adapter plate to
fit any GM transmission and motor mounts on the side, that accepts GM engine
mounts. Which cost over $5000.00 to them. The batteries 300 AH cobalt cells
cost about $100.00 each which comes to $3000.00.
Should I go on?
The heat sinks for the controllers are machine tool aluminum plates that are
2 inches thick and about 2 square feet, which are use in a press pack for
the triacs. These cost about $2000.00 to make, because I contacted the
CableForm company for a spare part kits that cost $3500.00.
The battery boxes which are about 4-feet square with covers are made out of
1/4 inch thick aluminum plates, which was all welded together by the
Creative Industrial Company in Detroit which is a customizer of vehicles.
They also extended the front of the car 12 inches and form a new front end
for the vehicle. They also did the custom dash which holds instrument hinge
plates for the instruments.
The battery charger is 100 amp rated that can be plug into 2 or 3 phase 250
volts delta, 208 volt 2 or 3 phase and 120 volt single phase. At my home I
could only use the 250/125 volts single phase at maximum of 50 amps.
All the mechanical, transmissions, suspension, axles were all modified.
Special tires by Good Year with the correct tire deflection, and maximum
load at PSE was use.
I know exactly what I was paying for, because I did the research on the
products use in this vehicle. I won award the car on a bid of $9600.00 over
other people that bid at $25,000.00. This company knew my work, and knew I
could maintain this vehicle for the last 32 years.
I had a brother that work in the GM Plants and Managers Systems. This is
the normal bid for the first hand built proto types which they may make a
run of about 80 cars for testing. I had a chance to bid on a Ford GT-40
which cost $18,000 in 1960. It went for $8000.00 after it was race by the
Ford racing team and today it is worth over $1,000.000.00.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: Insurance
> >From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Insurance
> >Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:30:28 -0600
> >
> >With my EV, I have a advantage. I had it re title and name it Electro.
> >The
> >sister car, another EV I have is call Transformer I and even has a
> >different
> >VIN number which was a re manufacture GM B body. These were selling for
> >$52,000.00 back in 1977, but I got my for a reduce cost because it was
> >one
> >of the proto types that road tested for about 1/2 a year before I
> >received
> >it.
>
> Ohhh, that car salesman layed a doosy on you Roland. You find me the
> people
> that spent $52K in 1977 for those other electric cars :-) I hate to be
> the
> one to give you the bad news, but the silver tounged salesman only made it
> seem like a bargain...
>
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> http://liveearth.msn.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was only six persons that received this model vehicle which included
me. I was the only technician out of the group that was able to maintain
this vehicle. There was one actor that got one which is store away in his
collections and one person in London and of course one by the owner at the
Electric Fuel Propulsion Company at that time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Insurance
> Didn't Marty Robbins have one of those? I remember a photo of him in a
> mid-to-late 70's GM A body 2 door with the quarter windows filled in, and
> a caption explaining it was an electric car.
>
>
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
>
> ---- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Insurance
> >Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:30:28 -0600
> >
> >With my EV, I have a advantage. I had it re title and name it Electro.
> >The
> >sister car, another EV I have is call Transformer I and even has a
> >different
> >VIN number which was a re manufacture GM B body. These were selling for
> >$52,000.00 back in 1977, but I got my for a reduce cost because it was
> >one
> >of the proto types that road tested for about 1/2 a year before I
> >received
> >it.
>
> Ohhh, that car salesman layed a doosy on you Roland. You find me the
> people
> that spent $52K in 1977 for those other electric cars :-) I hate to be
> the
> one to give you the bad news, but the silver tounged salesman only made it
> seem like a bargain...
>
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> http://liveearth.msn.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know where to get a metric splined shaft coupler to fit a
Siemens motor shaft?
My machinist is having a hard time finding something.
Thanks,
--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A bus?? :)
I gotta ask, who's funding you in all this?
Is the BMW for you or a customer?
did you get it without the motor oem from BMW?
Dan
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
For commuting :)
I do all my daily driving with it. It has seriously tuned drive train.
30 kWh for 100 km. For a 14000 lbs BUS !
Calendar life will be seen. These cells were installed in early 2006.
(February) And used since. No degration on capacity yet. I mean NONE.
All 350 Ampere Horses are there. One cell has bad attitude but I'm
teaching it all the time with CCS.
There are 2 more of these buses and we are going to use them for show
casing the Lithium battery system in daily city traffic. System is
ready but I wan't to tune it still to be even more better.
I was hoping to transform this bus to mobile home some day. Add 1200
Ah LiCos and Sauna.. of course !
-Jukka
Dmitri kirjoitti:
That's good. Of course you have to think about calendar life as well.
What do you use that huge bus for???
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jukka Järvinen"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: A123 chemistry
They give 100% DOD cycles out (from 2V to 4,3V) over 1000. In my
case I can expect at least 700 000 km (430 000 miles) on the Bus
batteries (before less than 60% 0f original capacity). :) I rarely
drive more than 100 km a day with the bus "green moster" (
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1009 ).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Upp sent this to the wrong address last time.. Better late
Roland wrote
> > > Motors are inductive loads, where the ampere will rise with increase
> > > voltage
> > >
> > > Unlike resistance loads as a heater, where if you have a 240 v heater
> > > Element at 8 amps, it will become 4 amps at 120 v.
> > >
> > > A motor that it windings are rated for 240 v may use 10 amps where A
Motor
> > > Has its windings rated for 120 V may use 20 amps for the same hp. But
> > > using
> > > Different voltages on the same windings rated for some other voltage
The
> > > Ampere may increase as follows:
> > >
> > > Here is the results of a 180 VDC motor test I did using different
Voltages
> > > At no load:
> > >
> > > Battery Pack Actual Volts Amperes Rpm
> > >
> > > 12 12.6 5 634
> > > 18 18.9 6 1013
> > > 24 25.4 6.2 1390
> > > 30 31.8 6.4 1773
> > > 36 37.8 6.6 2143
> > > 42 44.5 6.8 2521
> > > 48 51.2 7.0 2985
> > > 54 57.5 7.5 3270
> > > 60 63.7 8 3715
> > >
> > > There is a maximum voltage and ampere rating you can go over on a
Motor.
> > > This is call the Service Factor (SF). If 115V motor has a rated SF of
115%
> > > And the motor has a ampere rating of 200 ampere for continuous running
> > > then
> > >
> > > 200A x 1.15 = 230 amps. The 115V motor can run on 115V x 1.15 = 132.25
V.
> > >
> > > On the label for the motor, there should be a Service Factor which may
Say
> > > SF 1.25 for a DC motor. I don't why the ADC and Warp motors do not
Have
> > > Motor label that list the specifications of the motor.
> > >
> > > My General Electric motor does. It list the DC motor as 165 volts at
175
> > > Amps at 32 HP with a SF of 1.25 meaning the over voltage can be about
208
> > > Volts and the over ampere can be 218 amperes continuous.
> > >
> > > Roland
Therefore what I need to know is .
If I chooses to go with 72 volts on my 30volt rated motor hoping to use less
Than half the amps to do the same job .. Will that really be what I get??
According to the above maybe not..
However..
Am I missing that some controllers actually decrease and control the
Actually amps delivered to the motor?
As I was told earlier here . They don't change the amount of amps .. Just
That amount of time that the amps are applied to the motor.. Or are some
Controllers different in that since.. ..
So if I understand what I am herring.. Then also if the actually amps are
Not changed .. If I open my controller up full to achive max speed the
Amount of amps will not be decreased and my poor motor will die If the amps
Raise and double when I raise the volts that I am considering to make my car
With 72 instead do 30volts..
Tanks Mitchell
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 31, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Jim Husted wrote:
Here's my take on this type of issue. First off, I
use a soap and water parts washer (a lot easier on
enviroment and me 8^) but I also bake the parts out in
my industrial oven to quickly remove all the water.
Well I'd certainly listen to Jim before me but I don't see a problem
with a good dunking. The reality of driving an EV in the winter in
the north west can't be much better <g>.
I actually wash my Prestolite motor out every couple of years. I use
clean soapy water and pour it over the brush area while I run the
motor in neutral. Then I run it while I spray the garden hose inside
(the pot box is within reach.) The fan effectively removes a large
percentage of the water (I look like I tried to take a bath with my
clothes on.) After that I take it for a drive in 3rd gear to warm up
the motor. I've done this 4 times over the last 8 years to keep the
motor pretty to look at :-)
Of course its entirely possible that Jim is gonna spank me now <LMAO>
Paul Gooch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken,
When I installed a Zilla in a Sparrow several years
ago I took the liberty of taking apart the Zilla and
took several pictures (sorry Dan, they are for my
personal design interest). The Zilla 1K I took apart
did not have any seals against water intrusion.
Hopefully water did not get into the access door and
flood the Zilla, but if it did I would be concerned
about problems down the road. If you think water
flooded the controller I would contact Otmar and get
some suggestions on how to prevent future problems.
Good luck, hopefully you won't have any problems down
the road!
Rod
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Thanks Jim. No problem pulling the motor except
> time!!
>
> My commute has a five mile stretch that is a 50 MPH
> zone that I usually
> cruise along between 65 and 70... oops, never mind
> that - well except that it
> spins near 5600 RPM for about half my commute. The
> last few days have been in the
> mid to upper 90's so I suspect it is probably dry by
> now??
>
> Anyway, as soon as I get some time I will pull the
> motor and check it out. I
> have already checked everything else - pulled all
> the batteries and checked
> all the wiring and connections. Tweety's battery
> compartments have good
> drainage! Nothing in the controller compartment got
> wet at all.
>
> Another concern is both battery compartment's have
> muffin fans which were
> submerged. Both are now dry and work fine, but I
> know they are not water proof!
> Will keep an eye on them. Also need to check the
> wheel bearings! Soo much
> to do - no time!! Grrr. Ever have that feeling?
> :)
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/31/2007 11:50:40 AM Central
> Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Snip, Snip>>
> Just to recap, if this were my motor, I'd pull it
> and
> pull the armature / DE plate assy out and blow the
> motor out and make sure it as dry as you can get it.
>
> If this is not an option please feel free to grab
> some
> pics as time goes by and I'll offer an eye for you
> so
> that you don't run into a really bad scenario.
> Hopefully the motors heat helped to dry it out well
> enough to prevent the moisture from remaining, heck
> maybe, just maybe you got a free motor cleaning out
> of
> it 8^o
>
> Hope this helps
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak
> peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well if current means amps to you then great.. I have been wondering.. About
the different type of controllers.
As for the field.. Not sure what you mean.. The same contacts that your
power is connected to on the motor or
Is it a different contact point..??
Is the discharge rate the same on the 24 volts as your main power sorce or
do you use a dc to dc converter.
Mitchell
From: Michael Barkley
Date: 7/31/2007 8:19:16 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Type to use?
The reason I power my FIELD wiring separately from the
ARMATURE, is so that I have enough torque to start the
Car from a deadstop at an incline. When I powered the
Field and the armature all through the controller, the
Field was being pulsed just as the armature was, and
My controller was going into current overload and
Shuting down. It worked ok from flat terrain, but you
Give it just a little slope or a rock in the road, and
It would not move. So when it was suggested I power
The field with a separate power pack, and just use the
Controller to operate the armature with, it worked out
Great. All I needed on the FIELD is 24vdc, and now
Can shoot a 72+ power pack through the controller for
The armature of the motor. This setup is working out
Great on my car, which is a pretty big vehicle for an
Aircraft generator to push. I'm using an inline air
Blower to force cool air into the motor for cooling
Purposes also, maintaining around 170F at it's highest
Temp, with the ambient outside air temp being 98F or
Slightly higher at times.
You can limit your current in the programming of the
ALLTRAX controllers also.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey Jim, I pretty much agree with you on this. If
> in doubt advance. When
> you mention high voltage you do not mention
> parameters. High voltage is a
> very nebulous term. When I was first involved with
> EVs I would say that 120
> volts was high voltage.
Hey Rod, all
There lies the problem when trying to address proper
advancement or EVen proper motor sizing needs as those
parameters are almost never the same from one user to
the next. It's really like one big electric grab bag
or box of chocolates with just about EVery flavor one
could imagine. With that said it gets tough trying to
generalize without leaving someone out of the equation
or EVen worse down a wrong path. I also try to not bog
down the list with novella length postings 8^)
> Advanced DC motors used to
> come with three sets of
> holes, one neutral, one advanced about seven degrees
> and one for clockwise
> rotation.
They still do on the 8's and 9's (at least the ones
I've seen. The ADC 8's are almost a mirror image to
the their 9's as to the differences in degrees for
opposite rotation. While the eight's are set 10
degrees for CCWDE and about half as much for CWDE the
9's are set at 10 for CWDE and only about half that
for CCWDE. Both advances will get you the same RPM
and power output. The Warp 9's are set at 12.5
degrees in both direction which throws another twist
into the mix and shows how different motors are
affected differently.
Added to this, is my belief that all electric motors
(okay well at least the DC ones) are female 8^) and
they all have their own (lets call it personality) 8^o
I mean EVen you racers don't have flashovers all that
often these days and I've often pondered if it was
some form of motor PMS, LMAO!!! No different than
when you want to go race but the ol' lady gets pissy
and says "I SAID YOU AIN"T RACING TONIGHT" and shoots
you that plasma bolt stare 8^( Few if any of the ones
I've seen have offered any real data as to why it
decided to pitch a fit on that occassion while
normally EVerythings good, other than it just decided
to be a bitch and wreck a good time 8^o (just kidding
now, no female hate mail)8^)
In two years John and Tim have only had two major
flashovers (at least major ones needing attention)
over who knows how many times it got throttled. The
only common thing that I noticed was that on both
occasions Woodburn and again last March was that both
times it was with a brand new battery pack. Not sure
how it fits in but something I noticed.
Anyway I'm just standing on the backs of all you guys
who got us here and trying to see how much more we can
squeeze out of them and guilty of having a little fun
as I'm doing it. Sorry about the cleats BTW, LMAO!
8^P
Got to run
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The motor controller like I have, a Zilla, the battery ampere may be 50 amps
at 180 volts or 50 x 180 = 9000 watts. The motor ampere is at 200 amps at
45 volts or still 9000 watts.
So your 30 volt motor may have a 400 motor amp load at 30 motor volt which
is about 12000 watts would be about 90 battery volts at about 130 battery
amps on a 96 volt battery pack if you program the controller for the maximum
voltage you want.
The 12000 motor watts could be the full load required for acceleration or
hill climbing. During cruse it could be 1/2 of that.
A 72 volt battery pack, the motor volts may go to 24 volts and the motor
ampere will go to 12000/24 = 500 amps at maximum load. The battery voltage
may be 65 volts at 12000/65 = 185 battery amps.
If you apply a full 72 volt to the motor, the motor ampere could be 12000/72
= 166 motor amps, that is at the same 12kw rating. The only limitation is
the maximum voltage and ampere rating of the controller.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:22 PM
Subject: Trying again
> Upp sent this to the wrong address last time.. Better late
>
> Roland wrote
> > > > Motors are inductive loads, where the ampere will rise with increase
> > > > voltage
> > > >
> > > > Unlike resistance loads as a heater, where if you have a 240 v
> > > > heater
> > > > Element at 8 amps, it will become 4 amps at 120 v.
> > > >
> > > > A motor that it windings are rated for 240 v may use 10 amps where A
> Motor
> > > > Has its windings rated for 120 V may use 20 amps for the same hp.
> > > > But
> > > > using
> > > > Different voltages on the same windings rated for some other voltage
> The
> > > > Ampere may increase as follows:
> > > >
> > > > Here is the results of a 180 VDC motor test I did using different
> Voltages
> > > > At no load:
> > > >
> > > > Battery Pack Actual Volts Amperes Rpm
> > > >
> > > > 12 12.6 5 634
> > > > 18 18.9 6 1013
> > > > 24 25.4 6.2 1390
> > > > 30 31.8 6.4 1773
> > > > 36 37.8 6.6 2143
> > > > 42 44.5 6.8 2521
> > > > 48 51.2 7.0 2985
> > > > 54 57.5 7.5 3270
> > > > 60 63.7 8 3715
> > > >
> > > > There is a maximum voltage and ampere rating you can go over on a
> Motor.
> > > > This is call the Service Factor (SF). If 115V motor has a rated SF
> > > > of
> 115%
> > > > And the motor has a ampere rating of 200 ampere for continuous
> > > > running
>
>
> > > > then
> > > >
> > > > 200A x 1.15 = 230 amps. The 115V motor can run on 115V x 1.15 =
> > > > 132.25
>
> V.
> > > >
> > > > On the label for the motor, there should be a Service Factor which
> > > > may
>
> Say
> > > > SF 1.25 for a DC motor. I don't why the ADC and Warp motors do not
> Have
> > > > Motor label that list the specifications of the motor.
> > > >
> > > > My General Electric motor does. It list the DC motor as 165 volts at
> 175
> > > > Amps at 32 HP with a SF of 1.25 meaning the over voltage can be
> > > > about
> 208
> > > > Volts and the over ampere can be 218 amperes continuous.
> > > >
> > > > Roland
>
> Therefore what I need to know is .
> If I chooses to go with 72 volts on my 30volt rated motor hoping to use
> less
>
> Than half the amps to do the same job .. Will that really be what I get??
> According to the above maybe not..
>
> However..
>
> Am I missing that some controllers actually decrease and control the
> Actually amps delivered to the motor?
> As I was told earlier here . They don't change the amount of amps .. Just
> That amount of time that the amps are applied to the motor.. Or are some
> Controllers different in that since.. ..
> So if I understand what I am herring.. Then also if the actually amps are
> Not changed .. If I open my controller up full to achive max speed the
> Amount of amps will not be decreased and my poor motor will die If the
> amps
> Raise and double when I raise the volts that I am considering to make my
> car
>
> With 72 instead do 30volts..
>
> Tanks Mitchell
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless I'm mistaken, standard motor controllers will not work very
well with a shunt or sepex motor (like an aircraft generator
essentially is), unless you use a separate power supply for the field.
I'm not sure exactly what yours is like, but it should have four
terminals on it, not just two like a typical series motor. My big GE
sepex motor has four -- two for the field and two for the armature.
The options as I understand them are --
1) use a controller made for a sepex motor
http://www.electrofit-zapi.com/hfcontsepex.htm the Sem3 for 96 volts
400 amps might be useful for you.... These apply full field voltage,
while chopping the armature voltage, then when armature voltage
reaches 100%, they start chopping the field voltage to increase the
RPM's that way. I have been unable to find any controllers rated at
higher than 96 volts 400amps though. And I want about 120 to 144
volts and around 600 amps for mine.
2) Use a fixed field voltage of much lower than the armature voltage,
and use a conventional chopper controller on the armature -- sounds
like that's working out pretty well for Michael's.
3) Apply full armature voltage, and full field voltage to start with
(and use a clutch, probably), and then slowly reduce field voltage to
increase motor RPMs. This is what I think I'll do with mine to begin
with -- the previous owner of the motor said it worked well for him.
If it doesn't work out, I'll switch to 2).
Z
On 7/31/07, Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Upp sent this to the wrong address last time.. Better late
>
> Roland wrote
> > > > Motors are inductive loads, where the ampere will rise with increase
> > > > voltage
> > > >
> > > > Unlike resistance loads as a heater, where if you have a 240 v heater
> > > > Element at 8 amps, it will become 4 amps at 120 v.
> > > >
> > > > A motor that it windings are rated for 240 v may use 10 amps where A
> Motor
> > > > Has its windings rated for 120 V may use 20 amps for the same hp. But
> > > > using
> > > > Different voltages on the same windings rated for some other voltage
> The
> > > > Ampere may increase as follows:
> > > >
> > > > Here is the results of a 180 VDC motor test I did using different
> Voltages
> > > > At no load:
> > > >
> > > > Battery Pack Actual Volts Amperes Rpm
> > > >
> > > > 12 12.6 5 634
> > > > 18 18.9 6 1013
> > > > 24 25.4 6.2 1390
> > > > 30 31.8 6.4 1773
> > > > 36 37.8 6.6 2143
> > > > 42 44.5 6.8 2521
> > > > 48 51.2 7.0 2985
> > > > 54 57.5 7.5 3270
> > > > 60 63.7 8 3715
> > > >
> > > > There is a maximum voltage and ampere rating you can go over on a
> Motor.
> > > > This is call the Service Factor (SF). If 115V motor has a rated SF of
> 115%
> > > > And the motor has a ampere rating of 200 ampere for continuous running
>
>
> > > > then
> > > >
> > > > 200A x 1.15 = 230 amps. The 115V motor can run on 115V x 1.15 = 132.25
>
> V.
> > > >
> > > > On the label for the motor, there should be a Service Factor which may
>
> Say
> > > > SF 1.25 for a DC motor. I don't why the ADC and Warp motors do not
> Have
> > > > Motor label that list the specifications of the motor.
> > > >
> > > > My General Electric motor does. It list the DC motor as 165 volts at
> 175
> > > > Amps at 32 HP with a SF of 1.25 meaning the over voltage can be about
> 208
> > > > Volts and the over ampere can be 218 amperes continuous.
> > > >
> > > > Roland
>
> Therefore what I need to know is .
> If I chooses to go with 72 volts on my 30volt rated motor hoping to use less
>
> Than half the amps to do the same job .. Will that really be what I get??
> According to the above maybe not..
>
> However..
>
> Am I missing that some controllers actually decrease and control the
> Actually amps delivered to the motor?
> As I was told earlier here . They don't change the amount of amps .. Just
> That amount of time that the amps are applied to the motor.. Or are some
> Controllers different in that since.. ..
> So if I understand what I am herring.. Then also if the actually amps are
> Not changed .. If I open my controller up full to achive max speed the
> Amount of amps will not be decreased and my poor motor will die If the amps
> Raise and double when I raise the volts that I am considering to make my car
>
> With 72 instead do 30volts..
>
> Tanks Mitchell
>
>
--- End Message ---
