Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla

[Bill Dennis via EV]

There's an article in slate.com today about some of the reasons why people
dislike Tesla, and Musk.

https://slate.com/technology/2022/05/elon-musk-tesla-twitter-fables.html

Bill

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Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla

[Michael A. Radtke via EV]

David,

>Not to break in on a semi-private conversation here, but I wonder what
>end- of-life looks like for an EV.

Well, for my Jet ElecraVan, end of life is lead acid is obsolete and
while there were only a few produced, it is not considered a classic.
(Yet, I'm tinkering with moving to lithium.)

For my i-MiEV, end of life is not much different.  The car is in great
shape, but its pack is showing signs of wear.  Replacements aren't
available, and its range is no longer competitive.  In my opinion,
Paul's approach would be a life saver.  Now, if he'll just talk to
me ...

Thanks,
Mike
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Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla

[Cor van de Water via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla

[Michael Ross via EV]

I spent 7 years designing sensors and actuators for the aftermarket
business of Standard Motor Products. A successful manufacturing and
reselling auto part supplier since the 1920's. Still going strong,
aggregating the demand for lower volume parts to supply your local auto
parts store. There is still a need for "Right to Repair." As long as stuff
wears out there will be spares. What they cost will be all about the
market. What is the demand? And what price will it bear? If there are
millions of cars there will be hundreds of thousands of spare parts.

On Sun, May 29, 2022 at 4:23 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 29 May 2022 at 11:54, Michael A. Radtke via EV wrote:
>
> > I use the [Imiev] nearly every day and depend on it.  I also realize that
> > it is approaching end of life and there is nothing on the market that,
> > in my opinion, does the job that I need it to do.
>
> Not to break in on a semi-private conversation here, but I wonder what end-
> of-life looks like for an EV.
>
> For as long as I've been following EVs (about 55 years), lower mechanical
> complexity => longer potential mechanical life has always been a big check
> in the plus column.
>
> Stuff wears out, yea verily even electronics.  "Longer life" thus assumes
> that spare parts remain available and affordable, and that the battery is
> rebuildable or replaceable. Spares are always a fight as a car ages.
> Fortunately consumer law is more or less on our side on that scrap.
>
> But at least in the US it's become tougher to improve consumer law.  If
> we're stuck with the ICEV-oriented laws on EV spare parts availablity,
> then
> EV end of life might look pretty much like ICEV end of life.
>
> And then there's the body, again from the perspective of the snowy, salty
> northern US.  The (galvanized?) steel now used in cars lasts longer than
> the
> old dip-primed (or not) stuff of 50-60 years ago.  But steel never really
> stops longing to return to its lower energy steady state of iron oxide.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  We can't solve problems by using the same kind
>  of thinking we used when we created them.
>
> -- Alan Kay
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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>


-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 29 May 2022 at 11:54, Michael A. Radtke via EV wrote:

> I use the [Imiev] nearly every day and depend on it.  I also realize that
> it is approaching end of life and there is nothing on the market that,
> in my opinion, does the job that I need it to do.  

Not to break in on a semi-private conversation here, but I wonder what end-
of-life looks like for an EV.  

For as long as I've been following EVs (about 55 years), lower mechanical 
complexity => longer potential mechanical life has always been a big check 
in the plus column.  

Stuff wears out, yea verily even electronics.  "Longer life" thus assumes 
that spare parts remain available and affordable, and that the battery is 
rebuildable or replaceable. Spares are always a fight as a car ages.  
Fortunately consumer law is more or less on our side on that scrap.

But at least in the US it's become tougher to improve consumer law.  If 
we're stuck with the ICEV-oriented laws on EV spare parts availablity, then 
EV end of life might look pretty much like ICEV end of life.

And then there's the body, again from the perspective of the snowy, salty 
northern US.  The (galvanized?) steel now used in cars lasts longer than the 
old dip-primed (or not) stuff of 50-60 years ago.  But steel never really 
stops longing to return to its lower energy steady state of iron oxide.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 We can't solve problems by using the same kind
 of thinking we used when we created them.

-- Alan Kay
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla

[Michael A. Radtke via EV]

Paul,

Sorry for the reply on list, but my private email to you bounced.

-

Paul,

My I-MiEV still has about a 60 mile range.  I have been very pleased
with it because of its utility and the fact that it doesn't phone
home.  I even installed cruise in it.

I use the car nearly every day and depend on it.  I also realize that
it is approaching end of life and there is nothing on the market that,
in my opinion, does the job that I need it to do.  

I would be very interested in your upgrade and appreciate a thread on
your progress.

Thanks,
Mike  (Phoenix, AZ)

-

 Original Message 
Date: Sat, 28 May 2022 20:47:43 + (UTC)
From: paul dove via EV 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: paul dove , EV List Lackey 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla


I am game! I have a 2012 I-MiEV that does about 30 miles. I bought some
Samsung SDI cells that are 94Ah original batteries were 50Ah. They are
just slightly taller than the Yuasa batteries used originally so I
believe they will fit with no mods. I had one before that had the
battery replaced by Mitsubishi and the mechanic had to use a
programming tool before the battery would recognize the new capacity.
So I’m going to try and hack the BMU myself for it to allow more
capacity. I figure it will do 130 miles per charge when finished. Maybe
I should start a thread on this!


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 12:51 PM, EV List Lackey via EV
 wrote:

It's been interesting to watch this thread, and think about how posts
here on the EV list have changed.

The EVDL has been around for over 30 years now.  Even as recently as
2008- 10, we were all about conversions.  Posts flew by on motor brush
advance, Lovejoy couplers, adapter plates, controllers, battery temps,
charger efficiency and isolation, cooling, heating, BMSes, suspension
tweaks, belly pans, power steering drives, brake vacuum, front wheel
toe, tire inflation pressures, rolling resistance, disk brake drag ...
on and on and on.  Who can forget the debates over clutch vs
clutchless, flooded vs AGM, AC vs DC? We were literally designing EVs
here, one at a time.

Now it's 2022.  We've had 12 years of the Mitsubishi Imiev*, 11 years
of the Nissan Leaf, and 10 of the Tesla S.  

What are we talking about now?  Dealer service.

Whodathunkit?!

This is the world we all pined for back when we were trying to figure
out how to cram in one more battery and make the automatic transmission
shift at the right points for an ADC FB1-4001, back when Solectria's
guys were piling up Geo Metro mufflers and radiators behind their shop
in Wilmington.  

Still, I have to admit, I get a little nostalgic now and then.  :-\

*The Imiev went out of production in 2019 (I think), but you can still
find a few new copies of the Peugeot Ion and Citroen C-Zero variants in
the EU. In 2021 they sold - drumroll - 18 of them.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
    If you made a column of things you're pretty sure you know, and 
    then made another column of how you know those things, most of 
    that column is like: "Some guy told me." It's just clickbait 
    and hearsay.  Goes into the head, locks onto a feeling, you're 
    like: "That sounds good. I'm gonna tell other people that." And 
    that's how brand marketing works, and also fascism, we're 
    finding.

                                                    -- Marc Maron
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] new topics (Why people dislike Tesla)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Agreed. That's the trend (mid range delivery vans) and it certainly 
makes sense in the commercial environment. I think we'll see some long 
range minivans in a few years but they will be oriented towards hauling 
lots of people, with expensive infotainment systems and creature 
comforts, not for hauling stuff.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 29-May-22 00:16:04
Subject: Re: [EVDL] new topics (Why people dislike Tesla)


I don’t know that you will find a BEV van with that range for awhile.

Commercial use and demand (like package delivery) will be needed first. For 
that kind of range, DHL in Europe has said that above 150 km (miles?) it makes 
no sense, as the space needed takes away too much from payload space. They’ve 
said something like “we get paid for moving packages, not batteries”.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On May 28, 2022, at 5:16 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

 you're right. In most cases, there's probably a commercially built EV that 
will meet one's desires. Conversions are generally not worth the cost or work. 
(Although I still consider converting my ancient honda odyssey, since no one is 
making an EV minivan that's useful for hauling lots of stuff and has 250+ mile 
range.)

 But there are new topics which could come up. Here are some that are relevant 
to me or could be:
 - tradeoffs of changing toe-in to improve range
 - hydraulic (or other) lift for higher ground clearance
 - how to protect the battery from ground strikes
 - what does it take to replace stock wheels and tires with something having 
higher sidewalls
 - how does one remove the center console (bedroom closet, these days) for more 
free space
 - kit to reduce drag coefficient (some cars look like barges)

 Peri

 << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

 -- Original Message --
 From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
 Sent: 28-May-22 10:54:52
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla


 It's been interesting to watch this thread, and think about how posts here
 on the EV list have changed.

 The EVDL has been around for over 30 years now.  Even as recently as 2008-
 10, we were all about conversions.  Posts flew by on motor brush advance,
 Lovejoy couplers, adapter plates, controllers, battery temps, charger
 efficiency and isolation, cooling, heating, BMSes, suspension tweaks, belly
 pans, power steering drives, brake vacuum, front wheel toe, tire inflation
 pressures, rolling resistance, disk brake drag ... on and on and on.  Who
 can forget the debates over clutch vs clutchless, flooded vs AGM, AC vs DC?
 We were literally designing EVs here, one at a time.

 Now it's 2022.  We've had 12 years of the Mitsubishi Imiev*, 11 years of the
 Nissan Leaf, and 10 of the Tesla S.

 What are we talking about now?  Dealer service.

 Whodathunkit?!

 This is the world we all pined for back when we were trying to figure out
 how to cram in one more battery and make the automatic transmission shift at
 the right points for an ADC FB1-4001, back when Solectria's guys were piling
 up Geo Metro mufflers and radiators behind their shop in Wilmington.

 Still, I have to admit, I get a little nostalgic now and then.  :-\

 *The Imiev went out of production in 2019 (I think), but you can still find
 a few new copies of the Peugeot Ion and Citroen C-Zero variants in the EU.
 In 2021 they sold - drumroll - 18 of them.

 David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

 To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
 offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 If you made a column of things you're pretty sure you know, and
 then made another column of how you know those things, most of
 that column is like: "Some guy told me." It's just clickbait
 and hearsay.  Goes into the head, locks onto a feeling, you're
 like: "That sounds good. I'm gonna tell other people that." And
 that's how brand marketing works, and also fascism, we're
 finding.

 -- Marc Maron
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] leaf heater switch

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I know very well what it means. And, for a given  frontal area, a lower 
Cd means less drag. In Tesla's case, I think they are trying to maximize 
cabin space without having a larger battery, and the Cd has a 
significant effect on overall drag. Other manufacturers seem to be more 
interested in the macho bulldozer look at the expense of other factors.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Paul Compton" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 29-May-22 00:34:52
Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf heater switch


On Fri, 20 May 2022 at 19:50, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:


 Here's one of the reasons Tesla is better: lower drag coefficient. Why does 
that matter?


You seem to be under the impression that a lower Cd equals lower drag.

You might want to go and look up the meaning of the word coefficient.

--
Paul Compton
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)


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Re: [EVDL] new topics (Why people dislike Tesla)

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Sun May 29 00:16:04 PDT 2022 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Commercial use and demand (like package delivery) will be needed first. For 
>that kind of range, DHL in Europe has said that above 150 km (miles?) it makes 
>no sense, as the space needed takes away too much from payload space. They?ve 
>said something like ?we get paid for moving packages, not batteries?.

So, the upgrade for my F250 would fit right in.  New pack should bring it up to 
about 150 mile range.


--

Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: [EVDL] new topics (Why people dislike Tesla)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I don’t know that you will find a BEV van with that range for awhile.

Commercial use and demand (like package delivery) will be needed first. For 
that kind of range, DHL in Europe has said that above 150 km (miles?) it makes 
no sense, as the space needed takes away too much from payload space. They’ve 
said something like “we get paid for moving packages, not batteries”.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On May 28, 2022, at 5:16 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> you're right. In most cases, there's probably a commercially built EV that 
> will meet one's desires. Conversions are generally not worth the cost or 
> work. (Although I still consider converting my ancient honda odyssey, since 
> no one is making an EV minivan that's useful for hauling lots of stuff and 
> has 250+ mile range.)
> 
> But there are new topics which could come up. Here are some that are relevant 
> to me or could be:
> - tradeoffs of changing toe-in to improve range
> - hydraulic (or other) lift for higher ground clearance
> - how to protect the battery from ground strikes
> - what does it take to replace stock wheels and tires with something having 
> higher sidewalls
> - how does one remove the center console (bedroom closet, these days) for 
> more free space
> - kit to reduce drag coefficient (some cars look like barges)
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
> Sent: 28-May-22 10:54:52
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why people dislike Tesla
> 
>> It's been interesting to watch this thread, and think about how posts here
>> on the EV list have changed.
>> 
>> The EVDL has been around for over 30 years now.  Even as recently as 2008-
>> 10, we were all about conversions.  Posts flew by on motor brush advance,
>> Lovejoy couplers, adapter plates, controllers, battery temps, charger
>> efficiency and isolation, cooling, heating, BMSes, suspension tweaks, belly
>> pans, power steering drives, brake vacuum, front wheel toe, tire inflation
>> pressures, rolling resistance, disk brake drag ... on and on and on.  Who
>> can forget the debates over clutch vs clutchless, flooded vs AGM, AC vs DC?
>> We were literally designing EVs here, one at a time.
>> 
>> Now it's 2022.  We've had 12 years of the Mitsubishi Imiev*, 11 years of the
>> Nissan Leaf, and 10 of the Tesla S.
>> 
>> What are we talking about now?  Dealer service.
>> 
>> Whodathunkit?!
>> 
>> This is the world we all pined for back when we were trying to figure out
>> how to cram in one more battery and make the automatic transmission shift at
>> the right points for an ADC FB1-4001, back when Solectria's guys were piling
>> up Geo Metro mufflers and radiators behind their shop in Wilmington.
>> 
>> Still, I have to admit, I get a little nostalgic now and then.  :-\
>> 
>> *The Imiev went out of production in 2019 (I think), but you can still find
>> a few new copies of the Peugeot Ion and Citroen C-Zero variants in the EU.
>> In 2021 they sold - drumroll - 18 of them.
>> 
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> 
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> If you made a column of things you're pretty sure you know, and
>> then made another column of how you know those things, most of
>> that column is like: "Some guy told me." It's just clickbait
>> and hearsay.  Goes into the head, locks onto a feeling, you're
>> like: "That sounds good. I'm gonna tell other people that." And
>> that's how brand marketing works, and also fascism, we're
>> finding.
>> 
>> -- Marc Maron
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
>> ___
>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> 
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] leaf heater switch

[Paul Compton via EV]

On Fri, 20 May 2022 at 19:50, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Here's one of the reasons Tesla is better: lower drag coefficient. Why does 
> that matter?

You seem to be under the impression that a lower Cd equals lower drag.

You might want to go and look up the meaning of the word coefficient.

-- 
Paul Compton
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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