[FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment, Alzhiemers and Stoned Memory Loss -- was Byron Katie's
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice post Marek. I will try to respond more fully later. A couple of quick points. Just as MMY's starting a new project everyday -- irrespective of all of the unfinished 500-1000 projects of the prior 500-1000 days, may be that he simply forgot what he started yesterday. Maharishi started new projects almost daily to rise to the occasion of new aspects of knowledge presented to Him. In doing so He provided opportunities for tremendous growth to those who responded to these challenges from Mother Nature. The results are manifesting in enlightened persons here, there and everywhere. It is said that Lord Buddha brought 500 people to Enlightenment. I think we will do better. - Maharishi, Buddha Yayanti, Boatride on the River Rhine, Germany, May 1982
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment, Alzhiemers and Stoned Memory Loss -- was Byron Katie's
It seems to me that the me of me is liberated by slow degrees as a result of regular meditation. And Plato called meditation practicing death. --- On Tue, 10/6/08, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment, Alzhiemers and Stoned Memory Loss -- was Byron Katie's To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 10 June, 2008, 11:11 PM New, thanks for writing this (below). My former mother-in-law has been progressing in her Altzheimer's dementia for several years now and from what I've observed over that time at infrequent intervals also strikes me as not a bad fade out from the world. She isn't uncomfortable except when confronted with radically unfamiliar situations and has a pleasant bemusement with whatever's going on. The recent posts from Jim and Ruth and Curtis within this thread have been particularly interesting for me. I'd appreciate your take on the disassociative state that has been discussed; I can't quite figure out what that is exactly or what that terms means to people. For some time now, but I couldn't say when it started because it's obviously always been, consciousness, or presence is always present. It's not what I understood witnessing to be but it fits the description mostly. It's not like lucid dreaming or anything but there's never a time when I'm not. Similarly, it's not characterized by unboundedness in the sense of vastness or infinity that Jim and Byron Katie speak of, but at the same time there's no sense that it's necessarily specifically locate-able or merely confined to the body. It's relationship to the body is that the body draws attention to it, like pinching a piece of fabric into a little bump or hummock -- now it stands out -- it's noticed, but it's just a bump in the fabric, just a bump on the horizon of attention. At the same time, it's impossible not to know it and impossible that it hasn't always been or that I haven't always been aware of it. I'm not sure if that presence or attention, that seems to be both at the base of me and at the same time not really identified with me is the disassociative state that both Ruth and Curtis relate that they find unpleasant and/or undesirable and is the same state that both Jim and Byron Katie describe in such magnificent terms as overwhelming infinite bliss. It does seem like the me of me, and if I let attention rest on it then it's very pleasant, and not unlike ganj. It has the sense of being before me and it has the sense of not being extinguishable, though I've got no way to test that feeling (at least not right now). Angela said that it feels to her that it could be permanent and survive death, and that feels right to me, too. It even feels right to call it death because it seems to be what is there that will experience the death of the body and maybe that's what this Altzheimer's stuff reminded me of. What is there when everything else is gone? I don't want to appeal to, or rely on, any enlightented authority for explanation because (I feel) it's important to figure this out from a personal perspective rather than from some received, traditional wisdom. It still is important to me to be a good man in the world and I feel that I've been more successful in that endeavor the last several years and directly as a consequence of this internal perspective. There are many people here on this forum whom I look to for insight and perspective, you being one. I'd appreciate any comment you would care to make regarding this. And that goes, of course, for anyone else who may read this and have some comments. Thanks, Marek ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sandiego108 sandiego108@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: So, for example, if I go outside and it is cold, my body gets cold and I come inside and say, its cold outside. Then my body warms up because it is warmer inside and then I don't know any longer whether it is cold outside. Why must I hold onto the belief that it is cold outside, when in fact I don't really know one way of the other? Your description reminds me of Tom Hank's character on SNL: Jingle: Mr. Short-Term Memory. He shouldn't have stood under that pear tree. Now there's just no remedy. He'll frustrate you so But he'll never know. Because he's Mr. Short-Term Memory. funny-- except the guy sounds retarded- no skill in action. Otherwise, spot on. Interesting. I think MMY's starting a new project everyday -- irrespective of all of the unfinished 500-1000 projects
[FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment, Alzhiemers and Stoned Memory Loss -- was Byron Katie's
Nice post Marek. I will try to respond more fully later. A couple of quick points. Just as MMY's starting a new project everyday -- irrespective of all of the unfinished 500-1000 projects of the prior 500-1000 days, may be that he simply forgot what he started yesterday. Or it was faint. Too faint to be bothered with. Particularly when the current idea, right now, is so bright and fabulous --- I wonder if Rick's eport of so many people in FF popping like popcorn into full blown enlightenment -- I wonder if some (not all) may simply getting old and heading down the dementia path? If I understood Jim's response to Mr ST Memory Loss -- and Tom gave a more detailed account a couple of years ago as to what its like to get out of bed -- a characteristic of one (of many) reported / perceived / labeled enlightenment experiences is a graceful skill and adeptness of adjusting to each new moment -- with little memory / attachment to, conditioning of, recent (or long past) events. The adeptness part makes E experiences somewhat different from dementia experiences (OK Sal -- I set this on up for you, knock it out of the park :)) -- some may mistake the two -- in early (and even quite advanced) stages. Conversation in a small midwestern town. A I can't remember what just happened. B Yes, totally! you are living in the present! A No really, I forgot what I just did B Thats IT dude! Stick through water -- through air A No you don't understand, I have lost all orientation B YES! Thats IT.its like infinite teflon -- no point to stick to A But I even forgot who i am, my name, my job B Totally bro, NO I. Vanished. Totally Gone. Bunrt up. Its GREAT isn't it! A Um I guess. This is really enlightenment? BTotally, don't resist it. Just give into it. AUm OK C I can't remember what just happened. A Yes, totally! you are living in the present! ... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: New, thanks for writing this (below). My former mother-in-law has been progressing in her Altzheimer's dementia for several years now and from what I've observed over that time at infrequent intervals also strikes me as not a bad fade out from the world. She isn't uncomfortable except when confronted with radically unfamiliar situations and has a pleasant bemusement with whatever's going on. The recent posts from Jim and Ruth and Curtis within this thread have been particularly interesting for me. I'd appreciate your take on the disassociative state that has been discussed; I can't quite figure out what that is exactly or what that terms means to people. For some time now, but I couldn't say when it started because it's obviously always been, consciousness, or presence is always present. It's not what I understood witnessing to be but it fits the description mostly. It's not like lucid dreaming or anything but there's never a time when I'm not. Similarly, it's not characterized by unboundedness in the sense of vastness or infinity that Jim and Byron Katie speak of, but at the same time there's no sense that it's necessarily specifically locate-able or merely confined to the body. It's relationship to the body is that the body draws attention to it, like pinching a piece of fabric into a little bump or hummock -- now it stands out -- it's noticed, but it's just a bump in the fabric, just a bump on the horizon of attention. At the same time, it's impossible not to know it and impossible that it hasn't always been or that I haven't always been aware of it. I'm not sure if that presence or attention, that seems to be both at the base of me and at the same time not really identified with me is the disassociative state that both Ruth and Curtis relate that they find unpleasant and/or undesirable and is the same state that both Jim and Byron Katie describe in such magnificent terms as overwhelming infinite bliss. It does seem like the me of me, and if I let attention rest on it then it's very pleasant, and not unlike ganj. It has the sense of being before me and it has the sense of not being extinguishable, though I've got no way to test that feeling (at least not right now). Angela said that it feels to her that it could be permanent and survive death, and that feels right to me, too. It even feels right to call it death because it seems to be what is there that will experience the death of the body and maybe that's what this Altzheimer's stuff reminded me of. What is there when everything else is gone? I don't want to appeal to, or rely on, any enlightented authority for explanation because (I feel) it's important to figure this out from a personal perspective rather than from some received, traditional wisdom. It still is important to me to be a good man in the world and I feel that I've been more successful in that endeavor the last several years and directly as a consequence of this
[FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment, Alzhiemers and Stoned Memory Loss -- was Byron Katie's
New, thanks for writing this (below). My former mother-in-law has been progressing in her Altzheimer's dementia for several years now and from what I've observed over that time at infrequent intervals also strikes me as not a bad fade out from the world. She isn't uncomfortable except when confronted with radically unfamiliar situations and has a pleasant bemusement with whatever's going on. The recent posts from Jim and Ruth and Curtis within this thread have been particularly interesting for me. I'd appreciate your take on the disassociative state that has been discussed; I can't quite figure out what that is exactly or what that terms means to people. For some time now, but I couldn't say when it started because it's obviously always been, consciousness, or presence is always present. It's not what I understood witnessing to be but it fits the description mostly. It's not like lucid dreaming or anything but there's never a time when I'm not. Similarly, it's not characterized by unboundedness in the sense of vastness or infinity that Jim and Byron Katie speak of, but at the same time there's no sense that it's necessarily specifically locate-able or merely confined to the body. It's relationship to the body is that the body draws attention to it, like pinching a piece of fabric into a little bump or hummock -- now it stands out -- it's noticed, but it's just a bump in the fabric, just a bump on the horizon of attention. At the same time, it's impossible not to know it and impossible that it hasn't always been or that I haven't always been aware of it. I'm not sure if that presence or attention, that seems to be both at the base of me and at the same time not really identified with me is the disassociative state that both Ruth and Curtis relate that they find unpleasant and/or undesirable and is the same state that both Jim and Byron Katie describe in such magnificent terms as overwhelming infinite bliss. It does seem like the me of me, and if I let attention rest on it then it's very pleasant, and not unlike ganj. It has the sense of being before me and it has the sense of not being extinguishable, though I've got no way to test that feeling (at least not right now). Angela said that it feels to her that it could be permanent and survive death, and that feels right to me, too. It even feels right to call it death because it seems to be what is there that will experience the death of the body and maybe that's what this Altzheimer's stuff reminded me of. What is there when everything else is gone? I don't want to appeal to, or rely on, any enlightented authority for explanation because (I feel) it's important to figure this out from a personal perspective rather than from some received, traditional wisdom. It still is important to me to be a good man in the world and I feel that I've been more successful in that endeavor the last several years and directly as a consequence of this internal perspective. There are many people here on this forum whom I look to for insight and perspective, you being one. I'd appreciate any comment you would care to make regarding this. And that goes, of course, for anyone else who may read this and have some comments. Thanks, Marek ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sandiego108 sandiego108@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: So, for example, if I go outside and it is cold, my body gets cold and I come inside and say, its cold outside. Then my body warms up because it is warmer inside and then I don't know any longer whether it is cold outside. Why must I hold onto the belief that it is cold outside, when in fact I don't really know one way of the other? Your description reminds me of Tom Hank's character on SNL: Jingle: Mr. Short-Term Memory. He shouldn't have stood under that pear tree. Now there's just no remedy. He'll frustrate you so But he'll never know. Because he's Mr. Short-Term Memory. funny-- except the guy sounds retarded- no skill in action. Otherwise, spot on. Interesting. I think MMY's starting a new project everyday -- irrespective of all of the unfinished 500-1000 projects of the prior 500-1000 days, may be that he simply forgot what he started yesterday. Or it was faint. Too faint to be bothered with. Particularly when the current idea, right now, is so bright and fabulous. The classic short memory loss is Alzheimers. I watched my mom's progression -- from typical senior moments of lapsed ST memory -- to the end state of nothingness. All the while maintaining long term memories (except the last few months when the whole brain function apparently collapsed.) Having seen it up close, I don't fully buy into Alzhiemers being as horrible
[FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment, Alzhiemers and Stoned Memory Loss -- was Byron Katie's
---Right - the neo-Advaitic Awakening; although non-dual, doesn't match various descriptions of Enlightenment. For one thing, the Awakened people almost never describe their own experiences through the progression of CC, GC, and UC. They then go on to say they are unattached to any manifestations of subtle realities and have thus fully transcended them. This doesn't mesh with the idea of Kundalini markers that MMY mentions; as well as the various subtlties of perception that one must pass through on the level of GC. The fact that one is unnattached to such signs means little. Neither are ignorant people attached to the signs. Imagine a bobsled race to Nome, Alaska; at which various referees are stationed along the raceway to record the passing of the competitors. If a competitor fails to be recorded at a station, he's out. Same way with the Awakened people. They can spout off buzz words like Awakening, Presence, etc; but that's all they can talk about since most are probably well short of the big E. In a nutshell, compare SBS with (so and so). Big difference! On Alzheimers, there's a new product out which might help (I don't market supplements). Check it out at http://www.prevagen.com Here's a testimonial: Male, in his 80's: I bought this product for my father, 81 years old, on the recommendation of a friend who is a doctor. He called me last week to tell me he finished the crossword puzzle in the newspaper for the first time in years. He was thrilled! He's been able to come pretty close to finishing the crossword every day now for the past week or so.* In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: New, thanks for writing this (below). My former mother-in-law has been progressing in her Altzheimer's dementia for several years now and from what I've observed over that time at infrequent intervals also strikes me as not a bad fade out from the world. She isn't uncomfortable except when confronted with radically unfamiliar situations and has a pleasant bemusement with whatever's going on. The recent posts from Jim and Ruth and Curtis within this thread have been particularly interesting for me. I'd appreciate your take on the disassociative state that has been discussed; I can't quite figure out what that is exactly or what that terms means to people. For some time now, but I couldn't say when it started because it's obviously always been, consciousness, or presence is always present. It's not what I understood witnessing to be but it fits the description mostly. It's not like lucid dreaming or anything but there's never a time when I'm not. Similarly, it's not characterized by unboundedness in the sense of vastness or infinity that Jim and Byron Katie speak of, but at the same time there's no sense that it's necessarily specifically locate-able or merely confined to the body. It's relationship to the body is that the body draws attention to it, like pinching a piece of fabric into a little bump or hummock -- now it stands out -- it's noticed, but it's just a bump in the fabric, just a bump on the horizon of attention. At the same time, it's impossible not to know it and impossible that it hasn't always been or that I haven't always been aware of it. I'm not sure if that presence or attention, that seems to be both at the base of me and at the same time not really identified with me is the disassociative state that both Ruth and Curtis relate that they find unpleasant and/or undesirable and is the same state that both Jim and Byron Katie describe in such magnificent terms as overwhelming infinite bliss. It does seem like the me of me, and if I let attention rest on it then it's very pleasant, and not unlike ganj. It has the sense of being before me and it has the sense of not being extinguishable, though I've got no way to test that feeling (at least not right now). Angela said that it feels to her that it could be permanent and survive death, and that feels right to me, too. It even feels right to call it death because it seems to be what is there that will experience the death of the body and maybe that's what this Altzheimer's stuff reminded me of. What is there when everything else is gone? I don't want to appeal to, or rely on, any enlightented authority for explanation because (I feel) it's important to figure this out from a personal perspective rather than from some received, traditional wisdom. It still is important to me to be a good man in the world and I feel that I've been more successful in that endeavor the last several years and directly as a consequence of this internal perspective. There are many people here on this forum whom I look to for insight and perspective, you being one. I'd appreciate any comment you would care to make regarding this. And that goes, of course, for anyone else
