[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:

> > And in this Washington Post  published Sunday (which I also 
> > meant to post in this topic) they said that the vaccine will 
> > be voluntary:
> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/22/AR2009082202337_pf.html
> 
> IMO that's a good thing.

Just for the record, *nobody* here suggested that people
should be forced to get vaccinated. (I said I thought people
who worked in hospitals should be required to be vaccinated,
but only as a condition of continued employment in the
hospital.)

Oh, goody, more appalling ignorance from Barry:

 I would never take it.
> There is less possibility that this vaccine will 
> not "pass" its initial tests and be released than 
> there is that a TMO-sponsored "scientific study" 
> will report negatives. Having now "pre-marketed"
> it by announcing before it's been tested, the 
> company has established a perceived need in the
> public for the vaccine. The public is clamoring
> for the vaccine. Therefore it will be released.

Actually, of course, it was "announced" months ago--
not by the vaccine makers but by the CDC and WHO
and HHS and so on. Once it became clear a pandemic
was likely, the gummint and the various health
agencies requested that drug companies begin work
on a vaccine so it would be ready for a second wave
in the fall.

The drug makers themselves aren't marketing to the
public, they're taking instructions from the health
authorities.

And as Bhairitu pointed out, it's estimated that 50
percent of the U.S. population does *not* want the
vaccine, so it's hardly the case that the "public is
clamoring" for it.

> But that was the story for the hastily-invented
> vaccines given to American troops headed to Iraq
> and Afghanistan, too. The need is NOW...fuck the
> testing, fuck the research...just get the drug
> out the door and into receiving arms. And that
> has turned out very badly indeed for a lot of
> servicemen and contractors who got more shot 
> into their arms than they bargained for.

Very different types of vaccine involved. We've
been doing flu vaccines for quite a few years now,
with only minor variations from year to year, and
they've proved to be generally quite safe; whereas
the vaccines given to the troops were, as Barry
says, "hastily invented."

> I'm always suspicious when a new "We've gotta 
> have it" drug is rushed to market *at the same
> time* a concerted scare campaign pushing the
> need for the drug is being conducted in the
> media.

Again, the folks "pushing the need for the drug"
are the gummint and the various health agencies.
The media's only reporting what they're told to
report.

If you actually read some of the more detailed
reporting on what's going on with the government 
and the health agencies, you'd see that it's
*they* that are scared. The public is actually
rather blase at this point.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> TurquoiseB wrote:
> >
> > There is a big debate in Spain over this vaccine.
> > There is the guvmint policy, and then there are 
> > the care providers, who do not all agree with it.
> > So far, the latter have been vocal enough that it
> > looks like the vaccine will never be forced on 
> > anyone, only made available. There are quite a few
> > Spanish doctors who are more than familiar with
> > the problems related to rushing a vaccine into 
> > use before it is fully tested from their work with
> > Medicins Sans Frontieres, and who are reluctant to
> > allow the Spanish population to be used as guinea
> > pigs the way American troops headed to Iraq and
> > Afghanistan were used as guinea pigs for those 
> > rushed-to-market and untested vaccines.
> 
> And in this Washington Post  published Sunday (which I also 
> meant to post in this topic) they said that the vaccine will 
> be voluntary:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/22/AR2009082202337_pf.html

IMO that's a good thing. I would never take it.
There is less possibility that this vaccine will 
not "pass" its initial tests and be released than 
there is that a TMO-sponsored "scientific study" 
will report negatives. Having now "pre-marketed"
it by announcing before it's been tested, the 
company has established a perceived need in the
public for the vaccine. The public is clamoring
for the vaccine. Therefore it will be released.

But that was the story for the hastily-invented
vaccines given to American troops headed to Iraq
and Afghanistan, too. The need is NOW...fuck the
testing, fuck the research...just get the drug
out the door and into receiving arms. And that
has turned out very badly indeed for a lot of
servicemen and contractors who got more shot 
into their arms than they bargained for.

I'm always suspicious when a new "We've gotta 
have it" drug is rushed to market *at the same
time* a concerted scare campaign pushing the
need for the drug is being conducted in the
media. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:

> > What I find interesting on this forum is that the
> > same people who tried to find something wrong with
> > me when I went out and bought one dose of a tested
> > and effective drug called Relenza and called me a 
> > conspiracy theorist for doing so at the time *now* 
> > are the ones calling anyone who doesn't line up for 
> > their guvmint-sponsored flu shot a Republican.

This is just so rich. Even if somebody *had* called
him a conspiracy theorist for buying Relenza, that
would be *perfectly consistent* with their insisting
that everyone should get a flu shot. In both cases,
they'd be scoffing at distrust of the government.

And he's utterly oblivious to the fact that he's
making no sense at all, even in the context of his
fantasies on their own terms.

I'm beginning to worry that all that "silence" he
claims to have experienced in the Pyrenees has
addled his brains even worse than they were
already. He seems to have completely lost whatever
tenuous hold on reality he once had.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
>
> Read up on flu viruses and vaccines; also read up on
> what's known as "herd immunity.">>

Ok, maybe you are right.

They should just stop eating meat. Problem solved. No swine flu, no bird
flu which starts on farms.

OffWorld


>
> Vaccines may have some side effects (rare in the
> case of flu vaccines), but they do confer some
> protection against the flu virus by stimulating
> antibody production, so if there is a "fissure"
> that the virus gets into, the body is better able
> to fight it off.
>
> It would be nice if we could manage to get
> everybody's "fissures" closed, but that isn't
> realistic.
>
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@
wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> >  > wrote:
> > >
> > > The vaccine is, of course, being tested in humans. The
> > > first tests on adults have raised no red flags, so
> > > testing has now begun in children.
> > >
> > > The thing to remember about vaccinations is that they
> > > not only protect those who have been vaccinated, they
> > > also protect those who have *not* been vaccinated>>
> >
> > No they don't. Viruses can only invade where there is a weakness.
> > A virus is like a crystal that grows in the fissures of a rock.
> > If there are no fissures (weaknesses) in the rock, then the crystal
will
> > not grow. The crystal cannot cause the fissure, and it is not a
> > malicious entity. It merely fills a void that is already there.
> >
> > Close the void to stop the virus. Vaccines generally create
weaknesses
> > as is evidenced in ALL the research on 'side-effects' of vaccines.
> >
> > All instances where a virus was seen to wane in a population was
> > atributable to the natural cycle of spread and dissolution of the
viral
> > potency. Nothing to do with vaccines.
> >
> > OffWorld
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , Ghanesh PV  wrote:
>
> They got to vaccinate the pigs in farms as they spread the virus. Or
may be
> they want to make many gunnie pig :)

They should just stop eating meat. Problem solved. No swine flu, no bird
flu which starts on farms.

(your picture didn't show)

OffWorld



>
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 1:39 PM, off_world_beings
> wrote
wrote> :
>
> >
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , "authfriend"  wrote:
> > >
> > > The vaccine is, of course, being tested in humans. The
> > > first tests on adults have raised no red flags, so
> > > testing has now begun in children.
> > >
> > > The thing to remember about vaccinations is that they
> > > not only protect those who have been vaccinated, they
> > > also protect those who have *not* been vaccinated>>
> >
> > *No they don't. Viruses can only invade where there is a weakness.
> > A virus is like a crystal that grows in the fissures of a rock.
> > If there are no fissures (weaknesses) in the rock, then the crystal
will
> > not grow. The crystal cannot cause the fissure, and it is not a
malicious
> > entity. It merely fills a void that is already there.*
> >
> > *Close the void to stop the virus. Vaccines generally create
weaknesses as
> > is evidenced in ALL the research on 'side-effects' of vaccines.*
> >
> > *All instances where a virus was seen to wane in a population was
> > atributable to the natural cycle of spread and dissolution of the
viral
> > potency. Nothing to do with  vaccines.*
> >
> > *OffWorld*
> >
> >
> > >
> > > So it may seem all wonderfully macho to refuse to get
> > > vaccinated, but if you don't, you're contributing to
> > > the likelihood of other people getting sick.
> > >
> > > And BTW, it's *already* a pandemic.
> > >
> > > As far as mercury (thimerosal) is concerned, it will
> > > be used as a preservative in multidose vials of the
> > > vaccine, but single-dose vials are also being produced,
> > > and these will be what are used for children (although
> > > there's zero evidence that thimerosal causes autism).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , Bhairitu  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Massachusetts is trying to pass a bill that may result in a
$1000 a day
> >
> > > > fine if you refuse to get the Swine Flu vaccination.  Now we
already
> > had
> > > > a scare of Swine Flu back in the 1970s and some folks came down
with
> > > > terrible side effects including paralysis.  Most folks here are
into
> > > > natural medicine and probably don't want the vaccine.  I've
never had a
> >
> > > > flu shot and also can't remember the last time I've got the flu.
Like
> > > > most yogis here I notice immediately when a bug is trying to
invade and
> >
> > > > do the usual things to boot it out of my system.  We don't know
what is
> >
> > > > in these vaccines but they may be using things like mercury. 
The
> > > > vaccine is also untested on humans.  Do you really want this
junk in
> > > > your body?
> > > >
> > > > Hopefully this pandemic is nothing but nonsense and will never
occur
> > nor
> > > > the mass vaccinations.  But it is estimated that at least half
of the
> > US
> > > > will refuse the vaccination.
> > > >
> > > > News report on Massachusetts bill:
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_oD55WvDmM

> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

TurquoiseB wrote:

  

>
> There is a big debate in Spain over this vaccine.
> There is the guvmint policy, and then there are 
> the care providers, who do not all agree with it.
> So far, the latter have been vocal enough that it
> looks like the vaccine will never be forced on 
> anyone, only made available. There are quite a few
> Spanish doctors who are more than familiar with
> the problems related to rushing a vaccine into 
> use before it is fully tested from their work with
> Medicins Sans Frontieres, and who are reluctant to
> allow the Spanish population to be used as guinea
> pigs the way American troops headed to Iraq and
> Afghanistan were used as guinea pigs for those 
> rushed-to-market and untested vaccines.
>   

And in this Washington Post  published Sunday (which I also meant to 
post in this topic) they said that the vaccine will be voluntary:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/22/AR2009082202337_pf.html

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:

> > > Me, I can stay out of this silly egodebate because 
> > > Spain is quite sensibly waiting for the vaccine to
> > > prove itself safe before even looking into it. The
> > > exact quote was, "If the Americans want to act as
> > > guinea pigs for yet another pharmaceutical company,
> > > so be it. We will analyze the real public data to
> > > determine the vaccine's safety and effectiveness, 
> > > not the data coming from the manufacturer."

> There is a big debate in Spain over this vaccine.
> There is the guvmint policy, and then there are 
> the care providers, who do not all agree with it.

Nice of Barry to confirm that he was lying in his
earlier post.

> So far, the latter have been vocal enough that it
> looks like the vaccine will never be forced on 
> anyone, only made available.

You mean the Spanish gummint has actually been
*considering* forcing it on people??

Can you just *imagine* what would happen in the
U.S. if that were even suggested?


> What I find interesting on this forum is that the
> same people who tried to find something wrong with
> me when I went out and bought one dose of a tested
> and effective drug called Relenza and called me a 
> conspiracy theorist for doing so at the time *now* 
> are the ones calling anyone who doesn't line up for 
> their guvmint-sponsored flu shot a Republican.

This is quite amazing. *NOBODY* called Barry a
conspiracy theorist for buying Relenza. NOBODY.

Is he lying for the sake of taking a swipe at
Raunchy and me?

Or does he genuinely imagine that's what actually
happened?

BTW, the only person who suggested Barry was a
conspiracy theorist was...wait for it!...Barry
his ownself:

"One of the reasons I take precautions like
'stocking up' like this is that the last time
there was a potential pandemic scare in the
U.S., what happened was the government was
reputed to have 'cornered the market' on
the drug that could treat it, so that they
could reserve it for the armed forces and
government personnel in case the worst
happened.

"Well, of course the worst did *not* happen.
But anyone who thinks that would not happen
again in a real pandemic is incredibly naive.
When it comes to the necessities of life in
a crisis, we and people like us get the
'hind tit.'"

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:

> The thing is that people need to build up their immune
> systems.  Those of us who eat healthy foods and get
> exercise have strong immune systems.   A strong immune
> system will stomp out a virus.  If you know a little
> about alternate health care then you can aid in stomping
> it out. And a strong immune system can't spread the flu
> because it's killed the virus already.

Actually this is not the case with H1N1. What we've seen
with it is what we saw in 1918: the people who are most
likely to get it are young, healthy people with strong
immune systems.

The people who were most likely to *die* in 1918 were
young, healthy people with strong immune systems. With
that strain of the flu, the immune system tended to
*overreact* with something called a "cytokine storm."
It was actually the immune response that killed people.

So far that doesn't appear to be happening with H1N1;
keep your fingers crossed that it doesn't mutate into
something more like the 1918 flu when it hits us this
fall.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> TurquoiseB wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >   
> >> I'm only relating my own experience.  Everyone else can decide for 
> >> themselves.
> >> 
> >
> > I think that's the issue that is really in contention.
> > You're arguing with people who want...nay, need...
> > everyone to do and think as she says. Anything less
> > is treated as stupidity and disloyalty to their holy
> > "rightness."  :-)
> >
> > Me, I can stay out of this silly egodebate because 
> > Spain is quite sensibly waiting for the vaccine to
> > prove itself safe before even looking into it. The
> > exact quote was, "If the Americans want to act as
> > guinea pigs for yet another pharmaceutical company,
> > so be it. We will analyze the real public data to
> > determine the vaccine's safety and effectiveness, 
> > not the data coming from the manufacturer."
> >
> > Isn't it fascinating that the very people who have
> > been casting Big Phrama as the Bad Guys in the health
> > care debate are lining up to get shot up with their
> > latest drug, and calling those who don't names?
> >
> > Reading FFL in "Message View" only is instructive. 
> > It contains only the first sentence or so of each 
> > post, which is more than enough to determine that my
> > decision never to click on posts from certain people
> > ever again was a wise one, and my suspicion that none
> > of these people would ever say anything worth reading
> > was *mainly* accurate. However, not even *I* could 
> > have foreseen "Get your flu shot or you are unAmerican." 
> > That's a new level of crazy altogether.
> 
> Exactly.  We don't even know if the vaccine is going to work.
> Plus people who are already immune even if it is a natural 
> immunity can't spread it.  

There is a big debate in Spain over this vaccine.
There is the guvmint policy, and then there are 
the care providers, who do not all agree with it.
So far, the latter have been vocal enough that it
looks like the vaccine will never be forced on 
anyone, only made available. There are quite a few
Spanish doctors who are more than familiar with
the problems related to rushing a vaccine into 
use before it is fully tested from their work with
Medicins Sans Frontieres, and who are reluctant to
allow the Spanish population to be used as guinea
pigs the way American troops headed to Iraq and
Afghanistan were used as guinea pigs for those 
rushed-to-market and untested vaccines.

> Nothing like being called a Republican because you won't 
> get a flu shot. :-D

What I find interesting on this forum is that the
same people who tried to find something wrong with
me when I went out and bought one dose of a tested
and effective drug called Relenza and called me a 
conspiracy theorist for doing so at the time *now* 
are the ones calling anyone who doesn't line up for 
their guvmint-sponsored flu shot a Republican.

Real progressives.  :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> TurquoiseB wrote:

> > However, not even *I* could 
> > have foreseen "Get your flu shot or you are unAmerican." 
> > That's a new level of crazy altogether.
> 
> Exactly.  We don't even know if the vaccine is going to work.

Straw man. Nobody's saying you should get a shot before
we know whether it works. You couldn't if you wanted to,
in fact. But it's being tested now, so we should know
quite soon.

> Plus people who are already immune even if it is a
> natural immunity can't spread it.

Most likely *very* few people are "naturally immune,"
since the virus is brand-new.

> Nothing  like being called a Republican because you
> won't get a flu shot. :-D

B-b-b-but Barry says you were called "unAmerican"!
Could he have been ...*lying*??

(Free clue: Raunchy was joshing you.)

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

bob_brigante wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
>   
>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
>>>   
 I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot.
 There's a shortage, and I don't think I'm in a high
 risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.
 
>>> **
>>>
>>> Probably only the most at-risk people should get the flu
>>> vaccine, based on recent experiences with flu vaccination:
>>>   
>> Oy, Bob, this story is NOT about the flu vaccine.
>>
>> It's about Tamiflu and Relenza, antiviral medications
>> you take in pill or nasal spray form to *treat* the flu.
>> Nothing to do with the vaccine AT ALL.
>>
>> PLEASE don't confuse the issue!!!
>>
>> 
>
> 
>
> My speed reading, again. Aside from the question about the efficacy of 
> antivirals, vaccines are no cure-all when it comes to flu:
>
> Waste of Time?
>
> Yes and no... the flu vaccine will be more effective some years than others. 
> The CDC predicted that the vaccine developed for the winter of 2003/2004 
> wasn't going to be effective against most cases of the flu because the 
> strains covered by the vaccine weren't the same as the strains that were 
> common. Highly targeted vaccines work, but only against their targets! 
> There's no point in accepting the risks of a vaccine for a disease you can't 
> get. When the flu vaccine is on-target, it's more effective. Even then, the 
> vaccine isn't perfect because it uses inactivated virus. Is that bad? No. A 
> live vaccine is more effective, but much more risky.
>
> Bottom line: The flu vaccine varies in effectiveness from year-to-year. Even 
> in a best-case scenario, it won't always protect against the flu. The CDC 
> study didn't say that the vaccine didn't work; it says the vaccine didn't 
> protect people from getting sick. Even with imperfect effectiveness, the 
> vaccine is indicated for certain people. In my opinion, however, the vaccine 
> isn't for everyone and certainly shouldn't be required for otherwise healthy 
> people.
>  
> http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa011604a.htm

The thing is that people need to build up their immune systems.  Those 
of us who eat healthy foods and get exercise have strong immune 
systems.   A strong immune system will stomp out a virus.  If you know a 
little about alternate health care then you can aid in stomping it out.  
And a strong immune system can't spread the flu because it's killed the 
virus already.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[raunchydog]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> TurquoiseB wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >   
> >> I'm only relating my own experience.  Everyone else can decide for 
> >> themselves.
> >> 
> >
> > I think that's the issue that is really in contention.
> > You're arguing with people who want...nay, need...
> > everyone to do and think as she says. Anything less
> > is treated as stupidity and disloyalty to their holy
> > "rightness."  :-)
> >
> > Me, I can stay out of this silly egodebate because 
> > Spain is quite sensibly waiting for the vaccine to
> > prove itself safe before even looking into it. The
> > exact quote was, "If the Americans want to act as
> > guinea pigs for yet another pharmaceutical company,
> > so be it. We will analyze the real public data to
> > determine the vaccine's safety and effectiveness, 
> > not the data coming from the manufacturer."
> >
> > Isn't it fascinating that the very people who have
> > been casting Big Phrama as the Bad Guys in the health
> > care debate are lining up to get shot up with their
> > latest drug, and calling those who don't names?
> >
> > Reading FFL in "Message View" only is instructive. 
> > It contains only the first sentence or so of each 
> > post, which is more than enough to determine that my
> > decision never to click on posts from certain people
> > ever again was a wise one, and my suspicion that none
> > of these people would ever say anything worth reading
> > was *mainly* accurate. However, not even *I* could 
> > have foreseen "Get your flu shot or you are unAmerican." 
> > That's a new level of crazy altogether.
> 
> Exactly.  We don't even know if the vaccine is going to work.   Plus 
> people who are already immune even if it is a natural immunity can't 
> spread it.  Nothing  like being called a Republican because you won't 
> get a flu shot. :-D
>

Republicans will probably get flu shots.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

TurquoiseB wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>   
>> I'm only relating my own experience.  Everyone else can decide for 
>> themselves.
>> 
>
> I think that's the issue that is really in contention.
> You're arguing with people who want...nay, need...
> everyone to do and think as she says. Anything less
> is treated as stupidity and disloyalty to their holy
> "rightness."  :-)
>
> Me, I can stay out of this silly egodebate because 
> Spain is quite sensibly waiting for the vaccine to
> prove itself safe before even looking into it. The
> exact quote was, "If the Americans want to act as
> guinea pigs for yet another pharmaceutical company,
> so be it. We will analyze the real public data to
> determine the vaccine's safety and effectiveness, 
> not the data coming from the manufacturer."
>
> Isn't it fascinating that the very people who have
> been casting Big Phrama as the Bad Guys in the health
> care debate are lining up to get shot up with their
> latest drug, and calling those who don't names?
>
> Reading FFL in "Message View" only is instructive. 
> It contains only the first sentence or so of each 
> post, which is more than enough to determine that my
> decision never to click on posts from certain people
> ever again was a wise one, and my suspicion that none
> of these people would ever say anything worth reading
> was *mainly* accurate. However, not even *I* could 
> have foreseen "Get your flu shot or you are unAmerican." 
> That's a new level of crazy altogether.

Exactly.  We don't even know if the vaccine is going to work.   Plus 
people who are already immune even if it is a natural immunity can't 
spread it.  Nothing  like being called a Republican because you won't 
get a flu shot. :-D

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:

> Me, I can stay out of this silly egodebate because 
> Spain is quite sensibly waiting for the vaccine to
> prove itself safe before even looking into it. The
> exact quote was, "If the Americans want to act as
> guinea pigs for yet another pharmaceutical company,
> so be it. We will analyze the real public data to
> determine the vaccine's safety and effectiveness, 
> not the data coming from the manufacturer."

Schoolchildren and teachers among the first to receive the flu vaccine 

Priority will be given to those providing essential services, pregnant women 
and other high risk groups

RAFAEL HERRERO

PROTECTION. The under 14's will be first in line for 
the jab. In the absence of any definitive guidance from 
the World Health Organisation in Brussels, Spain has 
decided to go ahead with a programme of vaccination 
against the Swine flu (AH1N1). Among the first to 
benefit will be 6.5 million children under 14 years, 
who will receive the vaccine from October. At the same 
time those in essential services, including teachers, 
police and health service personnel will also be on 
the priority vaccination list. In addition those in 
high risk groups such as, pregnant women and people 
suffering from a range of chronic cardiovascular and 
respiratory diseases.

The vaccination of schoolchildren is designed to 
reduce the likely spread of the virus through children 
to the wider population. Among the older population, 
only those with susceptible medical conditions will be 
vaccinated as, curiously it seems the healthy elderly 
are less at risk than young adults. The vaccine will 
be available in Spain in the autumn in line with other 
European countries. Clinical trials are in the final 
stages and the vaccine may well be utilised before 
they are completed. The Government will also make 
available other antivirus treatments which have proved 
effective if used within the first 48 hours of the 
illness and continue with public information 
campaigns.

http://www.talkradioeurope.com/news/publish/article_22549.shtml

http://tinyurl.com/nuxwhd

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >
> > I'm only relating my own experience.  Everyone
> > else can decide for themselves.
> 
> You're arguing with people who want...nay, need...
> everyone to do and think as she says. Anything less
> is treated as stupidity and disloyalty to their holy
> "rightness."  :-)

I wonder who the people are that Bhairitu is arguing 
with who want everyone to do and think as I say...

> Me, I can stay out of this silly egodebate because 
> Spain is quite sensibly waiting for the vaccine to
> prove itself safe before even looking into it.

Well, er, not according to Spain, it isn't. See
next post. It appears that the person Barry goes on
to quote "exactly" is none other than Barry himself:

 The
> exact quote was, "If the Americans want to act as
> guinea pigs for yet another pharmaceutical company,
> so be it. We will analyze the real public data to
> determine the vaccine's safety and effectiveness, 
> not the data coming from the manufacturer."

By which time, of course, the flu would have spread so
widely in Spain that there'd be little point in giving
the vaccine.

Very smart, Maria, very smart!

> Isn't it fascinating that the very people who have
> been casting Big Phrama as the Bad Guys in the health
> care debate are lining up to get shot up with their
> latest drug, and calling those who don't names?

Two fascinating things:

1. Nobody called anybody names because they don't
want to get a flu shot. Barry hallucinated that.

2. Barry seems to feel that because some of us
disapprove of the behavior of "Big Phrama" [sic]
with regard to health reform, we should refuse to
take their drugs and just go ahead and get sick.
That'll show those nasty drug companies!



Apparently Barry is just fine with "Big Phrama," 
since, as he told us awhile back, he has stocked up
on Tamiflu.

> Reading FFL in "Message View" only is instructive. 
> It contains only the first sentence or so of each 
> post, which is more than enough to determine that my
> decision never to click on posts from certain people
> ever again was a wise one,

Unfortunately, reading only the first sentence or
two of the posts hasn't enabled Barry to determine
what the posts are actually *about*, so when he
responds to them, he makes an even bigger fool of
himself than usual.

 and my suspicion that none
> of these people would ever say anything worth reading
> was *mainly* accurate. However, not even *I* could 
> have foreseen "Get your flu shot or you are unAmerican." 
> That's a new level of crazy altogether.

It sure is. And Barry dreamed it up all by his lonesome. 
Nobody called anybody "unAmerican."

Oh, other than Bhairitu, who accused me of being "Nazi-
like" and claimed I was being paid by the CIA to promote
the flu shot.

Jeez. Barry's vacation has apparently so depressed him
that he's in full self-destruct mode.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[raunchydog]

So I wonder if Barry has been taking Tamiflu or if he's still stockpiling it.

"Overuse of antivirals could make H1N1 pandemic even worse"
http://tinyurl.com/n5vj9s 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >
> > I'm only relating my own experience.  Everyone else can decide for 
> > themselves.
> 
> I think that's the issue that is really in contention.
> You're arguing with people who want...nay, need...
> everyone to do and think as she says. Anything less
> is treated as stupidity and disloyalty to their holy
> "rightness."  :-)
> 
> Me, I can stay out of this silly egodebate because 
> Spain is quite sensibly waiting for the vaccine to
> prove itself safe before even looking into it. The
> exact quote was, "If the Americans want to act as
> guinea pigs for yet another pharmaceutical company,
> so be it. We will analyze the real public data to
> determine the vaccine's safety and effectiveness, 
> not the data coming from the manufacturer."
> 
> Isn't it fascinating that the very people who have
> been casting Big Phrama as the Bad Guys in the health
> care debate are lining up to get shot up with their
> latest drug, and calling those who don't names?
> 
> Reading FFL in "Message View" only is instructive. 
> It contains only the first sentence or so of each 
> post, which is more than enough to determine that my
> decision never to click on posts from certain people
> ever again was a wise one, and my suspicion that none
> of these people would ever say anything worth reading
> was *mainly* accurate. However, not even *I* could 
> have foreseen "Get your flu shot or you are unAmerican." 
> That's a new level of crazy altogether.
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> I'm only relating my own experience.  Everyone else can decide for 
> themselves.

I think that's the issue that is really in contention.
You're arguing with people who want...nay, need...
everyone to do and think as she says. Anything less
is treated as stupidity and disloyalty to their holy
"rightness."  :-)

Me, I can stay out of this silly egodebate because 
Spain is quite sensibly waiting for the vaccine to
prove itself safe before even looking into it. The
exact quote was, "If the Americans want to act as
guinea pigs for yet another pharmaceutical company,
so be it. We will analyze the real public data to
determine the vaccine's safety and effectiveness, 
not the data coming from the manufacturer."

Isn't it fascinating that the very people who have
been casting Big Phrama as the Bad Guys in the health
care debate are lining up to get shot up with their
latest drug, and calling those who don't names?

Reading FFL in "Message View" only is instructive. 
It contains only the first sentence or so of each 
post, which is more than enough to determine that my
decision never to click on posts from certain people
ever again was a wise one, and my suspicion that none
of these people would ever say anything worth reading
was *mainly* accurate. However, not even *I* could 
have foreseen "Get your flu shot or you are unAmerican." 
That's a new level of crazy altogether.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

Read up on flu viruses and vaccines; also read up on
what's known as "herd immunity."

Vaccines may have some side effects (rare in the
case of flu vaccines), but they do confer some 
protection against the flu virus by stimulating
antibody production, so if there is a "fissure"
that the virus gets into, the body is better able
to fight it off.

It would be nice if we could manage to get
everybody's "fissures" closed, but that isn't
realistic.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings  wrote:
>
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
>  , "authfriend" 
> wrote:
> >
> > The vaccine is, of course, being tested in humans. The
> > first tests on adults have raised no red flags, so
> > testing has now begun in children.
> >
> > The thing to remember about vaccinations is that they
> > not only protect those who have been vaccinated, they
> > also protect those who have *not* been vaccinated>>
> 
> No they don't. Viruses can only invade where there is a weakness.
> A virus is like a crystal that grows in the fissures of a rock.
> If there are no fissures (weaknesses) in the rock, then the crystal will
> not grow. The crystal cannot cause the fissure, and it is not a
> malicious entity. It merely fills a void that is already there.
> 
> Close the void to stop the virus. Vaccines generally create weaknesses
> as is evidenced in ALL the research on 'side-effects' of vaccines.
> 
> All instances where a virus was seen to wane in a population was
> atributable to the natural cycle of spread and dissolution of the viral
> potency. Nothing to do with  vaccines.
> 
> OffWorld

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , "authfriend" 
wrote:
>
> The vaccine is, of course, being tested in humans. The
> first tests on adults have raised no red flags, so
> testing has now begun in children.
>
> The thing to remember about vaccinations is that they
> not only protect those who have been vaccinated, they
> also protect those who have *not* been vaccinated>>

No they don't. Viruses can only invade where there is a weakness.
A virus is like a crystal that grows in the fissures of a rock.
If there are no fissures (weaknesses) in the rock, then the crystal will
not grow. The crystal cannot cause the fissure, and it is not a
malicious entity. It merely fills a void that is already there.

Close the void to stop the virus. Vaccines generally create weaknesses
as is evidenced in ALL the research on 'side-effects' of vaccines.

All instances where a virus was seen to wane in a population was
atributable to the natural cycle of spread and dissolution of the viral
potency. Nothing to do with  vaccines.

OffWorld


>
> So it may seem all wonderfully macho to refuse to get
> vaccinated, but if you don't, you're contributing to
> the likelihood of other people getting sick.
>
> And BTW, it's *already* a pandemic.
>
> As far as mercury (thimerosal) is concerned, it will
> be used as a preservative in multidose vials of the
> vaccine, but single-dose vials are also being produced,
> and these will be what are used for children (although
> there's zero evidence that thimerosal causes autism).
>
>
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , Bhairitu  wrote:
> >
> > Massachusetts is trying to pass a bill that may result in a $1000 a
day
> > fine if you refuse to get the Swine Flu vaccination.  Now we already
had
> > a scare of Swine Flu back in the 1970s and some folks came down with
> > terrible side effects including paralysis.  Most folks here are into
> > natural medicine and probably don't want the vaccine.  I've never
had a
> > flu shot and also can't remember the last time I've got the flu. 
Like
> > most yogis here I notice immediately when a bug is trying to invade
and
> > do the usual things to boot it out of my system.  We don't know what
is
> > in these vaccines but they may be using things like mercury.  The
> > vaccine is also untested on humans.  Do you really want this junk in
> > your body?
> >
> > Hopefully this pandemic is nothing but nonsense and will never occur
nor
> > the mass vaccinations.  But it is estimated that at least half of
the US
> > will refuse the vaccination.
> >
> > News report on Massachusetts bill:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_oD55WvDmM

> >
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  wrote:

> > > Probably only the most at-risk people should get the flu
> > > vaccine, based on recent experiences with flu vaccination:
> > 
> > Oy, Bob, this story is NOT about the flu vaccine.
> > 
> > It's about Tamiflu and Relenza, antiviral medications
> > you take in pill or nasal spray form to *treat* the flu.
> > Nothing to do with the vaccine AT ALL.
> > 
> > PLEASE don't confuse the issue!!!
> 
> 
> 
> My speed reading, again. Aside from the question about
> the efficacy of antivirals, vaccines are no cure-all
> when it comes to flu:
> 
> Waste of Time?

This piece isn't dated, but it was apparently written
before the current swine flu came along. It's relevant
to the seasonal flu vaccines, but even there the
author's perspective isn't shared by flu experts 
(which she isn't), including the CDC. She's not an
epidemiologist or an immunologist, nor is she an M.D.
Her bio is notably lightweight, in fact:

"Anne has taught chemistry, biology, and physics at the
high school, college, and graduate level. In her doctoral
work, Anne developed ultra-sensitive chemical detection
and medical diagnostic tests. She has worked abstracting/
indexing diverse scientific literature for the Department
of Energy. She presently works as a freelance writer and
scientific consultant. She enjoys adapting lab-based
science projects so that they can be performed safely at
home."

So I'm not really inclined to give her opinion a whole
lot of weight. Unless somebody--preferably several
somebodies--very highly qualified comes out with a 
different recommendation, I'd go by what the CDC says.

She's correct that flu vaccines are no guarantee you
won't get sick, but that doesn't mean they don't provide
enough protection enough of the time for enough people
to be worth the trouble.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[off_world_beings]

Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

They can stick it up my ass.
I won't get side-effects or toxins from their worst medicines, and I
won't get swine flu, aids, ebola virus, or anything, even if you inject
the virus into my bloodstream. My body annihilates all sickness. Period.
I never get sick. Not even the slightest cold. All disease and toxins
will be assimilated and turned against the malicious perpetrators. The
days of of the ignorant are numbered.

OffWorld


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> Massachusetts is trying to pass a bill that may result in a $1000 a
day
> fine if you refuse to get the Swine Flu vaccination.  Now we already
had
> a scare of Swine Flu back in the 1970s and some folks came down with
> terrible side effects including paralysis.  Most folks here are into
> natural medicine and probably don't want the vaccine.  I've never had
a
> flu shot and also can't remember the last time I've got the flu.  Like
> most yogis here I notice immediately when a bug is trying to invade
and
> do the usual things to boot it out of my system.  We don't know what
is
> in these vaccines but they may be using things like mercury.  The
> vaccine is also untested on humans.  Do you really want this junk in
> your body?
>
> Hopefully this pandemic is nothing but nonsense and will never occur
nor
> the mass vaccinations.  But it is estimated that at least half of the
US
> will refuse the vaccination.
>
> News report on Massachusetts bill:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_oD55WvDmM

>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[bob_brigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot.
> > > There's a shortage, and I don't think I'm in a high
> > > risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.
> > 
> > **
> > 
> > Probably only the most at-risk people should get the flu
> > vaccine, based on recent experiences with flu vaccination:
> 
> Oy, Bob, this story is NOT about the flu vaccine.
> 
> It's about Tamiflu and Relenza, antiviral medications
> you take in pill or nasal spray form to *treat* the flu.
> Nothing to do with the vaccine AT ALL.
> 
> PLEASE don't confuse the issue!!!
>



My speed reading, again. Aside from the question about the efficacy of 
antivirals, vaccines are no cure-all when it comes to flu:

Waste of Time?

Yes and no... the flu vaccine will be more effective some years than others. 
The CDC predicted that the vaccine developed for the winter of 2003/2004 wasn't 
going to be effective against most cases of the flu because the strains covered 
by the vaccine weren't the same as the strains that were common. Highly 
targeted vaccines work, but only against their targets! There's no point in 
accepting the risks of a vaccine for a disease you can't get. When the flu 
vaccine is on-target, it's more effective. Even then, the vaccine isn't perfect 
because it uses inactivated virus. Is that bad? No. A live vaccine is more 
effective, but much more risky.

Bottom line: The flu vaccine varies in effectiveness from year-to-year. Even in 
a best-case scenario, it won't always protect against the flu. The CDC study 
didn't say that the vaccine didn't work; it says the vaccine didn't protect 
people from getting sick. Even with imperfect effectiveness, the vaccine is 
indicated for certain people. In my opinion, however, the vaccine isn't for 
everyone and certainly shouldn't be required for otherwise healthy people.
 
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa011604a.htm

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:

> > Translation: Bhairitu's ego got trampled by a bunch
> > of solid medical knowledge he can't refute. So he
> > resorts to insults--just like the town-hall shouters.
>
> Is that so?  For the record (to use one of Judy's most
> over used expressions) I've been pointing out on certain
> forums where early on they were miss-reading the health
> care bill what they were getting wrong and that it was
> a draft!   A lot of the language at the time they were 
> looking at it was "we need something like this..."  IOW,
> a draft.  Did you actually download and look through the
> bill yourself?

Complete non sequitur. You must have misread what
I wrote. Try it again, please.

>  Again for the record, I've also not only taken courses
> on ayurveda but know some western medicine too.

One would never know it...

  I was interested in seeing the 
> correlation between western and eastern medicine.  And I
> have discussed this with MDs.   My experience with colds
> is that decongestants like pseudophedrine dry up the nose.
> That keeps the rhinovirus isolated and the immune system
> can strangle it.

Yes, they dry up the nose. No, they don't "keep the
rhinovirus isolated so the immune system can strangle
it." That makes no sense medically. Ask Ruth next
time she shows up. Decongestants are for symptom
relief.

> Hot spicy tea will do the same.

Hot spicy tea is great. It reduces inflammation in
the nasal passages, dilutes the secretions so they
drain, and raises the internal temperature, making
the environment hostile to the virus so it can't
thrive.

> It also tends to shut down any flu virus I might come
> into contact with.

You can't know that.

> Don't have the tea handy an anti-kapha mantra will also
> do the trick. My immune system is so sensitive that if
> anyone says the word flu I start to get a fever and it
> snaps into play.

Sounds more like you're very suggestible.

> I think you are looking at medicine from one dimension
> only.  That's why I found your comments prattling.

Look, I'm a fan of alternative medicine, including
Ayur-Veda. But what you've been spouting about the
flu hasn't been Ayur-Veda for the most part, and
it's been medically ignorant.

> I'm only relating my own experience.  Everyone else can
> decide for themselves.

Good caveat. But *do* get a flu shot.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[It's just a ride]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:15 PM, yifuxero wrote:
> ---thx, I had 15 EDTA IV's in the 80's but the stuff lowers my blood sugar 
> level and blood pressure so much I can no longer use it in any form.  In 
> regard to the flu though, I don't see a direct connection between chelation 
> and protection from the flu.
>  There are two supplments that will definitely protect you though, for sure. 
> First, the supplments are: 1. LACTOFERRIN 2. LAURICIDIN (lAURIC ACID).

Thanks, but I have total of 90 more EDTA IVs and 90 more 75 gram
Vitamin C IVs to go.   I get two of each a week.  I'll definitely be
protected from the flu since the EDTA contains 12.5 grams Vitamin C,
for a total of 175 grams of Vitamin C IV a week.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[yifuxero]

---thx, I had 15 EDTA IV's in the 80's but the stuff lowers my blood sugar 
level and blood pressure so much I can no longer use it in any form.  In regard 
to the flu though, I don't see a direct connection between chelation and 
protection from the flu.
 There are two supplments that will definitely protect you though, for sure. 
First, the supplments are: 1. LACTOFERRIN 2. LAURICIDIN (lAURIC ACID).
Now as to "why" these ingredients are effective, the modes of action are 
completely different; but both ingredients are found naturally in Mother's (all 
mammals) milk and serve to protect newborns especially in the first few days 
after birth.

Disclaimer: I don't market supplements...just take them and do the research. 

Lactoferrin and Lauricidin are anti-bacterial, anti-viral and will protect 
against HIV, Herpes, etc; as evidenced by cites shown in a brief google search. 
In addition, these supplements, are one's best best bet against pneumonia, a 
real killer.  H1N1, no problem, piece of cake.
I get my Lauricidin from the Co. set up by the first person to separate Lauric 
acid from coconut oil and sell it commercially as a supplements.  Check out the 
numerous testimonials.:
http://www.lauricidin.com
I take one scoop per day but there's no limit on this. Completely natural and 
non-toxic.
Also increases one's energy level and gives a boost to the thyroid.

As to lactoferrin, this is an iron-binding substance, (thus, the "ferrin"). I 
get mine from Swanson's Health products.
Go easy on this however.  Effects of large doses are unknown and beyond a 
certain intake, would not increase benefits. One cap per day should do it.  
Take 2 per day temporarily if something's coming on.

Now as to chelation, I don't believe EDTA chelates metals (iron and below on 
the periodic table). Lactoferrin will take care of the iron, but the real 
culprit is CALCIUM in the wrong places. In the bones, OK, but definitely NOT 
too much in the brain or arterial system!
To remove Calcium from places we don't want it, and deposit it in places it's 
supposed to go, take MENA-Q7, a form of Vitamin K2 imported from Japan.
 A steady program of MENA-Q7 may protect you more than spending lots of $$ on 
EDTA. (just my opinion).
But don't forget you NATTOKINASE (dissolves fibrin and clots); since although 
the EDTA will be complementary, doesn't directly dissolve fibrin. 


 In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "It's just a ride" 
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:51 PM, raunchydog wrote:
> >
> > The point about everyone getting a flu shot is that it protects everyone's 
> > health, not just yours. I hope this discussion will help people make a 
> > choice for the greater good. If you're in favor of a single payer system 
> > health care, it means you're interested in health care for all. Getting a 
> > flu shot would just be a practical demonstration that your political values 
> > match your ethics.
> >
> 
> No way, Jose.  I'm spending about $32K for EDTA and DMSA chelation.
> Though I travel a lot internationally, I'm going to even avoid the
> vaccines "recommended" for international travel.  When the single
> payer system pays for removing the heavy metals out of my body, then
> I'll consider getting a flu shot.
>

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[It's just a ride]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:51 PM, raunchydog wrote:
>
> The point about everyone getting a flu shot is that it protects everyone's 
> health, not just yours. I hope this discussion will help people make a choice 
> for the greater good. If you're in favor of a single payer system health 
> care, it means you're interested in health care for all. Getting a flu shot 
> would just be a practical demonstration that your political values match your 
> ethics.
>

No way, Jose.  I'm spending about $32K for EDTA and DMSA chelation.
Though I travel a lot internationally, I'm going to even avoid the
vaccines "recommended" for international travel.  When the single
payer system pays for removing the heavy metals out of my body, then
I'll consider getting a flu shot.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

authfriend wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>   
>> authfriend wrote:
>> 
> 
>   
>>> Sure, there are lots of things you can do to make
>>> yourself feel somewhat better once you've come down
>>> with it, but the point is NOT TO GET IT IN THE
>>> FIRST PLACE IF YOU CAN POSSIBLY HELP IT.
>>>
>>> Once you've been infected--which will very likely be
>>> well before you notice--you'll be shedding the virus
>>> throughout the illness and for up to a week after all
>>> your symptoms have disappeared.
>>>
>>> Look up HERD IMMUNITY, please.
>>>
>>> BTW, drying up your secretions is not a good way
>>> to deal with an ordinary cold. The best way is to
>>> *push fluids*, especially *warm* fluids, to dilute
>>> the secretions so they'll drain more easily, and
>>> because the cold virus doesn't like higher
>>> temperatures.
>>>   
>> More nonsense prattling from the old bitty from New Jersey.
>> Whose ego is so important her head is about to burst just
>> like in the movie "Scanners."  :-D
>> 
>
> Translation: Bhairitu's ego got trampled by a bunch
> of solid medical knowledge he can't refute. So he
> resorts to insults--just like the town-hall shouters.
Is that so?  For the record (to use one of Judy's most over used 
expressions) I've been pointing out on certain forums where early on 
they were miss-reading the health care bill what they were getting wrong 
and that it was a draft!   A lot of the language at the time they were 
looking at it was "we need something like this..."  IOW, a draft.  Did 
you actually download and look through the bill yourself?

 Again for the record, I've also not only taken courses on ayurveda but 
know some western medicine too.  I was interested in seeing the 
correlation between western and eastern medicine.  And I have discussed 
this with MDs.   My experience with colds is that decongestants like 
pseudophedrine dry up the nose.  That keeps the rhinovirus isolated and 
the immune system can strangle it.  Hot spicy tea will do the same.  It 
also tends to shut down any flu virus I might come into contact with.   
Don't have the tea handy an anti-kapha mantra will also do the trick.   
My immune system is so sensitive that if anyone says the word flu I 
start to get a fever and it snaps into play. 

I think you are looking at medicine from one dimension only.  That's why 
I found your comments prattling.

I'm only relating my own experience.  Everyone else can decide for 
themselves.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[raunchydog]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> raunchydog wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >   
> > The point about everyone getting a flu shot is that it protects everyone's 
> > health, not just yours. I hope this discussion will help people make a 
> > choice for the greater good. If you're in favor of a single payer system 
> > health care, it means you're interested in health care for all. Getting a 
> > flu shot would just be a practical demonstration that your political values 
> > match your ethics. 
> >   
> 
> What a load of bull!  So now if we're going to be a progressive we have 
> to prove by taking a shot that might make us ill, might even kill us?  
> Give me a break.  You're being so superficial you give progressives a 
> bad name!  Before I'd take any shot I would want a full listing of what 
> is in it.
> 

Progressives supposedly care about other people. Refusing to get a flu shot 
proves you're a Republican. Come on, take one for the team. Judy's cybug fact 
checker is getting to you. Relax. I'm sure you can find out exactly what's in a 
flu shot on the internet and you'll still think it's going to kill you no 
matter how much you know about it. 

> > Your best protection for yourself and others is to wash your hands 
> > frequently, if you sneeze, cover your mouth in the crook of your elbow, 
> > stay home if you feel sick, and get a flu shot. Ayurvedic Remedies may help 
> > strengthening your immune system, but we still don't know how much the H1N1 
> > virus will mutate, or how virulent by the time flu season hits or how 
> > resistant even the most hardy of us will be.  
> Ayurvedic remedies can do more than just strengthen immune system.  
> There are ways of killing off bugs and viruses with it.  How that works 
> is beyond the scope of this discussion group.
>

Do tell.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

raunchydog wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>   
>> authfriend wrote:
>> 
>>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
 I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot.
 There's a shortage, and I don't think I'm in a high
 risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.
 
 
>>> No, you probably won't be able to get a swine flu shot
>>> with the first batches they release. But later on there'll
>>> be more available, quite possibly for those not in high-
>>> risk groups. And you should get the seasonal flu shot, of
>>> which there'll be plenty.
>>>   
>> Why should Rick bother with the seasonal shot if he rarely if ever gets 
>> the flu?  People who meditate should be able to recognize the early 
>> invasion of a virus in the body.  Way earlier than a non-meditating 
>> person would.   If you have a still mind then it is easy.  That's one of 
>> the things we learned meditation for.  As soon as you notice it there 
>> are a number of things one can do.  Even MAPI has some flu 
>> recommendations on their site.   And for the ayurvedic challenged, flu 
>> usually occurs when one has a kapha imbalance and because of the excess 
>> mucus the virus has a lot goo to play around in.  Dry up the goo and see 
>> what happens.  BTW, that is how many cold medicines work is to dry you 
>> out.  That's what pseudo-ephedrine does which now the government makes 
>> you register if you want some tablets with it in it.  Of course you can 
>> grow the herb ephedra in your garden.  It grows wild all over the US.  
>> Your kitchen cabinet contains many cold and flu relief items already.   
>> I highly recommend Vasant Lad's "The Complete Book of Ayurvedic Home 
>> Remedies" to learn what those are.
>>
>> 
>
> The point about everyone getting a flu shot is that it protects everyone's 
> health, not just yours. I hope this discussion will help people make a choice 
> for the greater good. If you're in favor of a single payer system health 
> care, it means you're interested in health care for all. Getting a flu shot 
> would just be a practical demonstration that your political values match your 
> ethics. 
>   

What a load of bull!  So now if we're going to be a progressive we have 
to prove by taking a shot that might make us ill, might even kill us?  
Give me a break.  You're being so superficial you give progressives a 
bad name!  Before I'd take any shot I would want a full listing of what 
is in it.

> Your best protection for yourself and others is to wash your hands 
> frequently, if you sneeze, cover your mouth in the crook of your elbow, stay 
> home if you feel sick, and get a flu shot. Ayurvedic Remedies may help 
> strengthening your immune system, but we still don't know how much the H1N1 
> virus will mutate, or how virulent by the time flu season hits or how 
> resistant even the most hardy of us will be.  
Ayurvedic remedies can do more than just strengthen immune system.  
There are ways of killing off bugs and viruses with it.  How that works 
is beyond the scope of this discussion group.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> authfriend wrote:

> > Sure, there are lots of things you can do to make
> > yourself feel somewhat better once you've come down
> > with it, but the point is NOT TO GET IT IN THE
> > FIRST PLACE IF YOU CAN POSSIBLY HELP IT.
> >
> > Once you've been infected--which will very likely be
> > well before you notice--you'll be shedding the virus
> > throughout the illness and for up to a week after all
> > your symptoms have disappeared.
> >
> > Look up HERD IMMUNITY, please.
> >
> > BTW, drying up your secretions is not a good way
> > to deal with an ordinary cold. The best way is to
> > *push fluids*, especially *warm* fluids, to dilute
> > the secretions so they'll drain more easily, and
> > because the cold virus doesn't like higher
> > temperatures.
> 
> More nonsense prattling from the old bitty from New Jersey.
> Whose ego is so important her head is about to burst just
> like in the movie "Scanners."  :-D

Translation: Bhairitu's ego got trampled by a bunch
of solid medical knowledge he can't refute. So he
resorts to insults--just like the town-hall shouters.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

authfriend wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>   
>> authfriend wrote:
>> 
>>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
 I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot.
 There's a shortage, and I don't think I'm in a high
 risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.
 
>>> No, you probably won't be able to get a swine flu shot
>>> with the first batches they release. But later on there'll
>>> be more available, quite possibly for those not in high-
>>> risk groups. And you should get the seasonal flu shot, of
>>> which there'll be plenty.
>>>   
>> Why should Rick bother with the seasonal shot if he
>> rarely if ever gets the flu?
>> 
>
> Because having gotten it rarely if ever in the past
> says NOTHING about whether you'll get it in the
> future.
>
> It's like saying, I've never had an auto accident,
> so why should I bother with a seat belt?
>
> The whole thing with the flu virus is that it keeps
> *changing* every year--that's why they have new
> shots every year, because the previous ones don't
> give you immunity to the most recent virus.
>
> It's especially important not to get the seasonal
> flu this year because we'll have a double dose of
> flu virus, so a lot more people are going to get
> sick. This is going to strain health care resources,
> hospitals and doctors and clinics and emergency
> rooms. Anything we can do to *minimize* that number
> will be to the good.
>
>   
>> People who meditate should be able to recognize the
>> early invasion of a virus in the body. Way earlier
>> than a non-meditating person would.   If you have a
>> still mind then it is easy.  That's one of the things
>> we learned meditation for.
>> 
>
> I'm sorry, but this is utterly irrelevant as a
> basis for not getting a flu shot, seasonal or
> swine type. The point is NOT TO GET INVADED IN THE
> FIRST PLACE.
>
>   
>> As soon as you notice it there are a number of things
>> one can do.  Even MAPI has some flu recommendations
>> on their site.   And for the ayurvedic challenged,
>> flu usually occurs when one has a kapha imbalance and
>> because of the excess mucus the virus has a lot goo
>> to play around in.  Dry up the goo and see what happens.
>> BTW, that is how many cold medicines work is to dry you
>> out.
>> 
>
> Sorry, Bhairitu, but you're as ignorant of medical
> facts as the town-hall shouters are about health
> reform.
>
> Drying up your secretions is *not* going to prevent
> you from getting the flu. In fact, it may make you
> more vulnerable.
>
> And of course once you've noticed it, via woo-woo
> or because you start to feel lousy, it means you've
> been spreading the virus around already for several
> days.
>
> Sure, there are lots of things you can do to make
> yourself feel somewhat better once you've come down
> with it, but the point is NOT TO GET IT IN THE
> FIRST PLACE IF YOU CAN POSSIBLY HELP IT.
>
> Once you've been infected--which will very likely be
> well before you notice--you'll be shedding the virus
> throughout the illness and for up to a week after all
> your symptoms have disappeared.
>
> Look up HERD IMMUNITY, please.
>
> BTW, drying up your secretions is not a good way
> to deal with an ordinary cold. The best way is to
> *push fluids*, especially *warm* fluids, to dilute
> the secretions so they'll drain more easily, and
> because the cold virus doesn't like higher
> temperatures.

More nonsense prattling from the old bitty from New Jersey.   Whose ego 
is so important her head is about to burst just like in the movie 
"Scanners."  :-D

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[raunchydog]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> authfriend wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> >   
> >> I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot.
> >> There's a shortage, and I don't think I'm in a high
> >> risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.
> >> 
> >
> > No, you probably won't be able to get a swine flu shot
> > with the first batches they release. But later on there'll
> > be more available, quite possibly for those not in high-
> > risk groups. And you should get the seasonal flu shot, of
> > which there'll be plenty.
> 
> Why should Rick bother with the seasonal shot if he rarely if ever gets 
> the flu?  People who meditate should be able to recognize the early 
> invasion of a virus in the body.  Way earlier than a non-meditating 
> person would.   If you have a still mind then it is easy.  That's one of 
> the things we learned meditation for.  As soon as you notice it there 
> are a number of things one can do.  Even MAPI has some flu 
> recommendations on their site.   And for the ayurvedic challenged, flu 
> usually occurs when one has a kapha imbalance and because of the excess 
> mucus the virus has a lot goo to play around in.  Dry up the goo and see 
> what happens.  BTW, that is how many cold medicines work is to dry you 
> out.  That's what pseudo-ephedrine does which now the government makes 
> you register if you want some tablets with it in it.  Of course you can 
> grow the herb ephedra in your garden.  It grows wild all over the US.  
> Your kitchen cabinet contains many cold and flu relief items already.   
> I highly recommend Vasant Lad's "The Complete Book of Ayurvedic Home 
> Remedies" to learn what those are.
>

The point about everyone getting a flu shot is that it protects everyone's 
health, not just yours. I hope this discussion will help people make a choice 
for the greater good. If you're in favor of a single payer system health care, 
it means you're interested in health care for all. Getting a flu shot would 
just be a practical demonstration that your political values match your ethics. 

Your best protection for yourself and others is to wash your hands frequently, 
if you sneeze, cover your mouth in the crook of your elbow, stay home if you 
feel sick, and get a flu shot. Ayurvedic Remedies may help strengthening your 
immune system, but we still don't know how much the H1N1 virus will mutate, or 
how virulent by the time flu season hits or how resistant even the most hardy 
of us will be.  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> authfriend wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> >   
> >> I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot.
> >> There's a shortage, and I don't think I'm in a high
> >> risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.
> >
> > No, you probably won't be able to get a swine flu shot
> > with the first batches they release. But later on there'll
> > be more available, quite possibly for those not in high-
> > risk groups. And you should get the seasonal flu shot, of
> > which there'll be plenty.
> 
> Why should Rick bother with the seasonal shot if he
> rarely if ever gets the flu?

Because having gotten it rarely if ever in the past
says NOTHING about whether you'll get it in the
future.

It's like saying, I've never had an auto accident,
so why should I bother with a seat belt?

The whole thing with the flu virus is that it keeps
*changing* every year--that's why they have new
shots every year, because the previous ones don't
give you immunity to the most recent virus.

It's especially important not to get the seasonal
flu this year because we'll have a double dose of
flu virus, so a lot more people are going to get
sick. This is going to strain health care resources,
hospitals and doctors and clinics and emergency
rooms. Anything we can do to *minimize* that number
will be to the good.

> People who meditate should be able to recognize the
> early invasion of a virus in the body. Way earlier
> than a non-meditating person would.   If you have a
> still mind then it is easy.  That's one of the things
> we learned meditation for.

I'm sorry, but this is utterly irrelevant as a
basis for not getting a flu shot, seasonal or
swine type. The point is NOT TO GET INVADED IN THE
FIRST PLACE.

> As soon as you notice it there are a number of things
> one can do.  Even MAPI has some flu recommendations
> on their site.   And for the ayurvedic challenged,
> flu usually occurs when one has a kapha imbalance and
> because of the excess mucus the virus has a lot goo
> to play around in.  Dry up the goo and see what happens.
> BTW, that is how many cold medicines work is to dry you
> out.

Sorry, Bhairitu, but you're as ignorant of medical
facts as the town-hall shouters are about health
reform.

Drying up your secretions is *not* going to prevent
you from getting the flu. In fact, it may make you
more vulnerable.

And of course once you've noticed it, via woo-woo
or because you start to feel lousy, it means you've
been spreading the virus around already for several
days.

Sure, there are lots of things you can do to make
yourself feel somewhat better once you've come down
with it, but the point is NOT TO GET IT IN THE
FIRST PLACE IF YOU CAN POSSIBLY HELP IT.

Once you've been infected--which will very likely be
well before you notice--you'll be shedding the virus
throughout the illness and for up to a week after all
your symptoms have disappeared.

Look up HERD IMMUNITY, please.

BTW, drying up your secretions is not a good way
to deal with an ordinary cold. The best way is to
*push fluids*, especially *warm* fluids, to dilute
the secretions so they'll drain more easily, and
because the cold virus doesn't like higher
temperatures.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[nelsonriddle2001]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >
> > authfriend wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> > > 
> > >   
> > >> I've never had a flu shot and I think I only got the
> > >> flu once bad enough to have to lay low and just read
> > >> a book for a few days. Most years I don't get sick
> > >> at all, and if I do get a mild something or other
> > >> after the sleep deprivation and crowds of an Amma
> > >> event, it's usually not bad enough that I can't work
> > >> or do normal things.
> > >
> > > Yebbut...that you've been sick with flu only once before
> > > doesn't tell you anything about whether you'll get it
> > > again--especially the current swine flu, which is new
> > > and different, so people don't have antibodies to it.
> > >
> > > (And if you're able to work and do normal things, that
> > > probably isn't the flu anyway, of any type.)
> > >
> > > The real point is, though, that even if you're not
> > > worried about catching the flu yourself, you should
> > > get the shot; because if you do catch it, you can
> > > spread it to other people who haven't had the shot
> > > (even before you actually start having symptoms), and
> > > who may be more vulnerable to getting *very* sick
> > > if they catch it. You wouldn't just be protecting
> > > yourself, in other words.
> > 
> > "Yebbut?"  A friend who is a psychology professor and
> > former TM'er himself says that TM'ers for some reason
> > respond with "yes, but."   He therefore calls them
> > "yesbutts."  ;-)
> 
> Um, "Yes, but..." is a common phrase used in any
> discussion.
> 
> > Folks are beginning to wonder if Judy has Baxter stock.
> 
> Oh, yeah, right.
> 
> > The flu spread argument is a straw dog.
> 
> Google "herd immunity." It's a well-established
> epidemiological principle.
> 
> > She's trying to make you feel guilty.
> 
> Translation: Bhairitu feels guilty.
> 
> Many people don't know about the herd immunity
> principle and don't realize that their personal
> decision about whether to get a flu shot doesn't
> affect just them.
> 
> There's no reason to feel guilty about not knowing
> about herd immunity. But once you *do* know about
> it, you have a different perspective on whether to
> get a shot--again, because it isn't something that
> affects only you.
> 
>   Would 
> > be really odd if there was a flu epidemic but those
> > who survived were the ones who didn't get the shot.
> 
> Yes, that *would* be really odd.
> 
> > Reminds me of a science fiction story
> 
> Me too. Do you usually make decisions about your
> health based on science fiction stories?
> 
>  where the rulers on this distant planet decided it was 
> > overpopulated and wanted to reduce the population so they said there was 
> > a big epidemic coming and told their populace to get vaccinated.  But it 
> > was actually the vaccine that killed off the populace.

 I would guess that, in this case, there might be some odds that it might not 
be science fiction.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

authfriend wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
>   
>> I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot.
>> There's a shortage, and I don't think I'm in a high
>> risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.
>> 
>
> No, you probably won't be able to get a swine flu shot
> with the first batches they release. But later on there'll
> be more available, quite possibly for those not in high-
> risk groups. And you should get the seasonal flu shot, of
> which there'll be plenty.

Why should Rick bother with the seasonal shot if he rarely if ever gets 
the flu?  People who meditate should be able to recognize the early 
invasion of a virus in the body.  Way earlier than a non-meditating 
person would.   If you have a still mind then it is easy.  That's one of 
the things we learned meditation for.  As soon as you notice it there 
are a number of things one can do.  Even MAPI has some flu 
recommendations on their site.   And for the ayurvedic challenged, flu 
usually occurs when one has a kapha imbalance and because of the excess 
mucus the virus has a lot goo to play around in.  Dry up the goo and see 
what happens.  BTW, that is how many cold medicines work is to dry you 
out.  That's what pseudo-ephedrine does which now the government makes 
you register if you want some tablets with it in it.  Of course you can 
grow the herb ephedra in your garden.  It grows wild all over the US.  
Your kitchen cabinet contains many cold and flu relief items already.   
I highly recommend Vasant Lad's "The Complete Book of Ayurvedic Home 
Remedies" to learn what those are.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
>
> I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot.
> There's a shortage, and I don't think I'm in a high
> risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.

No, you probably won't be able to get a swine flu shot
with the first batches they release. But later on there'll
be more available, quite possibly for those not in high-
risk groups. And you should get the seasonal flu shot, of
which there'll be plenty.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> >
> > I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot.
> > There's a shortage, and I don't think I'm in a high
> > risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.
> 
> **
> 
> Probably only the most at-risk people should get the flu
> vaccine, based on recent experiences with flu vaccination:

Oy, Bob, this story is NOT about the flu vaccine.

It's about Tamiflu and Relenza, antiviral medications
you take in pill or nasal spray form to *treat* the flu.
Nothing to do with the vaccine AT ALL.

PLEASE don't confuse the issue!!!

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[bob_brigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "It's just a ride"
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 5:23 PM, bob_briganteno_re...@yahoogroups.com
wrote:
> > "Indiscriminate use of antiviral medications to prevent and treat
influenza
> > could ease the way for drug-resistant strains of the novel H1N1
virus, or
> > swine flu, to emerge, public health officials warn -- making the
fight
> > against a pandemic that much harder.
> >
> > Already, a handful of cases of Tamiflu-resistant H1N1 have been
reported
> > this summer, and there is no shortage of examples of misuse of the
antiviral
> > medications, experts say.
>
> Remember Cipro, the wonder drug of 2001 everybody stocked, available
> in the US via shady mail order?



Recently had a UTI. The doctor said
> Cipro was out of the question. To many bugs are now resistant to it.
>


***



http://www.sciencecodex.com/unlocking_the_secret_of_the_bladders_bouncer\
s

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[It's just a ride]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 5:23 PM, bob_brigante wrote:
> "Indiscriminate use of antiviral medications to prevent and treat influenza
> could ease the way for drug-resistant strains of the novel H1N1 virus, or
> swine flu, to emerge, public health officials warn -- making the fight
> against a pandemic that much harder.
>
> Already, a handful of cases of Tamiflu-resistant H1N1 have been reported
> this summer, and there is no shortage of examples of misuse of the antiviral
> medications, experts say.

Remember Cipro, the wonder drug of 2001 everybody stocked, available
in the US via shady mail order?  Recently had a UTI.  The doctor said
Cipro was out of the question.  To many bugs are now resistant to it.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[bob_brigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
>
> I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot. There's a
shortage, and
> I don't think I'm in a high risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.
>


**

Probably only the most at-risk people should get the flu vaccine, based
on recent experiences with flu vaccination:

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-tamiflu24-2009aug24,0,46646\
54.story


"Indiscriminate use of antiviral medications to prevent and treat
influenza could ease the way for drug-resistant strains of the novel
H1N1 virus, or swine flu, to emerge, public health officials warn --
making the fight against a pandemic that much harder.

Already, a handful of cases of Tamiflu-resistant H1N1 have been reported
this summer, and there is no shortage of examples of misuse of the
antiviral medications, experts say.

People often fail to complete a full course of the drug, according to a
recent British report -- a scenario also likely to be occurring in the
U.S. and one that encourages resistance. Stockpiling is rife, and some
U.S. summer camps have given Tamiflu prophylactically to healthy kids
and staff, and have even told campers to bring the drug to camp. Experts
anticipate more problems in the fall as children return to school and
normal flu season draws nearer.

"Influenza viruses mutate frequently and any viral resistance could be
acquired easily," said Dr. Anne Schuchat, director of the National
Center on Immunization and Respiratory Disease at the Centers for
Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta. "It won't surprise us if we
see resistance emerge as a bigger problem in the fall or in the years
ahead."

Prescribed in pill form, Tamiflu (oseltamivir) works by preventing the
flu virus from leaving infected cells and spreading to new ones. Because
a vaccine against pandemic H1N1 influenza will not be widely available
for several months, Tamiflu and to a lesser extent Relenza (zanamivir),
an antiviral that acts similarly, are key medical tools for fighting the
pandemic in the meantime.

On Friday, however, the World Health Organization advised doctors that
even those who are sickened with swine flu do not need to be given
Tamiflu or Relenza if they are only mildly or moderately sick and are
not in a high-risk group (such as children under 5, pregnant women and
those with an underlying health condition).

Both drugs can help prevent illness in people exposed to the virus and
reduce illness severity in people already sickened with it. On Aug. 14,
after U.S. national soccer team forward Landon Donovan was diagnosed
with H1N1 flu, players, coaches and support staff of the U.S. and Galaxy
teams were advised to take Tamiflu as a preventive measure.

Tamiflu was chosen a few years ago for stockpiling by the federal
government to deal with future pandemics.

Health authorities in the United States and elsewhere are keeping a
sharp eye on prescriptions of the drug as they prepare for a surge of
H1N1 cases in the fall. The U.S. government has issued detailed
guidelines   on
prescribing antivirals. But health professionals may not follow the
recommendations or may give in to patients who pester them for
prescriptions that are ill-advised, said Dr. Robert Schechter, acting
chief of the immunization branch of the California Department of Public
Health.

"These medicines can be very helpful to those who could get very sick,"
Schechter said. "But excessive use will accelerate the development of
resistance and lead to the lack of a medication for everybody."

Anxiety over indiscriminate use is growing, and taking the medications
cavalierly is not without consequence. British health authorities
reported Aug. 2 that cases of side effects from Tamiflu had doubled in
the prior week, coinciding with the July 24 launch of a program in
England to provide antivirals to anyone with H1N1 influenza who requests
it over the phone or online.

In the first three days of the program, 150,000 packets of Tamiflu were
dispensed and 293 cases of side effects were reported. Tamiflu can cause
vomiting, diarrhea and mild neuropsychiatric effects.

Some U.S. health authorities have also expressed concern over misuse of
the medications. Last month, the CDC urged directors of summer camps to
stop handing out Tamiflu to healthy campers.

Americans are known to hoard antivirals: A 2006 study showed that
heightened anxiety over a possible avian flu pandemic caused Tamiflu
prescriptions to soar 300% in 2004 and 2005.

Just as with antibiotics, of central importance to antivirals' success
is taking them properly, including completing the recommended course.

However, a study published in late July found poor adherence among
children in London who took Tamiflu for prevention of pandemic H1N1 in
the spring.

Less than half of the grade-school-age children and only 76% of the 13-
a

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> authfriend wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >   
> >> authfriend wrote:
> >>> Heh. Bhairitu's as crazy as the town hall shouters, and
> >>> just as resistant to reason.
> >>>   
> >> You could have responded to my original post with
> >> something like "I intend to get the flu shot and
> >> here's why"
> >
> > That's exactly what I did.
> >   
> >> But instead you attacked  me.  Why do you do that?
> >
> > I didn't attack you (until just now, after *you*
> > attacked *me*).
>
> It may well be argued that you attacked me in your first
> reply with this:
> 
> "So it may seem all wonderfully macho to refuse to get
> vaccinated, but if you don't, you're contributing to
> the likelihood of other people getting sick."

That's an *attack*?? It applies to women just as 
much as to men. It refers to a feeling of strength
and invulnerability in this context.

> If you had replaced "you" with "one"  readers wouldn't
> see it that way. The "you" makes it look like it's
> addressing me.   And that is the only sentence in the
> reply that has "you."

Or "one." That's the only sentence that called
for either.

Come on, Bhairitu. How could I possibly have been
suggesting that it *only* applied to you? You
yourself said to start with that 50 percent of the
population would refuse to take the shot.

Even if you thought you had reason to take the
phrase as a little jab, your insult in response was
way, *way* out of proportion (and not the slightest
bit ambiguous).

Not to mention that you used it as an excuse to
ignore the substantive points I made.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

authfriend wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>   
>> authfriend wrote:
>> 
>>> Heh. Bhairitu's as crazy as the town hall shouters, and
>>> just as resistant to reason.
>>>   
>> You could have responded to my original post with something like "I 
>> intend to get the flu shot and here's why"
>> 
>
> That's exactly what I did.
>
>   
>> But instead you attacked  me.  Why do you do that?
>> 
>
> I didn't attack you (until just now, after *you*
> attacked *me*).
It may well be argued that you attacked me in your first reply with this:

"So it may seem all wonderfully macho to refuse to get
vaccinated, but if you don't, you're contributing to
the likelihood of other people getting sick."

If you had replaced "you" with "one"  readers wouldn't see it that way.  
The "you" makes it look like it's addressing me.   And that is the only 
sentence in the reply that has "you."

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Rick Archer]

I don't even know if I'd be eligible for a flu shot. There's a shortage, and
I don't think I'm in a high risk category. 59 yrs. old. Not pregnant.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> authfriend wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> > 
> >   
> >> I've never had a flu shot and I think I only got the
> >> flu once bad enough to have to lay low and just read
> >> a book for a few days. Most years I don't get sick
> >> at all, and if I do get a mild something or other
> >> after the sleep deprivation and crowds of an Amma
> >> event, it's usually not bad enough that I can't work
> >> or do normal things.
> >
> > Yebbut...that you've been sick with flu only once before
> > doesn't tell you anything about whether you'll get it
> > again--especially the current swine flu, which is new
> > and different, so people don't have antibodies to it.
> >
> > (And if you're able to work and do normal things, that
> > probably isn't the flu anyway, of any type.)
> >
> > The real point is, though, that even if you're not
> > worried about catching the flu yourself, you should
> > get the shot; because if you do catch it, you can
> > spread it to other people who haven't had the shot
> > (even before you actually start having symptoms), and
> > who may be more vulnerable to getting *very* sick
> > if they catch it. You wouldn't just be protecting
> > yourself, in other words.
> 
> "Yebbut?"  A friend who is a psychology professor and
> former TM'er himself says that TM'ers for some reason
> respond with "yes, but."   He therefore calls them
> "yesbutts."  ;-)

Um, "Yes, but..." is a common phrase used in any
discussion.

> Folks are beginning to wonder if Judy has Baxter stock.

Oh, yeah, right.

> The flu spread argument is a straw dog.

Google "herd immunity." It's a well-established
epidemiological principle.

> She's trying to make you feel guilty.

Translation: Bhairitu feels guilty.

Many people don't know about the herd immunity
principle and don't realize that their personal
decision about whether to get a flu shot doesn't
affect just them.

There's no reason to feel guilty about not knowing
about herd immunity. But once you *do* know about
it, you have a different perspective on whether to
get a shot--again, because it isn't something that
affects only you.

  Would 
> be really odd if there was a flu epidemic but those
> who survived were the ones who didn't get the shot.

Yes, that *would* be really odd.

> Reminds me of a science fiction story

Me too. Do you usually make decisions about your
health based on science fiction stories?

 where the rulers on this distant planet decided it was 
> overpopulated and wanted to reduce the population so they said there was 
> a big epidemic coming and told their populace to get vaccinated.  But it 
> was actually the vaccine that killed off the populace.
> 
> I've read one account of someone who had this flu and said
> it was terrible but survived it.  Other death cases first
> termed swine flu turned out to be regular flu.

And this is supposed to prove what, exactly?

Unless the swine flu mutates and becomes significantly
more virulent (i.e., more lethal), most people don't
have to worry about surviving it. But some do, and
they're the ones you want to protect by getting a flu
shot yourself so as to increase herd immunity.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[WillyTex]

> Bhairitu's as crazy as the town hall 
> shouters, and just as resistant to 
> reason.
> >
Bhairitu wrote:
> You could have responded to my original 
> post with something like "I intend to 
> get the flu shot and here's why"  
> But instead you attacked me.  Why do 
> you do that?
>
Because she like to attack? To Judy,
everyone who disagrees with her is 
part of a shouting mob, or they are
crazy, or outright liars. She knows that 
there's no cure for the 'flu', never 
has been. She knows we can't afford
medical care reform in the middle of 
a recession. She know that the Dems
are losing the war. So, what else can
she do but attack you for wanting the
right of refusal. Apparently Judy wants
to amend the U.S. Constitution without
even voting on it.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> authfriend wrote:
> > Heh. Bhairitu's as crazy as the town hall shouters, and
> > just as resistant to reason.
> 
> You could have responded to my original post with something like "I 
> intend to get the flu shot and here's why"

That's exactly what I did.

> But instead you attacked  me.  Why do you do that?

I didn't attack you (until just now, after *you*
attacked *me*).

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

authfriend wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:
> 
>   
>> I've never had a flu shot and I think I only got the
>> flu once bad enough to have to lay low and just read
>> a book for a few days. Most years I don't get sick
>> at all, and if I do get a mild something or other
>> after the sleep deprivation and crowds of an Amma
>> event, it's usually not bad enough that I can't work
>> or do normal things.
>> 
>
> Yebbut...that you've been sick with flu only once before
> doesn't tell you anything about whether you'll get it
> again--especially the current swine flu, which is new
> and different, so people don't have antibodies to it.
>
> (And if you're able to work and do normal things, that
> probably isn't the flu anyway, of any type.)
>
> The real point is, though, that even if you're not
> worried about catching the flu yourself, you should
> get the shot; because if you do catch it, you can
> spread it to other people who haven't had the shot
> (even before you actually start having symptoms), and
> who may be more vulnerable to getting *very* sick
> if they catch it. You wouldn't just be protecting
> yourself, in other words.

"Yebbut?"  A friend who is a psychology professor and former TM'er 
himself says that TM'ers for some reason respond with "yes, but."   He 
therefore calls them "yesbutts."  ;-)

Folks are beginning to wonder if Judy has Baxter stock.  The flu spread 
argument is a straw dog.  She's trying to make you feel guilty.  Would 
be really odd if there was a flu epidemic but those who survived were 
the ones who didn't get the shot.   Reminds me of a science fiction 
story where the rulers on this distant planet decided it was 
overpopulated and wanted to reduce the population so they said there was 
a big epidemic coming and told their populace to get vaccinated.  But it 
was actually the vaccine that killed off the populace.

I've read one account of someone who had this flu and said it was 
terrible but survived it.  Other death cases first termed swine flu 
turned out to be regular flu.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

authfriend wrote:
> Heh. Bhairitu's as crazy as the town hall shouters, and
> just as resistant to reason.

You could have responded to my original post with something like "I 
intend to get the flu shot and here's why"  But instead you attacked 
me.  Why do you do that?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer"  wrote:

> I've never had a flu shot and I think I only got the
> flu once bad enough to have to lay low and just read
> a book for a few days. Most years I don't get sick
> at all, and if I do get a mild something or other
> after the sleep deprivation and crowds of an Amma
> event, it's usually not bad enough that I can't work
> or do normal things.

Yebbut...that you've been sick with flu only once before
doesn't tell you anything about whether you'll get it
again--especially the current swine flu, which is new
and different, so people don't have antibodies to it.

(And if you're able to work and do normal things, that
probably isn't the flu anyway, of any type.)

The real point is, though, that even if you're not
worried about catching the flu yourself, you should
get the shot; because if you do catch it, you can
spread it to other people who haven't had the shot
(even before you actually start having symptoms), and
who may be more vulnerable to getting *very* sick
if they catch it. You wouldn't just be protecting
yourself, in other words.

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of raunchydog
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 4:55 PM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu
Vaccination?
 
  
I always get mild flu-like symptoms for a few days after I get a flu shot.
I'm sensitive to any medication, so I avoid it whenever possible. I allow
myself to get a flu shot every two or three years and wonder if I'm playing
Russian roulette on years I decide against it. I'm definitely getting a flu
shot this year. I think we're going to see a doozy of a flu season this
year, so I recommend that everyone get a shot.

I work at a hospital and they strongly encourage us to get a free flu shot
for hospital employees every year. When I don't take a shot I always get a
form letter asking me to explain why. I don't think it's any of their
business, but I understand they operate by the numbers and probably have
statistical reports they have to fill out for the government. If we have a
pandemic in the US, odds are we will, and a lot of people start showing up
at the hospital for treatment, I don't want to get sick. Judy is correct,
the more people we can protect with a flu shot the more likely we will avoid
a pandemic.
Gotta go. Dome time. 
I've never had a flu shot and I think I only got the flu once bad enough to
have to lay low and just read a book for a few days. Most years I don't get
sick at all, and if I do get a mild something or other after the sleep
deprivation and crowds of an Amma event, it's usually not bad enough that I
can't work or do normal things.
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >
> > authfriend wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> > >   
> > >> Don't be ridiculous.  It is not about me being macho
> > >> but about putting things in my body I don't want.  Do
> > >> you let the government just put whatever they want in
> > >> your body?
> > >
> > > You tell me, "Don't be ridiculous," and then you ask an
> > > inane question like that??
> > >
> > > If the government has something that will make it less
> > > likely that I'll get the flu and thus less likely that
> > > I'll pass it on to somebody else, I'll INSIST that the
> > > government put it in my body.
> > 
> > There's nothing inane about that question even if you
> > label it so which then makes it even less inane.  You've
> > shown us that you are a sheeple anxious to march in step
> > with big government.  How Nazi-like of you, Judy.
> > Those checks from Langley must come in very handy at
> > your age.
> 
> Oh please...with the Nazis and CIA. Next thing we know
> you'll accuse Judy of planting a cybug in your computer
> to make sure you get a flu shot.
> 
> http://snipurl.com/qsqyj

Heh. Bhairitu's as crazy as the town hall shouters, and
just as resistant to reason.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

raunchydog wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>   
>> authfriend wrote:
>> 
>>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
 Don't be ridiculous.  It is not about me being macho
 but about putting things in my body I don't want.  Do
 you let the government just put whatever they want in
 your body?
 
 
>>> You tell me, "Don't be ridiculous," and then you ask an
>>> inane question like that??
>>>
>>> If the government has something that will make it less
>>> likely that I'll get the flu and thus less likely that
>>> I'll pass it on to somebody else, I'll INSIST that the
>>> government put it in my body.
>>>   
>>>   
>> There's nothing inane about that question even if you label it so which 
>> then makes it even less inane.  You've shown us that you are a sheeple 
>> anxious to march in step with big government.  How Nazi-like of you, 
>> Judy.   Those checks from Langley must come in very handy at your age.
>>
>> 
>
> Oh please...with the Nazis and CIA. Next thing we know you'll accuse Judy of 
> planting a cybug in your computer to make sure you get a flu shot.
>
> http://snipurl.com/qsqyj

Great! Send one over.  I'd like to reverse engineer it.  :-D

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[raunchydog]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> authfriend wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >   
> >> Don't be ridiculous.  It is not about me being macho
> >> but about putting things in my body I don't want.  Do
> >> you let the government just put whatever they want in
> >> your body?
> >> 
> >
> > You tell me, "Don't be ridiculous," and then you ask an
> > inane question like that??
> >
> > If the government has something that will make it less
> > likely that I'll get the flu and thus less likely that
> > I'll pass it on to somebody else, I'll INSIST that the
> > government put it in my body.
> >   
> 
> There's nothing inane about that question even if you label it so which 
> then makes it even less inane.  You've shown us that you are a sheeple 
> anxious to march in step with big government.  How Nazi-like of you, 
> Judy.   Those checks from Langley must come in very handy at your age.
>

Oh please...with the Nazis and CIA. Next thing we know you'll accuse Judy of 
planting a cybug in your computer to make sure you get a flu shot.

http://snipurl.com/qsqyj

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

authfriend wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>   
>> Don't be ridiculous.  It is not about me being macho
>> but about putting things in my body I don't want.  Do
>> you let the government just put whatever they want in
>> your body?
>> 
>
> You tell me, "Don't be ridiculous," and then you ask an
> inane question like that??
>
> If the government has something that will make it less
> likely that I'll get the flu and thus less likely that
> I'll pass it on to somebody else, I'll INSIST that the
> government put it in my body.
>   

There's nothing inane about that question even if you label it so which 
then makes it even less inane.  You've shown us that you are a sheeple 
anxious to march in step with big government.  How Nazi-like of you, 
Judy.   Those checks from Langley must come in very handy at your age.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "nelsonriddle2001"  
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> > >
> > > Don't be ridiculous.  It is not about me being macho
> > > but about putting things in my body I don't want.  Do
> > > you let the government just put whatever they want in
> > > your body?
> > 
> > You tell me, "Don't be ridiculous," and then you ask an
> > inane question like that??
> > 
> > If the government has something that will make it less
> > likely that I'll get the flu and thus less likely that
> > I'll pass it on to somebody else, I'll INSIST that the
> > government put it in my body.
> > 
> > 
> > > The vaccine won't be tested enough on humans and we won't
> > > know the long range effects.   You really trust Big Pharma?
> > > Here's what happened in 1976 (60 Minutes report):
> > 
> > The big problem in 1976 was that the gummint jumped
> > the gun and started mass immunizations before it was
> > clear they were needed, not that there was something
> > horribly wrong with the vaccine. (There was *far*
> > less evidence of a pandemic then than there is now.)
> > 
> > There was an increased risk of Guillain-Barre with
> > the vaccine, but the disease is so rare in the first
> > place that it didn't amount to a huge threat. If the
> > flu had turned out to be as bad as was initially
> > feared, it would have far outweighed the danger of
> > G-B. The tragedy is that the vaccine wasn't needed
> > in the first place.
> > snip,,
> > 
> > We don't know yet if it's going to mutate into something
> > more virulent (i.e., that makes people sicker) this fall.
> > There's a good chance it will. If it does, and people don't
> > get their shots, we'll be in big trouble.
> >
>   If there is a mutated version and, given the lead
> time to make new shots available, will the present
> program be of much help?

Lot of different ways it could mutate; it depends on
whether the mutation changes the structure of the
virus so that the antibodies the body produces in
response to the vaccine no longer recognize it. It
could mutate to become more virulent--cause more
severe illness--but that wouldn't necessarily require
a new vaccine. Ditto if it became more contagious.

>Is it possible that it might be a "designer" virus
> to sell cures for like cars that dont last too long
> and, the answer is more new cars.

Anything is possible. Is it likely? Of course not. It's
the nature of flu virus to mutate; it's been doing that
for a very long time, since well before it was possible
to "design" viruses. We know it's been doing that from
the observation that people can get it more than once
(unlike, say, chicken pox).

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[nelsonriddle2001]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >
> > Don't be ridiculous.  It is not about me being macho
> > but about putting things in my body I don't want.  Do
> > you let the government just put whatever they want in
> > your body?
> 
> You tell me, "Don't be ridiculous," and then you ask an
> inane question like that??
> 
> If the government has something that will make it less
> likely that I'll get the flu and thus less likely that
> I'll pass it on to somebody else, I'll INSIST that the
> government put it in my body.
> 
> 
> > The vaccine won't be tested enough on humans and we won't
> > know the long range effects.   You really trust Big Pharma?
> > Here's what happened in 1976 (60 Minutes report):
> 
> The big problem in 1976 was that the gummint jumped
> the gun and started mass immunizations before it was
> clear they were needed, not that there was something
> horribly wrong with the vaccine. (There was *far*
> less evidence of a pandemic then than there is now.)
> 
> There was an increased risk of Guillain-Barre with
> the vaccine, but the disease is so rare in the first
> place that it didn't amount to a huge threat. If the
> flu had turned out to be as bad as was initially
> feared, it would have far outweighed the danger of
> G-B. The tragedy is that the vaccine wasn't needed
> in the first place.
> snip,,
> 
> We don't know yet if it's going to mutate into something
> more virulent (i.e., that makes people sicker) this fall.
> There's a good chance it will. If it does, and people don't
> get their shots, we'll be in big trouble.
>
  If there is a mutated version and, given the lead time to make new shots 
available, will the present program be of much help?
   Is it possible that it might be a "designer" virus to sell cures for like 
cars that dont last too long and, the answer is more new cars.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "raunchydog"  wrote:
>
> I always get mild flu-like symptoms for a few days
> after I get a flu shot. I'm sensitive to any medication,
> so I avoid it whenever possible. I allow myself to get
> a flu shot every two or three years and wonder if I'm
> playing Russian roulette on years I decide against it.
> I'm definitely getting a flu shot this year. I think
> we're going to see a doozy of a flu season this year,
> so I recommend that everyone get a shot.

Thing is, you're going to need three--two for swine flu,
and one for the seasonal flu. The swine flu shots won't
be ready for the general public as soon as the seasonal
vaccine, unfortunately, but health-care practitioners will
supposedly to be able to get them earlier.

If we have a bad wave of the swine flu, it'll be *really*
important for practitioners not to get sick or there
won't be enough of them able to treat the people who do.

> I work at a hospital and they strongly encourage us to
> get a free flu shot for hospital employees every year.

IMO, they should *require* anybody who works at a 
hospital to get vaccinated, because they'll have more
exposure to flu from the patients that come in with it,
and if they become infected, they can spread it to
vulnerable patients who are there for other reasons.

> When I don't take a shot I always get a form letter
> asking me to explain why. I don't think it's any of
> their business, but I understand they operate by the
> numbers and probably have statistical reports they
> have to fill out for the government. If we have a
> pandemic in the US, odds are we will, and a lot of
> people start showing up at the hospital for treatment,
> I don't want to get sick. Judy is correct, the more
> people we can protect with a flu shot the more likely
> we will avoid a pandemic.

For the record, there already *is* a pandemic. The
question is how bad it'll be when the next wave hits
in the fall. Typically the second wave is worse than
the first. We just have to hope it won't have mutated
into something really lethal.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[raunchydog]

I always get mild flu-like symptoms for a few days after I get a flu shot. I'm 
sensitive to any medication, so I avoid it whenever possible. I allow myself to 
get a flu shot every two or three years and wonder if I'm playing Russian 
roulette on years I decide against it. I'm definitely getting a flu shot this 
year. I think we're going to see a doozy of a flu season this year, so I 
recommend that everyone get a shot.

I work at a hospital and they strongly encourage us to get a free flu shot for 
hospital employees every year. When I don't take a shot I always get a form 
letter asking me to explain why. I don't think it's any of their business, but 
I understand they operate by the numbers and probably have statistical reports 
they have to fill out for the government. If we have a pandemic in the US, odds 
are we will, and a lot of people start showing up at the hospital for 
treatment, I don't want to get sick. Judy is correct, the more people we can 
protect with a flu shot the more likely we will avoid a pandemic.
Gotta go. Dome time. 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
> >
> > Don't be ridiculous.  It is not about me being macho
> > but about putting things in my body I don't want.  Do
> > you let the government just put whatever they want in
> > your body?
> 
> You tell me, "Don't be ridiculous," and then you ask an
> inane question like that??
> 
> If the government has something that will make it less
> likely that I'll get the flu and thus less likely that
> I'll pass it on to somebody else, I'll INSIST that the
> government put it in my body.
> 
> 
> > The vaccine won't be tested enough on humans and we won't
> > know the long range effects.   You really trust Big Pharma?
> > Here's what happened in 1976 (60 Minutes report):
> 
> The big problem in 1976 was that the gummint jumped
> the gun and started mass immunizations before it was
> clear they were needed, not that there was something
> horribly wrong with the vaccine. (There was *far*
> less evidence of a pandemic then than there is now.)
> 
> There was an increased risk of Guillain-Barre with
> the vaccine, but the disease is so rare in the first
> place that it didn't amount to a huge threat. If the
> flu had turned out to be as bad as was initially
> feared, it would have far outweighed the danger of
> G-B. The tragedy is that the vaccine wasn't needed
> in the first place.
> 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcJt4jX1Vo
> > Glad I didn't get that shot.
> > 
> > So far Swine Flu hasn't killed any more than the regular flu.
> 
> We're going to have both this fall and winter.
> 
> > I never get the regular flu.
> 
> I've had flu only once in my life, back in the late 
> '80s. I still get a flu shot every year, not just to
> protect myself but to protect others.
> 
>   There are all kinds of effective natural means 
> > that will make any flu take a u-turn.
> 
> Well, maybe they will, maybe they won't. But even if
> they do keep you from getting less sick than you'd
> be otherwise, you're still spreading the virus for
> several days before you know you've become infected
> and can start administering your natural means.
> 
> > And I noted something interesting this last winter
> > as I only saw about two people when I was out wheezing 
> > and coughing compared to other years when  is very few
> > compared to other years.
> 
> I can't sort out your garbled syntax here, but how many
> people you saw wheezing and coughing compared to other
> years means ZERO.
> 
> > And I don't go anywhere if I have the slightest symptom
> > of virus because I want to kill it.  Going out and about
> > is not going to help.
> 
> Not only is it not going to help *you*, it's likely to
> harm other people.
> 
> Are you noticing a theme here?
> 
> Even if you don't think you need it, or you're afraid
> of Big Bad Pharma putting stuff in it that has a one-
> in-80,000 chance of making you sick (as in '76), it's
> *selfish* to increase the chances of other people
> getting it from you.
> 
> Statistically, the more people who are vaccinated,
> the fewer people get the flu--not just among those
> who've been vaccinated, but among those who haven't
> been. It's called "herd immunity."
> 
> And again, if you got a flu shot, you'd be less likely
> to come down with it in the first place, and you wouldn't
> have to stay home.
> 
> > But I don't get colds either.
> 
> Nor I.
> 
> > Just don't let yourself get too kapha.
> 
> Oh, please.
> 
> > If they make the vaccination mandatory then you will
> > see more people protesting than you've seen with health
> > care reform.  In fact I doubt if the government will
> > make it mandatory
> 
> I do too. 
> 
>  but may say if you come down with 
> > it they will have the right to quarantine you probably
> > in your own home 
> 
> I hope that's what they do.
> 
> > so no skin off my nose.
> 
> Mine either. But I don't want to get it in the fir

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

P.S.: One of the better blogs about public health
generally and swine flu in particular is:

http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure

The editors are "senior public health scientists
and practitioners. Their names would be immediately
recognizable to many in the public health community.
They prefer to keep their online and public lives
separate to allow maximum freedom of expression."

You're unlikely to get either dire conspiracy
theorizing or bland reassurance from these folks.
They know their onions, and they say what they
think.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> Don't be ridiculous.  It is not about me being macho
> but about putting things in my body I don't want.  Do
> you let the government just put whatever they want in
> your body?

You tell me, "Don't be ridiculous," and then you ask an
inane question like that??

If the government has something that will make it less
likely that I'll get the flu and thus less likely that
I'll pass it on to somebody else, I'll INSIST that the
government put it in my body.


> The vaccine won't be tested enough on humans and we won't
> know the long range effects.   You really trust Big Pharma?
> Here's what happened in 1976 (60 Minutes report):

The big problem in 1976 was that the gummint jumped
the gun and started mass immunizations before it was
clear they were needed, not that there was something
horribly wrong with the vaccine. (There was *far*
less evidence of a pandemic then than there is now.)

There was an increased risk of Guillain-Barre with
the vaccine, but the disease is so rare in the first
place that it didn't amount to a huge threat. If the
flu had turned out to be as bad as was initially
feared, it would have far outweighed the danger of
G-B. The tragedy is that the vaccine wasn't needed
in the first place.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcJt4jX1Vo
> Glad I didn't get that shot.
> 
> So far Swine Flu hasn't killed any more than the regular flu.

We're going to have both this fall and winter.

> I never get the regular flu.

I've had flu only once in my life, back in the late 
'80s. I still get a flu shot every year, not just to
protect myself but to protect others.

  There are all kinds of effective natural means 
> that will make any flu take a u-turn.

Well, maybe they will, maybe they won't. But even if
they do keep you from getting less sick than you'd
be otherwise, you're still spreading the virus for
several days before you know you've become infected
and can start administering your natural means.

> And I noted something interesting this last winter
> as I only saw about two people when I was out wheezing 
> and coughing compared to other years when  is very few
> compared to other years.

I can't sort out your garbled syntax here, but how many
people you saw wheezing and coughing compared to other
years means ZERO.

> And I don't go anywhere if I have the slightest symptom
> of virus because I want to kill it.  Going out and about
> is not going to help.

Not only is it not going to help *you*, it's likely to
harm other people.

Are you noticing a theme here?

Even if you don't think you need it, or you're afraid
of Big Bad Pharma putting stuff in it that has a one-
in-80,000 chance of making you sick (as in '76), it's
*selfish* to increase the chances of other people
getting it from you.

Statistically, the more people who are vaccinated,
the fewer people get the flu--not just among those
who've been vaccinated, but among those who haven't
been. It's called "herd immunity."

And again, if you got a flu shot, you'd be less likely
to come down with it in the first place, and you wouldn't
have to stay home.

> But I don't get colds either.

Nor I.

> Just don't let yourself get too kapha.

Oh, please.

> If they make the vaccination mandatory then you will
> see more people protesting than you've seen with health
> care reform.  In fact I doubt if the government will
> make it mandatory

I do too. 

 but may say if you come down with 
> it they will have the right to quarantine you probably
> in your own home 

I hope that's what they do.

> so no skin off my nose.

Mine either. But I don't want to get it in the first place.
I'm at less risk because of my age (over 65 don't seem as
susceptible) and because I work at home, but if I do get
it, I'm at higher risk for being very sick.

We don't know yet if it's going to mutate into something
more virulent (i.e., that makes people sicker) this fall.
There's a good chance it will. If it does, and people don't
get their shots, we'll be in big trouble.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[Bhairitu]

Don't be ridiculous.  It is not about me being macho but about putting 
things in my body I don't want.  Do you let the government just put 
whatever they want in your body?  I allow the dentist to give me 
Novocaine and the periodontist antibiotics but that's about it.  In 2003 
an oral surgeon gave me Vioxx which made me very vata so I won't take 
that again but then neither will a lot of people after it's side effects 
were discovered.

The vaccine won't be tested enough on humans and we won't know the long 
range effects.   You really trust Big Pharma?  Here's what happened in 
1976 (60 Minutes report):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcJt4jX1Vo
Glad I didn't get that shot.

So far Swine Flu hasn't killed any more than the regular flu.  I never 
get the regular flu.  There are all kinds of effective natural means 
that will make any flu take a u-turn.  And I noted something interesting 
this last winter as I only saw about two people when I was out wheezing 
and coughing compared to other years when  is very few compared to other 
years.  And I don't go anywhere if I have the slightest symptom of virus 
because I want to kill it.  Going out and about is not going to help.  
But I don't get colds either.  Just don't let yourself get too kapha.

If they make the vaccination mandatory then you will see more people 
protesting than you've seen with health care reform.  In fact I doubt if 
the government will make it mandatory but may say if you come down with 
it they will have the right to quarantine you probably in your own home 
so no skin off my nose.

authfriend wrote:
> The vaccine is, of course, being tested in humans. The
> first tests on adults have raised no red flags, so
> testing has now begun in children.
>
> The thing to remember about vaccinations is that they
> not only protect those who have been vaccinated, they
> also protect those who have *not* been vaccinated by
> reducing the amount of the flu virus circulating.
>
> So it may seem all wonderfully macho to refuse to get
> vaccinated, but if you don't, you're contributing to
> the likelihood of other people getting sick.
>
> And BTW, it's *already* a pandemic.
>
> As far as mercury (thimerosal) is concerned, it will
> be used as a preservative in multidose vials of the
> vaccine, but single-dose vials are also being produced,
> and these will be what are used for children (although
> there's zero evidence that thimerosal causes autism).
>
>
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>   
>> Massachusetts is trying to pass a bill that may result in a $1000 a day 
>> fine if you refuse to get the Swine Flu vaccination.  Now we already had 
>> a scare of Swine Flu back in the 1970s and some folks came down with 
>> terrible side effects including paralysis.  Most folks here are into 
>> natural medicine and probably don't want the vaccine.  I've never had a 
>> flu shot and also can't remember the last time I've got the flu.  Like 
>> most yogis here I notice immediately when a bug is trying to invade and 
>> do the usual things to boot it out of my system.  We don't know what is 
>> in these vaccines but they may be using things like mercury.  The 
>> vaccine is also untested on humans.  Do you really want this junk in 
>> your body?  
>>
>> Hopefully this pandemic is nothing but nonsense and will never occur nor 
>> the mass vaccinations.  But it is estimated that at least half of the US 
>> will refuse the vaccination.
>>
>> News report on Massachusetts bill:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_oD55WvDmM
>>
>> 
>
>
>
>   

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[shempmcgurk]

It was during the Ford administration that the last swine flu scare occurred.  
I was at MIU and thinking I was doing the right thing trotted myself off to get 
the vaccination.  I think it was at some gym in town.

I was sick for a week.  The standard response from fellow MIUers?  "Well, 
that's what you get for shooting up eggs."

I have never had a flu shot since that horrible experience.



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> Massachusetts is trying to pass a bill that may result in a $1000 a day 
> fine if you refuse to get the Swine Flu vaccination.  Now we already had 
> a scare of Swine Flu back in the 1970s and some folks came down with 
> terrible side effects including paralysis.  Most folks here are into 
> natural medicine and probably don't want the vaccine.  I've never had a 
> flu shot and also can't remember the last time I've got the flu.  Like 
> most yogis here I notice immediately when a bug is trying to invade and 
> do the usual things to boot it out of my system.  We don't know what is 
> in these vaccines but they may be using things like mercury.  The 
> vaccine is also untested on humans.  Do you really want this junk in 
> your body?  
> 
> Hopefully this pandemic is nothing but nonsense and will never occur nor 
> the mass vaccinations.  But it is estimated that at least half of the US 
> will refuse the vaccination.
> 
> News report on Massachusetts bill:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_oD55WvDmM
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: Should you be forced to get the Swine Flu Vaccination?

[authfriend]

The vaccine is, of course, being tested in humans. The
first tests on adults have raised no red flags, so
testing has now begun in children.

The thing to remember about vaccinations is that they
not only protect those who have been vaccinated, they
also protect those who have *not* been vaccinated by
reducing the amount of the flu virus circulating.

So it may seem all wonderfully macho to refuse to get
vaccinated, but if you don't, you're contributing to
the likelihood of other people getting sick.

And BTW, it's *already* a pandemic.

As far as mercury (thimerosal) is concerned, it will
be used as a preservative in multidose vials of the
vaccine, but single-dose vials are also being produced,
and these will be what are used for children (although
there's zero evidence that thimerosal causes autism).



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu  wrote:
>
> Massachusetts is trying to pass a bill that may result in a $1000 a day 
> fine if you refuse to get the Swine Flu vaccination.  Now we already had 
> a scare of Swine Flu back in the 1970s and some folks came down with 
> terrible side effects including paralysis.  Most folks here are into 
> natural medicine and probably don't want the vaccine.  I've never had a 
> flu shot and also can't remember the last time I've got the flu.  Like 
> most yogis here I notice immediately when a bug is trying to invade and 
> do the usual things to boot it out of my system.  We don't know what is 
> in these vaccines but they may be using things like mercury.  The 
> vaccine is also untested on humans.  Do you really want this junk in 
> your body?  
> 
> Hopefully this pandemic is nothing but nonsense and will never occur nor 
> the mass vaccinations.  But it is estimated that at least half of the US 
> will refuse the vaccination.
> 
> News report on Massachusetts bill:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_oD55WvDmM
>