Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Thu, 2014-09-11 at 02:16 +0200, Ángel González wrote: Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Any distributed system is subject to partial failure, i.e. one part stops working or loses communication with another part. If data is in the process of being moved between the two parts when that happens, the designer has to decide between allowing data to be lost and opening the possibility of duplicating it. Systems which aim for reliability invariably choose the latter option, because the mess can always be cleaned up later. Sometimes the cleanup is automatic (e.g. transactional databases, many remote filesystems) and sometimes it's manual (i.e. visible to the end user). AFAIK all email systems fall into the latter category because a) it's not that big a deal, and b) doing it automatically would be complicated and could introduce other errors. poc It's not hard to think on an IMAP server where the client is moving the emails using MOVE, the server is storing the files in maildir and thus it simply performs a rename() and the underlying filesystem is journaled (nothing fancy, just ext3 would do) and makes rename(2) atomic even in case of a server crash. This is getting a bit off topic, but ... I have a feeling that the MOVE IMAP command is relatively recent and isn't supported by all servers and clients - it also breaks the COPY and MARK AS DELETED that many people have been used to (to me that gives me the warm fluffy feeling of making sure that mail is NEVER lost by the server - paranoia helps when dealing with someone else's email!) Also, the design of Maildir is such that all critical operations are atomic - it's why the directories 'cur', 'new' and 'tmp' exist. Sometimes it's not hard to make things that work properly. But then nobody would notice :) Nobody knows what a system manager does until they aren't there to do it. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Thu, 2014-09-11 at 02:16 +0200, Ángel González wrote: Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Any distributed system is subject to partial failure, i.e. one part stops working or loses communication with another part. If data is in the process of being moved between the two parts when that happens, the designer has to decide between allowing data to be lost and opening the possibility of duplicating it. Systems which aim for reliability invariably choose the latter option, because the mess can always be cleaned up later. Sometimes the cleanup is automatic (e.g. transactional databases, many remote filesystems) and sometimes it's manual (i.e. visible to the end user). AFAIK all email systems fall into the latter category because a) it's not that big a deal, and b) doing it automatically would be complicated and could introduce other errors. poc It's not hard to think on an IMAP server where the client is moving the emails using MOVE, the server is storing the files in maildir and thus it simply performs a rename() and the underlying filesystem is journaled (nothing fancy, just ext3 would do) and makes rename(2) atomic even in case of a server crash. Sometimes it's not hard to make things that work properly. But then nobody would notice :) It's relatively easy to make a single system withstand crashes up to a given level of severity (we're excluding hardware failure, terrorist attacks and meteor strikes here). Now make it work when the client crashes, when the client and server are disconnected for an indeterminate time, when the user is moving mail between accounts held on different servers using different backend implementations with no central administration and which of course may become disconnected from each other, ... In other words, on the Internet as it actually is. It's useful to remind ourselves that no service on the Internet guarantees absolute reliability. We tend to forget this because on the whole it is incredibly reliable for something so complex. A large part of that is due to it not being over-designed, and to the notion that we can live with the occasional error because we'll notice it and do something to correct it. I recommend Saltzer's seminal 1984 paper End To End Arguments in System Design (http://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/endtoend/endtoend.pdf) poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Any distributed system is subject to partial failure, i.e. one part stops working or loses communication with another part. If data is in the process of being moved between the two parts when that happens, the designer has to decide between allowing data to be lost and opening the possibility of duplicating it. Systems which aim for reliability invariably choose the latter option, because the mess can always be cleaned up later. Sometimes the cleanup is automatic (e.g. transactional databases, many remote filesystems) and sometimes it's manual (i.e. visible to the end user). AFAIK all email systems fall into the latter category because a) it's not that big a deal, and b) doing it automatically would be complicated and could introduce other errors. poc It's not hard to think on an IMAP server where the client is moving the emails using MOVE, the server is storing the files in maildir and thus it simply performs a rename() and the underlying filesystem is journaled (nothing fancy, just ext3 would do) and makes rename(2) atomic even in case of a server crash. Sometimes it's not hard to make things that work properly. But then nobody would notice :) ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 22:21 +0200, Ángel González wrote: On Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Tue, 2014-09-02 at 22:19 +0200, Ángel González wrote: Moreover, that emails can be searched without a warrant in the US (where most email companies are) unless you haven't read it and it is newer than 180 days. It's worse than that. In a current case Microsoft is being sued by the US to present email messages that are stored in its servers in Ireland: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/technology/eu-rebukes-us-over-microsoft-email-in-first-test-of-privacy-1.1850750 poc Thanks for the link, I didn't know about that case. I was however thinking in the possibility of a case like that when writing 'email companies' instead of 'emails'. It's hard to just give the point without adding a big paragraph explaining for the many ramifications. :) An update from yesterday: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/09/judge-mulls-contempt-charges-in-microsofts-e-mail-privacy-fight-with-us/ However this is getting OT so I'll leave it there. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 18:26 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 10:22 -0600, Zan Lynx wrote: On 9/3/2014 5:45 AM, Pete Biggs wrote: I've never heard of a problem of IMAP duplicating emails and, knowing how the protocol works, I can't see how it can! The protocol won't, but servers and clients will. I've had Thunderbird (old version, now fixed) time out while copying large numbers of email messages from one folder to another. This resulted in copies of the message in both folders, because it didn't delete the messages until the copy was complete. I've also had the server lose delete flags on abnormal client shutdown, which means that messages copied to another folder get resurrected, resulting in two. And when the filter runs again on next client startup, more copies are created. So yeah, IMAP can make copies happen. No, IMAP can't - there's nothing in the protocol specification that would lead to a duplication of emails. The implementation of the protocol is a different matter - in fact the problems you mention are totally protocol independent. Bad things can happen when using IMAP but they aren't necessarily IMAP's fault. Any distributed system is subject to partial failure, i.e. one part stops working or loses communication with another part. If data is in the process of being moved between the two parts when that happens, the designer has to decide between allowing data to be lost and opening the possibility of duplicating it. Systems which aim for reliability invariably choose the latter option, because the mess can always be cleaned up later. Sometimes the cleanup is automatic (e.g. transactional databases, many remote filesystems) and sometimes it's manual (i.e. visible to the end user). AFAIK all email systems fall into the latter category because a) it's not that big a deal, and b) doing it automatically would be complicated and could introduce other errors. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
They use POP because they do not want their mail residing on someone else's computer. Hmm, all my mail resides on my own computers and I use IMAP. (Well, I have a gmail account somewhere, but that's the only one!) I know it passes through other systems, but I have some messages that reside for long periods of time in various email folders for various reasons. And, I feel a lot more secure doing so. I have mail going back to the early 90s. I feel much happier that my mail resides on a server somewhere rather than on a desktop computer - it just feels right that it is in a physically secure place, in a controlled environment and backed up daily. If I lose my phone, or my iPad, or my laptop, I don't need to worry about my email accounts. Besides, 90 percent of the problems I see here have to do with IMAP. I've been using POP for years and years and have very, very little trouble. So, count me among the POP fans. I suspect that 90% of the problems reported are with IMAP because 90% of people use IMAP. Basically POP is a method of getting your mail from a server and on to your own computer. That's it. That's all it does. All the POP implementation on Evo does is to stick the mail into your On this computer folders and then plays with it from there. If, theoretically, Evo abandoned it's POP components and you had an external method of doing the same thing, would that be a workable thing for you? [Please note, I am not a dev, there is no such proposal, I am not proposing it.] P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 10:26 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: snip I suspect that 90% of the problems reported are with IMAP because 90% of people use IMAP. I'm not so sure. Most of the people I know use web mail. They do everything through their browser. Is that IMAP? I want no part of that! Basically POP is a method of getting your mail from a server and on to your own computer. That's it. That's all it does. No, not quite. You're forgetting the deletion part of the process! POP does exactly what I want it to do! If it is text, fine. If it is HTML, fine! If it has an embedded image, fine. If it has an attachment, fine! Send it to me and I, or rather my mail client, will decide what to do with it. All the POP implementation on Evo does is to stick the mail into your On this computer folders and then plays with it from there. Exactly! And, it does it very well, thank you. If, theoretically, Evo abandoned it's POP components and you had an external method of doing the same thing, would that be a workable thing for you? [Please note, I am not a dev, there is no such proposal, I am not proposing it.] Why, why, why is everyone so intent on making me, and others like me, change a system we are perfectly happy with, to one you think is Better? NO! It would not be to my liking! I would not like an external system that I would have to set up and make additional efforts to download things that are already downloaded via POP, or send a bunch of commands to some computer somewhere, which will record everything I do, which messages go where, which folders I create, which ones I delete, what type of messages I keep, and then sell all this info to some company, or give it to some govt agency. Evolution is, and has been for a long time, my mail client of choice. It downloads messages from 17 POP accounts, puts them in folders as determined by the filters I created, and lets me read and reply to them. I really like Evolution even though it contains a bunch of stuff I don't use... like the calendar... and the memos... and Tasks and Microsoft Outlook connectivity and... and... and... Oh! IMAP! :) Leave my POP alone! Now. I'm done. Bart ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
Why do people still use POP [...]? Because of the issues I experienced when using IMAP, such as receiving the messages two times. I never run into such evil issues when using POP. Once there are multiple copies of hundreds of emails in your private email archive, you can't get rid of those. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Tue, 2014-09-02 at 09:37 -0400, Robert Seward wrote: I prefer POP with Evolution because it is more stable for me than IMAP. About half my accounts are POP and half are IMAP. +1 +1 None of my accounts is IMAP anymore :p. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 04:34 -0600, Bart wrote: On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 10:26 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: snip I suspect that 90% of the problems reported are with IMAP because 90% of people use IMAP. I'm not so sure. Most of the people I know use web mail. They do everything through their browser. Is that IMAP? I want no part of that! I think Pete was talking about the problems reported on this list. People using webmail systems are not talking about them here because it wouldn't be appropriate (for the record, I also use Gmail for a lot of casual mailing, but it's not good at managing mailing lists). [...] Why, why, why is everyone so intent on making me, and others like me, change a system we are perfectly happy with, to one you think is Better? We aren't. No-one is proposing to remove POP support from Evo. The question is how much effort the devels should put into it at the expense of other things such as fixing IMAP problems. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 13:28 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Why do people still use POP [...]? Because of the issues I experienced when using IMAP, such as receiving the messages two times. I never run into such evil issues when using POP. Once there are multiple copies of hundreds of emails in your private email archive, you can't get rid of those. And I've never experienced them with IMAP, so it would appear that your problem is either with the server side or with something in your Evo configuration. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 13:28 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Why do people still use POP [...]? Because of the issues I experienced when using IMAP, such as receiving the messages two times. I never run into such evil issues when using POP. Once there are multiple copies of hundreds of emails in your private email archive, you can't get rid of those. POP was always much more prone to duplicating emails because of the way the message IDs are used in POP. It's why all the dedup plugins/programs/protocols were created. I've never heard of a problem of IMAP duplicating emails and, knowing how the protocol works, I can't see how it can! The view you see in your mailbox is what is on the server, so something else must be duplicating the mails. You may have seen a problem when using an IMAP server, but it's not an IMAP protocol issue per se. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 12:45 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 13:28 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Why do people still use POP [...]? Because of the issues I experienced when using IMAP, such as receiving the messages two times. I never run into such evil issues when using POP. Once there are multiple copies of hundreds of emails in your private email archive, you can't get rid of those. POP was always much more prone to duplicating emails because of the way the message IDs are used in POP. It's why all the dedup plugins/programs/protocols were created. I've never heard of a problem of IMAP duplicating emails and, knowing how the protocol works, I can't see how it can! The view you see in your mailbox is what is on the server, so something else must be duplicating the mails. You may have seen a problem when using an IMAP server, but it's not an IMAP protocol issue per se. To be fair, I experienced the duplicated emails issue for POP too, when I tested KMail, but never with Evolution. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On 9/3/2014 5:45 AM, Pete Biggs wrote: I've never heard of a problem of IMAP duplicating emails and, knowing how the protocol works, I can't see how it can! The protocol won't, but servers and clients will. I've had Thunderbird (old version, now fixed) time out while copying large numbers of email messages from one folder to another. This resulted in copies of the message in both folders, because it didn't delete the messages until the copy was complete. I've also had the server lose delete flags on abnormal client shutdown, which means that messages copied to another folder get resurrected, resulting in two. And when the filter runs again on next client startup, more copies are created. So yeah, IMAP can make copies happen. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Wed, 2014-09-03 at 10:22 -0600, Zan Lynx wrote: On 9/3/2014 5:45 AM, Pete Biggs wrote: I've never heard of a problem of IMAP duplicating emails and, knowing how the protocol works, I can't see how it can! The protocol won't, but servers and clients will. I've had Thunderbird (old version, now fixed) time out while copying large numbers of email messages from one folder to another. This resulted in copies of the message in both folders, because it didn't delete the messages until the copy was complete. I've also had the server lose delete flags on abnormal client shutdown, which means that messages copied to another folder get resurrected, resulting in two. And when the filter runs again on next client startup, more copies are created. So yeah, IMAP can make copies happen. No, IMAP can't - there's nothing in the protocol specification that would lead to a duplication of emails. The implementation of the protocol is a different matter - in fact the problems you mention are totally protocol independent. Bad things can happen when using IMAP but they aren't necessarily IMAP's fault. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Tue, 2014-09-02 at 22:19 +0200, Ángel González wrote: Moreover, that emails can be searched without a warrant in the US (where most email companies are) unless you haven't read it and it is newer than 180 days. It's worse than that. In a current case Microsoft is being sued by the US to present email messages that are stored in its servers in Ireland: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/technology/eu-rebukes-us-over-microsoft-email-in-first-test-of-privacy-1.1850750 poc Thanks for the link, I didn't know about that case. I was however thinking in the possibility of a case like that when writing 'email companies' instead of 'emails'. It's hard to just give the point without adding a big paragraph explaining for the many ramifications. :) ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
Yup. Fetchmail just sleeps however long the ...rc file requires and tries again. There appears to be a limit to how long fetchmail will wait for an appropriate reply from a server. From the man page: The timeout option allows you to set a server-nonresponse timeout in seconds. If a mailserver does not send a greeting message or respond to commands for the given number of seconds, fetchmail will drop the connection to it. ... If a given connection receives too many timeouts in succession, fetchmail will consider it wedged and stop retrying. The calling user will be notified by email if this happens. This might be a good way for evolution to handle the problem. This isn't a timeout issue. Evolution's response to a timeout is different: it puts up a sodding great big error banner and retries later (and never removes the error banner, even on later success), but at least it doesn't prompt for a password. These errors from Yahoo are internal server errors, so the login is successful, but the servers can't cope with something and throw back an error. Unfortunately it looks like Evolution's error handling in such a situation is fairly broad-brushed and the generic response is to ask for a password. So the underlying problem is from Yahoo, but Evolution's response to the problem is not as helpful as it could be. But, to inject a bit of controversy into this, is the usage of the very old POP protocol sufficient that the devs should spend time looking at this sort of issue? Why do people still use POP, when IMAP is a more complete solution and things like offline-imap and fetchmail exist for those who work in an offline environment? P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Tue, 2014-09-02 at 09:39 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: But, to inject a bit of controversy into this, is the usage of the very old POP protocol sufficient that the devs should spend time looking at this sort of issue? Why do people still use POP, when IMAP is a more complete solution and things like offline-imap and fetchmail exist for those who work in an offline environment? +1 poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
snip But, to inject a bit of controversy into this, is the usage of the very old POP protocol sufficient that the devs should spend time looking at this sort of issue? Absolutely! Why do people still use POP, when IMAP is a more complete solution and things like offline-imap and fetchmail exist for those who work in an offline environment? They use POP because they do not want their mail residing on someone else's computer. I know it passes through other systems, but I have some messages that reside for long periods of time in various email folders for various reasons. And, I feel a lot more secure doing so. If I lose my phone, or my iPad, or my laptop, I don't need to worry about my email accounts. Besides, 90 percent of the problems I see here have to do with IMAP. I've been using POP for years and years and have very, very little trouble. So, count me among the POP fans. Bart ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Tue, 2014-09-02 at 05:01 -0600, Bart wrote: Why do people still use POP, when IMAP is a more complete solution and things like offline-imap and fetchmail exist for those who work in an offline environment? They use POP because they do not want their mail residing on someone else's computer. So download it to your own computer using fetchmail or offline IMAP mode (or just dragging it between folders). IMAP doesn't force you to leave it on a server. There is no feature of POP which IMAP does not also have. I know it passes through other systems, but I have some messages that reside for long periods of time in various email folders for various reasons. And, I feel a lot more secure doing so. If I lose my phone, or my iPad, or my laptop, I don't need to worry about my email accounts. If you lose a device and the device is not properly secured then your account is at risk whether it's IMAP or POP. Clearly in the IMAP case you are also trusting the server admin to take proper care of your stored mail, but you don't have to leave it there if you don't want to (see above). poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
Why do people still use POP, when IMAP is a more complete solution and things like offline-imap and fetchmail exist for those who work in an offline environment? P. I prefer POP with Evolution because it is more stable for me than IMAP. About half my accounts are POP and half are IMAP. The least stable accounts for fetching e-mail are the IMAP accounts. So... POP continues to rule my e-mail tech stack. Much of my e-mail is hosted at Google but not all. I am sure someone will say their servers suck. That may be however that is where my e-mail is! If at some point, IMAP becomes as stable, I will switch to it wholesale. Thanks, Rob -- Rob Seward Bluestone Consulting Group, LLC web: http://www.bluestone-consulting.com/ e-mail: rsew...@bluestone-consulting.com office: 734.726.0313 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
Dear colleagues, On Tue, 2014-09-02 at 05:01 -0600, Bart wrote: snip They use POP because they do not want their mail residing on someone else's computer. I know it passes through other systems, but I have some messages that reside for long periods of time in various email folders for various reasons. And, I feel a lot more secure doing so. If I lose my phone, or my iPad, or my laptop, I don't need to worry about my email accounts. +1 George Reeke ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
Bart wrote: Why do people still use POP, when IMAP is a more complete solution and things like offline-imap and fetchmail exist for those who work in an offline environment? They use POP because they do not want their mail residing on someone else's computer. I know it passes through other systems, but I have some messages that reside for long periods of time in various email folders for various reasons. And, I feel a lot more secure doing so. If I lose my phone, or my iPad, or my laptop, I don't need to worry about my email accounts. Moreover, that emails can be searched without a warrant in the US (where most email companies are) unless you haven't read it and it is newer than 180 days. [1] However, I'm not so sure about the case of losing a phone/table/laptop. If you check your email on those devices, with pop they are locally downloading a copy, while with IMAP they can just download the requesting messages on demand (thus protecting messages not read on them) or even work without a local cache. It seems like you would need to use a master system that downloads with POP and deletes from server, with the mobile devices dowloading with POP but leaving on the server *and* automatically removing its already downloaded messages (after X days, when removed from server, etc…). A better solution may be to have the mobile devices using IMAP (for emails received when you are away) and the master system use POP to delete them from both the server and IMAP view. (All of this assuming a pop DELE really performs an email deletion, instead of some other action, such as some big providers default) 1-http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/18/bill-to-require-warrants-to-search-emails-gains-steam-in-the-house/ ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Tue, 2014-09-02 at 13:27 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Tue, 2014-09-02 at 05:01 -0600, Bart wrote: Why do people still use POP, when IMAP is a more complete solution and things like offline-imap and fetchmail exist for those who work in an offline environment? They use POP because they do not want their mail residing on someone else's computer. So download it to your own computer using fetchmail or offline IMAP mode (or just dragging it between folders). IMAP doesn't force you to leave it on a server. There is no feature of POP which IMAP does not also have. Why perform an additional step? POP does that for me. I know it passes through other systems, but I have some messages that reside for long periods of time in various email folders for various reasons. And, I feel a lot more secure doing so. If I lose my phone, or my iPad, or my laptop, I don't need to worry about my email accounts. If you lose a device and the device is not properly secured then your account is at risk whether it's IMAP or POP. Clearly in the IMAP case you are also trusting the server admin to take proper care of your stored mail, but you don't have to leave it there if you don't want to (see above). Not if the accounts don't exist on the portable device. My email goes to my desktop. My phone has one IMAP account that doesn't exist on my desktop. I have tried using IMAP and frankly see no advantage at all. I only see problems. Bart ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Tue, 2014-09-02 at 15:32 -0600, Bart wrote: So download it to your own computer using fetchmail or offline IMAP mode (or just dragging it between folders). IMAP doesn't force you to leave it on a server. There is no feature of POP which IMAP does not also have. Why perform an additional step? POP does that for me. IMAP does it for you as well if you configure it to do that. There is *no disadvantage* in functionality from using IMAP and considerable advantage in flexibility. The only reason to not use POP is if your service doesn't provide it. I know it passes through other systems, but I have some messages that reside for long periods of time in various email folders for various reasons. And, I feel a lot more secure doing so. If I lose my phone, or my iPad, or my laptop, I don't need to worry about my email accounts. If you lose a device and the device is not properly secured then your account is at risk whether it's IMAP or POP. Clearly in the IMAP case you are also trusting the server admin to take proper care of your stored mail, but you don't have to leave it there if you don't want to (see above). Not if the accounts don't exist on the portable device. My email goes to my desktop. My phone has one IMAP account that doesn't exist on my desktop. So you don't trust portable devices and have decided not to access certain email accounts on them. That has nothing to do with POP vs IMAP. I have tried using IMAP and frankly see no advantage at all. I only see problems. I'm not sure if you mean problems with IMAP in general, or with Evo's implementation of it. If you mean IMAP in general: you may not care about keeping things in folders on the server, or being able to access them from anywhere using multiple independent clients (including not having to back up and restore mail every time you get a new computer), or only downloading attachments if you actually want to look at them. If that's the case then POP is fine. I do care about those things, which is why I use IMAP almost exclusively (one account is with a provider that doesn't support it so it has to be POP). If you mean Evo's implementation: all the more reason not to divert scarce developer resources away from fixing any problems with IMAP. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Tue, 2014-09-02 at 22:19 +0200, Ángel González wrote: Moreover, that emails can be searched without a warrant in the US (where most email companies are) unless you haven't read it and it is newer than 180 days. It's worse than that. In a current case Microsoft is being sued by the US to present email messages that are stored in its servers in Ireland: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/technology/eu-rebukes-us-over-microsoft-email-in-first-test-of-privacy-1.1850750 poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Sat, 2014-08-30 at 12:29 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: On Sat, 2014-08-30 at 02:04 -0700, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: Since August 15th when Fedora made its latest upgrade for evolution available, evolution has been reporting a large number of failures communicating with my POP server at ATT -- putting up a box requesting the server password about 4 or 5 times per day. I have switched from having evolution fetch email itself to using fetchmail, which has reported no errors in the last 2 days. So I suspect that there has been an unfortunate change in evolution's code for POP. What are the errors it produces? I've only seen one type of error, which appears in a red bar at the top of the evolution window, typically when evolution asks for the POP server's password: Error while Fetching mail from 'jonr...@pacbell.net'. Cannot get POP summary: What do you get if you run Evo from the command line? Can you spot any relevant errors if you run it with debugging turned on? The file evolution.log generated by the command is attached: CAMEL_DEBUG=pop3 evolution 21 | tee evolution.log Nothing jumps out at me, but I'm not familiar with this kind of log. (evolution:5092): Gtk-WARNING **: Failed to register client: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.gnome.SessionManager was not provided by any .service files POP3_STREAM_LINE (69): '+OK hello from popgate-1.7.2_01.594742 pop108.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ' POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): CAPA POP3_STREAM_LINE (21): '+OK CAPA list follows' Got + response cmd_capa POP3_STREAM_LINE (38): 'IMPLEMENTATION popgate-1.7.2_01.594742' POP3_STREAM_LINE (4): 'XOIP' POP3_STREAM_LINE (12): 'EXPIRE-NEVER' POP3_STREAM_LINE (10): 'PIPELINING' POP3_STREAM_LINE (10): 'RESP-CODES' POP3_STREAM_LINE (3): 'TOP' POP3_STREAM_LINE (4): 'UIDL' POP3_STREAM_LINE (4): 'USER' POP3_STREAM_LINE (16): 'SASL LOGIN PLAIN' scanning tokens 'LOGIN PLAIN' got auth type 'LOGIN' got auth type 'PLAIN' POP3_STREAM_LINE (END) POP3_STREAM_WRITE (26): USER jonr...@pacbell.net POP3_STREAM_WRITE (15): PASS POP3_STREAM_LINE (22): '+OK password required.' Got + response POP3_STREAM_LINE (49): '+OK maildrop ready, 0 messages (0 octets) (40892)' Got + response POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): CAPA POP3_STREAM_LINE (21): '+OK CAPA list follows' Got + response cmd_capa POP3_STREAM_LINE (12): 'EXPIRE NEVER' POP3_STREAM_LINE (10): 'PIPELINING' POP3_STREAM_LINE (10): 'RESP-CODES' POP3_STREAM_LINE (3): 'TOP' POP3_STREAM_LINE (4): 'UIDL' POP3_STREAM_LINE (16): 'SASL LOGIN PLAIN' scanning tokens 'LOGIN PLAIN' got auth type 'LOGIN' got auth type 'PLAIN' POP3_STREAM_LINE (4): 'STLS' POP3_STREAM_LINE (END) opening pop3 INBOX folder POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): LIST POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): UIDL POP3_STREAM_LINE (25): '+OK 0 messages (0 octets)' Got + response POP3_STREAM_LINE (END) POP3_STREAM_LINE (25): '+OK 0 messages (0 octets)' Got + response POP3_STREAM_LINE (END) POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): QUIT POP3_STREAM_LINE (23): '+OK server signing off.' Got + response POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): QUIT POP3_STREAM_LINE (66): '+OK hello from popgate-0.8.0.504347 pop129.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ' POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): CAPA POP3_STREAM_LINE (21): '+OK CAPA list follows' Got + response cmd_capa POP3_STREAM_LINE (35): 'IMPLEMENTATION popgate-0.8.0.504347' POP3_STREAM_LINE (4): 'XOIP' POP3_STREAM_LINE (12): 'EXPIRE-NEVER' POP3_STREAM_LINE (10): 'PIPELINING' POP3_STREAM_LINE (10): 'RESP-CODES' POP3_STREAM_LINE (3): 'TOP' POP3_STREAM_LINE (4): 'UIDL' POP3_STREAM_LINE (4): 'USER' POP3_STREAM_LINE (16): 'SASL LOGIN PLAIN' scanning tokens 'LOGIN PLAIN' got auth type 'LOGIN' got auth type 'PLAIN' POP3_STREAM_LINE (END) POP3_STREAM_WRITE (26): USER jonr...@pacbell.net POP3_STREAM_WRITE (15): PASS POP3_STREAM_LINE (22): '+OK password required.' Got + response POP3_STREAM_LINE (49): '+OK maildrop ready, 0 messages (0 octets) (40892)' Got + response POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): CAPA POP3_STREAM_LINE (21): '+OK CAPA list follows' Got + response cmd_capa POP3_STREAM_LINE (12): 'EXPIRE NEVER' POP3_STREAM_LINE (10): 'PIPELINING' POP3_STREAM_LINE (10): 'RESP-CODES' POP3_STREAM_LINE (3): 'TOP' POP3_STREAM_LINE (4): 'UIDL' POP3_STREAM_LINE (16): 'SASL LOGIN PLAIN' scanning tokens 'LOGIN PLAIN' got auth type 'LOGIN' got auth type 'PLAIN' POP3_STREAM_LINE (4): 'STLS' POP3_STREAM_LINE (END) opening pop3 INBOX folder POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): LIST POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): UIDL POP3_STREAM_LINE (25): '+OK 0 messages (0 octets)' Got + response POP3_STREAM_LINE (END) POP3_STREAM_LINE (25): '+OK 0 messages (0 octets)' Got + response POP3_STREAM_LINE (END) POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): QUIT POP3_STREAM_LINE (23): '+OK server signing off.' Got + response POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): QUIT POP3_STREAM_LINE (69): '+OK hello from popgate-1.7.2_01.594742 pop223.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ' POP3_STREAM_WRITE (6): CAPA POP3_STREAM_LINE (21): '+OK CAPA list follows' Got + response cmd_capa POP3_STREAM_LINE (38): 'IMPLEMENTATION
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On 09/01/2014 04:41 AM, Pete Biggs wrote: I've only seen one type of error, which appears in a red bar at the top of the evolution window, typically when evolution asks for the POP server's password: Error while Fetching mail from 'jonr...@pacbell.net'. Cannot get POP summary: What do you get if you run Evo from the command line? Can you spot any relevant errors if you run it with debugging turned on? The file evolution.log generated by the command is attached: CAMEL_DEBUG=pop3 evolution 21 | tee evolution.log Nothing jumps out at me, but I'm not familiar with this kind of log. OK. The relevant error is: POP3_STREAM_WRITE (15): PASS POP3_STREAM_LINE (22): '+OK password required.' Got + response POP3_STREAM_LINE (47): '-ERR [SYS/TEMP] internal server error (#IS6532)' POP3_STREAM_WRITE (26): USER jonr...@pacbell.net Evolution is reporting an error because the Yahoo servers are giving an error. This isn't an Evolution problem as such - except in that when an error occurs, Evolution assumes it's an authentication problem and immediately prompts for a password. (The difference with something like Thunderbird is that it retries with the same password and it usually works the second time - hence it looks like everything is OK with another MUI.) There are lots of people complaining about this error on Yahoo driven systems (such as ATT, Pacbell, BT etc.) without much evidence of a solution (try Googling for yahoo mail is6532). The only place I've seen that claims a solution is: http://www.emailquestions.com/isp-free-email-support-forums/9255-fix-err-sys-temp-internal-server-error-is6532.html which implies that you need to use SSL for POP (i.e. POPS on port 995). So check your settings to make sure that's what you are using. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list Hello Pete and Evo List: Would it be difficult to change Evo to retry with the same password, like Thunderbird? It seems like a very useful strategy. --Marc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Mon, 2014-09-01 at 09:41 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: I've only seen one type of error, which appears in a red bar at the top of the evolution window, typically when evolution asks for the POP server's password: Error while Fetching mail from 'jonr...@pacbell.net'. Cannot get POP summary: What do you get if you run Evo from the command line? Can you spot any relevant errors if you run it with debugging turned on? The file evolution.log generated by the command is attached: CAMEL_DEBUG=pop3 evolution 21 | tee evolution.log Nothing jumps out at me, but I'm not familiar with this kind of log. OK. The relevant error is: POP3_STREAM_WRITE (15): PASS POP3_STREAM_LINE (22): '+OK password required.' Got + response POP3_STREAM_LINE (47): '-ERR [SYS/TEMP] internal server error (#IS6532)' POP3_STREAM_WRITE (26): USER jonr...@pacbell.net Evolution is reporting an error because the Yahoo servers are giving an error. This isn't an Evolution problem as such - except in that when an error occurs, Evolution assumes it's an authentication problem and immediately prompts for a password. (The difference with something like Thunderbird is that it retries with the same password and it usually works the second time - hence it looks like everything is OK with another MUI.) There are lots of people complaining about this error on Yahoo driven systems (such as ATT, Pacbell, BT etc.) without much evidence of a solution (try Googling for yahoo mail is6532). The only place I've seen that claims a solution is: http://www.emailquestions.com/isp-free-email-support-forums/9255-fix-err-sys-temp-internal-server-error-is6532.html which implies that you need to use SSL for POP (i.e. POPS on port 995). So check your settings to make sure that's what you are using. These are the exact settings in evolution for receiving email. If I remember correctly, evolution set this up for me automatically when I switched from fetchmail to evolution direct about a year ago. Thanks very much for the info. Everything is now clear. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Mon, 2014-09-01 at 10:25 -0400, Marc Hurst wrote: On 09/01/2014 04:41 AM, Pete Biggs wrote: ... Evolution is reporting an error because the Yahoo servers are giving an error. This isn't an Evolution problem as such - except in that when an error occurs, Evolution assumes it's an authentication problem and immediately prompts for a password. (The difference with something like Thunderbird is that it retries with the same password and it usually works the second time - hence it looks like everything is OK with another MUI.) Would it be difficult to change Evo to retry with the same password, like Thunderbird? It seems like a very useful strategy. I suspect that this is exactly what fetchmail is doing, and this is why fetchmail appears to be working OK. I can change the verbosity level in fetchmail's log and look it over. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Mon, 2014-09-01 at 07:59 -0700, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: On Mon, 2014-09-01 at 10:25 -0400, Marc Hurst wrote: On 09/01/2014 04:41 AM, Pete Biggs wrote: ... Evolution is reporting an error because the Yahoo servers are giving an error. This isn't an Evolution problem as such - except in that when an error occurs, Evolution assumes it's an authentication problem and immediately prompts for a password. (The difference with something like Thunderbird is that it retries with the same password and it usually works the second time - hence it looks like everything is OK with another MUI.) Would it be difficult to change Evo to retry with the same password, like Thunderbird? It seems like a very useful strategy. I suspect that this is exactly what fetchmail is doing, and this is why fetchmail appears to be working OK. I can change the verbosity level in fetchmail's log and look it over. Yup. Fetchmail just sleeps however long the ...rc file requires and tries again. There appears to be a limit to how long fetchmail will wait for an appropriate reply from a server. From the man page: The timeout option allows you to set a server-nonresponse timeout in seconds. If a mailserver does not send a greeting message or respond to commands for the given number of seconds, fetchmail will drop the connection to it. ... If a given connection receives too many timeouts in succession, fetchmail will consider it wedged and stop retrying. The calling user will be notified by email if this happens. This might be a good way for evolution to handle the problem. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
Since August 15th when Fedora made its latest upgrade for evolution available, evolution has been reporting a large number of failures communicating with my POP server at ATT -- putting up a box requesting the server password about 4 or 5 times per day. I have switched from having evolution fetch email itself to using fetchmail, which has reported no errors in the last 2 days. So I suspect that there has been an unfortunate change in evolution's code for POP. The upgrade was from/to (taken from yum.log): Jun 08 22:59:17 Updated: evolution-3.10.4-2.fc20.x86_64 Aug 15 15:30:43 Updated: evolution-3.10.4-3.fc20.x86_64 The system is Fedora-20 with all updates installed All the best - jon ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Errors receiving mail via POP
On Sat, 2014-08-30 at 02:04 -0700, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote: Since August 15th when Fedora made its latest upgrade for evolution available, evolution has been reporting a large number of failures communicating with my POP server at ATT -- putting up a box requesting the server password about 4 or 5 times per day. I have switched from having evolution fetch email itself to using fetchmail, which has reported no errors in the last 2 days. So I suspect that there has been an unfortunate change in evolution's code for POP. What are the errors it produces? What do you get if you run Evo from the command line? Can you spot any relevant errors if you run it with debugging turned on? P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
