[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard M compost1uk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I repeat my 2nd question above, with amplifcation: even if he had called for a stenographer on his deathbed and spelled out in no uncertain terms whether he believed in God or not, does what he believed affect you one way or another? Yes of course you're right. Wheeling in the heavyweight Einstein to try to serve some atheist agenda is ultimately completely pointless. But then pointing that out is just like picking up the ball in the middle of a soccer match and saying screw you, I'll just run to the net and throw it in! Isn't it more to the point that big E was no atheist anyway? I hung out with his granddaughter who told me that he was an atheist , and the family is very upset when his words are used out of their poetic context to try to prove a theistic agenda. She was proud of the atheistic perspective in her family just as much as any theistic believer. Einstein had a child by his first cousin? Ick Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard M compost1uk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I repeat my 2nd question above, with amplifcation: even if he had called for a stenographer on his deathbed and spelled out in no uncertain terms whether he believed in God or not, does what he believed affect you one way or another? Yes of course you're right. Wheeling in the heavyweight Einstein to try to serve some atheist agenda is ultimately completely pointless. But then pointing that out is just like picking up the ball in the middle of a soccer match and saying screw you, I'll just run to the net and throw it in! Isn't it more to the point that big E was no atheist anyway? I hung out with his granddaughter who told me that he was an atheist , and the family is very upset when his words are used out of their poetic context to try to prove a theistic agenda. She was proud of the atheistic perspective in her family just as much as any theistic believer. Einstein had a child by his first cousin? Ick Lawson He had 5 grandchildren by the elder son from his first marriage, so I guess you met one of those. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard M compost1uk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I repeat my 2nd question above, with amplifcation: even if he had called for a stenographer on his deathbed and spelled out in no uncertain terms whether he believed in God or not, does what he believed affect you one way or another? Yes of course you're right. Wheeling in the heavyweight Einstein to try to serve some atheist agenda is ultimately completely pointless. But then pointing that out is just like picking up the ball in the middle of a soccer match and saying screw you, I'll just run to the net and throw it in! Isn't it more to the point that big E was no atheist anyway? I hung out with his granddaughter who told me that he was an atheist , and the family is very upset when his words are used out of their poetic context to try to prove a theistic agenda. She was proud of the atheistic perspective in her family just as much as any theistic believer. Einstein had a child by his first cousin? Ick Lawson My jyotish teacher told me years ago that such a relationship you mentioned above happens quite often in Germany, although not sanctioned by the Catholic Church or other denominations over there.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: Wouldn't relying on his [Einstein's] judgment on this question as some kind of authority from the point of view of science be essentially the same thing as relying on the judgment of some supposed holy man in the past as being some kind of authority from the point of view of religion or spirituality? Ah, I see what you're getting at. I wouldn't rely on it unless it was some sort of actual implication that there was something unexplainable happening that really needed input from some sort of diety. Something like when the intelligent design crowd tried (and failed)to convince us that there were irreducable structures in nature that cannot have evolved without help. Or if there was proof that quantum theory actually *needed* god or consciousness or natural law to operate. So far nothing has implied that god is needed but obviously that just leaves the question open, can't prove a negative and all that. Yup. And unless they have a particular angle to push, like Hagelin or Deutsch, physicists just say they don't know but the maths works so let's just get on with it. That's sorta my approach as well. Einstein kept using the word mystery to describe the universe; that works for me. And I get off on mysteries, so I'm content. :-) In a nutshell, I wouldn't consider Einstiens view to be the same as a holy man whatever he claimed to have seen or to have spoken to, provided it was arrived at as an unavoidable conclusion to explain observations. But that's just arriving at a conclusion using a structured way of thinking and valuing a certain point of view. I don't see that it has any more validity than the completely subjective I know there is a God because I have experienced it point of view. snippus interruptus You bring up quantum physics. Ok, give each of these three guys an electron microscope and have them describe for you the position of a single electron around the nucleus of an atom. According to quantum physics, each of them would give you a different answer. And each of them would be *right*, because for them the electron really IS where they perceive it to be. It is ALSO in no position at all, and exists only as a set of probabil- ities and potentials. Isn't it possible that the issue of the existence or non-existence of God is a similar conundrum? As far as I can tell, NONE of these three guys was an authority on anything but their own perceptions of the universe and what sense they'd managed to assign to those percep- tions. None of them knew the truth because the truth is as elusive as that electron; it can't be pinned down, and it exists only moment- arily, when perceived by a sentient being. And it is a *different* truth for every sentient being. Call me weird, but I find inspiration and uplift- ment in this concept, not any kind of challenge. No that isn't weird, to me weird is being certain about things like this. Exactly. How ludicrous is it for Hagelin to use Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle to prove his certainty about how the world works, eh? :-) Because there is a level beyond which we cannot know. The thing to remember about quantum physics is no-one knows how it works. A joyous mystery. I curse the fact I can't do the maths involved, practical upshots are cool but QP is the real philosophy now.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 3:38 PM, tertonzeno wrote: Sounds suspiciously like something a Buddhist Magazine would make up on their own; but so far I have been unable to confirm the authenticity of the quote, as to source. It sure does. Let us know if you find the source! For what it's worth, I've always found Tricycle to be by far the best of the Buddhist publications. They sell no teacher, they push no agenda, they just talk intelligently about Buddhist thought in all its forms and variants. And they've attracted some of the best thinkers in the business into their pages -- Rick Fields, Pico Ayer, Simone Garrigues, Terence McKenna, Robert Aitken, Ram Dass, Joan Halifax, dozens of others. Tricycle isn't like Global Good News. They don't have to make up things to fill their pages.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo richardhughes103@ wrote: In a nutshell, I wouldn't consider Einstiens view to be the same as a holy man whatever he claimed to have seen or to have spoken to, provided it was arrived at as an unavoidable conclusion to explain observations. But that's just arriving at a conclusion using a structured way of thinking and valuing a certain point of view. I don't see that it has any more validity than the completely subjective I know there is a God because I have experienced it point of view. You're quite right and I like looking at things like that ;-) My POV depends on whether the person experiencing God is experiencing something outside of themselves, as in biblical tales, or having a purely internal experience of something they ascribe the concept of God to because they simply have no other explanation because of how overpowering it is. I've had God experiences while meditating and I'm convinced as I can be that no other explanation is required than that my brain has fallen into some previously unimagined state. Suppose I'd had that experience spontaneously and had no prior interest in eastern philosophy or psychology, would I just pass it off as a cool experience or head for the nearest monastery and pledge my life to Gods service I'm really not being facetious, people do this. I know someone who had a total christian conversion, she had no strong feelings either way and suddenly Wham! her life was changed forever. I'll never know what it was like or how I would have reacted. But it must have been powerful as she never came back from the christian group she moved in with. I'll also never know if other people have had the same experience as me or if my experiences were influenced by what I'd read about enlightenment before learning. I can remember having a set of experiences of the states you need to pass through according to MMY, CC,GC and unity. They were so clearly delineated that at the time I thought it was confirmation of MMY's path but as I'd read all about it before then I got a bit suspicious that I'd loaded my unconscious and it just provided what I wanted to see. I think there has to be an original mystical experience otherwise where did we get the idea from? That's all internal, I think Einstien was commenting on whether there is an interventionist external God, someone or something that has helped shape the universe or human affairs. Can we have reliable internal knowledge of such a thing and be sure it is seperate from our cultural preferences? Or is my friends sudden conversion the intervention Einstien would have got off the fence about? I think, but don't know, that Alb would have taken Dawkins position. Richard Dawkins learned TM but didn't have any mystical experiences, but said that if he had he would have passed them off as neurological *only* I think he's right, no matter how amazing it gets my feet stay metaphysically on the ground. What do you think? I can see how my POV allows only two options, obviously there may be more. perhaps Tony Naders' theories of man being an expression of Vedic literature is a way for the external God being internal at the same time and indeed being the same thing! I like a good paradigm shift, be fun if that ended up being taught in schools! snippus interruptus Call me weird, but I find inspiration and uplift- ment in this concept, not any kind of challenge. No that isn't weird, to me weird is being certain about things like this. Exactly. How ludicrous is it for Hagelin to use Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle to prove his certainty about how the world works, eh? :-) It's just the sort of thing that will keep him forever in the side-show of physics. Far better to admit that it remains a mystery.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tertonzeno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --From the Buddhist magazine Tricycle (but original source unknown). Einstein says I'm no Einstein. Sorry - wrong quote. Einstein said: Buddism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and spiritual; and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity. Sounds suspiciously like something a Buddhist Magazine would make up on their own; but so far I have been unable to confirm the authenticity of the quote, as to source. Do your homework. :-) A two-minute Web search turned up: Those words of Einstein about Buddhism are quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, Helen Dukas Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press (1954). Helen Dukas was Albert Einstein's secretary as well as one of the holders of the Einstein's literary rights to all of his manuscripts, copyrights, publication rights, royalties, and royalty agreements. But, I hasten to point out, this quote does not make him a Buddhist any more than quotes musing about the nature of God make him a deist. He just understood and appreciated its principles.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo richardhughes103@ wrote: In a nutshell, I wouldn't consider Einstiens view to be the same as a holy man whatever he claimed to have seen or to have spoken to, provided it was arrived at as an unavoidable conclusion to explain observations. But that's just arriving at a conclusion using a structured way of thinking and valuing a certain point of view. I don't see that it has any more validity than the completely subjective I know there is a God because I have experienced it point of view. You're quite right and I like looking at things like that ;-) My POV depends on whether the person experiencing God is experiencing something outside of themselves, as in biblical tales, or having a purely internal experience of something they ascribe the concept of God to because they simply have no other explanation because of how overpowering it is. Or because they have been taught by their culture to explain unexplainable experiences in terms of Godspeak. I've had God experiences while meditating and I'm convinced as I can be that no other explanation is required than that my brain has fallen into some previously unimagined state. Suppose I'd had that experience spontaneously and had no prior interest in eastern philosophy or psychology, would I just pass it off as a cool experience or head for the nearest monastery and pledge my life to Gods service I'm really not being facetious, people do this. Indeed they do. You're talking to a whole forum full of them. :-) BUT, the experiences we had were pretty much all pre-explained for us. We were *set up* to inter- pret them a certain way. You bring up one of the most interesting aspects of religious anthropology. There have been many papers and books written on this phenomenon of pre-explanation. For example, a Hopi shaman, a Christian, and a Buddhist all have the same hazy experience. When pressed to describe the experience *without* any interpretation -- Just the facts, ma'am -- all of them describe the experience similarly. An experience of light and expansiveness. But allowed to describe the same experience *with* interpretation, the Hopi describes it in terms of his myths, the Christian in terms of being an appearance of Jesus, and the Buddhist in terms of Voidness. Go figure. I know someone who had a total christian conversion, she had no strong feelings either way and suddenly Wham! her life was changed forever. I'll never know what it was like or how I would have reacted. But it must have been powerful as she never came back from the christian group she moved in with. I'll also never know if other people have had the same experience as me or if my experiences were influenced by what I'd read about enlightenment before learning. Yup. Curtis has been very valuable to me in terms of inspiring me to go back and re-analyze some of the experiences I've had from other points of view, to see if they hold up. Some do, some don't. But there is little question that my set up FOR the experiences colored my interpretation of them at the time. I can remember having a set of experiences of the states you need to pass through according to MMY, CC,GC and unity. They were so clearly delineated that at the time I thought it was confirmation of MMY's path but as I'd read all about it before then I got a bit suspicious that I'd loaded my unconscious and it just provided what I wanted to see. I think there has to be an original mystical experience otherwise where did we get the idea from? From other human beings trying their damnedest to explain the unexplainable? :-) That's all internal, I think Einstien was commenting on whether there is an interventionist external God, someone or something that has helped shape the universe or human affairs. You make an excellent point with your use of the word interventionist. All of his quotes that are used by God freaks to bolster *their* belief in God are Einstein's appreciation of God as just another word for an underlying sense of Unity in the universe. That's a far cry from believing in or even accepting the notion of a *sentient* Unity that can *affect* the universe, or even perceive it. Can we have reliable internal knowledge of such a thing and be sure it is seperate from our cultural preferences? I don't believe we can, but I also recognize the impossibility of convincing those who feel that they know that there is a sentient and inter- ventionist God that they are making it all up based on their own cultural imprinting. Or is my friends sudden conversion the intervention Einstien would have got off the fence about? I think, but don't know, that Alb would have taken Dawkins position. Richard Dawkins learned TM but
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
TurquoiseB wrote: If you meet someone who claims to 'know' things, run the other way. LOL! Lenz claims to be one of the 12 truly enlightened beings on the planet. (Obvious question: who are the other 11? 'I'm not at liberty to say.') What he promises is an easy way to Nirvana. Buddhist tradition holds that there are two paths to enlightenment, the fast and the slow -- the slow one takes thousands of lifetimes, while the quick one can lead to enlightenment in just one. Lenz's path, a third, might be called the express lane. He claims techniques so powerful that an hour with him is worth 100 years of traditional meditation... 'Who Is This Rama?' http://tinyurl.com/5o4bhb
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
Vaj wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday. What is it with you people, you can't seem to resist race-baiting these days. Sal wants to argue about Obama's race and Hillary's gender; Curtis wants to paint the Hindus as racists, Barry wants to paint the TMers are brainwashed, now Vaj wants to let us know that he's a Jew-baiting atheist. This is outrageous! What is going on with you people? Today, Israel remains the region's only democracy, replete with a resoundingly free press and an independent judiciary. It is the only country in the region where Arab women have the right to vote. In 60 years, Israelis have created a modern nation-state, absorbing millions of immigrants, building prestigious educational institutions and making great advances in agriculture, medicine and technology that have helped the world. This has been accomplished in what can only be called a challenging environment. Read more: 'Israel at 60' By Steve Hunges Minneapolis Star-Tribune, May 6, 2008 http://tinyurl.com/3kz6n2
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vaj wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday. What is it with you people, you can't seem to resist race-baiting these days. Sal wants to argue about Obama's race and Hillary's gender; Curtis wants to paint the Hindus as racists, Barry wants to paint the TMers are brainwashed, now Vaj wants to let us know that he's a Jew-baiting atheist. This is outrageous! What is going on with you people? Today, Israel remains the region's only democracy, replete with a resoundingly free press and an independent judiciary. It is the only country in the region where Arab women have the right to vote. In 60 years, Israelis have created a modern nation-state, absorbing millions of immigrants, building prestigious educational institutions and making great advances in agriculture, medicine and technology that have helped the world. This has been accomplished in what can only be called a challenging environment. Challenging because they ethnically cleansed the original inhabitants, and continue to encroach on their land. 300,000 illegal settlers at the last count. But posting the Einstein letter isn't racist, amongst other things the letter is about Einstiens view of the Jews vision of *themselves* as gods chosen people. An opinion I've always considered a tad hubristic, as Alb says; As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them. Did you notice the lack of power bit, prescient or what? Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday. I think Einstein distinguished very much between an immanent and non-personal God (for which he seems to have had a soft spot), versus a personal, Judeo-Christian father-on-high which is what this quote (if true) is referring to. I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. Although that was 1921 (I think), I don't think the letter shows he changed his mind. A Dawkins he certainly wasn't!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
I think that's accurate--at least it squares with some extensive study of his writings that I've done. --- Richard M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday. I think Einstein distinguished very much between an immanent and non-personal God (for which he seems to have had a soft spot), versus a personal, Judeo-Christian father-on-high which is what this quote (if true) is referring to. I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. Although that was 1921 (I think), I don't think the letter shows he changed his mind. A Dawkins he certainly wasn't! Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well he does get pretty specific: No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this So I think that may rule out finer and more subtle interpretations of God. But what can be more specific than his statement I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists? You must presumably hold the view that your quotation that seems hostile to God is later, and represents a change of mind on Einstein's part? Yet here he is in 1973 (adapting Kant): Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind. Enough to make Dawkins start foaming at the mouth...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
On May 13, 2008, at 11:56 AM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday. I think Einstein distinguished very much between an immanent and non-personal God (for which he seems to have had a soft spot), versus a personal, Judeo-Christian father-on-high which is what this quote (if true) is referring to. I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. Although that was 1921 (I think), I don't think the letter shows he changed his mind. A Dawkins he certainly wasn't! Well he does get pretty specific: No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this So I think that may rule out finer and more subtle interpretations of God.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
Richard Hughes wrote: Challenging because they ethnically cleansed the original inhabitants, and continue to encroach on their land. So, you're thinking that God gave to the Arabs the land of Canaan, but the Canaanites, the original inhabitants, were ethnically cleansed by the Arabs, and that the Canaanites continue to encroach on the Arab's lands? This doesn't even make any sense. The Canaanites were, if anyone, the original inhabatants of Canaan, not the 'Philistines' who came much later. But it is a fact that the Arabs came after the Philistines, who were assimilated into the Canaanite society. So, if anyone is the 'ethnic cleanser' it would be the Arabs who claim their God gave them the land of Canaan. But it seems to me that the Canaanites were the owners of the land in the first place. So, I'm thinking that the 'Palestinians' are either Jordanians or Egyptians - they are not related to the Philistines at all - they should give all the land back to the Canaanites and they should all go back home to Jordan or to Egypt, where they came from and leave the Judeans alone. And what, exactly, besides getting thousnads of people killed in three wars, has Egypt and Jordan done for the poor Arab people living in the West Bank and Gaza?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
On May 13, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance? No, I'm just commenting on the recently discovered remarks made late in his life. Unless it was written after the recent quote, I'll assume his later remarks in this letter supercede the one above.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard Hughes wrote: Challenging because they ethnically cleansed the original inhabitants, and continue to encroach on their land. So, you're thinking that God gave to the Arabs the land of Canaan, but the Canaanites, the original inhabitants, were ethnically cleansed by the Arabs, and that the Canaanites continue to encroach on the Arab's lands? This doesn't even make any sense. You're telling me! I wouldn't attempt to justify the imperialist crimes of the present by those commited thousands of years ago by people who didn't know any better. We do know better. Besides, I don't think god gave the land to anyone, it's just an excuse people use to justify their acts of slaughter. The sooner we grow out of ignorant supertsition the better I reckon. Einstein had it spot on They are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power Not anymore. And what, exactly, besides getting thousnads of people killed in three wars, has Egypt and Jordan done for the poor Arab people living in the West Bank and Gaza? I'm getting a little tingle of deja vu... ...have we had this conversation before? Anyway, I'm glad you've come round to seeing that the residents of GWB are being hard done by.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willytex@ wrote: Vaj wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday. What is it with you people, you can't seem to resist race-baiting these days. Sal wants to argue about Obama's race and Hillary's gender; Curtis wants to paint the Hindus as racists, Barry wants to paint the TMers are brainwashed, now Vaj wants to let us know that he's a Jew-baiting atheist. This is outrageous! What is going on with you people? Today, Israel remains the region's only democracy, replete with a resoundingly free press and an independent judiciary. It is the only country in the region where Arab women have the right to vote. In 60 years, Israelis have created a modern nation-state, absorbing millions of immigrants, building prestigious educational institutions and making great advances in agriculture, medicine and technology that have helped the world. This has been accomplished in what can only be called a challenging environment. Challenging because they ethnically cleansed the original inhabitants, and continue to encroach on their land. 300,000 illegal settlers at the last count. And Isreal would not exist without America and Richard J. Williams, who ethnically cleansed the whole of America and built their country on the backs of slaves and oppressed peoples. OffWorld
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance? No, I'm just commenting on the recently discovered remarks made late in his life. Unless it was written after the recent quote, I'll assume his later remarks in this letter supercede the one above. Can I ask a simple question? What the FUCK does it matter whether one intellectual guy whose theoretical work in physics had lamentably practical applications believed in God or not? Does what he believed affect any of you one way or another? It seems to me that the it makes me angry quote is about what YOU are all trying to do to him -- put him in a box and use what you believe his beliefs were to bolster your own. My grandfather (who was a Quaker and who worked with Einstein for many years) told my father that he had NO IDEA what Einstein believed one way or another. And you think you're going to figure it out from isolated quotes he made at random points in his life? I repeat my 2nd question above, with amplifcation: even if he had called for a stenographer on his deathbed and spelled out in no uncertain terms whether he believed in God or not, does what he believed affect you one way or another?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vaj wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday. What is it with you people, you can't seem to resist race-baiting these days. Sal wants to argue about Obama's race and Hillary's gender; Curtis wants to paint the Hindus as racists, Barry wants to paint the TMers are brainwashed, now Vaj wants to let us know that he's a Jew-baiting atheist. This is outrageous! What is going on with you people? Today, Israel remains the region's only democracy, replete with a resoundingly free press and an independent judiciary. It is the only country in the region where Arab women have the right to vote. In 60 years, Israelis have created a modern nation-state, absorbing millions of immigrants, building prestigious educational institutions and making great advances in agriculture, medicine and technology that have helped the world. This has been accomplished in what can only be called a challenging environment. Have you ever been to Israel Richard J. Williams? I have, and I have hitch-hiked around Isreal and West Bank, and in all my travels in my life I never saw more appartheid, dehumanising fascist policies, and oppression than there was there (except on the giant Navajo reservation in Arizona.) OffWorld
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance? No, I'm just commenting on the recently discovered remarks made late in his life. Unless it was written after the recent quote, I'll assume his later remarks in this letter supercede the one above. Can I ask a simple question? What the FUCK does it matter whether one intellectual guy whose theoretical work in physics had lamentably practical applications believed in God or not? Not much, but it matters WAY more than your insignificant opinion. OffWorld.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
On May 13, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance? No, I'm just commenting on the recently discovered remarks made late in his life. Unless it was written after the recent quote, I'll assume his later remarks in this letter supercede the one above. Why assume that? The guy spends his whole life consistently advocating his respect for the numinous, denigrating philistine atheism, but also trying to explain his non-belief in the personal Judeo-Christian God, and you seize on some letter at auction dated from 1954 to show...what? That Einstein was really an atheist? (even if true, why would later Einstein have more insight than earlier Einstein, which is after all when his insight seemed most profound?) . Are you seriously saying later Einstein would have said (to paraphrase) But what really makes me happy is that they (atheists) quote me for the support of such views.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
On May 13, 2008, at 1:51 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: Can I ask a simple question? What the FUCK does it matter whether one intellectual guy whose theoretical work in physics had lamentably practical applications believed in God or not? Does what he believed affect any of you one way or another? It seems to me that the it makes me angry quote is about what YOU are all trying to do to him -- put him in a box and use what you believe his beliefs were to bolster your own. My grandfather (who was a Quaker and who worked with Einstein for many years) told my father that he had NO IDEA what Einstein believed one way or another. And you think you're going to figure it out from isolated quotes he made at random points in his life? Probably not, although it's interesting to hear his opinions towards the end of his life. I repeat my 2nd question above, with amplifcation: even if he had called for a stenographer on his deathbed and spelled out in no uncertain terms whether he believed in God or not, does what he believed affect you one way or another? It doesn't affect me at all, it's really just a minor curiosity.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
On May 13, 2008, at 1:56 PM, Richard M wrote: Why assume that? The guy spends his whole life consistently advocating his respect for the numinous, denigrating philistine atheism, but also trying to explain his non-belief in the personal Judeo-Christian God, and you seize on some letter at auction dated from 1954 to show...what? I didn't write the article, it's just an interesting quote and comment, that's really all. That Einstein was really an atheist? (even if true, why would later Einstein have more insight than earlier Einstein, which is after all when his insight seemed most profound?) . Perhaps a more mature view, who knows? He's dead, we can't ask him. It's really just another interesting remark from a interesting person. Are you seriously saying later Einstein would have said (to paraphrase) But what really makes me happy is that they (atheists) quote me for the support of such views. You're reading way to much into the article IMO. It's simply interesting to hear what he, in particular, had to say near the end of his life. But I doubt we can conclude anything definitive from a single letter, but it is interesting what he says in private, to a philosopher, in his maturity.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 1:51 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: I repeat my 2nd question above, with amplifcation: even if he had called for a stenographer on his deathbed and spelled out in no uncertain terms whether he believed in God or not, does what he believed affect you one way or another? It doesn't affect me at all, it's really just a minor curiosity. Good answer. As minor curiosity it has entertainment value. But isn't it fascinating how *seriously* and how *emotionally* some people react to the minor entertainment of what some famous person believed or didn't? Or even what some non-famous person believes or doesn't. We've all seen the hysterical reactions here when one of us owns up to not believing in a sentient God. WTF, right? What is it about what *we* believe or don't that affects them enough to get all emotional about it? Now THAT is a source of minor curiosity for me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I repeat my 2nd question above, with amplifcation: even if he had called for a stenographer on his deathbed and spelled out in no uncertain terms whether he believed in God or not, does what he believed affect you one way or another? Yes of course you're right. Wheeling in the heavyweight Einstein to try to serve some atheist agenda is ultimately completely pointless. But then pointing that out is just like picking up the ball in the middle of a soccer match and saying screw you, I'll just run to the net and throw it in! Isn't it more to the point that big E was no atheist anyway?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I repeat my 2nd question above, with amplifcation: even if he had called for a stenographer on his deathbed and spelled out in no uncertain terms whether he believed in God or not, does what he believed affect you one way or another? Yes of course you're right. Wheeling in the heavyweight Einstein to try to serve some atheist agenda is ultimately completely pointless. But then pointing that out is just like picking up the ball in the middle of a soccer match and saying screw you, I'll just run to the net and throw it in! Isn't it more to the point that big E was no atheist anyway? You don't know that. No one does. His biographers are consistent in saying that he didn't ever commit himself one way or another. He'd say one thing in one context and another in another context, and people pick the ones they like and ignore the ones they don't and think that they've bagged him. Me, I respect his non-baggability.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
Granted that Einstein is an admirable scientist. However, he cannot change the world belief tradition overnight, nor can he influence how the people in Israel think today. It is admirable that the Israelis have built a modern society in their land amidst the war and chaos in the Middle East. Nonetheless, advances in technology do not necessarily mean that any group possessing such technology or the Israelis are more enlightened than their neighbors. Possession of such technologies can contribute to reliance and dependence on materialism. Thus, modern technologies can lead to ignorance of the Absolute. The conditions in the Middle East are very complicated to say the least. I don't believe any groups over there are more enlightened than the other. They are all trapped in the cycle of death and mayhem. It's very easy to say that the conditions over there are shaped by the karma of the past. It's also conceivable that millions of people have died and returned through reincarnation and died again for the very same reasons that plague that land today. When will it end? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vaj wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday. What is it with you people, you can't seem to resist race-baiting these days. Sal wants to argue about Obama's race and Hillary's gender; Curtis wants to paint the Hindus as racists, Barry wants to paint the TMers are brainwashed, now Vaj wants to let us know that he's a Jew-baiting atheist. This is outrageous! What is going on with you people? Today, Israel remains the region's only democracy, replete with a resoundingly free press and an independent judiciary. It is the only country in the region where Arab women have the right to vote. In 60 years, Israelis have created a modern nation-state, absorbing millions of immigrants, building prestigious educational institutions and making great advances in agriculture, medicine and technology that have helped the world. This has been accomplished in what can only be called a challenging environment. Read more: 'Israel at 60' By Steve Hunges Minneapolis Star-Tribune, May 6, 2008 http://tinyurl.com/3kz6n2
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I repeat my 2nd question above, with amplifcation: even if he had called for a stenographer on his deathbed and spelled out in no uncertain terms whether he believed in God or not, does what he believed affect you one way or another? Yes of course you're right. Wheeling in the heavyweight Einstein to try to serve some atheist agenda is ultimately completely pointless. But then pointing that out is just like picking up the ball in the middle of a soccer match and saying screw you, I'll just run to the net and throw it in! Isn't it more to the point that big E was no atheist anyway? I hung out with his granddaughter who told me that he was an atheist , and the family is very upset when his words are used out of their poetic context to try to prove a theistic agenda. She was proud of the atheistic perspective in her family just as much as any theistic believer.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance? No, I'm just commenting on the recently discovered remarks made late in his life. Unless it was written after the recent quote, I'll assume his later remarks in this letter supercede the one above. Can I ask a simple question? What the FUCK does it matter whether one intellectual guy whose theoretical work in physics had lamentably practical applications believed in God or not? Does what he believed affect any of you one way or another? Not actually *affected* but very interested because Einstein had a very deep insight into the nature of things, though not as much as the quantum physicists of his day, and consequently if he thought there was a god hiding anywhere he would have had a seriously good practical reason for thinking so.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance? No, I'm just commenting on the recently discovered remarks made late in his life. Unless it was written after the recent quote, I'll assume his later remarks in this letter supercede the one above. Can I ask a simple question? What the FUCK does it matter whether one intellectual guy whose theoretical work in physics had lamentably practical applications believed in God or not? Does what he believed affect any of you one way or another? Not actually *affected* but very interested because Einstein had a very deep insight into the nature of things, though not as much as the quantum physicists of his day, and consequently if he thought there was a god hiding anywhere he would have had a seriously good practical reason for thinking so. And? I'm not trying to argue with you...I hope you understand that. I'm just posing that question: And? What he believed about the existence or non-existence of God has no relationship to the existence or non-existence of God. Wouldn't relying on *his* judgment on this question as some kind of authority from the point of view of science be essentially the same thing as relying on the judgment of some supposed holy man in the past as being some kind of authority from the point of view of religion or spirituality? Bottom line was that Albert Einstein was just a guy. Buddha was just a guy. Shankara was just a guy. Put everything they believed about the existence or non-existence of God into a hat, shake it, and you still have what three guys thought about the existence or non-existence of God. As it turns out, one of these guys seemed to have believed in a God, one definitely did not, and the third walked the line and refused to commit one way or another. But even if all three had agreed, what affect would that have on the world? Why would what they believed have any more credence than what anyone else believes? You bring up quantum physics. Ok, give each of these three guys an electron microscope and have them describe for you the position of a single electron around the nucleus of an atom. According to quantum physics, each of them would give you a different answer. And each of them would be *right*, because for them the electron really IS where they perceive it to be. It is ALSO in no position at all, and exists only as a set of probabil- ities and potentials. Isn't it possible that the issue of the existence or non-existence of God is a similar conundrum? As far as I can tell, NONE of these three guys was an authority on anything but their own perceptions of the universe and what sense they'd managed to assign to those percep- tions. None of them knew the truth because the truth is as elusive as that electron; it can't be pinned down, and it exists only moment- arily, when perceived by a sentient being. And it is a *different* truth for every sentient being. Call me weird, but I find inspiration and uplift- ment in this concept, not any kind of challenge.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hung out with his granddaughter who told me that he was an atheist , and the family is very upset when his words are used out of their poetic context to try to prove a theistic agenda. She was proud of the atheistic perspective in her family just as much as any theistic believer. This is all getting a bit weird. I don't like to see Einstein trotted out to shore up atheism, so I quoted him saying that he didn't like that either (sat on the fence as he may have been). Some don't care tuppence what Einstein thought on religion anyway of course; Even fewer care what the Einstein family's thoughts are? (especially when appearing to contradict his own writings?). (On another matter, like you it seems, I've gone back to a bit of TM after a long abscence! I suppose it could be described as 'sitting on the fence with a mantra').
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--From the Buddhist magazine Tricycle (but original source unknown). Einstein says I'm no Einstein. Sorry - wrong quote. Einstein said: Buddism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and spiritual; and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity. Sounds suspiciously like something a Buddhist Magazine would make up on their own; but so far I have been unable to confirm the authenticity of the quote, as to source. - In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance? No, I'm just commenting on the recently discovered remarks made late in his life. Unless it was written after the recent quote, I'll assume his later remarks in this letter supercede the one above. Can I ask a simple question? What the FUCK does it matter whether one intellectual guy whose theoretical work in physics had lamentably practical applications believed in God or not? Does what he believed affect any of you one way or another? Not actually *affected* but very interested because Einstein had a very deep insight into the nature of things, though not as much as the quantum physicists of his day, and consequently if he thought there was a god hiding anywhere he would have had a seriously good practical reason for thinking so. And? I'm not trying to argue with you...I hope you understand that. I'm just posing that question: And? What he believed about the existence or non-existence of God has no relationship to the existence or non-existence of God. Wouldn't relying on *his* judgment on this question as some kind of authority from the point of view of science be essentially the same thing as relying on the judgment of some supposed holy man in the past as being some kind of authority from the point of view of religion or spirituality? Bottom line was that Albert Einstein was just a guy. Buddha was just a guy. Shankara was just a guy. Put everything they believed about the existence or non-existence of God into a hat, shake it, and you still have what three guys thought about the existence or non-existence of God. As it turns out, one of these guys seemed to have believed in a God, one definitely did not, and the third walked the line and refused to commit one way or another. But even if all three had agreed, what affect would that have on the world? Why would what they believed have any more credence than what anyone else believes? You bring up quantum physics. Ok, give each of these three guys an electron microscope and have them describe for you the position of a single electron around the nucleus of an atom. According to quantum physics, each of them would give you a different answer. And each of them would be *right*, because for them the electron really IS where they perceive it to be. It is ALSO in no position at all, and exists only as a set of probabil- ities and potentials. Isn't it possible that the issue of the existence or non-existence of God is a similar conundrum? As far as I can tell, NONE of these three guys was an authority on anything but their own perceptions of the universe and what sense they'd managed to assign to those percep- tions. None of them knew the truth because the truth is as elusive as that electron; it can't be pinned down, and it exists only moment- arily, when perceived by a sentient being. And it is a *different* truth for every sentient being. Call me weird, but I find inspiration and uplift- ment in this concept, not any kind of challenge.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
So, you're thinking that God gave to the Arabs the land of Canaan, but the Canaanites, the original inhabitants, were ethnically cleansed by the Arabs, and that the Canaanites continue to encroach on the Arab's lands? This doesn't even make any sense. Richard Hughes wrote: You're telling me! I wouldn't attempt to justify the imperialist crimes of the present by those commited thousands of years ago by people who didn't know any better. We do know better. The state of Israel was sponsored by the United Nations. The operative word here is 'United', in other words, all the nations got together and they all agreed that there should be two states in the land called the Levant, (with a divided city called Jerusalem) - an Arab one, and an Israeli one. They all agreed on this. Except for the Arabs who rejected this agreement and so the Arabs started shooting and throwing bombs at innocent women and children. Then, the Arabs got together with the Syrians, the Jordanians, the Egyptians, and started three wars with Israel, in which thousands of people were killed. And now think the Israelis should do what? Besides, I don't think god gave the land to anyone, it's just an excuse people use to justify their acts of slaughter. The sooner we grow out of ignorant supertsition the better I reckon. Apparently the Muslim Arabs believe that God gave them the land of Canaan - it's in their Bible. Einstein had it spot on They are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power Not anymore. And what, exactly, besides getting thousnads of people killed in three wars, has Egypt and Jordan done for the poor Arab people living in the West Bank and Gaza? I'm getting a little tingle of deja vu... ...have we had this conversation before? Anyway, I'm glad you've come round to seeing that the residents of GWB are being hard done by. Well, I'm thinking that the Arab Muslims, and their sponsors, 'The Arab League' should start changing their attitude. I really doubt that the United Nations is going to start negotiating with a terrorist organization like the Hamas. I would think that having two states, one Israeli and one Arab, should work out just like the United Nations planned it. That would be better than having terrorists shooting rockets at schools and children in Israel.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
(On another matter, like you it seems, I've gone back to a bit of TM after a long abscence! I suppose it could be described as 'sitting on the fence with a mantra'). That was an excellent line! I think it is hard to sus out people's real spiritual beliefs from quotes. For an atheist, all the phrases of religion are poetry, so people could pick out quotes from me that sound like I believe in one of the many God's. But I really, really don't. Getting back to the quote: I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. If you want to define the order we see in nature as God with no other ability to act as a being, I would have no trouble with that. We have basically re-defined the word out of all its naughty bits. I could even wax poetic about the fact of order in life that keeps it going. But again, that is so far from any traditional definition of God that it makes it all a moot point. If we can redefine God as morning wood, the power of the resurrection, I'll become the Deacon of the new church. Plus we have to understand who the atheist was talking with. If I am seeking rapport with someone who is religious, I don't clonk them on the head about my disbelief. I nod at their assertions and put on my cocktail party manners. (without the wanton groping that goes on during one of my actual cocktail parties) I might even throw out an innocuous line if I like the person and am not trying to create disharmony, like: I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, (now leading towards my own perspective) not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (I'm not claiming that is what Einstein was doing, just that statement of belief are often context dependent. He might have told Marylin Monroe he believed in God to end up in a situation to hear her say Oh God! The word atheist is highly unsatisfactory in describing someone's perspective, it is a negation not an assertion. So we will never know what Einstein really believed or didn't believe. And just because his granddaughter said he was an atheist doesn't make it so. But she is as close as I will ever get to the old guy himself, so that resonates most for me. She was involved in an exit counseling case I was on to get a person out of a cult, so I ended up spending a lot of time with her. She was very passionate about speaking out against magical thinking, so it was a bit of an up topic for her concerning her Grandfather's quotes ending up on New Age posters. She remembered him fondly. I am doing a school audition for a county Arts council tomorrow with a guy who impersonates Einstein for his school show. He is an Einstein nut so I'll try to hit him with the question to see if he has any further insight. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I hung out with his granddaughter who told me that he was an atheist , and the family is very upset when his words are used out of their poetic context to try to prove a theistic agenda. She was proud of the atheistic perspective in her family just as much as any theistic believer. This is all getting a bit weird. I don't like to see Einstein trotted out to shore up atheism, so I quoted him saying that he didn't like that either (sat on the fence as he may have been). Some don't care tuppence what Einstein thought on religion anyway of course; Even fewer care what the Einstein family's thoughts are? (especially when appearing to contradict his own writings?). (On another matter, like you it seems, I've gone back to a bit of TM after a long abscence! I suppose it could be described as 'sitting on the fence with a mantra').
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance? No, I'm just commenting on the recently discovered remarks made late in his life. Unless it was written after the recent quote, I'll assume his later remarks in this letter supercede the one above. Can I ask a simple question? What the FUCK does it matter whether one intellectual guy whose theoretical work in physics had lamentably practical applications believed in God or not? Does what he believed affect any of you one way or another? Not actually *affected* but very interested because Einstein had a very deep insight into the nature of things, though not as much as the quantum physicists of his day, and consequently if he thought there was a god hiding anywhere he would have had a seriously good practical reason for thinking so. And? I'm not trying to argue with you...I hope you understand that. I'm just posing that question: And? What he believed about the existence or non-existence of God has no relationship to the existence or non-existence of God. Agreed. Wouldn't relying on *his* judgment on this question as some kind of authority from the point of view of science be essentially the same thing as relying on the judgment of some supposed holy man in the past as being some kind of authority from the point of view of religion or spirituality? Ah, I see what you're getting at. I wouldn't rely on it unless it was some sort of actual implication that there was something unexplainable happening that really needed input from some sort of diety. Something like when the intelligent design crowd tried (and failed)to convince us that there were irreducable structures in nature that cannot have evolved without help. Or if there was proof that quantum theory actually *needed* god or consciousness or natural law to operate. So far nothing has implied that god is needed but obviously that just leaves the question open, can't prove a negative and all that. And unless they have a particular angle to push, like Hagelin or Deutsch, physicists just say they don't know but the maths works so let's just get on with it. In a nutshell, I wouldn't consider Einstiens view to be the same as a holy man whatever he claimed to have seen or to have spoken to, provided it was arrived at as an unavoidable conclusion to explain observations. I'm also just interested in how people like Alb think about god simply because they see the world so differently from me, but then so do the enlightened I've no doubt. Bottom line was that Albert Einstein was just a guy. Buddha was just a guy. Shankara was just a guy. Put everything they believed about the existence or non-existence of God into a hat, shake it, and you still have what three guys thought about the existence or non-existence of God. As it turns out, one of these guys seemed to have believed in a God, one definitely did not, and the third walked the line and refused to commit one way or another. But even if all three had agreed, what affect would that have on the world? Why would what they believed have any more credence than what anyone else believes? You bring up quantum physics. Ok, give each of these three guys an electron microscope and have them describe for you the position of a single electron around the nucleus of an atom. According to quantum physics, each of them would give you a different answer. And each of them would be *right*, because for them the electron really IS where they perceive it to be. It is ALSO in no position at all, and exists only as a set of probabil- ities and potentials. Isn't it possible that the issue of the existence or non-existence of God is a similar conundrum? As far as I can tell, NONE of these three guys was an authority on anything but their own perceptions of the universe and what sense they'd managed to assign to those percep- tions. None of them knew the truth because the truth is as elusive as that electron; it can't be pinned down, and it exists only moment- arily, when perceived by a sentient being. And it is a *different* truth for every
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
Here's a cool addition to this thread: THE NEURAL BUDDHISTS By David Brooks New York Times May 13, 2008 http://www.nytimes. com/2008/ 05/13/opinion/ 13brooks. html? --- Hugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance? No, I'm just commenting on the recently discovered remarks made late in his life. Unless it was written after the recent quote, I'll assume his later remarks in this letter supercede the one above. Can I ask a simple question? What the FUCK does it matter whether one intellectual guy whose theoretical work in physics had lamentably practical applications believed in God or not? Does what he believed affect any of you one way or another? Not actually *affected* but very interested because Einstein had a very deep insight into the nature of things, though not as much as the quantum physicists of his day, and consequently if he thought there was a god hiding anywhere he would have had a seriously good practical reason for thinking so. And? I'm not trying to argue with you...I hope you understand that. I'm just posing that question: And? What he believed about the existence or non-existence of God has no relationship to the existence or non-existence of God. Agreed. Wouldn't relying on *his* judgment on this question as some kind of authority from the point of view of science be essentially the same thing as relying on the judgment of some supposed holy man in the past as being some kind of authority from the point of view of religion or spirituality? Ah, I see what you're getting at. I wouldn't rely on it unless it was some sort of actual implication that there was something unexplainable happening that really needed input from some sort of diety. Something like when the intelligent design crowd tried (and failed)to convince us that there were irreducable structures in nature that cannot have evolved without help. Or if there was proof that quantum theory actually *needed* god or consciousness or natural law to operate. So far nothing has implied that god is needed but obviously that just leaves the question open, can't prove a negative and all that. And unless they have a particular angle to push, like Hagelin or Deutsch, physicists just say they don't know but the maths works so let's just get on with it. In a nutshell, I wouldn't consider Einstiens view to be the same as a holy man whatever he claimed to have seen or to have spoken to, provided it was arrived at as an unavoidable conclusion to explain observations. I'm also just interested in how people like Alb think about god simply because they see the world so differently from me, but then so do the enlightened I've no doubt. Bottom line was that Albert Einstein was just a guy. Buddha was just a guy. Shankara was just a guy. Put everything they believed about the existence or non-existence of God into a hat, shake it, and you still have what three guys thought about the existence or non-existence of God. As it turns out, one of these guys seemed to have believed in a God, one definitely did not, and the third walked the line and refused to commit one way or another. But even if all three had agreed, what affect would that have on the world? Why would what they believed have any more credence than what anyone else believes? You bring up quantum physics. Ok, give each of these three guys an electron microscope and have them describe for you the position of a single electron around the nucleus of an atom. According to quantum physics, each of them would give you a different answer. And each of them would be *right*, because for them the electron really IS where they perceive it to be. It is ALSO in no position at all, and exists only as a set of probabil- ities and potentials. Isn't it possible that the issue of the existence or non-existence of God is a similar conundrum? As far as I can tell, NONE of these three guys was
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
On May 13, 2008, at 3:38 PM, tertonzeno wrote: Sounds suspiciously like something a Buddhist Magazine would make up on their own; but so far I have been unable to confirm the authenticity of the quote, as to source. It sure does. Let us know if you find the source!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
Today, Israel remains the region's only democracy, replete with a resoundingly free press and an independent judiciary. ...in all my travels in my life I never saw more appartheid, dehumanising fascist policies, and oppression than there was there (except on the giant Navajo reservation in Arizona.) You need to look at a dictionary - the Arabs and the Jews are not a race. Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person. Crime of apartheid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid
[FairfieldLife] Re: Einstein letter: Belief in God childish
This is a sight for sore eyes, can't even paste in a readabe url. What a waste of time. Yahoo! Groups sucks. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a cool addition to this thread: THE NEURAL BUDDHISTS By David Brooks New York Times May 13, 2008 http://www.nytimes. com/2008/ 05/13/opinion/ 13brooks. html? --- Hugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On May 13, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Richard M wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: Albert Einstein described belief in God as childish superstition Einstein also wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. That's not you, Vaj, by any chance? No, I'm just commenting on the recently discovered remarks made late in his life. Unless it was written after the recent quote, I'll assume his later remarks in this letter supercede the one above. Can I ask a simple question? What the FUCK does it matter whether one intellectual guy whose theoretical work in physics had lamentably practical applications believed in God or not? Does what he believed affect any of you one way or another? Not actually *affected* but very interested because Einstein had a very deep insight into the nature of things, though not as much as the quantum physicists of his day, and consequently if he thought there was a god hiding anywhere he would have had a seriously good practical reason for thinking so. And? I'm not trying to argue with you...I hope you understand that. I'm just posing that question: And? What he believed about the existence or non-existence of God has no relationship to the existence or non-existence of God. Agreed. Wouldn't relying on *his* judgment on this question as some kind of authority from the point of view of science be essentially the same thing as relying on the judgment of some supposed holy man in the past as being some kind of authority from the point of view of religion or spirituality? Ah, I see what you're getting at. I wouldn't rely on it unless it was some sort of actual implication that there was something unexplainable happening that really needed input from some sort of diety. Something like when the intelligent design crowd tried (and failed)to convince us that there were irreducable structures in nature that cannot have evolved without help. Or if there was proof that quantum theory actually *needed* god or consciousness or natural law to operate. So far nothing has implied that god is needed but obviously that just leaves the question open, can't prove a negative and all that. And unless they have a particular angle to push, like Hagelin or Deutsch, physicists just say they don't know but the maths works so let's just get on with it. In a nutshell, I wouldn't consider Einstiens view to be the same as a holy man whatever he claimed to have seen or to have spoken to, provided it was arrived at as an unavoidable conclusion to explain observations. I'm also just interested in how people like Alb think about god simply because they see the world so differently from me, but then so do the enlightened I've no doubt. Bottom line was that Albert Einstein was just a guy. Buddha was just a guy. Shankara was just a guy. Put everything they believed about the existence or non-existence of God into a hat, shake it, and you still have what three guys thought about the existence or non-existence of God. As it turns out, one of these guys seemed to have believed in a God, one definitely did not, and the third walked the line and refused to commit one way or another. But even if all three had agreed, what affect would that have on the world? Why would what they believed have any more credence than what anyone else believes? You bring up quantum physics. Ok, give each of these three guys an electron microscope and have them describe for you the position of a single electron around the nucleus of an atom. According to quantum physics, each of them would give you a different answer. And each of them would
