Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[Paul Compton via EV]

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 at 23:29, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> The voltage on a lead-acid battery goes _up_ in cold weather, by the way.

A temperature compensated charger will use a higher charge voltage in
cold weather.

The open circuit voltage goes down with temperature, Lead Acid
typically has a thermal coefficient of about +0.2 mV per degree
Celcius

-- 
Paul Compton
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 3/28/22 10:23, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
I've got another data point to add to these observations. I still have 
the original battery in my 2011 leaf. I'm thinking I'd better swap it 
out before I get stalled somewhere...


Anyway, one thing that might be different from others' experiences is I 
always park outside, so the tiny solar panel is exposed to some sunlight 
every day. I wonder if the solar charger is keeping the battery from 
getting a deeper discharge ?


Trickle charging the 12v battery was the (only) purpose of the small 
solar panel on the rear spoiler in the delux models


Jay
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[Willie via EV]

Another factor is, as I recall, the timid Leaf regen.  "One pedal 
driving" is much more difficult than with an EV with aggressive regen.  
I found I was asking myself "Why are there brake complaints?" .  Then, I 
realized that friction braking may create a 12v load while regen likely 
does not.



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I've got another data point to add to these observations. I still have 
the original battery in my 2011 leaf. I'm thinking I'd better swap it 
out before I get stalled somewhere...


Anyway, one thing that might be different from others' experiences is I 
always park outside, so the tiny solar panel is exposed to some sunlight 
every day. I wonder if the solar charger is keeping the battery from 
getting a deeper discharge ?


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Jay Summet via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Jay Summet" 
Sent: 28-Mar-22 07:08:36
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) 
Recall



This is one of the reasons that Leaf's (at least that era...they may have made 
improvements on later models) chew through 12v accessory batteries.  They only 
rarely take them up to 14v for charging.  I don't know of a way to change any 
settings to resolve this.

An external battery tender or charger may help the batteries last longer, or 
AGM batteries may be a better match for the Leaf's charging/voltage profiles 
(my AGM has lasted 3 years, but so did the OEM battery...)

Jay

On 3/28/22 09:51, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Thanks Paul
I know it should be but I don’t know how to adjust the leaf dc dc converter. Do 
you ?
Best regards
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 28, 2022, at 8:00 AM, paul dove  wrote:

 The minimum charging voltage is 13.8 volts dc across the battery terminals, 
or at the output of the alternator. A single lead-acid cell starts to charge at 
anything over 2.25 volts. Since a 12 volt battery has six cells, any 12 volt 
lead-acid battery needs at least 13.8 volts to start to charge.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, March 27, 2022, 9:15 AM, mark hanson via EV  
wrote:

Hi Folks,



I checked the 12V aux voltage through the cigarette lighter socket with a
DVM and shows 13.0V during operation.  The low voltage storage codes over
time were caused by the vehicle sitting a long time and the ghost loads
dropping the battery voltage to 10V and had to recharge externally (also
sets low voltage codes when replacing the battery).I don't see *how* the
aux voltage operating at 13V has *any* effect on the brakes in *cold*
weather.  I'd love to see a technical explanation on this rather than "just
replace the good battery with a more expensive one".



Best regards,

Mark



From: mark hanson [mailto:markehans...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 10:08 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall



Hi Folks,



After seeing this recall, 46.9K Leafs 2013-2016 and having my brakes drop
out in the cold (apparently regen appears to shut off when cold
intermittently), I took it to the wheeler-dealer:

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0318/2013-2015-Nissan-Leaf-r
ecalled-for-braking-problem-46-000-vehicles-affected#:~:text=Nissan%20is%20r
ecalling%20more%20than,braking%20ability%20in%20cold%20weather.
<https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0318/2013-2015-Nissan-Leaf-
recalled-for-braking-problem-46-000-vehicles-affected#:~:text=Nissan%20is%20
recalling%20more%20than,braking%20ability%20in%20cold%20weather.=A%20Ni
ssan%20Leaf%20electric%20car,(January%2012%2C%202016>
=A%20Nissan%20Leaf%20electric%20car,(January%2012%2C%202016 ). I was
asked to report on the actual response (below)



The Roanoke VA Southern team Nissan dealer told me that the warranty expired
and had to charge me $250 for an hour of labor (I must be in the wrong
business) to read the software through the OBD-2 port and see if it had the
brake update.  I was told it had the latest update although I hadn't brought
it in before.  (In 2015 it was in for an air conditioner failure under
warranty.)  I was then told that the *12V Aux* battery is what was causing
the cold brake drop out *after* I printed out a photo of the red exclamation
point and temperature display at 25F *and* the recall notice, showed to
them.  (I guess they thought they would sell me a pricey battery).  I drove
it to Advance Auto and bought a new fancy Optima Yellow Top $330 battery to
replace the 2019 (Advance Auto battery I replaced still under warranty).
Since the present battery was still under warranty, they tested it and said
it was OK but gave me $189 store credit.



Dealer service dept response:

iPhone Message 3/8/22: "Hi This is Southern Team, we are calling because we
are looking over your vehicle.  Unfortunately what we are saying is you *do*
have the latest and greatest software installed to your vehicle regarding
the brakes and what we are noticing however is that your regular 12V battery
is registering 300 CCA to 397CCA and should be closer to 500CCA.  You also
have a bunch of low-voltage codes stored in the system from where we have
obviously plugged it in to perform a software update and see what software
v

Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[Jay Summet via EV]

This is one of the reasons that Leaf's (at least that era...they may 
have made improvements on later models) chew through 12v accessory 
batteries.  They only rarely take them up to 14v for charging.  I don't 
know of a way to change any settings to resolve this.


An external battery tender or charger may help the batteries last 
longer, or AGM batteries may be a better match for the Leaf's 
charging/voltage profiles (my AGM has lasted 3 years, but so did the OEM 
battery...)


Jay

On 3/28/22 09:51, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Thanks Paul
I know it should be but I don’t know how to adjust the leaf dc dc converter. Do 
you ?
Best regards
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 28, 2022, at 8:00 AM, paul dove  wrote:

 The minimum charging voltage is 13.8 volts dc across the battery terminals, 
or at the output of the alternator. A single lead-acid cell starts to charge at 
anything over 2.25 volts. Since a 12 volt battery has six cells, any 12 volt 
lead-acid battery needs at least 13.8 volts to start to charge.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, March 27, 2022, 9:15 AM, mark hanson via EV  
wrote:

Hi Folks,



I checked the 12V aux voltage through the cigarette lighter socket with a
DVM and shows 13.0V during operation.  The low voltage storage codes over
time were caused by the vehicle sitting a long time and the ghost loads
dropping the battery voltage to 10V and had to recharge externally (also
sets low voltage codes when replacing the battery).I don't see *how* the
aux voltage operating at 13V has *any* effect on the brakes in *cold*
weather.  I'd love to see a technical explanation on this rather than "just
replace the good battery with a more expensive one".



Best regards,

Mark



From: mark hanson [mailto:markehans...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 10:08 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall



Hi Folks,



After seeing this recall, 46.9K Leafs 2013-2016 and having my brakes drop
out in the cold (apparently regen appears to shut off when cold
intermittently), I took it to the wheeler-dealer:

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0318/2013-2015-Nissan-Leaf-r
ecalled-for-braking-problem-46-000-vehicles-affected#:~:text=Nissan%20is%20r
ecalling%20more%20than,braking%20ability%20in%20cold%20weather.

=A%20Nissan%20Leaf%20electric%20car,(January%2012%2C%202016 ). I was
asked to report on the actual response (below)



The Roanoke VA Southern team Nissan dealer told me that the warranty expired
and had to charge me $250 for an hour of labor (I must be in the wrong
business) to read the software through the OBD-2 port and see if it had the
brake update.  I was told it had the latest update although I hadn't brought
it in before.  (In 2015 it was in for an air conditioner failure under
warranty.)  I was then told that the *12V Aux* battery is what was causing
the cold brake drop out *after* I printed out a photo of the red exclamation
point and temperature display at 25F *and* the recall notice, showed to
them.  (I guess they thought they would sell me a pricey battery).  I drove
it to Advance Auto and bought a new fancy Optima Yellow Top $330 battery to
replace the 2019 (Advance Auto battery I replaced still under warranty).
Since the present battery was still under warranty, they tested it and said
it was OK but gave me $189 store credit.



Dealer service dept response:

iPhone Message 3/8/22: "Hi This is Southern Team, we are calling because we
are looking over your vehicle.  Unfortunately what we are saying is you *do*
have the latest and greatest software installed to your vehicle regarding
the brakes and what we are noticing however is that your regular 12V battery
is registering 300 CCA to 397CCA and should be closer to 500CCA.  You also
have a bunch of low-voltage codes stored in the system from where we have
obviously plugged it in to perform a software update and see what software
version was installed last.  We think that the battery is what's causing the
light on the dash and resistance with your brakes - is actually related to
where your system doesn't have the appropriate amount of electrical current
running through it so they're recommending that you actually replace your
battery."



The printout after service reads in caps: "A CUSTOMER IS REQUESTING NEW
BRAKING SOFTWARE TO BE UPLOADED.  CUSTOMER BELIEVES THIS WILL CORRECT THE
CONCERN OF THE TRIANGLE LIGHT POPULATING AT TIMES WHEN BRAKING, FEELS LIKE
BRAKE BOOSTER ISN'T WORKING, ESPECIALLY WHEN BELOW FREEZING.  TAKES A LOT OF
EFFORT TO BRAKE --- UPLOAD SOFTWARE ONLY - 1.0  NBE INSPECTED VEHICLE AND
FOUND LATEST SOFTWARE FOR BRAKE SYSTEM ALREADY INSTALLED - LOW VOLT 

Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[Mark Hanson via EV]

Thanks Paul
I know it should be but I don’t know how to adjust the leaf dc dc converter. Do 
you ?
Best regards 
Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 28, 2022, at 8:00 AM, paul dove  wrote:

 The minimum charging voltage is 13.8 volts dc across the battery terminals, 
or at the output of the alternator. A single lead-acid cell starts to charge at 
anything over 2.25 volts. Since a 12 volt battery has six cells, any 12 volt 
lead-acid battery needs at least 13.8 volts to start to charge.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sunday, March 27, 2022, 9:15 AM, mark hanson via EV  
wrote:

Hi Folks,



I checked the 12V aux voltage through the cigarette lighter socket with a
DVM and shows 13.0V during operation.  The low voltage storage codes over
time were caused by the vehicle sitting a long time and the ghost loads
dropping the battery voltage to 10V and had to recharge externally (also
sets low voltage codes when replacing the battery).I don't see *how* the
aux voltage operating at 13V has *any* effect on the brakes in *cold*
weather.  I'd love to see a technical explanation on this rather than "just
replace the good battery with a more expensive one".



Best regards,

Mark 



From: mark hanson [mailto:markehans...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 10:08 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall



Hi Folks,



After seeing this recall, 46.9K Leafs 2013-2016 and having my brakes drop
out in the cold (apparently regen appears to shut off when cold
intermittently), I took it to the wheeler-dealer:

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0318/2013-2015-Nissan-Leaf-r
ecalled-for-braking-problem-46-000-vehicles-affected#:~:text=Nissan%20is%20r
ecalling%20more%20than,braking%20ability%20in%20cold%20weather.

=A%20Nissan%20Leaf%20electric%20car,(January%2012%2C%202016 ). I was
asked to report on the actual response (below)



The Roanoke VA Southern team Nissan dealer told me that the warranty expired
and had to charge me $250 for an hour of labor (I must be in the wrong
business) to read the software through the OBD-2 port and see if it had the
brake update.  I was told it had the latest update although I hadn't brought
it in before.  (In 2015 it was in for an air conditioner failure under
warranty.)  I was then told that the *12V Aux* battery is what was causing
the cold brake drop out *after* I printed out a photo of the red exclamation
point and temperature display at 25F *and* the recall notice, showed to
them.  (I guess they thought they would sell me a pricey battery).  I drove
it to Advance Auto and bought a new fancy Optima Yellow Top $330 battery to
replace the 2019 (Advance Auto battery I replaced still under warranty).
Since the present battery was still under warranty, they tested it and said
it was OK but gave me $189 store credit.



Dealer service dept response:

iPhone Message 3/8/22: "Hi This is Southern Team, we are calling because we
are looking over your vehicle.  Unfortunately what we are saying is you *do*
have the latest and greatest software installed to your vehicle regarding
the brakes and what we are noticing however is that your regular 12V battery
is registering 300 CCA to 397CCA and should be closer to 500CCA.  You also
have a bunch of low-voltage codes stored in the system from where we have
obviously plugged it in to perform a software update and see what software
version was installed last.  We think that the battery is what's causing the
light on the dash and resistance with your brakes - is actually related to
where your system doesn't have the appropriate amount of electrical current
running through it so they're recommending that you actually replace your
battery."



The printout after service reads in caps: "A CUSTOMER IS REQUESTING NEW
BRAKING SOFTWARE TO BE UPLOADED.  CUSTOMER BELIEVES THIS WILL CORRECT THE
CONCERN OF THE TRIANGLE LIGHT POPULATING AT TIMES WHEN BRAKING, FEELS LIKE
BRAKE BOOSTER ISN'T WORKING, ESPECIALLY WHEN BELOW FREEZING.  TAKES A LOT OF
EFFORT TO BRAKE --- UPLOAD SOFTWARE ONLY - 1.0  NBE INSPECTED VEHICLE AND
FOUND LATEST SOFTWARE FOR BRAKE SYSTEM ALREADY INSTALLED - LOW VOLT CODES
STORED - REC REPLC 12V, 381 CPN $250

41859 1.00 CUSTOMER REQUEST WE PERFORM A SOFTWARE UPDATE TO THE BRAKING
SYSTEM FOUND ONLINE WHERE IT WOULD FIX THEIR CONCERN.  CHECK BRAKE PART
NUMBER AND ADVISE CUSTOMER THERE IS NO UPDATE AVAILABLE FOR THE BRAKING
SYSTEM - IT HAS ALREADY BEEN REPROGRAMMED ELSEWHERE.  DID FIND MULTIPLE LOW
VOLTAGE CODES STORED DUE TO WEAK 12V BATTERY.  THIS CAN CAUSE THE SAME
CONCERNS YOU HAVE - RECOMMEND BATTERY REPLACEMENT."



Question: has anyone heard of with this recall with the 12V battery 

Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[Bill Dube via EV]

The float voltage is 13.5 to 13.8 volts. That is what you would expect 
to see on the battery terminals when the car has been running for 
awhile. Charging begins at about 13 volts, BTW. All these voltages are 
at 25 Celsius. Colder means higher charging voltage (and float voltage.) 
Hotter means lower charging voltage, and of course float voltage.


However, there is some distance and more than a few connections between 
the battery and the cigar lighter. There is certainly voltage drop along 
the way. Even so, I would be slightly concerned if I read 13.0 volts on 
the cigar outlet. A bit toward the low side when the car has been running...


Mark would be wiser to use the app "Leaf Spy" through the OBD connector 
to find out what the accessory system voltage is. At least what the car 
ECU is getting.

Bill D.

On 3/29/2022 12:59 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

The minimum charging voltage is 13.8 volts dc across the battery terminals, or 
at the output of the alternator. A single lead-acid cell starts to charge at 
anything over 2.25 volts. Since a 12 volt battery has six cells, any 12 volt 
lead-acid battery needs at least 13.8 volts to start to charge.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, March 27, 2022, 9:15 AM, mark hanson via EV  
wrote:

Hi Folks,

  


I checked the 12V aux voltage through the cigarette lighter socket with a
DVM and shows 13.0V during operation.  The low voltage storage codes over
time were caused by the vehicle sitting a long time and the ghost loads
dropping the battery voltage to 10V and had to recharge externally (also
sets low voltage codes when replacing the battery).    I don't see *how* the
aux voltage operating at 13V has *any* effect on the brakes in *cold*
weather.  I'd love to see a technical explanation on this rather than "just
replace the good battery with a more expensive one".

  


Best regards,

Mark

  



___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[paul dove via EV]

The minimum charging voltage is 13.8 volts dc across the battery terminals, or 
at the output of the alternator. A single lead-acid cell starts to charge at 
anything over 2.25 volts. Since a 12 volt battery has six cells, any 12 volt 
lead-acid battery needs at least 13.8 volts to start to charge.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, March 27, 2022, 9:15 AM, mark hanson via EV  
wrote:

Hi Folks,

 

I checked the 12V aux voltage through the cigarette lighter socket with a
DVM and shows 13.0V during operation.  The low voltage storage codes over
time were caused by the vehicle sitting a long time and the ghost loads
dropping the battery voltage to 10V and had to recharge externally (also
sets low voltage codes when replacing the battery).    I don't see *how* the
aux voltage operating at 13V has *any* effect on the brakes in *cold*
weather.  I'd love to see a technical explanation on this rather than "just
replace the good battery with a more expensive one".

 

Best regards,

Mark 

 

From: mark hanson [mailto:markehans...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 10:08 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

 

Hi Folks,

 

After seeing this recall, 46.9K Leafs 2013-2016 and having my brakes drop
out in the cold (apparently regen appears to shut off when cold
intermittently), I took it to the wheeler-dealer:

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0318/2013-2015-Nissan-Leaf-r
ecalled-for-braking-problem-46-000-vehicles-affected#:~:text=Nissan%20is%20r
ecalling%20more%20than,braking%20ability%20in%20cold%20weather.

=A%20Nissan%20Leaf%20electric%20car,(January%2012%2C%202016 ). I was
asked to report on the actual response (below)

 

The Roanoke VA Southern team Nissan dealer told me that the warranty expired
and had to charge me $250 for an hour of labor (I must be in the wrong
business) to read the software through the OBD-2 port and see if it had the
brake update.  I was told it had the latest update although I hadn't brought
it in before.  (In 2015 it was in for an air conditioner failure under
warranty.)  I was then told that the *12V Aux* battery is what was causing
the cold brake drop out *after* I printed out a photo of the red exclamation
point and temperature display at 25F *and* the recall notice, showed to
them.  (I guess they thought they would sell me a pricey battery).  I drove
it to Advance Auto and bought a new fancy Optima Yellow Top $330 battery to
replace the 2019 (Advance Auto battery I replaced still under warranty).
Since the present battery was still under warranty, they tested it and said
it was OK but gave me $189 store credit.

 

Dealer service dept response:

iPhone Message 3/8/22: "Hi This is Southern Team, we are calling because we
are looking over your vehicle.  Unfortunately what we are saying is you *do*
have the latest and greatest software installed to your vehicle regarding
the brakes and what we are noticing however is that your regular 12V battery
is registering 300 CCA to 397CCA and should be closer to 500CCA.  You also
have a bunch of low-voltage codes stored in the system from where we have
obviously plugged it in to perform a software update and see what software
version was installed last.  We think that the battery is what's causing the
light on the dash and resistance with your brakes - is actually related to
where your system doesn't have the appropriate amount of electrical current
running through it so they're recommending that you actually replace your
battery."

 

The printout after service reads in caps: "A CUSTOMER IS REQUESTING NEW
BRAKING SOFTWARE TO BE UPLOADED.  CUSTOMER BELIEVES THIS WILL CORRECT THE
CONCERN OF THE TRIANGLE LIGHT POPULATING AT TIMES WHEN BRAKING, FEELS LIKE
BRAKE BOOSTER ISN'T WORKING, ESPECIALLY WHEN BELOW FREEZING.  TAKES A LOT OF
EFFORT TO BRAKE --- UPLOAD SOFTWARE ONLY - 1.0  NBE INSPECTED VEHICLE AND
FOUND LATEST SOFTWARE FOR BRAKE SYSTEM ALREADY INSTALLED - LOW VOLT CODES
STORED - REC REPLC 12V, 381 CPN $250

41859 1.00 CUSTOMER REQUEST WE PERFORM A SOFTWARE UPDATE TO THE BRAKING
SYSTEM FOUND ONLINE WHERE IT WOULD FIX THEIR CONCERN.  CHECK BRAKE PART
NUMBER AND ADVISE CUSTOMER THERE IS NO UPDATE AVAILABLE FOR THE BRAKING
SYSTEM - IT HAS ALREADY BEEN REPROGRAMMED ELSEWHERE.  DID FIND MULTIPLE LOW
VOLTAGE CODES STORED DUE TO WEAK 12V BATTERY.  THIS CAN CAUSE THE SAME
CONCERNS YOU HAVE - RECOMMEND BATTERY REPLACEMENT."

 

Question: has anyone heard of with this recall with the 12V battery causing
the braking regen to drop out on cold weather - or is this *junk science* ?

 

 

Have a renewable energy day,

 

Mark

 

Mark E. Hanson

184 Vista Lane

Fincastle, VA 24090

Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Bill is right, the DC-DC cannot be expected to provide all the power,
especially for transient loads.  Both the brake booster and the power
steering can draw large surges of power, this is one of the reasons why
most EVs still have a big old lead-acid battery. (bus stability)

In a normal ICE car, you know when your 12v is on its last legs because it
won't crank the starter.  You have no such early warning in an EV or many
Hybrids.   If your 12v is more than a few years old and has been subjected
to deep discharges and low voltages, it's likely heavily sulfated and
cannot provide a "clean" 12v voltage to the car.  I'd replace it first and
then see if the brake problems go away.  I bet you they will!

On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 3:29 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> The voltage on a lead-acid battery goes _up_ in cold weather, by the way.
>
> Under load in cold weather, however, the higher impedance will tend to
> make the 12 volt battery voltage sag under load.
>
> But the the vehicle DC-DC is working when the brake issue arises, so the
> battery will play a smaller role. Worth looking at the 12 volt system
> voltage when the brakes are applied.
>
> Perhaps there are additional loads such as power steering load that will
> cause the 12 volt sag when the brake boost becomes an issue.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 3/28/2022 3:15 AM, mark hanson via EV wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> >
> >
> > I checked the 12V aux voltage through the cigarette lighter socket with a
> > DVM and shows 13.0V during operation.  The low voltage storage codes over
> > time were caused by the vehicle sitting a long time and the ghost loads
> > dropping the battery voltage to 10V and had to recharge externally (also
> > sets low voltage codes when replacing the battery).I don't see *how*
> the
> > aux voltage operating at 13V has *any* effect on the brakes in *cold*
> > weather.  I'd love to see a technical explanation on this rather than
> "just
> > replace the good battery with a more expensive one".
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mark hanson [mailto:markehans...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 10:08 PM
> > To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> > Subject: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> >
> >
> > After seeing this recall, 46.9K Leafs 2013-2016 and having my brakes drop
> > out in the cold (apparently regen appears to shut off when cold
> > intermittently), I took it to the wheeler-dealer:
> >
> >
> https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0318/2013-2015-Nissan-Leaf-r
> >
> ecalled-for-braking-problem-46-000-vehicles-affected#:~:text=Nissan%20is%20r
> > ecalling%20more%20than,braking%20ability%20in%20cold%20weather.
> > <
> https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0318/2013-2015-Nissan-Leaf-
> >
> recalled-for-braking-problem-46-000-vehicles-affected#:~:text=Nissan%20is%20
> >
> recalling%20more%20than,braking%20ability%20in%20cold%20weather.=A%20Ni
> > ssan%20Leaf%20electric%20car,(January%2012%2C%202016>
> > =A%20Nissan%20Leaf%20electric%20car,(January%2012%2C%202016 ). I was
> > asked to report on the actual response (below)
> >
> >
> >
> > The Roanoke VA Southern team Nissan dealer told me that the warranty
> expired
> > and had to charge me $250 for an hour of labor (I must be in the wrong
> > business) to read the software through the OBD-2 port and see if it had
> the
> > brake update.  I was told it had the latest update although I hadn't
> brought
> > it in before.  (In 2015 it was in for an air conditioner failure under
> > warranty.)  I was then told that the *12V Aux* battery is what was
> causing
> > the cold brake drop out *after* I printed out a photo of the red
> exclamation
> > point and temperature display at 25F *and* the recall notice, showed to
> > them.  (I guess they thought they would sell me a pricey battery).  I
> drove
> > it to Advance Auto and bought a new fancy Optima Yellow Top $330 battery
> to
> > replace the 2019 (Advance Auto battery I replaced still under warranty).
> > Since the present battery was still under warranty, they tested it and
> said
> > it was OK but gave me $189 store credit.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dealer service dept response:
> >
> > iPhone Message 3/8/22: "Hi This is Southern Team, we are calling because
> we
> > are looking over your vehicle.  Unfortunately what we are saying is you
> *do*
> > have the latest and greatest software installed to your vehicle regarding
> > the brakes and what we are noticing however is that your regular 12V
> battery
> > is registering 300 CCA to 397CCA and should be closer to 500CCA.  You
> also
> > have a bunch of low-voltage codes stored in the system from where we have
> > obviously plugged it in to perform a software update and see what
> software
> > version was installed last.  We think that the battery is what's causing
> the
> > light on the dash and resistance with your brakes - is actually related
> to
> > where your system doesn't have the 

Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[Bill Dube via EV]

The voltage on a lead-acid battery goes _up_ in cold weather, by the way.

Under load in cold weather, however, the higher impedance will tend to 
make the 12 volt battery voltage sag under load.


But the the vehicle DC-DC is working when the brake issue arises, so the 
battery will play a smaller role. Worth looking at the 12 volt system 
voltage when the brakes are applied.


Perhaps there are additional loads such as power steering load that will 
cause the 12 volt sag when the brake boost becomes an issue.


Bill D.

On 3/28/2022 3:15 AM, mark hanson via EV wrote:

Hi Folks,

  


I checked the 12V aux voltage through the cigarette lighter socket with a
DVM and shows 13.0V during operation.  The low voltage storage codes over
time were caused by the vehicle sitting a long time and the ghost loads
dropping the battery voltage to 10V and had to recharge externally (also
sets low voltage codes when replacing the battery).I don't see *how* the
aux voltage operating at 13V has *any* effect on the brakes in *cold*
weather.  I'd love to see a technical explanation on this rather than "just
replace the good battery with a more expensive one".

  


Best regards,

Mark

  


From: mark hanson [mailto:markehans...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 10:08 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

  


Hi Folks,

  


After seeing this recall, 46.9K Leafs 2013-2016 and having my brakes drop
out in the cold (apparently regen appears to shut off when cold
intermittently), I took it to the wheeler-dealer:

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0318/2013-2015-Nissan-Leaf-r
ecalled-for-braking-problem-46-000-vehicles-affected#:~:text=Nissan%20is%20r
ecalling%20more%20than,braking%20ability%20in%20cold%20weather.

=A%20Nissan%20Leaf%20electric%20car,(January%2012%2C%202016 ). I was
asked to report on the actual response (below)

  


The Roanoke VA Southern team Nissan dealer told me that the warranty expired
and had to charge me $250 for an hour of labor (I must be in the wrong
business) to read the software through the OBD-2 port and see if it had the
brake update.  I was told it had the latest update although I hadn't brought
it in before.  (In 2015 it was in for an air conditioner failure under
warranty.)  I was then told that the *12V Aux* battery is what was causing
the cold brake drop out *after* I printed out a photo of the red exclamation
point and temperature display at 25F *and* the recall notice, showed to
them.  (I guess they thought they would sell me a pricey battery).  I drove
it to Advance Auto and bought a new fancy Optima Yellow Top $330 battery to
replace the 2019 (Advance Auto battery I replaced still under warranty).
Since the present battery was still under warranty, they tested it and said
it was OK but gave me $189 store credit.

  


Dealer service dept response:

iPhone Message 3/8/22: "Hi This is Southern Team, we are calling because we
are looking over your vehicle.  Unfortunately what we are saying is you *do*
have the latest and greatest software installed to your vehicle regarding
the brakes and what we are noticing however is that your regular 12V battery
is registering 300 CCA to 397CCA and should be closer to 500CCA.  You also
have a bunch of low-voltage codes stored in the system from where we have
obviously plugged it in to perform a software update and see what software
version was installed last.  We think that the battery is what's causing the
light on the dash and resistance with your brakes - is actually related to
where your system doesn't have the appropriate amount of electrical current
running through it so they're recommending that you actually replace your
battery."

  


The printout after service reads in caps: "A CUSTOMER IS REQUESTING NEW
BRAKING SOFTWARE TO BE UPLOADED.  CUSTOMER BELIEVES THIS WILL CORRECT THE
CONCERN OF THE TRIANGLE LIGHT POPULATING AT TIMES WHEN BRAKING, FEELS LIKE
BRAKE BOOSTER ISN'T WORKING, ESPECIALLY WHEN BELOW FREEZING.  TAKES A LOT OF
EFFORT TO BRAKE --- UPLOAD SOFTWARE ONLY - 1.0  NBE INSPECTED VEHICLE AND
FOUND LATEST SOFTWARE FOR BRAKE SYSTEM ALREADY INSTALLED - LOW VOLT CODES
STORED - REC REPLC 12V, 381 CPN $250

41859 1.00 CUSTOMER REQUEST WE PERFORM A SOFTWARE UPDATE TO THE BRAKING
SYSTEM FOUND ONLINE WHERE IT WOULD FIX THEIR CONCERN.  CHECK BRAKE PART
NUMBER AND ADVISE CUSTOMER THERE IS NO UPDATE AVAILABLE FOR THE BRAKING
SYSTEM - IT HAS ALREADY BEEN REPROGRAMMED ELSEWHERE.  DID FIND MULTIPLE LOW
VOLTAGE CODES STORED DUE TO WEAK 12V BATTERY.  THIS CAN CAUSE THE SAME
CONCERNS YOU HAVE - RECOMMEND BATTERY REPLACEMENT."

  


Question: has anyone heard of with this recall with the 12V 

[EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[mark hanson via EV]

Hi Folks,

 

I checked the 12V aux voltage through the cigarette lighter socket with a
DVM and shows 13.0V during operation.  The low voltage storage codes over
time were caused by the vehicle sitting a long time and the ghost loads
dropping the battery voltage to 10V and had to recharge externally (also
sets low voltage codes when replacing the battery).I don't see *how* the
aux voltage operating at 13V has *any* effect on the brakes in *cold*
weather.  I'd love to see a technical explanation on this rather than "just
replace the good battery with a more expensive one".

 

Best regards,

Mark 

 

From: mark hanson [mailto:markehans...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 10:08 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

 

Hi Folks,

 

After seeing this recall, 46.9K Leafs 2013-2016 and having my brakes drop
out in the cold (apparently regen appears to shut off when cold
intermittently), I took it to the wheeler-dealer:

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0318/2013-2015-Nissan-Leaf-r
ecalled-for-braking-problem-46-000-vehicles-affected#:~:text=Nissan%20is%20r
ecalling%20more%20than,braking%20ability%20in%20cold%20weather.

=A%20Nissan%20Leaf%20electric%20car,(January%2012%2C%202016 ). I was
asked to report on the actual response (below)

 

The Roanoke VA Southern team Nissan dealer told me that the warranty expired
and had to charge me $250 for an hour of labor (I must be in the wrong
business) to read the software through the OBD-2 port and see if it had the
brake update.  I was told it had the latest update although I hadn't brought
it in before.  (In 2015 it was in for an air conditioner failure under
warranty.)  I was then told that the *12V Aux* battery is what was causing
the cold brake drop out *after* I printed out a photo of the red exclamation
point and temperature display at 25F *and* the recall notice, showed to
them.  (I guess they thought they would sell me a pricey battery).  I drove
it to Advance Auto and bought a new fancy Optima Yellow Top $330 battery to
replace the 2019 (Advance Auto battery I replaced still under warranty).
Since the present battery was still under warranty, they tested it and said
it was OK but gave me $189 store credit.

 

Dealer service dept response:

iPhone Message 3/8/22: "Hi This is Southern Team, we are calling because we
are looking over your vehicle.  Unfortunately what we are saying is you *do*
have the latest and greatest software installed to your vehicle regarding
the brakes and what we are noticing however is that your regular 12V battery
is registering 300 CCA to 397CCA and should be closer to 500CCA.  You also
have a bunch of low-voltage codes stored in the system from where we have
obviously plugged it in to perform a software update and see what software
version was installed last.  We think that the battery is what's causing the
light on the dash and resistance with your brakes - is actually related to
where your system doesn't have the appropriate amount of electrical current
running through it so they're recommending that you actually replace your
battery."

 

The printout after service reads in caps: "A CUSTOMER IS REQUESTING NEW
BRAKING SOFTWARE TO BE UPLOADED.  CUSTOMER BELIEVES THIS WILL CORRECT THE
CONCERN OF THE TRIANGLE LIGHT POPULATING AT TIMES WHEN BRAKING, FEELS LIKE
BRAKE BOOSTER ISN'T WORKING, ESPECIALLY WHEN BELOW FREEZING.  TAKES A LOT OF
EFFORT TO BRAKE --- UPLOAD SOFTWARE ONLY - 1.0  NBE INSPECTED VEHICLE AND
FOUND LATEST SOFTWARE FOR BRAKE SYSTEM ALREADY INSTALLED - LOW VOLT CODES
STORED - REC REPLC 12V, 381 CPN $250

41859 1.00 CUSTOMER REQUEST WE PERFORM A SOFTWARE UPDATE TO THE BRAKING
SYSTEM FOUND ONLINE WHERE IT WOULD FIX THEIR CONCERN.  CHECK BRAKE PART
NUMBER AND ADVISE CUSTOMER THERE IS NO UPDATE AVAILABLE FOR THE BRAKING
SYSTEM - IT HAS ALREADY BEEN REPROGRAMMED ELSEWHERE.  DID FIND MULTIPLE LOW
VOLTAGE CODES STORED DUE TO WEAK 12V BATTERY.  THIS CAN CAUSE THE SAME
CONCERNS YOU HAVE - RECOMMEND BATTERY REPLACEMENT."

 

Question: has anyone heard of with this recall with the 12V battery causing
the braking regen to drop out on cold weather - or is this *junk science* ?

 

 

Have a renewable energy day,

 

Mark

 

Mark E. Hanson

184 Vista Lane

Fincastle, VA 24090

540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell

REEVA: community service RE & EV project club

Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)

UL Certified PV Installer

My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh 

REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 

Fincastle Solar Weather Station
 

 

-- next