Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required (was: Leaf Chargers)

2016-01-20 Thread Mike Nickerson via EV 
If everyone is following the rules, you shouldn't need that. From the outlet, 
you should be able to assume the wiring behind it.  You could have a 15A outlet 
with 20A wiring, but I wouldn't try to draw 16A from it.  While the wiring 
could take it, the outlet isn't rated for it.

Tesla has a system kind of what you describe.  Their charging cord has 
changeable ends.  From the plug installed, they know the voltage and current 
capability they should expect.  They draw 80% of the rated  current.

While ramping up the current, they watch the voltage.  If it drops too much, 
they back off the current and warn that the wiring has a problem or an 
extension cord is being used.  It then remembers that maximum current for the 
next time it charges at that location.

Mike



On January 20, 2016 7:43:06 AM MST, Seth Rothenberg via EV  
wrote:
>I have been thinking (dangerous I know)
>Is there a way for an instrument (live ohmmeter / ammeter)
>or an electronic circuit to recognize the gauge (and surmise
>the amperage protection likely in place) ?
>
>eg, measuring ohms from neutral to ground,
>(for 120 circuits) or doing a millisecond high-load
>test to see voltage drop?
>
>(I'm not an Electrician or an EE, but I have faith
>in their ingenuity :-)
>
>
>Where would i need this?
>For example, I got permission to charge from an inside outlet
>at a small building under construction.   no idea at this time
>if it is 20a.(In this case, I could bring my circuit ID tool
>and look in the panel but don't need to at level 1 :-)
>(I got my EVSE cable yesterday ! :-)
>
>
>
>On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 3:28 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
>wrote:
>> Paul,
>>
>> There are a number of places in your home that are _required_ by the
>> national electrical code to have dedicated 20 amp circuits for the
>120V
>> receptacles.
>> There are at a minimum five (5) 20 amp 120V receptacle circuits in a
>modern
>> house:
>>
>https://dbs.idaho.gov/programs/electrical/publications/2014_Homeowner_guide_brochure.pdf
>> Sometimes, in a low-cost tract house without a garage there are less,
>(and
>> in older homes there could be fewer) but typically there are quite a
>few
>> more. The places that you will find additional dedicated 20 amp
>receptacles
>> for; the microwave, the garbage disposal, occasionally the
>dishwasher, etc.
>> Often, the savvy custom home builder will call for upgrades on 20 amp
>120V
>> receptacles for the patio, pool, workshop area, green house, deck,
>workout
>> area, home entertainment area, basement, etc.
>>
>> You will notice that the code requires a 20 amp circuit for the
>garage, were
>> your EV is likely to be parked.
>>
>> In commercial buildings, typically _all_ of the 120V receptacles are
>20 amp.
>>
>> I used to be an electrician, many years ago. I wired (and rewired)
>> _countless_ houses. :-)
>>
>> Bill D.
>>
>>
>> On 1/19/2016 2:56 PM, dovepa via EV wrote:
>>>
>>> A 120volt outlet is usually only rated for 15 amps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required (was: Leaf Chargers)

2016-01-20 Thread dovepa via EV 
You should not exceed the rating on your breaker in the circuit. It is sized 
for the wire installed in the walls.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Seth Rothenberg via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/20/2016  8:43 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Bill Dube <billd...@killacycle.com>, Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp 
receptacles are required (was: Leaf
Chargers) 
I have been thinking (dangerous I know)
Is there a way for an instrument (live ohmmeter / ammeter)
or an electronic circuit to recognize the gauge (and surmise
the amperage protection likely in place) ?

eg, measuring ohms from neutral to ground,
(for 120 circuits) or doing a millisecond high-load
test to see voltage drop?

(I'm not an Electrician or an EE, but I have faith
in their ingenuity :-)


Where would i need this?
For example, I got permission to charge from an inside outlet
at a small building under construction.   no idea at this time
if it is 20a.    (In this case, I could bring my circuit ID tool
and look in the panel but don't need to at level 1 :-)
(I got my EVSE cable yesterday ! :-)



On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 3:28 AM, Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> There are a number of places in your home that are _required_ by the
> national electrical code to have dedicated 20 amp circuits for the 120V
> receptacles.
> There are at a minimum five (5) 20 amp 120V receptacle circuits in a modern
> house:
> https://dbs.idaho.gov/programs/electrical/publications/2014_Homeowner_guide_brochure.pdf
> Sometimes, in a low-cost tract house without a garage there are less, (and
> in older homes there could be fewer) but typically there are quite a few
> more. The places that you will find additional dedicated 20 amp receptacles
> for; the microwave, the garbage disposal, occasionally the dishwasher, etc.
> Often, the savvy custom home builder will call for upgrades on 20 amp 120V
> receptacles for the patio, pool, workshop area, green house, deck, workout
> area, home entertainment area, basement, etc.
>
> You will notice that the code requires a 20 amp circuit for the garage, were
> your EV is likely to be parked.
>
> In commercial buildings, typically _all_ of the 120V receptacles are 20 amp.
>
> I used to be an electrician, many years ago. I wired (and rewired)
> _countless_ houses. :-)
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 1/19/2016 2:56 PM, dovepa via EV wrote:
>>
>> A 120volt outlet is usually only rated for 15 amps.
>>
>>
>>
>
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required (was: Leaf Chargers)

2016-01-20 Thread dovepa via EV 
Better check the wire and breaker before changing outlets.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Mike Nickerson via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/20/2016  8:20 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Bill Dube <billd...@killacycle.com>, Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp 
receptacles are required (was: Leaf
Chargers) 
While the circuit in the garage is probably 20A, it may be wired with 15A 
outlets.  They are pretty easy to change, though.

If I were going to charge an EV on a 120V outlet regularly, I would probably 
change it anyway.  Most home construction uses light duty outlets that aren't 
built to take the load for hours per day.  Change it to a good heavy duty 
outlet and it will work much better.

Mike


On January 20, 2016 1:28:43 AM MST, Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>Paul,
>
>There are a number of places in your home that are _required_ by the 
>national electrical code to have dedicated 20 amp circuits for the 120V
>
>receptacles.
>There are at a minimum five (5) 20 amp 120V receptacle circuits in a 
>modern house:
>https://dbs.idaho.gov/programs/electrical/publications/2014_Homeowner_guide_brochure.pdf
>Sometimes, in a low-cost tract house without a garage there are less, 
>(and in older homes there could be fewer) but typically there are quite
>
>a few more. The places that you will find additional dedicated 20 amp 
>receptacles for; the microwave, the garbage disposal, occasionally the 
>dishwasher, etc. Often, the savvy custom home builder will call for 
>upgrades on 20 amp 120V receptacles for the patio, pool, workshop area,
>
>green house, deck, workout area, home entertainment area, basement,
>etc.
>
>You will notice that the code requires a 20 amp circuit for the garage,
>
>were your EV is likely to be parked.
>
>In commercial buildings, typically _all_ of the 120V receptacles are 20
>amp.
>
>I used to be an electrician, many years ago. I wired (and rewired) 
>_countless_ houses. :-)
>
>Bill D.
>
>
>On 1/19/2016 2:56 PM, dovepa via EV wrote:
>> A 120volt outlet is usually only rated for 15 amps.
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required (was: Leaf Chargers)

2016-01-20 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV 
On 20 Jan 2016 at 8:03, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote:

> You could have a 15A
> outlet with 20A wiring, but I wouldn't try to draw 16A from it.  While the
> wiring could take it, the outlet isn't rated for it.

If you take two "commercial duty" receptacles apart, one rated 15a and the 
other 20a, you won't see any difference in them.  

I haven't tried this with the 15a recepts from the 50 cent baskets at the 
big box stores, however.  My suspicion is that with new ones you can draw 16 
amps all day.  With 20 or 30 year old cheapo receptacles, I wouldn't 
recommend it.

Broadly speaking, if the left slot (with ground pin down) is T-shaped, it's 
a 20a rated 120v recept, and you can use up to 16a for charging.  Otherwise, 
limit your charging to 12a.

I can't think of any way to determine the receptacle's capacity 
electronically, without tripping the breaker or blowing the fuse.  I'm not 
an engineer, though.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required (was: Leaf Chargers)

2016-01-20 Thread Bill Dube via EV 

Paul,

There are a number of places in your home that are _required_ by the 
national electrical code to have dedicated 20 amp circuits for the 120V 
receptacles.
There are at a minimum five (5) 20 amp 120V receptacle circuits in a 
modern house:

https://dbs.idaho.gov/programs/electrical/publications/2014_Homeowner_guide_brochure.pdf
Sometimes, in a low-cost tract house without a garage there are less, 
(and in older homes there could be fewer) but typically there are quite 
a few more. The places that you will find additional dedicated 20 amp 
receptacles for; the microwave, the garbage disposal, occasionally the 
dishwasher, etc. Often, the savvy custom home builder will call for 
upgrades on 20 amp 120V receptacles for the patio, pool, workshop area, 
green house, deck, workout area, home entertainment area, basement, etc.


You will notice that the code requires a 20 amp circuit for the garage, 
were your EV is likely to be parked.


In commercial buildings, typically _all_ of the 120V receptacles are 20 amp.

I used to be an electrician, many years ago. I wired (and rewired) 
_countless_ houses. :-)


Bill D.


On 1/19/2016 2:56 PM, dovepa via EV wrote:

A 120volt outlet is usually only rated for 15 amps.





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Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required (was: Leaf Chargers)

2016-01-20 Thread Seth Rothenberg via EV 
I have been thinking (dangerous I know)
Is there a way for an instrument (live ohmmeter / ammeter)
or an electronic circuit to recognize the gauge (and surmise
the amperage protection likely in place) ?

eg, measuring ohms from neutral to ground,
(for 120 circuits) or doing a millisecond high-load
test to see voltage drop?

(I'm not an Electrician or an EE, but I have faith
in their ingenuity :-)


Where would i need this?
For example, I got permission to charge from an inside outlet
at a small building under construction.   no idea at this time
if it is 20a.(In this case, I could bring my circuit ID tool
and look in the panel but don't need to at level 1 :-)
(I got my EVSE cable yesterday ! :-)



On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 3:28 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> Paul,
>
> There are a number of places in your home that are _required_ by the
> national electrical code to have dedicated 20 amp circuits for the 120V
> receptacles.
> There are at a minimum five (5) 20 amp 120V receptacle circuits in a modern
> house:
> https://dbs.idaho.gov/programs/electrical/publications/2014_Homeowner_guide_brochure.pdf
> Sometimes, in a low-cost tract house without a garage there are less, (and
> in older homes there could be fewer) but typically there are quite a few
> more. The places that you will find additional dedicated 20 amp receptacles
> for; the microwave, the garbage disposal, occasionally the dishwasher, etc.
> Often, the savvy custom home builder will call for upgrades on 20 amp 120V
> receptacles for the patio, pool, workshop area, green house, deck, workout
> area, home entertainment area, basement, etc.
>
> You will notice that the code requires a 20 amp circuit for the garage, were
> your EV is likely to be parked.
>
> In commercial buildings, typically _all_ of the 120V receptacles are 20 amp.
>
> I used to be an electrician, many years ago. I wired (and rewired)
> _countless_ houses. :-)
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 1/19/2016 2:56 PM, dovepa via EV wrote:
>>
>> A 120volt outlet is usually only rated for 15 amps.
>>
>>
>>
>
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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