Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs
Well, does anyone have actual numbers regarding failures of Teslas? Overall, they've been out long enough that "we" should know if there are reliability problems or not. On my part, I have not heard of any widespread Tesla failure. What reliability problems is C.S. referring to? As for C.S. other statement, I would agree one would be nuts not to consider a Bolt. For a lot less money you get a great car. That doesn't say anything bad about a Tesla, though. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "mark hanson via EV" To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" Cc: "mark hanson" Sent: 08-Sep-18 6:34:24 PM Subject: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs Hi Bob etc, Consumer Reports said while they loved driving a Tesla model S, they gave it a poor rating on reliability and preferred the Leaf and now the Bolt, saying "you'd be nuts not to consider a Bolt". Elon Musk/Tesla is the *only* company that's putting 6800+ 21mm X 70mm itty bitty cells together in a large EV. When they came out with the Roadster in California, I asked a Tesla salesman about the long term reliability of 6800 points of failure and he said "don't think of it as 6800 points of failure, think of it as 6800 points of redundancy". Good spin. Either they know something that *no* other large scale vehicle manufacturer/engineering teams doesn't, or their long term reliability/profitability will continue to be poor. Knowing what I know about electronic componentry, I'll put my money on large format cells for large on road EV's, Bolt, Leaf, Smart, BMW etc. Note for further info, see: www.Batteryuniversity.com EV battery comparisons/lithium chemistries LMC Cathode, vs LiFePO4 & aluminized cathode (tesla type) cells. Best regards, Mark Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 18:00:28 -0400 From: Robert Bruninga To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: A comparative efficiency study of ... now Redundancy! Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I've always had it beat into my pointy engineering head to minimize component count. Which is also why id never own a Tesla with 6800 or so cells in their battery. That philosophy fails to recognize the value gained in multiple redundancy. The Tesla battery of 6800 cells is far more reliable since it has 74 cells in PARALLEL for each 3.6volt lithium unit. Compared to a Leaf with only 2 cells in parallel at each stage in the stack. IN the Tesla the impact on any single battery failure is then only 3% of the impact of a cell problem on a car with larger format cells. I'd take the multiple redundancy of the Tesla any day. Bob -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20180908/dc82f936/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs
Hi Bob etc, Consumer Reports said while they loved driving a Tesla model S, they gave it a poor rating on reliability and preferred the Leaf and now the Bolt, saying "you'd be nuts not to consider a Bolt". Elon Musk/Tesla is the *only* company that's putting 6800+ 21mm X 70mm itty bitty cells together in a large EV. When they came out with the Roadster in California, I asked a Tesla salesman about the long term reliability of 6800 points of failure and he said "don't think of it as 6800 points of failure, think of it as 6800 points of redundancy". Good spin. Either they know something that *no* other large scale vehicle manufacturer/engineering teams doesn't, or their long term reliability/profitability will continue to be poor. Knowing what I know about electronic componentry, I'll put my money on large format cells for large on road EV's, Bolt, Leaf, Smart, BMW etc. Note for further info, see: www.Batteryuniversity.com EV battery comparisons/lithium chemistries LMC Cathode, vs LiFePO4 & aluminized cathode (tesla type) cells. Best regards, Mark Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 18:00:28 -0400 From: Robert Bruninga To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: A comparative efficiency study of ... now Redundancy! Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > I've always had it beat into my pointy engineering head to minimize > component count. Which is also why id never own a Tesla with 6800 or > so cells in their battery. That philosophy fails to recognize the value gained in multiple redundancy. The Tesla battery of 6800 cells is far more reliable since it has 74 cells in PARALLEL for each 3.6volt lithium unit. Compared to a Leaf with only 2 cells in parallel at each stage in the stack. IN the Tesla the impact on any single battery failure is then only 3% of the impact of a cell problem on a car with larger format cells. I'd take the multiple redundancy of the Tesla any day. Bob -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20180908/dc82f936/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20180905
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Automakers-non-committal-advertising-2their-EV-commitment-production-2low-tp4691088.html
EVLN: Automakers' non-committal advertising 2their EV-commitment>
(production 2low)
Automakers are still not advertising their electric vehicles, study shows
Sep. 3rd 2018 automakers are still simply not advertising their electric
vehicles ...
https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/GM.jpg?quality=82=all
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Mercedes-fake-address-2trick4-DHL-EV-test-not-smart-tp4691089.html
EVLN: Mercedes' fake-address 2trick4 DHL EV test> (not smart)
Mercedes Caught ‘Borrowing’ DHL’s Electric Delivery Truck, Using It On Test
Track
August 31, 2018 Automakers ... keep tabs on rivals ... Mercedes went to
unusual lengths to get a hold ... of a delivery EV ...
https://images.carscoops.com/2018/08/85f85b31-streetscooter.jpg
+
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/02/how-many-progressives-have-been-duped-by-anti-tesla-anti-ev-propaganda/
How Many Progressives Have Been Duped By Anti-Tesla, Anti-EV Propaganda?
September 2nd, 2018 Another thing to remember: Dozens of oil & gas
billionaires, automotive billionaires, and coal billionaires are under
threat from the electric vehicle and solar ...
https://cleantechnica.com/files/2018/08/Tesla-Model-S-Model-X-blue-sky-570x413.jpg
https://www.electricvehiclesresearch.com/articles/15235/autonomous-grocery-delivery-trial
Autonomous grocery delivery trial
September 03, 2018 AutoX' has launched a grocery delivery Pilot program in
California. The grocery delivery and mobile store pilot in San Jose allows
users to order and receive fresh produce and other goods, which will be
delivered by ... self-driving EVs. Arriving in time for the autumn harvest
season, this new amenity will be available to customers in geo-fenced areas
near San Jose, with regular expansions every few weeks ...
https://idtxs3.imgix.net/si/4/1B/10.png?w=800
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-incentive-ca-shutdown-targets-Tesla-sue-me-sue-you-blues-tp4690908p4691035.html
Ontario EV rebate still quashed, but wind-down includes Tesla
Ford government does U-turn, expands electric vehicle rebates for Tesla
buyers
Aug 31, 2018 The Ontario government says it will not appeal a Superior
Court decision in favour of Tesla Motors Canada over the cancellation of
electric vehicle rebates.
https://i.cbc.ca/1.4455397.1513640821!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/tesla-motors.jpg
For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/archive/
{brucedp.neocities.org}
--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: Mercedes' fake-address 2trick4 DHL EV test> (not smart)
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/08/mercedes-caught-borrowing-dhls-electric-delivery-truck-using-test-track/
Mercedes Caught ‘Borrowing’ DHL’s Electric Delivery Truck, Using It On Test
Track
August 31, 2018 Michael Gauthier
[images
https://images.carscoops.com/2018/08/85f85b31-streetscooter.jpg
https://images.carscoops.com/2018/08/9a9277dc-streetscooter-1-768x400.jpg
https://images.carscoops.com/2018/08/be2b0b06-streetscooter-3.jpg
]
Automakers constantly keep tabs on rivals and their competing products, but
Mercedes went to unusual lengths to get a hold of something rather mundane –
an electric delivery vehicle.
According to Der Spiegel, Deutsche Post DHL and its StreetScooter division
made waves when it unveiled their electric delivery truck. The companies
wanted to see if there was enough demand to offer the model to other
businesses and invited potential customers to drive the truck to see if they
were interested.
A number of businesses signed up, but one of them raised a red flag. The
report says the company billed itself as a nursing service which was looking
to see if the electric model would be suitable for transporting patients.
This doesn’t sound too unusual, but the company’s mailing address didn’t
show up in DHL’s massive database.
Curious as to why the company would have lied on its application, DHL
alerted engineers and they began tracking the truck using GPS. The truck was
headed towards Stuttgart and it ended up at a Daimler facility. A short time
later, it was reportedly driven on a test track.
DHL was understandably surprised by this development and it wasn’t without
irony as the delivery service had asked Daimler to develop an electric
delivery vehicle for them a few years earlier. Daimler rebuffed that
request, but it appears the automaker was extremely interested in what the
company had developed.
DHL wasn’t going to put up with Daimler’s snooping, so the head of
Streetscooter sent an employee and a couple of lawyers to demand that the
automaker return the vehicle. This apparently caught Daimler off guard as
members of the company’s development team had reportedly just taken the
truck for a spin.
After waiting approximately half an hour, the delivery truck was returned
with “no excuse, no explanation.” One day later, Daimler reportedly
confessed to the trickery and explained that renting out competing vehicles
is a “common procedure” in the automotive industry. While that’s certainly
true, it’s probably not the smartest idea to give a fake address to a
delivery company.
[© carscoops.com]
+
https://www.electricvehiclesresearch.com/articles/15235/autonomous-grocery-delivery-trial
Autonomous grocery delivery trial
September 03, 2018 AutoX' has launched a grocery delivery Pilot program in
California. The grocery delivery and mobile store pilot in San Jose allows
users to order and receive fresh produce and other goods, which will be
delivered by ... self-driving EVs. Arriving in time for the autumn harvest
season, this new amenity will be available to customers in geo-fenced areas
near San Jose, with regular expansions every few weeks ...
https://idtxs3.imgix.net/si/4/1B/10.png?w=800
For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/archive/
{brucedp.neocities.org}
--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: Automakers' non-committal advertising 2their EV-commitment> (production 2low)
https://electrek.co/2018/09/03/automakers-not-advertising-electric-vehicles-study/ Automakers are still not advertising their electric vehicles, study shows Sep. 3rd 2018 Fred Lambert [images https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/screen-shot-2018-05-25-at-9-22-58-am-e1527254733521.jpg?resize=1500%2C0=82=all=1 Challenger ice https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/nissan.jpg?quality=82=all bar chart https://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/ford2.jpg?w=499=365=82=all=1 ford2 https://i1.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/toyota.png?w=493=365=82=all=1 toyota https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/GM.jpg?quality=82=all ] To date, the best ad I’ve seen for electric vehicles has been a Dodge Challenger Demon ad (pictured above) because they had to include fine-prints saying that their “best” performance claims excluded electric cars. That’s partly because automakers are still simply not advertising their electric vehicles as shown by a new study. The Sierra Club and the Northeast States for Coordinated Air Use Management (NESCAUM) have an interesting annual study of advertising instances and spending for electric vehicles by automakers. The last one showed that they are pushing to sell EVs significantly less than gas-guzzling cars, and are not spending a lot of money to try to educate the public about electric propulsion. It’s an issue because the lack of awareness is surprisingly still the biggest problem for electric vehicle adoption, as surveys have shown. In a new update to the study released last week, it shows that the automakers that they tracked (General Motors, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Volkswagen, and Fiat Chrysler) are still not spending much to advertise their electric vehicles – despite trending a little higher in some instances: “The report, which looks at 2017 automotive ad spending, shows that in California and Northeast markets as well as in nationwide ads, FiatChrysler didn’t advertise the electric Fiat 500e at all, and Volkswagen didn’t advertise the eGolf at all either. When examining data from California and the Northeast, Nissan, Toyota, and Ford also spent NOTHING on ads for the plug-in Leaf, Prius Prime, Fusion, and C-Max Energi, respectively.” Here’s a comparison of Nissan’s ad spending on the Leaf versus the Rogue in the US: When looking at plug-in hybrids, we are seeing similar situations for Ford and Toyota with their respective vehicles: One silver lining is GM with the Chevy Bolt EV. We are still not talking about incredible ad money in total spending like they spend on their trucks, but it is nonetheless starting to add up to a decent amount in CARB states at least: “Chevy, which appears to have spent more than any other company on EV advertising, spent roughly $16 million in total advertising for the Bolt, looking nationwide and specifically in California and the Northeast — the markets where the “zero-emission vehicle mandate” is in place that requires automakers to sell increasing numbers of EVs.” That’s actually a lot of money per car when you consider that GM only delivered about 23,000 Bolt EVs in the US last year. That adds up to about $700 in advertising per car for the Bolt EV. In comparison, GM delivered over half a million Silverado trucks in the US last year, which results in just over $200 in advertising spending per truck. Electrek’s Take To be fair, that’s partly because they don’t have to advertise since most good EV out there is production constrained. But then you have to ask yourself ‘are they production constrained because there’s a ton of demand or because they are keeping the production way too low?’ The latter is too often true, unfortunately. You also have to look at Tesla, the biggest electric automaker in the US, and they don’t spend any money on traditional advertising. It’s certainly a weird space of its own right now that the industry is still trying to figure out. I think it’s going to improve soon as more EVs enter the market and it becomes a more competitive space. Also, efforts like VW’s Electrify America launching a national advertising campaign to promote EVs could also potentially make a difference ... [© electrek.co] https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/02/automakers-try-hard-to-not-sell-electric-cars/ Automakers Try Hard To NOT Sell Electric Cars Sep 2, 2018 Automaker executives from Ford, GM, Nissan, and Toyota are fond of saying that not very many consumers want electric cars. They sometimes claim they could produce many more electric cars, but customers are not asking for them. (The execs somehow ignore the hundreds of thousands of orders Tesla has pulled in for the Model 3.) ... https://cleantechnica.com/files/2018/09/Ford-ad-spending--570x416.jpg + https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/02/how-many-progressives-have-been-duped-by-anti-tesla-anti-ev-propaganda/ How Many Progressives Have Been Duped By
