Re: [Evolution] Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2016-01-25 at 00:20 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > 
> > You do not need to sign up to search the list archives either. 
> >  Messages from the Evolution list(s) are fully indexes and show up
> > in
> > search engine results.
> > 
> 
> Unfortunately the results from the list archive don't show up in
> Google searches - for instance, if you search for "evolution gmail
> setup" (which would be a reasonable search term) the first page of
> results consist of Ubuntu / other distro specific forums and all
> refer to setting up IMAP with Gmail.  In fact I've just gone all the
> way to the outer reaches of the search engine (i.e. page 10) and
> still no mention at all of the mailing list archive.

Using "site:/mail.gnome.org evolution gmail imap" gives a lot of
responses, but I guess it's not totally obvious.

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution

[Pete Biggs]

> 
> You do not need to sign up to search the list archives either. 
>  Messages from the Evolution list(s) are fully indexes and show up in
> search engine results.
> 

Unfortunately the results from the list archive don't show up in Google
searches - for instance, if you search for "evolution gmail setup"
(which would be a reasonable search term) the first page of results
consist of Ubuntu / other distro specific forums and all refer to
setting up IMAP with Gmail.  In fact I've just gone all the way to the
outer reaches of the search engine (i.e. page 10) and still no mention
at all of the mailing list archive.

P.
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Re: [Evolution] Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Mon, 2016-01-25 at 00:44 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Mon, 2016-01-25 at 00:20 +, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > > 
> > > You do not need to sign up to search the list archives either. 
> > >  Messages from the Evolution list(s) are fully indexes and show up
> > > in search engine results.
> > > 
> > 
> > Unfortunately the results from the list archive don't show up in
> > Google searches - for instance, if you search for "evolution gmail
> > setup" (which would be a reasonable search term) the first page of
> > results consist of Ubuntu / other distro specific forums and all
> > refer to setting up IMAP with Gmail.  In fact I've just gone all the
> > way to the outer reaches of the search engine (i.e. page 10) and
> > still no mention at all of the mailing list archive.
> 
> Using "site:/mail.gnome.org evolution gmail imap" gives a lot of
> responses, but I guess it's not totally obvious.

The archive is also available by gmane. The gmane archive has it's own
search engine.

http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.evolution.general
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Re: [Evolution] Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution

[Pete Biggs]

>  My only request now would be
> that the setup wizard tell the user about the online accounts in the
> Gnome settings, as I didn't know about it and I think if I had done that
> first then everything would have been totally smooth.

The recent versions of Evolution do not have a specific Gnome account
type - that's why you have been asked by a few people for the version
of Evolution you are using.

It might be that if someone attempts to setup an @gmail address there
is a popup which points people to GoA, but they should, of course, be
allowed to continue with an IMAP setup if that's what they want. The
only problem is that Google is not the only account type handled by GoA
and do we really want there to be a proliferation of mail systems
detected by Evolution?

P.
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[Evolution] Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution

[Nick Pontillo]

Hey all, there are two things I'd like to propose/bring to attention.

First of all, Google is blocking Evolution from working with Gmail due
to this: https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6010255?hl=en

This page might also be relevant:
https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6009563

Apparently this is a problem for a lot of desktop mail applications. I
don't really know much about this, but it is explained here:
http://mbeiley.blogspot.com/2014/09/google-less-secure-apps-explained.html

Now I've read some other things on the Internet that say this does
nothing for security, because you've already given the "less secure app"
your login credentials anyway when Google blocks it. But regardless of
whether what Google is doing is good or not, or anticompetitive or not,
we need to deal with this.

There are three options here. One is Evolution starts using 0auth2, and
is therefore not blocked when it tries to login to Gmail. A second
option is to tell the user how to connect their Evolution to their Gmail
right in the setup wizard, without them having to look for the
workaround online like I did (while you're at it, you might as well tell
them to enable POP/IMAP too, since that also needs to be done). The
third option is to do nothing, and essentially alienate every Gmail user
who doesn't have the patience to figure out where to go in the Google
settings to "allow less secure apps".

So my question is, would it be feasible for Evolution to start using
0auth2, so that it is no longer blocked by Google? I believe Thunderbird
already does this by the way, since I had no problem integrating my
Gmail account with it.

If it is not feasible, then I would suggest option 2, which is to give
the user more instruction in the very beginning for how to get around
this. Specifically, I think the setup wizard when you run Evolution for
the first time should say something along the lines of "if you would
like to connect a Gmail account, go to
https://www.google.com/settings/security/lesssecureapps and enable less
secure apps. Then log in to gmail with a web browser, go to settings, go
to 'forwarding and pop/imap', and enable pop or imap."

And this brings me to the other thing I want to talk about, which is
that in order to give feedback about this I had to sign up for this
mailing list and send out an email. I think there is a good opportunity
for Evolution to improve its user-friendliness by having a forum on the
web of some sort.

*Forums are better than IRC and mailing lists because people don't have
to sign up to look at them*, therefore if someone is having a problem
they can look on the forum for solutions. Right now there is no central
place on the web where people can go to look for help and tips with
Evolution - unless they set up IRC, sign up to the mailing list, or to
the Gnome wiki. There are threads *about* Evolution in other tech
forums, but there is no Evolution forum.

This does not even require any money, hardware, or investment from
Gnome. All it would take is for someone to make a subreddit called
"/r/evolutionmail" and then link to that subreddit in the Evolution
manual, gnome wiki page, and setup wizard. Maybe advertise it a bit on
Linux blogs/forums on the same day it's created. And it could even link
to all the other Evolution stuff like this:
https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Evolution/ and this:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list

So in short:

1: In light of Google's policy, do something to make it easier to
connect Gmail accounts with Evolution.
2: Have a public forum where people can ask for help and provide
assistance anonymously, but in public so it's easy for anyone to see,
and link this reciprocally to all the other Evolution web presence. I
will create a subreddit myself if there is general agreement that it is
a good idea. I am open to having my mind changed though.

I will end this by saying thank you and happy new year to all open
source developers and contributors. Nice email client! :)

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Re: [Evolution] Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2016-01-24 at 12:34 -0500, Nick Pontillo wrote:
> Hey all, there are two things I'd like to propose/bring to attention.
> 
> First of all, Google is blocking Evolution from working with Gmail
> due
> to this: https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6010255?hl=en

If that were the case I would have noticed, because both my main
accounts are Google-based and I access them with Evolution.

You just need to set up Gmail access using Gnome Online Accounts. This
has been the case for several months now and has been repeatedly
mentioned on this list. Note that this is not specific to Evolution, it
applies across the Gnome environment.

Or maybe it doesn't work with your version of Evolution, but since you
don't say what that is, it's impossible to say.

> Now I've read some other things on the Internet that say this does
> nothing for security, because you've already given the "less secure
> app" your login credentials anyway when Google blocks it. But
> regardless of whether what Google is doing is good or not, or
> anticompetitive or not, we need to deal with this.

Some references to where this is being said would be welcome. I'm
sceptical of the reasoning.

[...]

> *Forums are better than IRC and mailing lists because people don't
> have to sign up to look at them*, therefore if someone is having a
> problem
> they can look on the forum for solutions. Right now there is no
> central
> place on the web where people can go to look for help and tips with
> Evolution - unless they set up IRC, sign up to the mailing list, or
> to
> the Gnome wiki.

There's also the online help system, though I agree it's not all it
might be.

Mailing lists have the advantage of a) being easily managed within
Evolution, and b) keeping an ordered history of interactions in the
form of threads. The archives for Evo stretch back many years. I don't
know of any online forum system with these characteristics, and my
(limited) experience of them is that they are considerably less useful
for getting answers to all but the most trivial problems. But YMMV of
course.

> There are threads *about* Evolution in other tech
> forums, but there is no Evolution forum.

You are certainly welcome to do this.

> This does not even require any money, hardware, or investment from
> Gnome.

No, just from somebody motivated to do it.

Cheers

poc
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Re: [Evolution] Forums [was: Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution]

[Andre Klapper]

On Sun, 2016-01-24 at 12:34 -0500, Nick Pontillo wrote:
> 2: Have a public forum where people can ask for help and provide
> assistance anonymously

We have mailing lists, a wiki, an IRC channel. If there are extremely
good reasons to set up yet another detached venue (I have
https://xkcd.com/927/ in mind): Please feel free to do it! :)

A forum does not make you "anonymous" as you submit an IP address.
If you meant "without login" instead, this has been already answered by
other folks on this list.

andre
-- 
Andre Klapper  |  ak...@gmx.net
http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: [Evolution] Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Sun, 2016-01-24 at 12:34 -0500, Nick Pontillo wrote:
> Hey all, there are two things I'd like to propose/bring to attention.
> First of all, Google is blocking Evolution from working with Gmail
> due to this: https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6010255?hl=en

Nope,  setup the account in GOA.  Strong authentication works.  But you
need to be on a version of GOA/Evolution where that works - but I
believe it has been awhile.

> So my question is, would it be feasible for Evolution to start using
> 0auth2, so that it is no longer blocked by Google? I believe 
> Thunderbird already does this by the way, 

I believe Evolution - or more appropriately GNOME - already does this.

> And this brings me to the other thing I want to talk about, which is
> that in order to give feedback about this I had to sign up for this
> mailing list and send out an email. 

Yes.

> I think there is a good opportunity
> for Evolution to improve its user-friendliness by having a forum on 
> the web of some sort.

No!  All forums do is provide somewhere for questions to go to die. 
 Mail lists have been around pretty much forever and are conveniently
push-oriented.   AND is is a FEATURE NOT A BUG that is adds a wee tiny
bit of effort on behalf of the one seeking ***FREE*** assistance.  This
is Open Source.

> *Forums are better than IRC and mailing lists because people don't 
> have to sign up to look at them*,

You do not need to sign up to search the list archives either. 
 Messages from the Evolution list(s) are fully indexes and show up in
search engine results.

> This does not even require any money, hardware, or investment from
> Gnome. All it would take is for someone to make a subreddit called
> "/r/evolutionmail" and then link to that subreddit in the Evolution
> manual, gnome wiki page, and setup wizard. Maybe advertise it a bit 
> on Linux blogs/forums on the same day it's created.

And it would be completely ignored by all those experienced with the
application and in a position to offer the desired information.  Check
out 99.44% of all reddit feeds and you will find no-responses or
completely wrong horrible advice - and then people will blame
Evolution.  Talk about alienation - nothing is worse that the kind of
'tech support' I see people receive via the openSUSE Facebook account.


-- 
Adam Tauno Williams  GPG D95ED383
OpenGroupware Developer 


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Re: [Evolution] Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution

[Pete Biggs]

On Sun, 2016-01-24 at 12:34 -0500, Nick Pontillo wrote:
> Hey all, there are two things I'd like to propose/bring to attention.

It would be good to know what version of Evolution you are using so we
can put your comments in to historical context.

> 
> First of all, Google is blocking Evolution from working with Gmail due
> to this: https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6010255?hl=en

I think "blocking" is putting a bit strongly - Google changed it's
authentication mechanism, that is all.

> 
> There are three options here. One is Evolution starts using 0auth2, and
> is therefore not blocked when it tries to login to Gmail.

It does to some extent.  Provisioning of non-imap gmail accounts is
done via Gnome online accounts - that is the mechanism for dealing with
Oauth2 in Gnome and since Evolution is a well behaved Gnome
application, it "all just works".


>  A second
> option is to tell the user how to connect their Evolution to their Gmail
> right in the setup wizard, without them having to look for the
> workaround online like I did 

If you set things up as IMAP, then I suspect you got the wrong
information.  

> (while you're at it, you might as well tell
> them to enable POP/IMAP too, since that also needs to be done). The
> third option is to do nothing, and essentially alienate every Gmail user
> who doesn't have the patience to figure out where to go in the Google
> settings to "allow less secure apps".

The help within Evolution tells you how to enable Gmail IMAP.

> 
> If it is not feasible, then I would suggest option 2, which is to give
> the user more instruction in the very beginning for how to get around
> this. Specifically, I think the setup wizard when you run Evolution for
> the first time should say something along the lines of "if you would
> like to connect a Gmail account, go to
> https://www.google.com/settings/security/lesssecureapps and enable less
> secure apps. Then log in to gmail with a web browser, go to settings, go
> to 'forwarding and pop/imap', and enable pop or imap."

To be honest, that's just not the right thing to do - it presupposes
that the user *only* wants to use mail.  Gmail is a whole lot more than
that - contacts, calendar, notes and so on.  Pointing a user to an IMAP
solution just causes problems further down the line.

> 
> And this brings me to the other thing I want to talk about, which is
> that in order to give feedback about this I had to sign up for this
> mailing list and send out an email. I think there is a good opportunity
> for Evolution to improve its user-friendliness by having a forum on the
> web of some sort.

Just no. Forums/fora are a pain in the backside.  I get Evolution list
emails into my inbox (well sort of) and I can see them immediately and
try to help people.  I would have to visit a forum on the web and
actively go looking for things to help people with.  

> 
> *Forums are better than IRC and mailing lists because people don't have
> to sign up to look at them*, 

Err, what about 

  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/

no sign up for that.

> therefore if someone is having a problem
> they can look on the forum for solutions. Right now there is no central
> place on the web where people can go to look for help and tips with
> Evolution 

  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/


> - unless they set up IRC, sign up to the mailing list, or to
> the Gnome wiki. There are threads *about* Evolution in other tech
> forums, but there is no Evolution forum.
> 
> This does not even require any money, hardware, or investment from
> Gnome. All it would take is for someone to make a subreddit called
> "/r/evolutionmail" 

Oh great, I can really imagine that being immune from the creationist
nut jobs on reddit.

And personally I find reddit a confusing mess.

> and then link to that subreddit in the Evolution
> manual, gnome wiki page, and setup wizard. Maybe advertise it a bit on
> Linux blogs/forums on the same day it's created. And it could even link
> to all the other Evolution stuff like this:
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Evolution/ and this:
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list

Oh, and perhaps on 

  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/

as well??

> 
> So in short:
> 
> 1: In light of Google's policy, do something to make it easier to
> connect Gmail accounts with Evolution.

Done.

> 2: Have a public forum where people can ask for help and provide
> assistance anonymously,

Why anonymously??  If you mean that you don't have to sign up, then all
forums I have ever come across you have to sign up to to ask/answer
topics.  Certainly you have to for reddit.  

And in any case, I don't think you have to sign up to use this list -
if you aren't a subscriber, then your post is moderated, but it will
get through if it is suitable.  And you can look at the answers on,
yes, you guessed it:

   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/

P.

Re: [Evolution] Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 2016-01-24 at 12:34 -0500, Nick Pontillo wrote:
> *Forums are better than IRC and mailing lists because people don't
> have to sign up to look at them*, therefore if someone is having a
> problem they can look on the forum for solutions. Right now there is
> no central place on the web where people can go to look for help and
> tips with Evolution - unless they set up IRC, sign up to the mailing
> list, or to the Gnome wiki.

You might prefer forums, that's ok, but your claim that users need to be
subscribe to read the Wiki or the Evolution mailing list is wrong. I
dislike forums and IRC, but I like Wikis and mailing lists. Anyway,
to read a Wiki or the Evolution mailing list archive(s), there's no need
to be subscribed. IOW regarding this, there's no difference to a forum.

You do not need to be subscribe to read the Evolution mailing list
archive(s):

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/
http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.evolution.general

You do not need to be subscribed to read the Wiki:

https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Evolution
https://help.gnome.org/users/evolution/stable/

Evolution provides a menu called "Help", resp. just push the "F1" key.

There's also no need to be subscribed to the bug tracker to read
reported bugs.

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=__all__=evolut
ion_redirect=1=Importance=evolution_format=specif
ic

Regards,
Ralf

PS: By accident I send this mail two times from the wrong account. I'm
even not sure if there's the need to be subscribed to the list, to write
to it. My apologies, assumed the other two mails should come through
too. Some mailman lists allow to cancel such posts instead of waiting
for moderation.
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Re: [Evolution] Forums [was: Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution]

[Sylvia Sánchez]

Nick, did you ever heard of trolls?
Absolute anonymity is a double edged sword.



Cheers,
Sylvia



:

> On Sun, 2016-01-24 at 12:34 -0500, Nick Pontillo wrote:
> > 2: Have a public forum where people can ask for help and provide
> > assistance anonymously
>
>
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Re: [Evolution] Google's blockage of Evolution with Gmail, and Web Presence of Evolution

[nick]

On Sun, 2016-01-24 at 15:00 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-01-24 at 12:34 -0500, Nick Pontillo wrote:
> > Hey all, there are two things I'd like to propose/bring to attention.
> > First of all, Google is blocking Evolution from working with Gmail
> > due to this: https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6010255?hl=en
> 
> Nope,  setup the account in GOA.  Strong authentication works.  But you
> need to be on a version of GOA/Evolution where that works - but I
> believe it has been awhile.
> 
> > So my question is, would it be feasible for Evolution to start using
> > 0auth2, so that it is no longer blocked by Google? I believe 
> > Thunderbird already does this by the way, 
> 
> I believe Evolution - or more appropriately GNOME - already does this.
> 
> > And this brings me to the other thing I want to talk about, which is
> > that in order to give feedback about this I had to sign up for this
> > mailing list and send out an email. 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > I think there is a good opportunity
> > for Evolution to improve its user-friendliness by having a forum on 
> > the web of some sort.
> 
> No!  All forums do is provide somewhere for questions to go to die. 
>  Mail lists have been around pretty much forever and are conveniently
> push-oriented.   AND is is a FEATURE NOT A BUG that is adds a wee tiny
> bit of effort on behalf of the one seeking ***FREE*** assistance.  This
> is Open Source.
> 
> > *Forums are better than IRC and mailing lists because people don't 
> > have to sign up to look at them*,
> 
> You do not need to sign up to search the list archives either. 
>  Messages from the Evolution list(s) are fully indexes and show up in
> search engine results.
> 
> > This does not even require any money, hardware, or investment from
> > Gnome. All it would take is for someone to make a subreddit called
> > "/r/evolutionmail" and then link to that subreddit in the Evolution
> > manual, gnome wiki page, and setup wizard. Maybe advertise it a bit 
> > on Linux blogs/forums on the same day it's created.
> 
> And it would be completely ignored by all those experienced with the
> application and in a position to offer the desired information.  Check
> out 99.44% of all reddit feeds and you will find no-responses or
> completely wrong horrible advice - and then people will blame
> Evolution.  Talk about alienation - nothing is worse that the kind of
> 'tech support' I see people receive via the openSUSE Facebook account.
> 
> 
Sorry folks, I had no idea about the online accounts settings in Gnome
and I think that explains everything with 0auth2. Also you've convinced
me of the superiority of mailing lists. My only request now would be
that the setup wizard tell the user about the online accounts in the
Gnome settings, as I didn't know about it and I think if I had done that
first then everything would have been totally smooth.

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