----- Original Message ----- From: "jamikes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Marchal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 5:43 PM Subject: Re: Is consciousness real?
> Dear Bruno, > No, I am not provocating you or anyone else and > Yes. I know pain. Why do you think if you say 'pain' it has to be spelled > "consciousness"? or "suffering" not good enough for you on its own right? > I am conscious (of lots of things), but you sure are wasting your words. I > wouldn't say joy etc. does not exist: that 'ominous noumenon' doesn't. > Those 2000+ learned savants in now 3 conferences on consciousness > from all over the world, - all of them - had something else to put into the > "content and description, science and discussion" of it. Why do you think > that especially your version will hold? They all make a living on it. And: > Poor old Descartes (I esteem his genius to the highest level) would have > made quite different conclusions had he had a freshman's cours of the > 2000/2001 schoolyear in physiology and biology. (Pineal gland?) > Just that you mentioned him. > Have fun > John M > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marchal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 9:45 AM > Subject: Re: Is consciousness real? > > > > Johnn Mikes wrote: > > > > >Consciousness is a historical noumenon of no content, an imaginary > 'thing' > > >that does not exist. > > > > Consciousness is what makes pain painfull. > > It makes also conscience possible, and it makes the human right sensefull. > > > > If you have had one moment of joy or pain, I take it that you belief > > in consciousness, and that you are playing with words when you say it > > does not exists. (Although I agree it exists only in some > > second order sense, and I agree it is terribly difficult, if not > > impossible, to define). > > > > Like Descartes I believe that consciousness is a sort of fixed > > point of doubt (like consistency for sound machines is a fixed > > point of the non-provability predicate). > > > > But perhaps, John, you are not conscious, in which case I am loosing > > my time telling you that. > > > > Honestly I guess you are conscious, and I guess you want just > > provocate us. > > > > Consciousness is as real as suffering. > > You don't believe in suffering ? > > > > Bruno > > > > > > > > >