Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)
Let me add that the percentage of recycled batteries is not the big problem, but those that ARE recycled. As you say, much gets recycled in other countries where there are weak laws, and lots of emissions. But even if you look in this country, the requirements are still weak enough to cause major problems in nearby communities. For example, even in "tough" Southern California, Exide was allowed to continue contaminating the nearby community for years, creating what may be an urban "Love Canal". Properties surrounding the facility for quite a distance are contaminated. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 24, 2018, at 7:07 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV > wrote: > >> On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote: >> >> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being >> recycled. > > Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply, > you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured > replaces an existing lead battery. Obviously that's not the case, so of > course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream. > > To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide > increases about 3.5 percent. The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every > one of them has a lead battery. > > At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible. > I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard > workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy > batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port. > > Do you work in an office? In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS > at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the > trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens. I'm > sure I probably missed the majority of them. > > It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery > recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other > recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling. In many cases these > nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be > bypassed with a small cash payment. Thousands of dirt-poor people work in > these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning > themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day. How is this > accounted for? Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other > country, not ours? And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the > batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back? > > Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries, > and thank goodness for it. But what are the consequences for not using it? > Nobody is checking your trash. In the end it's down to individual > responsibility. Good luck finding much of that, outside of folks on this > list. > > I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the > years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own > observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it. > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA > EVDL Administrator > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not > reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my > email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)
98% recyclable, not 98% recycled. On 24 January 2018 at 15:07, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: > On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > >> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being >> recycled. > > Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply, > you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured > replaces an existing lead battery. Obviously that's not the case, so of > course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream. > > To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide > increases about 3.5 percent. The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every > one of them has a lead battery. > > At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible. > I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard > workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy > batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port. > > Do you work in an office? In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS > at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the > trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens. I'm > sure I probably missed the majority of them. > > It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery > recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other > recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling. In many cases these > nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be > bypassed with a small cash payment. Thousands of dirt-poor people work in > these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning > themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day. How is this > accounted for? Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other > country, not ours? And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the > batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back? > > Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries, > and thank goodness for it. But what are the consequences for not using it? > Nobody is checking your trash. In the end it's down to individual > responsibility. Good luck finding much of that, outside of folks on this > list. > > I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the > years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own > observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it. > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA > EVDL Administrator > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not > reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my > email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > -- Paul Compton www.morini-mania.co.uk www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)
On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being > recycled. Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply, you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured replaces an existing lead battery. Obviously that's not the case, so of course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream. To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide increases about 3.5 percent. The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every one of them has a lead battery. At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible. I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port. Do you work in an office? In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens. I'm sure I probably missed the majority of them. It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling. In many cases these nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be bypassed with a small cash payment. Thousands of dirt-poor people work in these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day. How is this accounted for? Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other country, not ours? And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back? Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries, and thank goodness for it. But what are the consequences for not using it? Nobody is checking your trash. In the end it's down to individual responsibility. Good luck finding much of that, outside of folks on this list. I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)
Lee, I think this 98% recycled is a case of very carefully drawing the envelope. I believe it only accounts for batteries that make it though the front gate of the recycling facility. Here is why: According to the International Lead Association's figures, lead-acid batteries use 85% of all the lead produced form all sources. (This percentage goes up a touch with each passing year because lead is used in fewer other products.) About 50% of the lead produced is mined, and 50% comes from recycled lead. This is also directly from the ILA figures. This ~50% recycled fraction has been quite steady for quite a few years. https://www.ila-lead.org/lead-facts/lead-recycling If _none_ of the lead used for other than lead-acid batteries is recycled but ends up in the land fill, (not true, but bear with me) where is the remaining 35% of the lead used for lead acid batteries going? Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries is _not_ being recycled. If they were recycled at 98%, there would be at least 83% of the lead production would be from recycled lead from lead-acid batteries. Only 50% comes from recycled lead. The figures just don't add up. At least 35% of lead-acid batteries are ending up in the land fill. Just doing basic mass balance accounting using the ILA figures. Indeed, an entire EV's worth of batteries is more likely to end up at the recycler than an alarm battery, but the 98% I believe is "creative accounting" at best. Bill D. On 1/23/2018 11:40 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote: Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on lead acid batteries. The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are huge, contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which there is no safe exposure. Lead can certainly be bad for people and the environment. But then, so can the materials in just about any battery. The key lies in *responsible* manufacturing, handling and recycling. Lead-acid batteries have been around so long that there are laws and procedures (in most developed countries) that prohibit bad practices. Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries. No other battery comes close. The majority of them are (sadly) thrown out as trash and wind up in landfills. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
