John Wayland will soon have such a car. You can read some of the details here, but as you would guess he also has a lot of very special batteries to try and push the 400 mile limit http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/?p=486"Fast forward to now… I’ve owned the Insight since I bought it new in2000 (ser. # 904), I have this new condition EV1 motor/transaxle thatescaped the crusher – special thanks to Otmar Ebenhoech for his friend’s‘insight’ to source it over a GM parts counter before they were all gone, with generous sponsorship from Dow Kokam I also have 258, 75 ahr LiPol cells, and I now have an inverter… no more excuses! My wife had accused me of being nuts for wanting to take apart our like-new car that we paid $21,000 for in 2000, while at the same time – as she always did, challenged me to follow my dream." Looking at this project you can see what kind of engineering goes into making a 400 mile per charge EV. This blog post is several years old, but the project is once again being worked on. The death of his wife Cheryl who many old timers on this list remember fondly set him back a solid 3 years. thanksDamon
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 23:56:21 -0700 > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffycarbon) > battery paper > From: ev@lists.evdl.org > > To get a 400 mile range in an EV, which typically gets at least 4 miles > per kWh, you need 100kWh pack. > If you empty this pack completely then you would typically charge it > overnight at home, or a kind of Supercharger if you needed to continue > your trip instantly, Tesla is already charging 90kWh packs and rumor has > it that their next evolution of pack improvements will push it to > 100kWh. > Overnight (8 hours) of charging only requires double the standard Level > 2 power: you need 12 kW instead of 6. > This means only 50 Amps at 240 Volts, no problem on a typical home > service of 200 Amps. > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless > > office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water > XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info > > http://www.proxim.com > > This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and > proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received > this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any > unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of > this message is prohibited. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via > EV > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 4:22 AM > To: spk...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 > (fluffycarbon) battery paper > > Even if she succeeds. There is still the charging issue. Where would you > get enough power to charge a 400 mile range vehicle in a timely manner? > You would need 150kw battery or so. You can't get that kind of power out > of the grid and how often would you need to drive 400 miles. > > Trying to solve a problem we don't have. > > Sent from my iPad > > > On May 12, 2016, at 6:10 AM, Sean Korb via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote: > > > > This is the sort of thing where I should study the paper, read the > dissents > > and then give my completely unscientific opinion as if it were fact. > I > > don't even play a scientist on TV :) > > > > It sounds s bit like an Aluminum/Air battery which *is* lightweight > and > > powerful... and very difficult to recharge short of sending it back to > the > > bauxite mine. Lithium exposed to air is highly reactive... and > exposed to > > about anything else like water it is explosive! (Well they H2 gas > given > > off in the reaction is explosive). If she can control that in any > way, > > that's phenomenal even if all we get is a disposable battery. Just > sitting > > on the sidelines, this kind of research is fascinating! > > > > sean > > > >> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 6:23 AM, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > http://qz.com/678040/doubts-have-been-raised-about-a-cambridge-professor > s-acclaimed-battery-breakthrough/ > >> Doubts have been raised about a Cambridge professor's acclaimed > battery > >> breakthrough > >> May 07, 2016 Steve LeVine > >> > >> [image > >> > >> > https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/battery-e1462568109627.jpg?qu > ality=80&strip=all&w=768 > >> (Reuters/Regis Duvignau) > >> ] > >> > >> Scientists have disputed a claimed breakthrough in one of the most > >> promising > >> fields of advanced battery research, casting fresh doubt on efforts > to > >> leapfrog current lithium-ion technology. > >> > >> The questions have been raised about an advance announced by Clare > Grey, a > >> prominent battery researcher at Cambridge University, who created a > stir in > >> October with a paper published [ > >> http://science.sciencemag.org/content/350/6260/530 > >> ] by the prestigious peer-reviewed journal Science. In the paper, > Grey > >> described a breakthrough with "lithium-air," a theoretical technology > that, > >> if it could be made to work, could possess more than five times the > energy > >> density of current lithium-ion batteries, and roughly the same > density as > >> gasoline. > >> > >> Such a system would solve the shortcomings of current lithium-ion > >> batteries, > >> which are costly and weigh too much to allow electrics to compete > with > >> equivalently priced gasoline-propelled cars. Electric cars to be > launched > >> over the next few years from GM, Tesla, and others will cost $35,000 > and go > >> 200 miles, but if lithium-air were solved, such vehicles would go > much > >> farther, and cost much less. > >> "New battery could power electric car from London to Edinburgh on a > single > >> charge," a distance of 400 miles, read the headline at the UK's Daily > >> Telegraph [ > >> > >> > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/11964217/New-battery-could-power > -electric-car-from-London-to-Edinburgh-on-single-charge.html > >> ], reporting on Grey's Oct. 29 announcement. > >> > >> But in two dissents published at Science on May 6, researchers at > seven > >> universities and national laboratories in the US, China, and > Australia > >> contend that Grey's paper contained errors, and that her claims could > not > >> be > >> replicated. Grey replied in the same issue of the magazine, but did > not > >> appear to contest the substance of their objections. > >> > >> A battery's energy is derived from the composition and action of its > two > >> electrodes. In this case, the theory is that air would be made to > flow in > >> and out of a battery, serving as one of the two electrodes, and > essentially > >> weightless. The second electrode would be highly energetic metallic > >> lithium. > >> Combined, such a system would produce a light, energetic battery that > would > >> challenge the gasoline-powered internal combustion engine head to > head. > >> > >> A principal challenge faced by researchers, however, has been that > >> lithium-air batteries have refused to recharge more than a few tens > of > >> times; the system has only grudgingly released the oxygen necessary > for the > >> air flow after it's been absorbed. Leading US labs, discouraged by > failed > >> attempts to resolve such problems, have stopped trying [ > >> > >> > http://qz.com/214969/two-big-labs-most-promising-next-generation-battery > -electric-car/ > >> ]. > >> > >> But in her paper [ > >> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151029152629.htm > >> ], Grey and six researchers in her Cambridge group proposed resolving > the > >> recharge problem [ > >> > >> > http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/149ca550-7e30-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.html > #axzz47pIPq5jS > >> ] (paywall) by involving two compounds as mediators- lithium iodide > and > >> water-along with fluffy carbon. > >> > >> No one appears to have previously combined all three compounds, at > least > >> for > >> the purpose of a lithium-air battery. The result, Grey's group > reported, > >> was > >> a battery that charged and recharged 2,000 times-a remarkable > achievement, > >> if true. A decade more of work would be required to resolve other > problems > >> with lithium-air, but one big obstacle was lifted. > >> > >> Both dissents, however, say that the compound does not have the > claimed > >> impact. They say the special additive used by Grey's group, lithium > iodide, > >> does not produce sufficient energy to force release of the air from > the > >> lithium hydroxide, and thus solve the recharging problem. > >> > >> "The breakthrough is not a breakthrough, and we are in a sense no > further > >> along in lithium air than we were," Venkat Viswanathan, a professor > at > >> Carnegie Mellon University and the lead author on one of the > dissents, told > >> Quartz. > >> > >> Grey has not responded to an email requesting a comment. > >> > >> Here is the dissent [ > >> http://science.sciencemag.org/content/352/6286/667.3 > >> ] led by Viswananthan. He wrote it with Vikram Pande, also at > >> Carnegie-Mellon; K.M. Abraham at Northeastern University; Alan Luntz > at the > >> Stanford Linear Accelerator Center; Bryan McCloskey at the University > of > >> California, Berkeley; and Dan Addison at Liox Power. Here is Grey's > >> response > >> to it [ > >> http://science.sciencemag.org/content/352/6286/667.4 > >> ]. And here is the second dissent [ > >> http://science.sciencemag.org/content/352/6286/667.1 > >> ], written by Yue Shen and Wang Zhang at Huazhong University; and > Shu-Lei > >> Chou and Shi-Xue Dou at Australia's University of Wollongong. Here is > >> Grey's > >> response to their [ > >> http://science.sciencemag.org/content/352/6286/667.2 > >> ] dissent. > >> [(c) qz.com] > >> ... > >> > >> > http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-10/30/lithium-air-breathing-bat > tery-electric-cars > >> Lithium-air 'breathing' battery makes long-distance electric cars > possible > >> Oct 30, 2015 - Tao Liu, Clare Grey and Gabriella Bocchetti ... An > efficient > >> lithium-oxygen (Li-O2) battery that can be recharged more than 2,000 > times > >> could make truly long-distance electric cars possible ... their > battery > >> includes a highly porous graphene electrode, made from one-atom-thick > >> sheets > >> of carbon atoms and an electrolyte made from the organic solvent > >> dimethoxyethane, mixed with the salt lithium iodide ... > >> ... > >> http://www.ch.cam.ac.uk/person/cpg27 > >> Professor Clare Grey FRS > >> > >> > >> > >> [dated] > >> > >> > http://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/26/lithium-air-batteries-with-5x-energy > -density-lithium-ion-batteries/ > >> Lithium-Air Batteries With 5x Energy Density Lithium-Ion Batteries > ... > >> Jan 26, 2016 - A new lithium-oxygen battery design based around the > use of > >> lithium superoxide (LiO2) - promising an energy density up to 5 times > >> higher > >> ... > >> ... > >> > >> > http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/lithium-air-battery-breakthou > gh-confirmed-energy-density.html > >> Breakthough in lithium-air batteries > >> Jan 26, 2016 ... (that's science-speak for "we proved our suspicion > that we > >> have indeed invented a lithium-air battery technology that works") > ... > >> ... > >> > >> > http://www.pcworld.com/article/2999884/fluffy-carbon-electrodes-bring-li > thium-air-batteries-closer-to-reality.html > >> Fluffy carbon electrodes bring lithium-air batteries closer to > reality > >> Oct 30, 2015 - Ten times more power than lithium ion -- but still ten > years > >> off: A fluffy carbon electrode has brought scientists at Cambridge > >> University a step closer to producing a workable lithium-air battery, > but > >> many technical challenges remain ... > >> ... > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-air_battery > >> The lithium-air battery, Li-air for short, is a metal-air battery > chemistry > >> that uses oxidation of lithium at the anode and reduction of oxygen > at the > >> cathode to induce ... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: > >> http://evdl.org/evln/ > >> > >> > >> {brucedp.150m.com} > >> > >> -- > >> View this message in context: > >> > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Prof-C > lare-Grey-defending-her-LiO2-fluffy-carbon-battery-paper-tp4681973.html > >> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive > at > >> Nabble.com. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > >> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org > > '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera > #1382 > > "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller > > "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. 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