Re: [EVDL] Comparing battery-model pack-configurations : Time for battery change
On 3/28/2015 6:48 PM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: From: Roger Daisley Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 After five years in my '86 VW Cabbie, my 96v flooded pack is ready for replacement. I plan on adding two more batteries under the back seat floor, using the Electro-Automotive kit, boosting to 108v. My question to this group is: Should I be considering Lithium, or should I wait for the next battery replacement cycle? I am thinking the Lithium pack will be around $7000. Is this about right? ] [..much deleted.] It states a 40 mile range and does 25 miles typically (that explains how your pack lasted so long; you did not use it that much and now that it is tired, its range can be reduced to ~25 miles and still works for you. But if you make a pack voltage change, you will have-to change your WA lic-plate from "96 volt" & your 96-volt.com web site URL. > [. more deleted] Different configurations compared: 24 US1800 56lb 107min@75A batteries weighs: 1416lbs The 144V pack would have (1.783*75*6*24= ) 19.256kWh A gain of ~2.48kWh and 344lbs 20 US2000 59lb 114min@75A batteries weighs: 1180lbs The 120V pack would have (1.9*75*6*20= )17.100kWh A gain of ~.324kWh and 108lbs 18 US125 67lb 140min@75A batteries weighs: 1206lbs The 108V pack would have (2.33*75*6*18= ) 18.900kWh A gain of ~2kWhs and 134lbs I personally wouldn't hesitate to go lithium. Much lower maintenance and weight. Virtually no peukert effect. You can use 80% of the battery instead of 50%. However they need a different charge algorithm so you may need to spend more on a new charger as well. I have CALB CA100FI cells in my truck and I'm happy with them. To sort-of duplicate Bruce's table: 45 CA100FI 7.5lb cells weigh: 338 lbs The 144 volt pack would have 11520 kWh Cost about $6000 38 CA100FI 7.5lb cells weigh: 285 lbs The 120 volt pack would have 9600 kWh Cost about $5000 34 CA100FI 7.5lb cells weigh: 255 lbs The 108 volt pack would have 8640 kWh Cost about $4600 My prices are high because I estimated shipping. I didn't include BMS or charger. Figure another $2000 if you need them both. The kWh may seem low (it's 80% of the theoretical maximum) but realize your vehicle will weight 7-800 pounds less than it does now. You may also be able to fit all the cells in the space your current batteries take up without having to add any new boxes. When I converted my truck I went from 14 batteries under the bed and 10 under the hood to 45 lithium cells under the bed. I also spent a lot of time repairing acid-induced rot. Never again. --Rick ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Comparing battery-model pack-configurations : Time for battery change
[2nd try - something trashed my first attempt] [ref http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Time-for-battery-change-tp4674585.html From: Roger Daisley Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 After five years in my '86 VW Cabbie, my 96v flooded pack is ready for replacement. I plan on adding two more batteries under the back seat floor, using the Electro-Automotive kit, boosting to 108v. My question to this group is: Should I be considering Lithium, or should I wait for the next battery replacement cycle? I am thinking the Lithium pack will be around $7000. Is this about right? ] Roger, you did not state what your EV-driving needs/goals were, nor more about your EV. I did some research to find out: http://www.evalbum.com/1313 1986 Volkswagen Cabriolet “ElectricJet” "I'd also "rather not" spend the required $4,000" [on li-ion] It states a 40 mile range and does 25 miles typically (that explains how your pack lasted so long; you did not use it that much and now that it is tired, its range can be reduced to ~25 miles and still works for you. But if you make a pack voltage change, you will have-to change your WA lic-plate from "96 volt" & your 96-volt.com web site URL. (from 96-volt.com ) "I'm watching [lithium-ion] carefully and might consider it, if the price is right. Other than being able to extend the vehicle range an amount farther than I usually drive and allow me to spin the wheels and beat most cars to the first stop-light, I really can get along with my faithful non-BMS lead-acid batteries." In a couple of previous evdl posts: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Costco-GC-battery-rating-tp4669087.html Apr 21, 2014 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Adding-new-batteries-to-an-older-pack-tp3673447p3673546.html Jul 17, 2011 I get a picture that your EV fits your needs well. Others have commented about upgrading to a Li-ion pack. But I will focus on the other side of the coin: you stay spending-conservatively and keep your previous frugal-wisdom of using PbSO4, but consider other PbSO4 options. Looking at what public EVSE is in your south-east corner of WA http://www.afdc.energy.gov/locator/stations/results?utf8=?&location=99164&filtered=true&fuel=ELEC there isn't much. So, your less expensive pfc-20 model charger likely fits your EV-charging needs. It slow, but that is OK for over-night or all-day at work. You had mentioned in your post that you were thinking of adding a battery box under a seat. Others have reported having problems with Electro-Automotive. So, I found there are many other less-expensive battery boxes to chose from: https://www.google.com/#q=battery+box&tbm=shop A San Jose EAA member used similar plastic battery boxes in his 120VDC Porsche 914 EV for years with success. Your EValbum site mentions Interstate US125 batteries, but Interstate does not offer that model, US Batteries does. On your 96-volt web site you mention US125's, so I will assume you are using US Batteries. -It would be good to tell us why you thought about bumping your 96V pack up to 108V. Is it to gain range, or performance, or both? -Also it would be good to know which 1231C controller model you actually have so that we would know the maximum pack voltage it can handle, see: http://evalbum.com/curtis US 125 XC 67lb 140min@75A Your 96V US125 pack weighs (16 x 67lbs= ) 1072lbs Your 96V pack has (2.33*75*6*16= )16.776kWh You mentioned adding two more batteries to make a 108V pack. An 18 67lb US125 pack would weigh (18 x 67lbs= ) 1206lbs The 108V pack would have (2.33*75*6*18= )18.900kWh A gain of ~2kWhs and 134lbs You could bump your pack up to 120V without a large pack-weight increase by switching to a lighter 6V traction/golf battery model. Though those lighter 6V battery model have less energy capacity, there will be more of them= ~same or better range with more performance/pep. This idea of more batteries but using a lighter battery model to keep the pack weight about the same is what Kitty Rodden did to her Porsche EV that she raced, see: http://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/library/extra4/sloan/EVonline/evaosc/9406/page4.htm Kitty Rodden in her Porsche 914 ... switched ... to 20 T105 6 volt batteries to handle her longer commute ... In the Trojan Battery Presentation she made to EAA Chapters: http://brucedp.150m.com/evbatt.html She mentioned that the 6V traction/golf battery models that had the same physical dimensions as a T105 did have more energy than the T105, but at a price of being acid-electrolyte starved. The more those models weighed, with the same amount of electrolyte available did provide more energy (measured in minutes). But their cycle life was reduced, and their performance got mushy with repeated hard accelerations. I experienced this first-hand, as I had changed my S-10 Blazer EV's pack voltage from 120VDC to 132VDC, and tried different model batteries. The T-145 pack did give the most energy ( = ran
[EVDL] Comparing battery-model pack-configurations : Time for battery change
[refhttp://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Time-for-battery-change-tp4674585.htmlFrom: Roger DaisleyDate: Fri, 27 Mar 2015After five years in my '86 VW Cabbie, my 96v flooded pack is ready forreplacement. I plan on adding two more batteries under the back seat floor, using the Electro-Automotive kit, boosting to 108v.My question to this group is: Should I be considering Lithium, or should I wait for the next battery replacement cycle? I am thinking the Lithium pack will be around $7000. Is this about right?]Roger, you did not state what your EV-driving needs/goals were, nor more about your EV. I did some research to find out:http://www.evalbum.com/13131986 Volkswagen Cabriolet “ElectricJet”"I'd also "rather not" spend the required $4,000" [on li-ion]It states a 40 mile range and does 25 miles typically (that explains how your pack lasted so long; you did not use it that much and now that it is tired, its range can be reduced to ~25 miles and still works for you. But if you make a pack voltage change, you will have-to change your WA lic-plate from "96 volt" & your 96-volt.com web site URL.(from 96-volt.com )"I'm watching [lithium-ion] carefully and might consider it, if the price is right. Other than being able to extend the vehicle range an amount farther than I usually drive and allow me to spin the wheels and beat most cars to the first stop-light, I really can get along with my faithful non-BMS lead-acid batteries."In a couple of previous evdl posts:http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Costco-GC-battery-rating-tp4669087.htmlApr 21, 2014http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Adding-new-batteries-to-an-older-pack-tp3673447p3673546.htmlJul 17, 2011 I get a picture that your EV fits your needs well. Others have commented about upgrading to a Li-ion pack. But I will focus on the other side of the coin: you stay spending-conservatively and keep your previous frugal-wisdom of using PbSO4, but consider other PbSO4 options.Looking at what public EVSE is in your south-east corner of WAhttp://www.afdc.energy.gov/locator/stations/results?utf8=?&location=99164&filtered=true&fuel=ELEC there isn't much. So, your less expensive pfc-20 model charger likely fits your EV-charging needs. It slow, but that is OK for over-night or all-day at work.You had mentioned in your post that you were thinking of adding a battery box under a seat. Others have reported having problems with Electro-Automotive. So, I found there are many other less-expensive battery boxes to chose from:https://www.google.com/#q=battery+box&tbm=shopA San Jose EAA member used similar plastic battery boxes in his 120VDC Porsche 914 EV for years with success.Your EValbum site mentions Interstate US125 batteries, but Interstate does not offer that model, US Batteries does. On your 96-volt web site you mention US125's, so I will assume you are using US Batteries.-It would be good to tell us why you thought about bumping your 96V pack up to 108V.Is it to gain range, or performance, or both?-Also it would be good to know which 1231C controller model you actually have so that we would know the maximum pack voltage it can handle, see:http://evalbum.com/curtisUS 125 XC 67lb 140min@75AYour 96V US125 pack weighs (16 x 67lbs= ) 1072lbsYour 96V pack has (2.33*75*6*16= ) 16.776kWh You mentioned adding two more batteries to make a 108V pack. An 18 67lb US125 pack would weigh (18 x 67lbs= ) 1206lbsThe 108V pack would have (2.33*75*6*18= )18.900kWhA gain of ~2kWhs and 134lbsYou could bump your pack up to 120V without a large pack-weight increase by switching to a lighter 6V traction/golf battery model.Though those lighter 6V battery model have less energy capacity, there will be more of them= ~same or better range with more performance/pep.This idea of more batteries but using a lighter battery model to keep the pack weight about the same is what Kitty Rodden did to her Porsche EV that she raced, see:http://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/library/extra4/sloan/EVonline/evaosc/9406/page4.htmKitty Rodden in her Porsche 914 ... switched ... to 20 T105 6 volt batteries to handle her longer commute ...In the Trojan Battery Presentation she made to EAA Chapters:http://brucedp.150m.com/evbatt.htmlShe mentioned that the 6V traction/golf battery models that had the same physical dimensions as a T105 did have more energy than the T105, but at a price of being acid-electrolyte starved. The more those models weighed, with the same amount of electrolyte available did provide more energy (measured in minutes). But their cycle life was reduced, and their performance got mushy with repeated hard accelerations.I experienced this first-hand, as I had changed my S-10 Blazer EV's pack voltage from 120VDC to 132VDC, and tried different model batteries. The T-145 pack did give the most energy ( = range), but it was much heavier, and made my EV more of a lead-sled. It worked best for me if I got up to highway speed, and
