Re: Flaw in denial of group selection principle in evolution discovered?

2004-02-03 Thread John M
Eric wrote things like:

 BECAUSE THE EVOLVABLE GOAL ...
 THE GOAL IS TO ...

Well, THERE IS NO GOAL (excuse the caps, you started it).
Evolutional events are not in order to rather as a consequence of.
Further on Eric wrote:

The organism doesn't have to be  smart enough to believe in
this wager {of risk that is}...

While I am all for Eric's stance in group-evolution, I refuse to assign
speculational deeds for evolving species (groups), or in instigating changes
in order to survive. A bacterium does not amputate the sensitive group of
its molecule to resist the antibiotic or 'grow' resistant ones - in order to
the same. It is all selection of variants, wich come in all colors/tastes in
every generation - and the environment changes constantly as well. The ones
that have the better functioning variations for the (continually changed)
conditions will prliferate stronger and we (later on) observe prudent
changes in the better surviving kinds.

The group-evolution?
I don't care how the reductionistic boundaries are cut for a unit of
our observation: it may be cutting off one member of a group or it may
include the entire 'group', the variational (mutation?) characteristics are
there, producing 'items' (callable 'singles' or 'groups', who
cares) -proliferating stronger or falling back in survival.

God did not write in his book the evolutionary path which the species
HAVE to run in order to fulfill HIS plans designed for the world.
It is all coincidential of the changes in the total, reflecting to the
functions of - what we assign as - individuals (or groups). It is all in an
open deterministic two-way interaction defined by the circumstances
which may be unpredictable (for us), not for the omniscient.

Then, when we see snapshot observations from time to time (in science) and
recognise changes therein, all for the better survival,
we have the reductionistic right to say:
IT ADAPTED.
(in a way: it did).

Words, words.

Regards

John Mikes







Flaw in denial of group selection principle in evolution discovered?

2004-02-01 Thread Eric Hawthorne
Blast from the recent past.
This is pertinent to the previous discussions on  evolution
as a special case of emergent-system  emergence.
It was argued that group selection effects have been discredited in
evolutionary biology. I counterargued that  denying  the possibility of
a selection effect at each more-and-more complex system-level in
a multi-layer complex-ordered emergent system (such as ecosystems,
biological species etc) denies the likelihood of spontaneous emergence of
those complex systems at all.
I think I've found the source of the confusion regarding group selection
effects. It goes like this:
A species can evolve a group-benefit behaviour so long as the development
of the behaviour does not, on average, reduce the reproductive success 
of individuals
that engage in the group-benefit behaviour, and so long as the behaviour 
does
confer, on average, a benefit to the reproductive chances of each 
individual in
the well-behaving group.

The key is in how we interpret average. The question is whether an 
individual
organism always acts in each short-term encounter in a manner which 
maximizes their
chance of survival-to-breeding-age IN THAT ENCOUNTER, or whether it is 
possible
for the individual to wager that taking a slight risk now  (and 
believing or observing that
others will also do so) will lead to a better chance that the individual 
will survive ALL
ENCOUNTERS from now up until it breeds. The organism doesn't have to be 
smart enough
to believe in this wager. It is sufficient that the wager be on average 
beneficial to the
individual.In that case, through repeated trials by multiple 
individuals, the behaviour
which is group-adaptive and individually lifetime-average adaptive can 
evolve.

BECAUSE THE EVOLVABLE GOAL IS NOT SIMPLY TO MAXIMIZE THE
CHANCE OF SURVIVAL OF AN ORGANISM OF THE NEXT SHORT-TERM ENCOUNTER.
THE GOAL IS TO MAXIMIZE THE PROBABILITY OF SURVIVAL OF THE SUM TOTAL
OF ALL OF THE ORGANISM'S ENCOUNTERS UP TO WHEN THE ORGANISM REPRODUCES.
So it is just a time-scale misunderstanding. Group-adaptive behaviours 
increase the member's
probability of surviving to reproductive age, even if they slightly 
increase the chance of the
indvidual losing some particular encounter.

True extreme altruistic behavior which conveys CERTAINTY of death in a 
single encounter
may not fit into this model, but it can be argued as to whether the 
altruistic individual believes
they are going to die for certain in many incidents or not, or whether 
they hold out faint hope
in which case the argument above could still hold. In any case, true 
certain death altruistic behaviour
is an extreme anomoly case of group-adaptive behviour. Most 
group-adaptive behaviours are
not of that kind, so extreme, definitely fatal altruism is not a good 
model for them.

Eric